web link

Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons
Protocol III
Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons.
Geneva, 10 October 1980

Article 2
Protection of Civilians and Civilian Objects
3. It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.

Given the demonstrable injury to civilians, including horrific burns to children, would any of the posters here care (dare)to justify Israel's apparent use of white phosphorous?

[ 24 July 2006: Message edited by: Maggie's Farmboy ]

In other words, eight year old girl, it's your parent's fault we fired chemical rounds into your parent's car and maimed you for life. They didn't flee fast enough!

link

[ 24 July 2006: Message edited by: Maggie's Farmboy ]

quote:

---

Emile Lahoud, the President of Lebanon, yesterday accused Israel of using phosphorous bombs in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

---

Having served in the Israeli armed forces, I can state without fear of contradiction by anyone possessing knowledge on the matter, that they do NOT use it as a weapon, (Any ignorant yahoo, armchair strategist, ar arab apologist out there wants to say otherwise, go ahead, but it isn't going to prove anything.) not because of the Geneva conventions, but because they consider it really nasty stuff... which it is. It throws around pieces of burning phosphorous, which if they get on you, just keep burning. It would take a knife to cut it off...

Having said that, I should quote my father, who served in the US army as a combat infantry officer in the Pacific: It is the best weapon for caves, pillboxes, bunkers, and buildings. Soldiers can take grenade fragments, for example, and keep on, but with phosphorous, they come out screaming. In spite of this, and I know that the Israeli army knows this, they don't use it, except for marking.

I also realize that those countries euphemisticly called the "great powers" have and do use it rather more indiscriminately. Vietnam was a case in point.

quote:

---

It throws around pieces of burning phosphorous, which if they get on you, just keep burning. It would take a knife to cut it off...

---

Civilians in Beirut are showing up to hospitals with obvious signs of such wounds.

quote:

---

Folks, you are showing a lamentable fountain of ignorance on this subject. Every nation in the world with an army possesses white phosphorous.

---

and since everyone has them, this makes it completely acceptable to drop em on cities. Thanks for the clarification.

quote:

---

since the Arab military and paramilitary organizations are guilty of egregious violations of the Geneva accords and the rules of war in all their forms

---

quote:

---

Human Rights Watch sent another letter to the IDF in September 1995 concerning allegations of the use by Israeli forces in southern Lebanon of both dart shells ("flechettes") and phosphorus shells. That letter had not been answered as of April 1996. ...

There have been numerous allegations of the use of phosphorus shells in southern Lebanon in this period. See for example, "Lebanese Radio Reports "Ferocious" Clashes, Two Days of Israeli Shelling," Voice of Lebanon, BBC Monitoring Service: Middle East, October 31, 1994. On June 13, 1995, UNIFIL issued a protest to the IDF for the deliberate firing, apparently by the SLA, of phosphorus shells toward local crops in southern Lebanon. Human Rights Watch telephone interview with a UNIFIL spokesman, November 20, 1995.

---

link

All you have to add is a chorus of "The Cossacks are coming Hurrah Hurrah" (to the tune of "The Campbells") or maybe start chanting HEP HEP HEP.

As to the other comments, no, it doesn't make it good... and I never said that they were all terrorists not do I assume they are, that is just you jumping to conclusions. I do, however, follow the news, and I can again safely say that in every area, from the treatment of prisoners, targeting of civilians, hiding behind civilians, use of prohibited munitions, and so on, the Arab violations are far worse. Yet you don't care.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rickandanumber:
Noise, if you are going to talk about one-sidedness, you folks should try curbing your anti-semitism. And yes, as soon as someone says "well, Israel is going to be held to higher standards" or "Did you see what horrible things Israel did", it is antisemitism, because when it happens somewhere else you are yawn... scratch... and ignore. That is the definition, because what you really mean is Jew Jew Jew.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rickandanumber:
Noise, if you are going to talk about one-sidedness, you folks should try curbing your anti-semitism. And yes, as soon as someone says "well, Israel is going to be held to higher standards" or "Did you see what horrible things Israel did", it is antisemitism, because when it happens somewhere else you are yawn... scratch... and ignore. That is the definition, because what you really mean is Jew Jew Jew.

