quote:

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It's true, there is no legal compulsion to force physicians with ethical issues to perform abortions, and if there were that would be wrong. There is, however, something very wrong with a pro-choice physician providing misleading information to women looking to terminate a pregnancy, misinformation that leads to a delay or a loss of access to services, or an unwanted birth. That is morally, ethically wrong.

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I'm assuming because of your bias on abortion you meant to say prolife physician?

It is wrong for any physician to give misleading, inaccurate or intentionally flawed about a medical procedure. If Audra's information is correct that a physician said the procedure wasn't legal - and honestly I don't believe someone said that though I think Audra is saying the truth of what she heard - then they should have a review of their ability to practice. A physician does have the right to say "That's not something I can help you with" and not refer - no right to lie though.

I agree that both prolife and prochoice doctors should not give inaccurate information to further their cause.

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I really fail to see the logic in that. Is he now forever tainted because he perform abortions, and you don't want something so dirty examining you? .... I find it very uncomfortable that you would do something like that.

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I do not want to be examined by someone who performs abortions. One reason is that I would have diminished confidence in their ability to treat my pregnancy as I feel it deserves. If someone is able to terminate the pregnancy of another mother on an "on demand" basis that suggests to me that they see the inherent worth and value of the unborn much differently than I do. They see a fetus very differently and believe it's survival should only be supported if the mother recognizes the worth and value of the pregnancy. A doctor able to perform an abortion ascribes value to my pregnancyonly based strictly on MY feelings and emotions. It is not because they believe in the intrinsic worth of the unborn. There is a pretty strong possibility that the physician who is prochoice sees the unborn as a parasite. Why should I want someone bringing that perspective to treat me?

I am having a high risk pregnancy, unfortunately, and if the specialist doesn't believe in the inherent worth and value of the babes then I don't want him to oversee my care or make any clinical decisions.

Secondly, I would just be uncomfortable I have difficulty enough with the intrusiveness of prenatal care without adding that dynamic.

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Honestly, what other things that you don't agree with, would you try to boycott somebody for? Sexual preference? Religious observances? Ethnicity? Political leanings? I don't mean to imply that you would discriminate what doctors you would allow to treat you on any of those basis, but I do see them as being on the same level.

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If their sexual preference, their religion, their ethnic background, or their politics meant that they regarded the unborn as expendable, sub-human or parasites then I would choose to go elsewhere. Fortunately, I know of no religion, sexual preference, or political party that automatically perceives things in that late. There is diversity in all of those communities on abortion.

I also believe that there are women on babble that would utilize the services of a prochoice physician rather than an ardent prolife physician. Would that be something you'd criticize?

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Having had the misfortune, years ago, of being personally involved in one of the agonizing discussions referenced above, about whether to have an abortion, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It was wrenching and painful for me, and much worse for my partner of the time

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I wouldn't wish it on anyone either. I believe that no matter what you decide it is life changing.

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We really need to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as we can through other means. Anyone who considers themselves 'anti-abortion', but does not support and actively campaign for thorough, honest and mandatory sex-education classes in school is courting disaster. Contraceptions should be available to everyone who wants it, free if possible.

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I agree that preventing untimely pregnancies and having couples prepared for the inclusion of a child(ren) in their lives is key to this whole debate. I believe that we need an environment that offers persons the best possible information on human sexuality which includes a discussion of all methods of birth control as well as abstinence. I believe in free contraception despite my own belief that birth control is wrong *for me*.

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Successive generations of parents resist informing their kids about the realities of sex, creating a big mystery, into which most adolescents wander with little or no information. Then, if anything happens, judgement and condemnation result, even today. It's a stupid conundrum, and based (IMO) on people being afraid of sex.

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Partly but I also think that age is ripe for problems because of impulsivity and poor judgement

[ 25 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

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Successive generations of parents resist informing their kids about the realities of sex, creating a big mystery, into which most adolescents wander with little or no information. Then, if anything happens, judgement and condemnation result, even today. It's a stupid conundrum, and based (IMO) on people being afraid of sex.
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Partly but I also think that age is ripe for problems because of impulsivity and poor judgement

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i think it's a combination of both. teens today, i have found, are woefully uninformed. As noted above, many parents aren't willing to teach their kids about sex and leave it to the school or for the kids to figure out. this is, imo, a bad idea. my school hardly taught us anything about safe sex. they just told us that we should keep it in our pants til marriage. and letting kids figure it out on their own can go either way: they can find out the hard way by getting pregnant or an std or they can research birth control and pregnancy (my method of choice). of course here's where the impulsivity and poor judgement comes in. many teens believe that it can't happen to them. many believe various urban legends ("you can't get preg on your period" "if you have sex in your underwear you won't get preg" "you can't get preg your first time" etc...) they run head on into sex without being aware of the consequences and when it comes to dealing with them, they're out in the cold. some of them can't find the strength to say "no" or fold to peer pressure. and i know how hard saying "no" can be...i've had to do it and it was incredibly hard, but i'm not sorry i was able to say "no". of course another problem is that i think there's sort of a stigma surrounding virgins. for guys at least, the attitude seems to be that you're not a man til you've had sex. luckily, though, it also appears that this attitude is starting to fade. so, i have to say that teen sex problems is a combination of many things, such as a general lack of info, a feeling of taboo, society, and impulsivness/ "it can't happen to me".

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As noted above, many parents aren't willing to teach their kids about sex and leave it to the school or for the kids to figure out. this is, imo, a bad idea. my school hardly taught us anything about safe sex. they just told us that we should keep it in our pants til marriage. and letting kids figure it out on their own can go either way: they can find out the hard way by getting pregnant or an std or they can research birth control and pregnancy (my method of choice).

