What a bunch of assholes!

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

*pat pat pat on head*

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I wouldn't mind seeing modern human rights codes tied to some of the extra aid money and loan forgiveness Africa will be receiving soon.

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Would that help get rid of that piece - of - shit Robert Mugabe? Lesbians and gays are "sexual perverts" who are "lower than dogs and pigs", according the President of Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe. Arriving in Britain to attend this weekend's Commonwealth Conference, Mugabe has rejected calls for gay human rights. "We don't believe they (gays) have any rights at all", he said.

Any aid to that bastard would undoubtedly build more palaces and add to his stash in foreign banks.

But an official law against homosexuality? Homosexuals being jailed for having been born?

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I'm not even considering any homophobia of the general population.

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There's more than enough to go around and have plenty left over, Magoo...

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Parliament has adopted a proposal to amend the Constitution so as to criminalize same-sex marriages," Bernard Eceru, a spokesperson for the government told the Ugandan Newspaper. Eceru said that 111 MPs voted in favor of the amendment, 17 against and three abstained.

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Not even remotely close... But here's where I place a LOT of the blame:

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Uganda's Anglican Church is one of the leaders of the conservative movement in that faith that has been threatening a schism over the election of a gay bishop in the United States.

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It's nice to see Uganda getting guidance from it's former colonial masters, though.

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Gay sex is already illegal in Uganda. Hundreds of gays and lesbians have fled the country. Many have sought refuge in the United Kingdom but have often been denied refugee status and returned home.

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To prison, one assumes. Gawd, it'd be nice to overthrow Blair and make Peter Tatchell the new PM. (Or Ken Livingston, for that matter.)

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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I wouldn't mind seeing modern human rights codes tied to some of the extra aid money and loan forgiveness Africa will be receiving soon.

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But an official law against homosexuality?

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Yes, it's inexcusable that Uganda is persecuting sexual minorities, as do many other developed and poor countries. The suggestion that we should just cut off all foreign aid -- possibly resulting in the discontinuance of useful agricultural, educational and health programs -- on the basis of some imaginary First World consensus on LGB equality is just a fantasy. It's comparing the best of the West to the worst of Africa (or Islam, or Pakistan, or whatever Third World author of human rights abuse) to imagine that Western governments are nobler than they really are, and that African governments are worse.

[thread drift]
In fact, USAID is conditioning its Uganda HIV/AIDS prevention money on the Uganda government replacing its previous, highly successful comprehensive HIV/AIDS prevention strategy (sex education, condom distribution, free voluntary testing, treatment) with abstinence "education". See this Human Rights Watch report. That's right: USAID is funding programs that discourage condom use in countries with a high prevalence of HIV. These programs teach students and others that condoms have microscopic pores that HIV can get through, and that condoms are only suitable for "high risk populations, such as prostitutes" [see the full text of the HRW report -- the link is on that page]. Meanwhile, at the behest of the Christian right, the US has cut off all family planning funds to the UNFPA. Really, it's passing strange to think that the current US administration has anything useful to teach Africans about sexual and reproductive autonomy.[/thread drift]

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: puzzlic ]

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Riiight. We're so superior in the "modern" West.

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Do you condemn slavery? Female circumcision? Bride burning? Honour killing?

I do. And also laws against homosexuality. If that makes me look as though I feel "superior" then that's a risk I'll take.

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Many other Western countries still have laws on the books that criminalize same-sex sex. And you think the liberated West is going to condition its aid to Uganda on decriminalizing same-sex relationships? Dream on.

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Do you condemn slavery? Female circumcision? Bride burning? Honour killing?
I do. And also laws against homosexuality. If that makes me look as though I feel "superior" then that's a risk I'll take.

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I feel quite comfortable condemning those and other human rights abuses, whether they occur in Canada, the US or abroad. I also feel pretty comfortable criticizing North Americans who seize myopically on human rights abuses that occur in foreign countries in order to reassure themselves that their own culture is superior.

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Right on, puzzlic.

Mr Magoo, maybe one day it will hit you: the problem in these discussions often becomes ... attitude.