---

Rick, a critisism of Israel is not inherently anti-semetic. Any state, be it populated by Moslems or Jews or anyone else, that has carried out the insanely agressive military actions that Israel has commited deserves to be condemned. These people have never meant Jew, Jew, Jew in thier condemnation of Israel.

YOU, on the other hand, have been explicitly stating Arab, Arab, Arab. "Arab apologists", "Arab military". You talk about them as if they are some single-minded entity, like the Borg or something. Quite frankly, you're being racist. I mean, there are Arabs who are militants, such as the members of Hizbollah (who I don't support) there are Arabs who just want Israel to stop bombing Lebanon flat and protest peacefully to express that (people I do support). There are dozens of Arab states in the middle east, each unique in thier own way, and over a billion Arabs living in these states and across the world, each one unique in thier own way.

A quick lesson for you:

A) Israel is responsible for the suffuring of millions of Palestinians, Lebanese, and Gazans.
True and not racist
B) "Israel is responsible for all suffering in the Middle East over the last 50 years"
Untrue, but not racist
C) "Saudi Arabia has violently repressed it's people over the last decade"
True and not racist
D) "The Jews are responsible for the suffering of millions of Palestinians, Lebanese, and Gazans"
Untrue and racist and should get you banned from here
E) "The arab military organizations are responsible for war crimes"
Untrue and racist and should get you banned from here
F) "Arabs are terrorists"
Untrue and will get you an ass-kicking
G) "Rick will last longer than 10 posts on this site if he keeps going Arab, Arab, Arab"
Untrue
H) "West Coast Greeny is an intelligent and attractive man"
True

Study hard babblers, you will be tested.

[ 25 July 2006: Message edited by: West Coast Greeny ]

[ 25 July 2006: Message edited by: West Coast Greeny ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rickandanumber:
Noise, if you are going to talk about one-sidedness, you folks should try curbing your anti-semitism.

---

All the 'they're singling us out!" whines do is make it clear that Israel is guilty as charged.

quote:

---

Noise, if you are going to talk about one-sidedness, you folks should try curbing your anti-semitism.

---

Compared to US and Israeli media, anything short of a 'kill all arabs!' appears to be anti-sematic. I completly and utterly disagree with their strategy and their tactics (pick one of their tactics and I'll tell you why)... Which you somehow instantly correlate to anti-sematic.

You seem to have the 'with us 100% or our enemy' beleif down rather pat... In your mind is it possible to disagree with Israeli tactics without being anti-sematic? Is anything but 100% support for Israel and 100% hate for the 'evil Arabs' anti-semetic?

quote:

---

I do, however, follow the news, and I can again safely say that in every area, from the treatment of prisoners, targeting of civilians, hiding behind civilians, use of prohibited munitions, and so on, the Arab violations are far worse. Yet you don't care.

---

Where do you get the opinion I don't care? oh.. I'm sorry, not 100% supporting Israel, so I must be entirely against. In your opinion, is it possible to critisize tactics without being anti-sematic? It's rather obvious your news sources are Israeli or American (otherwise you'd know more than just 'evil arabs!')... If anything you make for good proof that the Media war efforst are succeeding ^^

And you continue to insist on using the term 'Arab'... When you cut that racist shit, maybe someone can take your opinion for face value.

[ 26 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

quote:

---

(Any ignorant yahoo, armchair strategist, ar arab apologist out there wants to say otherwise, go ahead, but it isn't going to prove anything.)

---

quote:

---

I never said that they were all terrorists not do I assume they are,

---

Israel has even attacked nations that have NEVER attacked it... Iraq, in 1981, for example, because Israel "felt threatened" by the Iraqi nuclear facility being built.

It seems Israel is the ONLY nation in the region ALLOWED TO HAVE ILLEGAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

No one else can!

Everytime Israel or an Israel supporter whines about "double standards", they should realize that most criticism is WELL FOUNDED AND BASED ON AVAILABLE FACTS.