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Without question it's a bit of both. Didn't mean to try to be capturing such a vast issue in 1-2 sentences. It sounds like the message you got around abstinence was very incomplete if that was the extent of the message. I think it should be more broadly discussed and in more depth. As well I don't have a problem if contraception is discussed. I personally feel that sex education classes have not met needs for a variety of reasons.

and that was pretty much the curriculum!

personally, i think they should teach us about birth control. some say it makes teens want to have sex out of marriage. maybe so, but at least they're more likely to be safe. my mom taught me about periods and how one gets pregnant. she didn't teach me about birth control though. i had to find that info on my own.

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One reason is that I would have diminished confidence in their ability to treat my pregnancy as I feel it deserves. If someone is able to terminate the pregnancy of another mother on an "on demand" basis that suggests to me that they see the inherent worth and value of the unborn much differently than I do.

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I would imagine that any doctor you'd ever find would see the inherent worth and value of many things differently than you do. I think the only way around that would be to be your own doctor. Unless you had more concrete evidence that the treatment you would receive would adversely affected by their personal views. For example like Audra's example of a physician telling a patient that an abortion is illegal. I would avoid that doctor, not because they are pro life, but because they put their own agenda ahead of the patient.

I know for somebody who is a Jehova's Witness, their religion forbids them from having a blood transfusion. Do you think it would make sense, or being reasonable, for them to refuse to see a physican who would perform a blood transfusion, because they hold a different worth or value of blood than the patient?

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I also believe that there are women on babble that would utilize the services of a prochoice physician rather than an ardent prolife physician. Would that be something you'd criticize?

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If it was solely due to their being pro-life, then yes I would. I would probably say something very similar to what I said to you, that I fail to see logic in their reasoning, and that I am uneasy that they would do something like that. Obviously if they are seeing a physical for abortion services, there is a logical rationale behind seeing a pro-choice physician over a pro-life physician.

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Originally posted by Raos:
Wow, it seems I went through the platinum plan sex ed. I had sex ed from...well, I can't remember exactly, but I know we started sex ed in grade 4 at the latest, and had it right through until the end of high school. Our curriculum covered STD's, safe sex, family planning, more forms of birth control than you can shake a stick at, which prevent STD's and pregnancy, which only prevent pregnancy, the failure rates of each, the problems associated with each, the failure rate for each, why doubling up on contraceptives makes it safer, permanent alternatives for each sex, the physiology of each sex, what is inappropriate and sexist language, how to deal with peer pressure, where to go if we have problems. It would seem like everything under the sun compared to other curriculum.

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well, my sex ed teacher taught us 5 things:
1) girls who have sex before marriage are BAD
2) condoms don't work
3) other forms of birth control don't work
4) abortion is bad (she was not supposed to favor either side of the debate)
5) she'd show us a pic of a guy with karposi's sarcoma and tell us that that's what happens when you have sex out of wedlock.
and that was pretty much the curriculum!

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Was this a public school?

#1 - I wouldn't agree with that being touched
#2 - Depends on the context.
#3 - Depends on the context.
#4 - Naturally, I would agree with that. I would not consent to that being presented to my child
#5 -Depends on the context

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personally, i think they should teach us about birth control. some say it makes teens want to have sex out of marriage. maybe so, but at least they're more likely to be safe.

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I don't believe it enhances the likelihood of premarital sex. Sex education MIGHT depending on how it's done but birth control? If well done it's just information.

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I would imagine that any doctor you'd ever find would see the inherent worth and value of many things differently than you do. I think the only way around that would be to be your own doctor. Unless you had more concrete evidence that the treatment you would receive would adversely affected by their personal views. For example like Audra's example of a physician telling a patient that an abortion is illegal. I would avoid

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I can't imagine entrusting the pregnancy to someone who doesn't recognize the inherent worth and value of the unborn. That, for me, would be a major concession. I believe the fact that I have a high risk pregnancy along with the already obvious belief that the unborn is expendable depending on the emotions of the mother is a bad combination. In a critical situation I would want someone who would act as I would want them to - not in a way that reflected that a pregnancy was disposable.

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If it was solely due to their being pro-life, then yes I would. I would probably say something very similar to what I said to you,

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Was this a public school?

#1 - I wouldn't agree with that being touched
#2 - Depends on the context.
#3 - Depends on the context.
#4 - Naturally, I would agree with that. I would not consent to that being presented to my child
#5 -Depends on the context

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yep...the only private schools in my area were (a) religious (my mom's atheist, so obviously she wouldn't put me there) or (b) very very expensive. my school wasn't bad for education overall though. we're known for that in our area. and now for my response to your list:

#1: i couldn't beleive she said that. i was shocked.
#2: she just said they were ineffective
#3: ditto #2
#4: they were supposed to address it as a way to deal with pregnancy. they weren't supposed to plug it or condemn it. our teacher heavily condemned it. they also addressed keeping the baby and raising it as well as adoption. however, the abortion is what sticks out in my mind, jsut b/c of how it was handled.
#5: she was using it as a fear tactic. she did that with other stds too.

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I don't believe it enhances the likelihood of premarital sex. Sex education MIGHT depending on how it's done but birth control? If well done it's just information.

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Useful.
My sister wanted to get married.
Our father said no.
My sister said I will get pregnant if you don't let me get married.
Our father still said no.
My sister got pregnant and got married.

Bowie Pregnancy Clinic Vandalized

Jan 24, 2005 6:00 pm US/Eastern
Bowie, MD. (AP) The director of a Bowie pregnancy clinic says someone vandalized the clinic on Saturday -- the 32nd anniversary
of the Row versus Wade decision legalizing abortion.

Executive Director Pamela Palumbo says vandals smashed windows and spray-painted pro-choice graffiti at the Bowie-Crofton Pregnancy Clinic on Northview Drive.

The nonprofit volunteer clinic provides intervention and prevention education, pregnancy counseling and sonograms to women.

Palumbo says more than half of the windows were shattered. The sidewalks and brick walls were spray-painted with words like "Choice" and "Womyn haters" and the anarchy symbol.