If it were possible to believe that any of the ritual denouncers actually had a commitment and a practical plan to address these abuses in other nations, then maybe we could focus on those.

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Do you realize that all these abuses except bride burning also occurred in North America until quite recent times?

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I'm not aware that Canada has ever sanctioned any of these. Were we not the end of the Underground railway? Anyway, moot point. Do you condemn them or don't you? Or do you have some kind of wishy-washy condemnation wherein you somehow manage to condemn them, without in any way suggesting that they're wrong (which would imply your superiority in being right)?

Sorry, but I don't see how you can say something is wrong, morally, without suggesting that you yourself are right, morally. And please understand, I'm not comparing populations, I'm comparing states. I'm not suggesting that the population of Uganda has to be "onside" with anything. I'm suggesting that the state of Uganda, which has apparently made a law that makes it illegal to be born gay, could change that law.

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I also feel pretty comfortable criticizing North Americans who seize myopically on human rights abuses that occur in foreign countries in order to reassure themselves that their own culture is superior.

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Well, I'll remember not to do that then!

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I wouldn't mind seeing modern human rights codes tied to some of the extra aid money and loan forgiveness Africa will be receiving soon.

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While I don't agree with this, I believe that's one of the parameters of the Government of Canada's aid, at least for equality between men and women (although, if it's going to be there at all, it should probably be more inclusively framed).

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Do you condemn them or don't you? Or do you have some kind of wishy-washy condemnation wherein you somehow manage to condemn them, without in any way suggesting that they're wrong (which would imply your superiority in being right)?

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I don't accept that if I condemn these things I must think I am superior to Africans, whether morally or in any other way. Indeed, I *am* an African -- my mother is from Tanzania.

Skdadl -- right on!

Mr. Magoo said:

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I'm not aware that Canada has ever sanctioned any of these.

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I'm not sure why most Canadians believe there was never any slavery in Canada. I don't hold it against you, Magoo: clearly, it is a deficiency of the Canadian educational system. If you're interested, here's a link to start off your research: Slavery in Canada You can get quite a start just by googling "Slavery in Canada".

In North America in the nineteenth century, clitoral excision was accepted as a medical treatment for hysteria, hypersexuality and masturbation in women.

Slavery and bride burning, as far as I know, are not legally sanctioned in any country in the world, including the countries in which it occurs. Honour killings continue to be were sanctioned, to some extent, by Canadian, US and many other countries' laws in the form of the "provocation" defence, which served largely to acquit men, or reduce their penalties, if they killed their wives because they suspected adultery. As in Canada and the US, many countries in the West, Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere have passed laws to criminalize honour killings or repealed laws that permit it.

As for female genital mutilation, the reason it has been banned in most countries in which it occurs (and, contrary to popular belief, female circumcision is not traditional in all African or all sub-Saharan African countries or cultures) is not because North Americans have touted their "superior" non-circumcising tradition on lefty bulletin boards. (Indeed, the defence of such abusive traditions has been reinforced by the racist manner in which much Western opposition to FGM has been presented -- such opposition has hindered, not helped, the abolition process.) Abolition of FGM has happened because African feminists and other women concerned for the health of women and girls have lobbied and pressured their governments to ban it, and have, through hard work and persuasion, brought legislators and public opinion around to their side. Much the way Western women have gained fundamental rights and freedoms, no?

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it might save some lives and restore a tiny scrap of dignity to one tenth of Uganda.

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[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: puzzlic ]

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In North America in the nineteenth century, clitoral excision was accepted as a medical treatment for hysteria, hypersexuality and masturbation in women.

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In the 19th century? Get real. This was also widespread in the latter half of the 20th century.

Edited to add: See Robert Whitaker's "Mad in America."

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: EFA ]

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Believe it or not, it is possible for someone to hate human rights abuses without agreeing with you that you are superior and, by necessary extension, Africans are inferior.

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I believe that offering all humans the right to legally exist is most definitely superior to persecuting (and prosecuting) some of them for a choice they never made.

I have not said that North Americans (or just I) are "superior to" Africans.

You're doing your level best to turn this into some kind of ethnocentric arrogance, aren't you?

