I was particularly disappointed in the group of men marching behind us, shouting into a megaphone, "Hey, hey, U.S.A., how many kids did you kill today?" right into the ears of the two small children with me and the who-knows-how-many others within earshot. You don't need to be a genius to think that a rally devoted to women's issues is going to have some kids at it, and you don't need to be parent to know that children get nightmares from things like shouts about kids being killed ( you only have to have been a child yourself).

As I mentioned on the other thread, I'm really torn about men's participation in women's events. It's great to know that they're behind us in our struggle but it's hard to feel grateful (and do we even need to feel grateful, that our brothers are doing what's right?) when they seem to take up all the space, with their bodies, their voices and their sense of entitlement. I think that's what galled me the most about many of the men attending the march - the air of smugness and self-congratulation that some of them had.

No one is asking men to not support women or women's day or anything. Just let them celebrate alone. It's nice to have people celebrate your birthday with you, but if they started to try and celebrate it for themselves, it wouldn't be very special.

[ 10 March 2003: Message edited by: dale cooper ]

I think andrean had quite valid objections, and she went out of her way to state that she doesn't hate men. I find cynic's "summary" of andrean's position to be nothing but a straw man. Where did she say that men should stay away from all feminist gatherings?

I had mixed feelings as well about the anti-war protest being held on IWD. Feminists have so often been told by their progressive male counterparts that focusing on women's issues and allowing women to speak for themselves instead of having progressive men speak for them is "divisive".

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Recently my friend said, I'd 'dispose of' all but the healthiest men, place them strategically so that they can't cause any trouble and let women go about the business of running the world. She seemed convinced that we would achieve instant harmony.

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What can't you understand about how upsetting it is to have such sentiments coming from the people who are supposed to be allies? I don't want to run your feminist movement I want to the change the world into a place where all people are treated with respect and dignity.

I have been dished more than once on this forum for stating these views but I will continue because I believe it is critical to getting from here to there. I am one of those men who confront other men about sexist comments and who doesn't let his son watch sexist crap on TV without getting a commentary on misogyny. I speak out and don't want anyone telling me that I should be quiet just as you don't want me to tell you not to worry your pretty little head about things like politics.

Having said that if I was going to go to a IWD march I would likely keep a low profile and I would be marching with my significant other. Someone should have mentioned to the offending men [my guess it was a minority of the men in the march] what the problem was.

But by all means, boys, take it away. You can have this thread. Maybe us women will talk about how we feel in another thread. In another forum - oh wait, this IS the feminism forum. Oh well.

So maybe cynic is right - maybe I should have confronted the men whose behaviour I found objectionable. I suppose if it hadn't been IWD and I hadn't been expecting more than the usual level of sensitivity towards women at an event celebrating that occasion, I might have. It would just be really nice for people to be more thoughtful so that we wouldn't always have to be challenging their inappropriate behaviours. (I have no objection, incidentally, to men's presence, hairy or otherwise)

But, just to add fuel to this fire, I find that it's sometimes more difficult to challenge feminist men on their behaviour than it is to address non-feminist men. Feminist men may not become hostile to challenge, like a sexist man might, but the criticism is often met, just like on this thread, with reproof: "Why are you criticizing me? Don't you know I'm on your side?" As if being on the right side entitles you to be otherwise insensitive.

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When you grow up you will too.

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Talk about a patronizing, snotty, and demeaning response. What do you bet that this poster has never done anything for human rights anywhere?

One event that I think should remain women-only - and I see it as an exception to the above - is "Take back the night" marches, specifically because their aim is to ensure that women can move about freely, without needing a bodyguard, however benevolent.

(Edited to correct first sentence, which was unclear).

[ 11 March 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]

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Talk about a patronizing, snotty, and demeaning response.

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Absolutely right, jeff. I would only add that it is the kind of attitude that andrean (and other women, I'm sure) have encountered from many men -- and men on the Left in particular. There is a long history, dating back over a century, of privileged white male radicals telling women, Jews, you-name-it, to stop being so frivolous and sectarian about their interest in feminism, anti-Semitism, you-name-it. Inevitably, their much-trumpeted concern with "human" rights flags when they realize they might have to stay home and watch the kids once in a while, rather than attending those exciting rallies and chanting those thrilling slogans.

The behaviour of the men described by andrean was appalling. Also, sadly, typical.

[ 11 March 2003: Message edited by: Whazzup? ]