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4) abortion is bad (she was not supposed to favor either side of the debate)

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#4 - Naturally, I would agree with that. I would not consent to that being presented to my child

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You would not consent to having information presented to your child so that they could make the decision for themself?

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I can't imagine entrusting the pregnancy to someone who doesn't recognize the inherent worth and value of the unborn.

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What I don't understand is how you've come to the conclusion that the doctor's views on abortion would change how they treat you and your unborn child. In most cases, I think professions, from doctors to hair dressers, understand that every case is unique, and treat each case individually. If I may extend the hair dresser analogy, you might place large importance on your hair. Just because a hair dresser has shaved somebody else's head before, when they asked to have their head shaved, doesn't mean you need to fear for your hair, and believe that the hair dresser places no value on your hair, because they shaved somebody else's.

In the same vein, I don't see how your pregnancy being high risk would have anything to do with the personal beliefs of the doctor. I'm not asking for any specifics, because that is certainly your private information, but the only possible way I can see it having any effect is that it is more likely that a critical situation where the viability of the fetus will be called into question will arise. I do think, though, that if you informed the doctor of the value you place on your unborn child, and that the health and safety of that fetus is of paramount concern, I don't think that they would act any differently than a pro-life physician if a problem did arise. If you had any information to support the idea that the physician would act different, and contrary to your wishes if a situation did arise, then I would think that you are fully justified in wanting a different physician.

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LOL!!! yes you did!!! geez...i wish my school had taught us all of that!!! 'course part of the problem here in the US is that the gov has proclaimed that if a state doesn't do abstinence only sex ed, they won't get funding. and many states, such as TN, are cash strapped and can't afford to say no. so, even if they think it best to teach us about birth control and stds, their hands are tied.

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I guess I kind of took my sex ed for granted. I completely believed that that was the norm for sex ed in western society.

Ahh, good old witholding funding for non-compliance. If the Alberta government can teach anybody anything (and in this instance it shouldn't) its that federal governments are inneffective, don't withold funding for non-compliance when they say will, and that whining about not getting enough, and then trying to bite the hand that's not giving you enough, and then whining and throwing a temper-tantrum, and then calling everybody mean names may not get you more, but it does get you re-elected over and over and over and over. . . and with large majorities to boot!

Edited to add:

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Hailey do you condem this act of violence by pro-life peoples?

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Umm... are you sure that was done by pro-life people? The article never said whether the clinic performs abortions or not, and why would pro-life people spraypaint "Choice" and "Womyn hates"?

Editded again because ShyViolet quoting me just made me realise I left out government after Alberta, and it sounds rather silly without it. (and I can't type correctly)

[ 26 January 2005: Message edited by: Raos ]

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I guess I kind of took my sex ed for granted. I completely believed that that was the norm for sex ed in western society.

Ahh, good old witholding funding for non-compliance. If the Alberta can teach anybody antyhing (and in this instance it shouldn't) its that federal governments are inneffective, don't withold funding for non-compliance when they say will, and that whining about not getting enough, and then trying to bite the hand that's not giving you enough, and then whining and throwing a temper-tantrum, and then calling everybody mean names may not get you more, but it does get you re-elected over and over and over and over. . . and with large majorities to boot!

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HA! i wish it were the norm!! if i ever have a child, i will do my best to educate them about sex, birth control, and stds. i wouldn't be happy if i found out they were having sex as a teen, but i'd rather they be informed and safe than dealing with pregnancy or an std.

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Hailey do you condem this act of violence by pro-life peoples?
Bowie Pregnancy Clinic Vandalized

Jan 24, 2005 6:00 pm US/Eastern
Bowie, MD. (AP) The director of a Bowie pregnancy clinic says someone vandalized the clinic on Saturday -- the 32nd anniversary
of the Row versus Wade decision legalizing abortion.

Executive Director Pamela Palumbo says vandals smashed windows and spray-painted pro-choice graffiti at the Bowie-Crofton Pregnancy Clinic on Northview Drive.

The nonprofit volunteer clinic provides intervention and prevention education, pregnancy counseling and sonograms to women.

Palumbo says more than half of the windows were shattered. The sidewalks and brick walls were spray-painted with words like "Choice" and "Womyn haters" and the anarchy symbol.

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I absolutely condemn this violence by pro choice people. You might want to re-read the article as it's pretty clear that it was against the prolife community.

I can't imagine any prolife activist writing "choice and "WOMYN haters" That's a pretty good hint!

But, seriously, I don't condemn any violence. If it was prolife activists that had vandalized an abortion clinic then I would condemn it as well. That is not an appropriate way to express disagreement.

I am assuming that you will be condemning the pro choice activists for their violence?

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Hailey, I assure you my story was true. There are complaints about doctors doing this sort of thing ALL THE TIME. Another friend of mine, a very well educated brilliant and driven young woman, was fooled by her doctor's receptionist into believing her referral for an abortion had been faxed to the hospital and was waiting for the call. It was only because an abortion provider friend of mine alerted her that if this HAD been the case, she'd have heard already that she knew something was up. She had to call back several times, until she got a different receptionist who said "Oh, the form is right here, it hasn't even been filled in yet."
Doctors and other medical practitioners pull this shit ALL. THE. TIME.

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I wasn't suggesting you were lying. I just was open to the possibility that the same person who had significant enough deficits that they would actually BELIEVE that it was illegal may have had difficulty recalling and re-iterating the information as presented. It sounds like you've had broader experiences and that astounds me. Be bold, be frank - tell someone

no I don't do them and you have to go elsewhere for a referral. You don't lie. That's unethical.

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You would not consent to having information presented to your child so that they could make the decision for themself?

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I had understood that this was information to a class in general I wasn't thinking that they were speaking to an individual patient.

In either example the answer is no.

quote:

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What I don't understand is how you've come to the conclusion that the doctor's views on abortion would change how they treat you and your unborn child.

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They would not treat the unborn that just happen to be in my body as equal persons. They don't accept or believe that so they would only do superficially to patronize me. I would be afraid in an emergency that they would make decisions that someone else would not if they saw unborn life as equal and worthy.