Fact: Israel is aggressive militarily
Fact: Israel is in non-compliance with SIXTY NINE U.N. resolutions, but has attacked a neighbor for "failing to comply" with ONE U.N. resolution.
Fact: Israel has illegal nuclear weapons
Fact: Israel illegally targets civilian infrastructure (hospitals, schools, etc).
Fact: Israel's casualties are 10% of the casualties Israel, herself, has inflicted on her neighbor Lebanon.
Fact: Israel still illegally occupies a small portion of Lebanon.
Fact: Israel uses "rendition" and "targetted assassinations" to KILL its opposition, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD (and has done for 50 years).

All these facts, and more, leave Israel open to being placed in the SAME strata as Saudi Arabia and other middle eastern neighbors who DON'T have transparent, democratic regimes.

Israel may have a form of democracy, AS LONG AS YOU ARE JEWISH.

Is ANY of this antisemitic? NO!

I will, however, repeat what I said: Any double standard in dealing with Israel is anti-Semitism. That's how it goes.

If you want to get more personal, consider the following:

Canada has troops in Afghanistan. Our armed forces is involved in combat. I can guarantee that our forces and those of our "allies" in this matter have used and are using white phosphorous as a marker, I can guarantee that there have been civilian casualties from these munitions. I can also guarantee that there have been civilian targets such as schools which have been hit, bombed, shelled, or otherwise destroyed. The body counts make that perfectly clear. Using your logic, Canada is also guilty of war crimes, and the current and previous ministers of defense and prime ministers are (according to the Nuremburg judgements) war criminals.

So where are your protests? Please, good sirs and madams, post the links so we can see that you are other than mealy mouthed hypocrits.

Please also post the links to your comments regarding President Putin's condemnation of Israel for using excessive force, bearing in mind his own actions in Chechnya. Do you really think that what Israel is doing is comparable to Grozny?

You might also post the links to your condemnations of a dozen other savage little wars, some involving muslims, some not, but I won't hold my breath, because they just don't exist.

At the risk of being redundant, I repeat, I don't like war, and I don't like what happens to civilians in them. Any civilians. However, the various charges which have been posted here, complete with assertions of "fact" and "true" from a lot of arm chair strategists and individuals who have never had to engage in combat or even serve in the military, and who appear to belong to the CampusCrazies Fanclub directed at one and only one target, are nothing more or less than antisemitism. You are obsessed with one nation. If you have any other explanation which you can rationally offer, please do so.

I most certainly agree that it is an interesting situation when paramilitary organizations, in defiance of the rules of war, place their installations, forces, offices, and ordinance in direct proximity to or inside civilian edifices such as schools, mosques, and hospitals, and their international supporters begin to cry when eventually such places become targets. Mosques are still generally off limits to the Israeli forces, but the others do presuppose that the Hizb'allah itself acknowledges the moral superiority of Israel in these matters: in other words, that Israel will refrain from bombing said institutions. Or else they are hoping that they will have civilian bodies to parade before the cameras. Take your choice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rickandanumber:
Noise, if you are going to talk about one-sidedness, you folks should try curbing your anti-semitism.

---

The thread was, I believe, a denunciation of Israel using white phosphorous as a weapon. I noted, (and being the only one to post here with any experience in this matter, I suggest that my opinion should be taken as valid) that this was not the case. The fact remains that there are people who are only too willing to condemn Israel for things which are not true, and they are also only too willing to believe any slander that is mooted about Israel, while ignoring identical or far worse behavior by other nations. If you have another phrase which describes that, please feel free to post it, and I will cheerfully extend my apologies should I accept it as a valid definition.

Prejudice is a terrible thing, and in my experience, Racism is widespread. Of course, anti-semitism is not the only form of prejudice in the world, but such defenses as "we aren't against jews, just against Israel" bring to mind dark memories of similar remarks concerning blacks, chinese, Sikhs, Indians, First Nations, Irish, Ukranians, Swedes, and so on. As in "Oh, we like our ________, an' we ah real good to them; it's those other uppity ________ who are causin' all the trouble... and that's why we had to shoot them."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rickandanumber:
Michelle, if you or any of the others here think that my intellectual well being is dependent on either their approval or approbation, you are sadly mistaken.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rickandanumber:
The thread was, I believe, a denunciation of Israel using white phosphorous as a weapon. I noted, (and being the only one to post here with any experience in this matter, I suggest that my opinion should be taken as valid) that this was not the case.