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In North America in the nineteenth century, clitoral excision was accepted as a medical treatment for hysteria, hypersexuality and masturbation in women.

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Interesting. That would be right around the time the germ theory of disease was starting to replace "foul humours" and the like, no?

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I'm not sure why most Canadians believe there was never any slavery in Canada.

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Because "Canada" has only existed since 1867. Clearly, however, there has been slavery on what is now Canadian soil, as recently as 200 years ago.

I don't know that this shameful tidbit of history makes it inappropriate for me to condemn slavery that's happening right now.

Am I superior, morally, to someone who believes they can own another human being? I think so. If not, then on what grounds would I be criticizing them?

This does not mean I believe I'm "superior" to their entire nation or continent. But if the choice to not enslave humans isn't superior to the choice to enslave them, hadn't I better just back way off and let them do as they wish?

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I'm not sure that either posting our views here nor "feeling superior" saves anyone's life or restores anyone's dignity in Uganda.

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Agreed.

That's why I suggested making gifts of money or debt forgiveness contingent on changing one little law. Will it fill the sky with rainbows? Maybe not, but it's a start.

I'm pretty sure this is what puzzlic was getting at when she suggested supporting a group that is already working for those rights within Uganda rather than denying African people aid or debt relief unless their governments comply with international human rights law.

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

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Originally posted by argentia:

Would that help get rid of that piece - of - shit Robert Mugabe? Lesbians and gays are "sexual perverts" who are "lower than dogs and pigs", according the President of Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe. Arriving in Britain to attend this weekend's Commonwealth Conference, Mugabe has rejected calls for gay human rights. "We don't believe they (gays) have any rights at all", he said.

Any aid to that bastard would undoubtedly build more palaces and add to his stash in foreign banks.

In order to aid Zimbabwe's people, a way must be found around that moronic lunatic. Perhaps he will just die soon.

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Fuck Mugabe! One second the asshole jerks off to Stalin's corpse...The next he uses the Bible -- brough to Africa by the 33v1l!!!111!111!`-` Europan colonisers -- to justify the mass persecution of gays in Zimbabwe...Green Left -- Voice of the anti-authoritarian left (the authoritarian left is our enemy and must be dealt with as ruthlessly as the right) -- supports the MDC, so obviously they're the good guys...

[ 09 July 2005: Message edited by: Betray My Secrets ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Of 12 major wars in Africa, the CIA has been involved in 11 of them.

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Amnesty International has voiced concern about what it calls the "on-going intimidation" of lesbian and gay rights activists in Uganda. 

It says that attacks on gays have increased since the July vote in Parliament to amend the constitution to provide prison time for same-sex couples who marry.

Amnesty said that Victor Juliet Mukasa, Chair of Sexual Minorities Uganda, fears for her safety after her house was raided on the night of 20 July 2005.

Local government officials in a suburb of the capital city, Kampala, entered her house in her absence and seized documents and other material, apparently looking for "incriminating evidence" relating to the activities of her organization. No search warrant was produced even though Mukasa asked for one to be produced, Amnesty said.

Sexual Minorities Uganda, or SMUG, has a long history of advocating for the rights of the LGBT community in Uganda.

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In February, the Ugandan Media Council banned the play "The Vagina Monologues" by the American playwright Eve Ensler, which several women's organizations planned to stage to mark V-Day ­ a day of awareness-raising about violence against women. The council found that the play "prominently promotes and glorifies acts of unnatural sex¾or homosexuality."

Last October, a radio station was compelled to pay a fine for hosting a live talk show with sexual rights activists discussing discrimination against members of the LGBT community in Uganda and their need for HIV/AIDS services. 

The Broadcasting Council imposed a fine of approximately one thousand US dollars, claiming that the program was "contrary to public morality" and breached existing laws. 

In November the government warned the United Nations joint program on HIV/AIDS that it risks being thrown out of the country if it offers AIDS education to gays.

Following these incidents, security officials continued to harass the LGBT community, causing gay rights activists at one of the main universities to fear for their personal safety.

Amnesty on Tuesday called on the government to respect and to ensure the rights of all members of the LGBT community on its territory.

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