I discussed this very openly with the doctor this week.

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In the same vein, I don't see how your pregnancy being high risk would have anything to do with the personal beliefs of the doctor. I'm not asking for any specifics, because that is certainly your private information, but the only possible way I can see it having any effect is that it is more likely that a critical situation where the viability of the fetus will be called into question will arise. I do think, though, that if you informed the doctor of the value you place on your unborn child, and that the health and safety of that fetus is of paramount concern, I don't think that they would act any differently than a pro-life physician if a problem did arise. If you had any information to support the idea that the physician would act different, and contrary to your wishes if a situation did arise, then I would think that you are fully justified in wanting a different physician.

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It's simply that with complications I have a tendency - and I would imagine it would be common for others in higher risk situations - not to have an easygoing attitude towards pregnancy and childbirth. I spend more time than I should thinking of "what if" scenarios and trying to puzzle my way through to make intelligent decisions. I have a heightened sense of vulnerability, emotions run higher etc. It's just part of the milieu that surrounds the pregnancy. Plus I'm a deeply emotional person. I'm sure this is shocking news!

I simply want to have an already existing confidence level in the doctor and that's shaken by my realizing that the doctor would terminate the pregnancy on a dime upon request.

I have a long discussion with the doctor about the value of the pregnancy and why I was concerned. I actually got about 45 minutes which is to the doctor's credit.

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Umm... are you sure that was done by pro-life people?

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It was prochoice people! It wasn't prolife

quote:

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.....why would pro-life people spraypaint "Choice" and "Womyn hates"?

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Oh, and I wouldn't go to a pro-life doctor, no way no how.

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A question if I may Audra if a physician said that although they did obstetrics they did not include abortion in their own practice would you discontinue in favour of a doctor that provided that service or by prolife do you mean someone who takes a more active stance?

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I had understood that this was information to a class in general I wasn't thinking that they were speaking to an individual patient.

In either example the answer is no.

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That I disagree with entirely and unequivocally disagree with. Everybody has the right make their own decisions on what they agree with, and their own INFORMED decisions, after having been given all relevant information.

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They would not treat the unborn that just happen to be in my body as equal persons. They don't accept or believe that so they would only do superficially to patronize me.

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I am sure that any good physician (and I don't believe quality of physician is dependant on views on abortion) would treat you in the manner that you wished to be treated, and not superficially or patronizingly. The same way I don't think it would be physically possible to withold a blood transfusion from a Jehova's Witness in a superficial or patronizing manner.

quote:

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It's simply that with complications I have a tendency - and I would imagine it would be common for others in higher risk situations - not to have an easygoing attitude towards pregnancy and childbirth. I spend more time than I should thinking of "what if" scenarios and trying to puzzle my way through to make intelligent decisions. I have a heightened sense of vulnerability, emotions run higher etc. It's just part of the milieu that surrounds the pregnancy.

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Which does make me think that your choice is based less on logic, and more on anxiety. I certainly wouldn't advocate putting your trust entirely in the physician and stop paying attention. Audra has been quite adamant that physicians are quite capably of ignoring a patients needs for their own agenda, but I don't think you'd get very far assuming that's the case. I think that's being prejudiced against the doctor for his views on abortion. If I may extend my bad hair dresser analogy even further, you wouldn't go to a hairdresser assuming they're out to get you from the beginning, you start believe that they're competent, watch them in the mirror while they work, and question their ability when they do something questionable, like move to take an electric clipper to your scalp.

quote:

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Originally posted by audra trower williams:
Oh, and I wouldn't go to a pro-life doctor, no way no how.

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I truly do see this in the same light as Hailey refusing to be treated by the pro-choice doctor. Based on their position of being pro-life, there is no reason to believe that they will be a worse doctor because of that position.

quote:

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I wouldn't go to a prolife doctor because I wouldn't trust him/her, should I ever get pregnant, or feel comfortable with his/her views on women's bodies and who should be in charge of them.

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I can certainly understand that, but I truly do think the doctor is just as good as any other doctor, pro choice or life, until you have good reason to believe otherwise. If you decide to have an abortion, obviously you'd go looking for another doctor, but for the duration of an otherwise normal pregnancy, what's wrong with a pro-life doctor?

That truly does also make me uneasy, and I put to you the same question as I put to Hailey earlier. What other personal opinions or qualities make a health professional unqualified in your eyes to treat you as a patient?

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Do you ask your doctor's view on abortion? I do. I know the views of even my dentist! lol I'm a persistent soul.

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May I ask why your dentist's views on abortion are at all pertinent, and would you refuse to be treated by a pro-choice dentist?

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If ONLY I had a dentist.

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Why don't you, Audra?

quote:

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Audra so you are telling me you don't use the Shepherd's guide a lot?

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quote:

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Yes I do Hailey, my apologies, I really did not think it was a pro-choice action.

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It's perfectly cool

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That I disagree with entirely and unequivocally disagree with. Everybody has the right make their own decisions on what they agree with, and their own INFORMED decisions, after having been given all relevant information.

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You are free to disagree. I would ultimately be responsible for the surgical decision as a parent though if the child was a minor.

quote:

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Which does make me think that your choice is based less on logic, and more on anxiety.

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Anxiety is a big factor, sure.

quote:

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I think that's being prejudiced against the doctor for his views on abortion.

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Well, completely!

quote:

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What other personal opinions or qualities make a health professional unqualified in your eyes to treat you as a patient?

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Someone that didn't think rape or wife battering was a big deal or someone who was racist.

quote:

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May I ask why your dentist's views on abortion are at all pertinent, and would you refuse to be treated by a pro-choice dentist?

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I was curious. No, I wouldn't. I'd prefer a prolife dentist but I wouldn't leave probably.

quote:

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May I ask what the Shepherd's guide is? I figure that due to the smiley there's a joke in there somewhere, but I'm entirely clueless as to what's going on...