---

Your only purpose here seems to be to spread lies.

The word is getting out gradually that Israel is using illegal weapons against Lebanese civilians. If you want to dispute these reports, why don't you take it up with the source of those reports, and spare us your mock indignation?

quote:

---

"Israel has always used them [phosphorous bombs]," said Timor Goksel, a former spokesman of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) who served for over 20 years in southern Lebanon.

"[Phosphorous bombs were] mostly used in the terrain, not in urban areas, which is allowed. Phosphorus bombs are allowed to light up a battlefield, [but cannot be used] to firebomb buildings."

"I've seen the victims' burns in the hospital of Tyre, and they almost certainly have been caused by phosphorous bombs," he told IRIN. Source

---

quote:

---

Jawad Najem, a surgeon at the hospital, said patients admitted Sunday had burns from phosphorous incendiary weapons used by Israel. The Geneva Conventions ban using white phosphorus as an incendiary weapon against civilian populations and in air attacks against military forces in civilian areas. Israel said its weapons comply with international law.

"Mahmoud Sarour, 14, was admitted to the hospital yesterday and treated for phosphorous burns to his face," Najem said. Mahmoud's 8-month-old sister, Maryam, suffered similar burns on her neck and hands when an Israeli rocket hit the family car. Source

---

Do not mistake critism of Israeli tactics that are bound to
A) FAIL COMPLETELY
B) Spark international critism and hatred towards Israel
C) Cause additional instablity in the region ensure this cycle occours again and agian and again.

Israels tactics are completely horrible, they've brought civilians into a war which most of them did not want. They've bombed countless citizens for the actions of a minority within the nation. How would you like to be targeted (with phosphourus weaponry) because the apartment building you live in is suspected to sit on a tunnel/bunker (which you were not aware of)? And then told while you're crying over your 4 dead siblings that it's your fault for letting them live under your building! Have you not considered the loss of 600 innocent civilians within Lebanon that had nothing to do with the conflict? Apparently in your eyes, not only is their deaths something to be praised, but critisizing Israel for causing the casualties is inherantly anti-sematic. Here's a quarter, go buy a clue.

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

quote:

---

You should really read your own posts more closely. Of course, no man so blind as he who will not see... For example, I didn't use either "Nazi" or "Hitler". If you have problems reading, then I would respond that if the shoe fits, wear it, as apparently what we have here are a series of Freudian slips.

---

You have no understanding of the term, apparently. Rather than symptoms of associations in the unconscious, we have a cultural and political matrix which overtly uses the figure of Nazism as the example of antisemitism par excellance and posits The Holocaust as the ultimate expression of historical antisemitism and as the figure of Absolute Evil. There is furthermore a grand-scale propaganda machine (of which you are a part, wittingly or not) to utilise this matrix to ground ethical and moral justifications for the actions of the State of Israel. Godwin's Law is informal and your black-letter reading of it is a desperate attempt to avoid it's intent. And that is an admonition to avoid gratuitous slanders of one's debate opponents as "antisemites, facsists, Nazis, Hitlerian, etc." Again, it took you but two posts and you had to start with a strawman to slip it in...

quote:

---

If international law is to have any meaning whatsoever, it must be applied equally. No exceptions. No excuses. No rationalizations.

---

Your admonition that some here "hold Israel to a higher standard" is a strawman. No one on this thread seems to be doing that. Moreover, you are relying on a linguistic slip from "Hizbollah" to "The Arabs" to justify your position. Hizbollah is not using phosphorous incendiary devices. Israel is. Holding them to the same standard (international law) we see that Israel is in the wrong. Your anecdotal evidence about the IDF's attitude notwithstanding, what do you make of the reports that they are using them?

Most telling is your response to charges that Israel violates international law in it's selection of weapons: "The Arabs are worse" is in the first place a "rationalisation" of just the kind you oppose. It is furthermore a tacit admission of Israel's guilt - talk about Freudian. Go look up the case of the Stolen Kettle.

In international law - as in child-rearing - "Two wrongs make a right" and "everyone was doing it" are not considered strong moral arguments.

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]