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Oh, I forget. See....in my circle...everyone would know it...and then I realize...that it might not be broadly known...my fault.

Yep, as I thought here is the web site. Will be purchasing a guide next time I go by a "Christian" bookstore.

Thanks a bunch Hailey.

http://www.shepherdsguide.com/

[ 26 January 2005: Message edited by: remind ]

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I also wouldn't go to a prolife doctor, for the mirror reasons that Hailey has. Namely, I wouldn't want to be treated (especially if I were pregnant) by someone who believes the 'pre-born' have as many rights as the women who are carrying them.

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May I ask what you feel the prolife physician would do that wasn't in accordance with your wishes if you were carrying full term?

I'm not arguing - genuinely interested.

[ 26 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

[ 26 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

All medical doctors in this country are pro-life. They take an oath to that effect. If they are not pro-life, they are breaking both their oath and the law.

Some may be opposed to abortion, but that is an individual position of conscience, and implies nothing about all the other doctors who don't share it.

I agree with Hailey about the importance of trusting your physician. Doctors are human, individual, and like the rest of us, they have predilections and prejudices and run often on unexamined assumptions, so it is important to find a doctor as empathetic to one's own situation as one can.

After some unhappy experiences with very old-fashioned, paternalistic doctors in my youth, I was thrilled to discover how easy it was, by the early 1970s, to find women family doctors, and I've never since had a doctor who wasn't a woman.

I've twice had surgery, and partly out of sheer luck, I realize, both surgeons have been (exceptionally talented) women. My (brilliant) oncologist is a woman. My dentist (hilarious!) is a woman.

I am truly blessed.

I also don't plan to ever carry a pregnancy to term, so I'm not sure how to answer the "If you decide to have an abortion, obviously you'd go looking for another doctor, but for the duration of an otherwise normal pregnancy?" question.

audra, is there a dental school attached to a university nearby where people can go for cheap/free treatment by students (supervised, of course)?

I know that the U of T faculty offer such a clinic, and my dentist says they're very good.

What do others think?

It took me a lot of years to recognize and admit that. When the pill first became widely available, in that first flush of enthusiasm it was all too easy to assume that all problems had been solved.

I think I can see where Hailey is coming from on the high-risk pregnancy front. I had one myself, and due to an ultrasound that showed increased risks of various forms of non-lethal dwarfism and chromosomal abnormalities (since shown not to be there, but they're still not sure she's "normal") I did a whole load of research on ultrasound soft-markers for various conditions etc. etc. I don't want to get into a big technical discussion about what that means in terms of definitions, but I was completely surprised and repulsed to see that discussions of the success or failure of various kinds of soft-markers in ultrasounds were measured in terms of the number of children born in a particular population with, say, downs' syndrome.

Since it's not like you can cure it if you find out about it, it was really obvious that those researchers viewed the success of their endeavours in terms of how many parents-to-be ended up terminating pregnancies of children with downs' syndrome. They weren't at all about providing information to patients in order to enable them to make their own decision; success was not measured in terms of the number of children with downs' syndrome successfully identified prenatally.

It was all about the number born, or in other words, the number terminated.

And I can very well believe that if I were ardently pro-life and having a high-risk pregnancy to boot, that I would not be at all comfortable being served during my pregnancy by a doctor who might share those views, as much as they may be a very small proportion overall of the total number of physicians. I say this as a person who is very much pro-choice and agrees with Michelle's statement on one such thread that a woman should be able to have an abortion for whatever reason she chooses, including that the baby won't match her shoes.

I know that since she was born, it has been critically important for me to find medical care for her that views her as the healthy, beautiful little girl she is first and foremost, and as a "puzzle" to be solved well down the list. And I can well believe that if I were ardently pro-life that it would have been just as important to find such a doctor for myself before she was born, too.

The class took over a month, and covered almost everything I can think of, and much that I've forgotten, from the plumbing through all types of birth control and into pleasure cycles etc.

At the time I thought the class was standard curriculum, but in retrospect I realize that the teacher had gone far beyond anything in the curriculum. In fact, I'm pretty sure she was disciplined a couple of years later, which is a shame. A hero, in her own way.

To put things in context, the other school in town was a Catholic school, where they received nothing at all. The teen pregnancy rate was appalling - at one point in Grade 11 I knew approximately 25 girls who were pregnant, and many others who had been already. (None by me, I payed attention in the class). Many of those girls (I use the term 'girls' because they were 14-17 yrs old) had come out of the Catholic system.

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Originally posted by Hailey:

May I ask what you feel the prolife physician would do that wasn't in accordance with your wishes if you were carrying full term?

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Well mirror of you, if I were in a position where I was unable to provide clear communication about my wishes I would be afraid s/he might make a choice that was more in keeping with his/her beliefs than my wishes, but more importantly to me it's just a basic value (like some of the ones you mentioned above like racism etc).

I believe that an anti-choice doctor is in a fundamental conflict of interest when dealing with pregnant patients, because while in the world *I* live in her/his primary (and some may argue *only*) commitment is to the health, safety and comfort of the person who has *chosen* him or her to be their doctor, I cannot help but fear a that an anti-choice doctor's commitment to a pregnant patient would be 'diluted' by a commitment/responsibility to the growing fetus that could potentially be in conflict with the commitment/responsibility to the woman.

Edited to reflect skdadl's comments about the word 'prolife'.

[ 26 January 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I remember The Shepherd's Guide well from my Baptist churchgoing days. They were sent to the church office. I was horrified at the thought of them. Talk about disgusting.

Don'tcha be givin your money to anyathem Jew or Muslim heathens! You want something, you make sure you go to a rightbelievinbornagain!

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My thought exactly, only far more eloquently articulated.

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I want a Shepards Guide, just so I know what businesses and service providers to avoid.

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Which I view as entirely equal to using one to find businesses that one SHOULD use.

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I also wouldn't go to a prolife doctor, for the mirror reasons that Hailey has.

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I'm quite surprised how many people feel that way about their doctors. Maybe I'm naive and idealistic, but I'd like to believe that, atleast to begin with, most doctors are going to act in accordance with proper ethical conduct, namely that their patients' wishes are to be respected. Period.

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Uh, I don't have a dentist because I can't afford one.

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"Do you think someone who is anti-abortion can also call him- or herself a feminist?" Without hesitation she said: "No. Until birth control is perfect -- universally safe, effective, cheap, accessible -- and probably not even then, there has to be abortion available. It's lousy, but that's the way it is. If we don't have control of our own bodies, we don't have anything."

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http://www.feministsforlife.org which has Patricia Heaton for their spokesperson and many other women who are prolife would disagree with me. I don't believe it's possible but I am not unsympathetic to the alternative view.

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One thing I think we don't emphasize or discuss enough is that safe and effective birth control is still immensely difficult, and difficult in different ways at different stages of a woman's reproductive years.
It took me a lot of years to recognize and admit that. When the pill first became widely available, in that first flush of enthusiasm it was all too easy to assume that all problems had been solved.

Not so. And every other method I know has its dangers or its failures.

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don't want to get into a big technical discussion about what that means in terms of definitions, but I was completely surprised and repulsed to see that discussions of the success or failure of various kinds of soft-markers in ultrasounds were measured in terms of the number of children born in a particular population with, say, downs' syndrome.

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There is a very strong bias in the medical community to terminate a pregnancy that involves a child with a cognitive disability. I would say that the medical community, in general, would favour that option.

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And I can very well believe that if I were ardently pro-life and having a high-risk pregnancy to boot, that I would not be at all comfortable being served during my pregnancy by a doctor who might share those views, as much as they may be a very small proportion overall of the total number of physicians

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It's really not uncommon for a doctor to think that. Some are better than others with realizing others feel differently.

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I know that since she was born, it has been critically important for me to find medical care for her that views her as the healthy, beautiful little girl she is first and foremost, and as a "puzzle" to be solved well down the list

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Extremely important

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This is probably not well understood by folks who have never had the joy of dealing with the medical community through a high-risk pregnancy.

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It's true - it gives you a different perspective.

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Well mirror of you, if I were in a position where I was unable to provide clear communication about my wishes I would be afraid s/he might make a choice that was more in keeping with his/her beliefs than my wishes, but more importantly to me it's just a basic value (like some of the ones you mentioned above like racism etc).

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I don't think that that is improbable. It's quite possible.

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I believe that an anti-choice doctor is in a fundamental conflict of interest when dealing with pregnant patients, because while in the world *I* live in her/his primary (and some may argue *only*) commitment is to the health, safety and comfort of the person who has *chosen* him or her to be their doctor,

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I see your point and although my thinking follows a different path I have the same fears. I fear, enormously, that the personnel who are prochoice won't see the unborn as an individual patient and that in a true emergency that would influence their interventions.

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cannot help but fear a that an anti-choice doctor's commitment to a pregnant patient would be 'diluted' by a commitment/responsibility to the growing fetus that could potentially be in conflict with the commitment/responsibility to the woman.

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Alternatively, I feel that a prolife physician who passionately recognized the dignity, worth, and value of the pregnancy from conception onwards would lead to an enhanced level of care for the babies and an enhanced comfort level of myself.

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Raos, I choose not to give my money to racists and bigots. Much as I do not give my money to Shell Oil, Chevron, Kellogs, et al.
It is MY money after all

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May I ask is your objection to christians who advertise only within their own circles or would you boycott christians in general?

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I'm quite surprised how many people feel that way about their doctors. Maybe I'm naive and idealistic, but I'd like to believe that, atleast to begin with, most doctors are going to act in accordance with proper ethical conduct, namely that their patients' wishes are to be respected. Period.

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Yeah, I used to believe that, too, until I started working with Medical Students for Choice, and heard so many horror stories about how anti-choice doctors badgered medical students who were taking their summers to learn how to perform abortions (since, you know, it's actually not taught in Med School) about wasting their careers as "baby killers", and hearing even worse stories about the shit some anti-choice doctors had pulled (like the stuff I outlined previously) that resulted in women being forced to give birth to babies they didn't want.

[ 27 January 2005: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]

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Raos, I choose not to give my money to racists and bigots. Much as I do not give my money to Shell Oil, Chevron, Kellogs, et al.

It is MY money after all.

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it most certainly is your money after all, but it still smells of discrimination to me.

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Yeah, I used to believe that, too, until I started working with Medical Students for Choice, and hearing so many horror stories about how anti-choice doctors badgered medical students who were taking their summers to learn how to perform abortions (since, you know, it's actually not taught in Med School) about wasting their careers as "baby killers", and hearing even worse stories about the shit some anti-choice doctors had pulled (like the stuff I outlined previously) that resulted in women being forced to give birth to babies they didn't want.

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I'm quite surprised how many people feel that way about their doctors. Maybe I'm naive and idealistic, but I'd like to believe that, atleast to begin with, most doctors are going to act in accordance with proper ethical conduct, namely that their patients' wishes are to be respected. Period.

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Honestly, that is naive and idealistic. Physicians have very strong views on things just like any other members of the human family. It can easily trickle out and influence things subtly or more significantly. There are physicians that steadfastly believe that behaviour management techniques should be employed as an alternative to psychiatric drugs and that belief guides their entire approach. I have seen vegetarian physicians forcefully promote their views and, alternatively, I have seen non-vegetarian physicians roll their eyes with impatience after completing an examination on a child raised by vegetarians.

In terms of pregnancy I have personally heard physicians make comments about women who have children closely spaced together or large families. My friend's mother had a physician that aggressively pursued a tubal ligation with her after the birth of her last three children. She had a total of 14 children. Why she kept going to him is beyond me.

I can say one of the things that I saw in the hospital that bothers me the most happened very early on when I was a beginning student. The reason it bothers me so much is that I didn't do enough. I accompanied a patient down to the operating room even though that wasn't my role. I had developed a rapport with her and everyone thought that would keep her settled. I stayed with her until she was sedated and was within earshot for a few minutes because a colleague needed some assistance with something in an adjacent area. The physicians were laughing, joking, and making unflattering comments about her body. I remember feeling sick to my stomach that a vulnerable person was being treated that way but I was very young and reacted, initially, by just retreating. After a few days because I couldn't get it off my mind I ended up speaking with others only to learn that it was not uncommon. The orderlies were able to give the most ghastly stories of it. I subsequently summoned the courage to go and speak with one of the physicians about it. With the passage of time though and great experience within the hospital I now know that I should have done things differently and it's never set well with me. In the time since then I have always dealt with things differently.

The example that stands out for me is just too difficult to get into with depth but my sister during her cancer treatment made some very controversial choices. They were ones that I even had difficulty accepting even though I had a very respectful relationship with her. I can tell you that without exception I believe that the opinions of the physician influenced their interactions with her even when they made good clinical discussions and provide her with a good standard of care.

There are bad apples in every profession. Most doctors are great but there are ones that have snags. That profession attracts persons who have a great sense of confidence in their skills and there isn't enough training around the more human aspects of patient care. It's not uncommon for physicians to see patients as "something to fix" and see diseases/illnesses as a poor war or challenge. It's a special doctor that sees a patient wholistically and who personalizes the journey.

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Yeah, I used to believe that, too, until I started working with Medical Students for Choice, and heard so many horror stories about how anti-choice doctors badgered medical students who were taking their summers to learn how to perform abortions (since, you know, it's actually not taught in Med School) about wasting their careers as "baby killers", and hearing even worse stories about the shit some anti-choice doctors had pulled (like the stuff I outlined previously) that resulted in women being forced to give birth to babies they didn't want.

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I probably would interact differently with someone who was an active member of that organization. I would not be charitable or accommodating. At the same time I can't imagine anyone being so unprofession as to tell a colleague that they were a "baby killer" or to harass someone.

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Originally posted by Raos:
it most certainly is your money after all, but it still smells of discrimination to me.

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I'm not sure what "horrible" thing that the doctors did in terms of patients approaching them for abortion.

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Uh, you would be if you were actually reading my posts. I think I've been VERY clear that I'm not just talking about refusing to perform the procedure, but you keep behaving as though I am all vague and who knows WHAT I am talking about?

[ 27 January 2005: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]

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Doctors can decline to do abortions all they want. The last thing I want is a anti-choice doctor being forced to do an abortion, because I have no desire for a anti-choicer to ever get near my reproductive organs. What they can't do is tell their patients that abortion is illegal or not send in their referrals.

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Fair enough. You should not receive treatment from them. You should refuse.

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Uh, you would be if you were actually reading my posts. I think I've been VERY clear that I'm not just talking about refusing to perform the procedure, but you keep behaving as though I am all vague and who knows WHAT I am talking about?

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Your posts have been clear and in those examples I'd agree. I felt though that your examples with medicals for choice would have extended beyond the two provided. I was just being clear what I'd considered wrong.

[ 27 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

There's no evidence there to indicate it's anything but one person's vanity page. It's not at all uncommon in activism centred around many subjects. As yourself, the best you can do is get a letter to the editor published. As the founder of "Student Nurses for Life" you can put out press releases and give interviews forever -- and chances are no one is ever going to ask how many members are in your group, or why there have never been any membership meetings to decide policy. Examples include REALWomen, the National Citizens Coalition and, on a much smaller scale, "Homosexuals Opposed to Pride Extremism," a pet group of the Religious Reich that consists of one very sick man who earns his living as a pimp.

It also has a note from June, 2003 saying:

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Today I made the last updates to Leftout. This page is officially being retired. There are a variety of reasons for this move. I have long felt that the format is stale and there's really nowhere to go given the way the site is currently set up. I could do a complete overhaul, but many of the features I'd like to add simply aren't possible on the prolife.liberals.com server due to technical limitations. Besides, I've decided that it's time for a fundamental change in approach.

So, while Leftout is being retired, I am pleased to announce that a new project for forward-thinking pro-lifers is just beginning. The new site (working title: "21st Century Prolifers", but that is subject to change) will focus on a particular philosophy rather than left-right labels.

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Which I view as entirely equal to using one to find businesses that one SHOULD use.

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Actually, I don't. I would boycott them specifically for the reason that they were advertising in a publication such as the Shepherd's Guide, not because they're born again Christians.

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These "people"?
There's no evidence there to indicate it's anything but one person's vanity page. It's not at all uncommon in activism centred around many subjects. As yourself, the best you can do is get a letter to the editor published. As the founder of "Student Nurses for Life" you can put out press releases and give interviews forever -- and chances are no one is ever going to ask how many members are in your group, or why there have never been any membership meetings to decide policy. Examples include REALWomen, the National Citizens Coalition and, on a much smaller scale, "Homosexuals Opposed to Pride Extremism," a pet group of the Religious Reich that consists of one very sick man who earns his living as a pimp.

It also has a note from June, 2003 saying:

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I did not read the whole site I just did a google search. I was less diligent than yourself in reading all of the details.

I've never heard of the Natioanl citizens Coalition or HOPE. I am very well acquainted with REAL women and AFWUF which is the comparable sister group in Alberta. I know many many members. I don't see the groups as you do but that's cool.

Michelle, I can see your point. I've never considered it that way myself and I have used the directory depending on the purchase I am making. I wouldn't make a practice of using it for every purchase.

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Originally posted by Hailey:
I've never heard of the Natioanl citizens Coalition or HOPE. I am very well acquainted with REAL women and AFWUF which is the comparable sister group in Alberta. I know many many members. I don't see the groups as you do but that's cool.

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You may know many women stupid enough to send their money in to Real women, but that doesn't make them members of a real group. It makes them suckers.

Real groups are responsible to their members and elect officers.

Of particular relevance to this conversation:

"It's hard for Americans to remember abortion bans here, much less imagine them today. What China and Romania illustrate is the ugly mechanics of turning anti-abortion morality into law. "Once a month, Romanian women were rounded up … taken to a government-controlled health clinic, told to disrobe while they were standing in line … [and] examined by a government doctor with a government secret police officer watching," Clinton recalled. "In China, local government officials used to monitor women's menstrual cycles and their use of contraceptives." In both cases, "the government was dictating the most private and important decisions," said Clinton. "With all of this talk about freedom as the defining goal of America, let's not forget the importance of the freedom of women to make the choices that are consistent with their faith and their sense of responsibility to their family and themselves."

snip

"Is the press corps asleep? Hillary Clinton just endorsed a goal I've never heard a pro-choice leader endorse. Not safe, legal, and rare. Safe, legal, and never.

Once you embrace that truth—that the ideal number of abortions is zero—voters open their ears. They listen when you point out, as Clinton did, that the abortion rate fell drastically during her husband's presidency but has risen in more states than it has fallen under George W. Bush. I'm sure these trends have more to do with economics than morals, but that's the point. Once we agree that the goal is zero, we can stop asking which party yaps more about fighting abortion and start asking which party gets results."

"Admit the goal is zero, and people will rethink birth control. "Seven percent of American women who do not use contraception account for 53 percent of all unintended pregnancies," Clinton said. That number drew gasps from her pro-choice audience. I bet if she translated it to abortions, it would knock folks in Ohio out of their chairs. How many abortions are you willing to endure for the sake of avoiding the word "condom"? Clinton says we can cut the abortion rate through sex education, money for family planning, and requiring health insurers to cover contraceptives. What's your plan? Ban abortion and monitor everyone's womb like Romania did? Or ban it and look the other way while the pregnancies go on and the quacks take over?" (emphasis added)

and finally:

"Above all, a message of responsibility breaks down the distinction between motherhood and contraception—the widespread attitude that there are two kinds of women: those who have babies and those who have birth control pills or, failing that, abortions. In reality, said Clinton, they are the same woman. "An average woman who wants two children will spend five years pregnant or trying to get pregnant and roughly 30 years trying to prevent pregnancy," she observed. You don't have to be against motherhood to line up behind birth control as the best anti-abortion strategy. You just have to be for it."

[ 27 January 2005: Message edited by: arborman ]

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Hillary Clinton is reaching out to pro-life voters by softening her rhetoric on abortion, and the Medium Lobster can only applaud her ingenuity and sharp-witted political calculation. Indeed, if there's any constituency that stands to warm to Senator Clinton, it has to be single issue pro-life conservatives, who are finally ready to embrace the senator after over a decade of believing her to be a radical Communist demon queen who murdered Vince Foster in cold blood to prevent him from telling the truth about her secret coven of lesbian witches. With their Hillary-hatred nearly exhausted, social conservatives are now a fertile new demographic waiting for exploration! But how long will it take for the rest of the Democratic Party to figure it out? If Barbara Boxer starts denouncing the menace of illegal immigration and Ted Kennedy promises to clamp down on the gay agenda, it could save this party yet!

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Hailey - There are several examples of the behaviour I outlined in my two examples. THAT is what I'm talking about.

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Those examples are offensive. No ethical person could support that.

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You may know many women stupid enough to send their money in to Real women, but that doesn't make them members of a real group. It makes them suckers.

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Real groups are responsible to their members and elect officers.

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And they are not because why please?

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REAL Women, whether you choose to admit it to yourself or not, is basically an anti-gay hate grou

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I honestly have to say I've not seen that be the focus anytime I've interacted with a member of seen them speak. I've seen them speak on women's equality, child care issues, feminist bias, gender roles, and abortion. I've never seen them talk about homosexuality and I don't believe it's a big focus for them though I would agree they are most certainly not going to be inclusive of homosexuality.

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Hillary Clinton is reaching out to pro-life voters by softening her rhetoric on abortion, and the Medium Lobster can only applaud her ingenuity and sharp-witted political calculation. Indeed, if there's any constituency that stands to warm to Senator Clinton, it has to be single issue pro-life conservatives, who are finally ready to embrace the senator after over a decade of believing her to be a radical Communist demon queen who murdered Vince Foster in cold blood to prevent him from telling the truth about her secret coven of lesbian witches. With their Hillary-hatred nearly exhausted, social conservatives are now a fertile new demographic waiting for exploration!

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Just thinking... if your partner had also been drinking too much ... sounds likely ... then she definitely should have avoided or terminated pregnancy by any means. Society still is too silent about the great medical and social harm caused by FAS. It is a huge and grossly underestimated problem. Forget the percentage of inmates incarcerated for violent crimes suffering from FAS, but it is very high.

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It is a problem one doesn't hear enough about, and is very, very serious, as I'm sure you know.

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Gee, wonder why they thought that would be a good idea?

Sounds creepily like Romania to me.

I've been trying to tell people what Clinton is now saying for years--that the alternative to legal abortions isn't a state without abortion, but state control of women's bodies. That you can't effectively ban abortion without it. It's nice to see someone in the public eye actually taking that up.

[ 28 January 2005: Message edited by: vmichel ]

There is a sinister thread running in Aus, predominantly run by the Catholic Church and ultra-con Catholic groups, and the most worrying thing is several of their high profile supporters are Commonwealth Govt. Ministers (including the Health Minister! Great!)

Our newly elected Labor Opposition Leader is also gleefully jumping on the bandwagon. Not a good time for progressives in Australia.

[ 01 February 2005: Message edited by: Walker ]

I think it takes some special gall to even propose it.

And apparently the representative is now complaining because people personally attacked him on-line for proposing it. Poor fellow! Imagine that his little bill might make people angry?