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Author Topic: The Entirely Good-Natured Cuba Conversation Continues
Coyote
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posted 17 September 2007 08:12 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Carry on, gentle philosophers.

[ 17 September 2007: Message edited by: Coyote ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 17 September 2007 08:17 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Carry on, gentle philosophers.

I was trying to edit my last post when they closed the thread

So here it is.

ETA: The kinds of freedoms cherished by capitalist societies are the kinds of freedoms that allow capitalists to become bigger capitalists, and to enjoy what they've acquired, not the kinds of freedoms that allow non-capitalists to lead decent, meaningful lives.

Of course, this has been said a million times but this thread goes round and round and round so I might as well jump on for a bit!

[ 17 September 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
ChicagoLoopDweller
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posted 17 September 2007 08:19 PM      Profile for ChicagoLoopDweller     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cubans don't pay for the "freedoms" of housing, education, food, and medical care? I think they pay a very high price for these things.
From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 17 September 2007 08:22 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChicagoLoopDweller:
Cubans don't pay for the "freedoms" of housing, education, food, and medical care? I think they pay a very high price for these things.

I'd give up something like the freedom of the media companie to say whatever they like (freedom of the press), for example, in exchange for medical care any day!

[ 17 September 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
ChicagoLoopDweller
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posted 17 September 2007 08:31 PM      Profile for ChicagoLoopDweller     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So sites like rabble should be shut down?

Then you would have a great situation, the state controlled media could tell you how amazing your terrible health care services are.

[ 17 September 2007: Message edited by: ChicagoLoopDweller ]


From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 17 September 2007 08:38 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
RosaL, travel is pretty cheap in the US. You can take a round-trip train ride from St. Paul to Seattle for $140. I took the train from St. Paul to Chicago a couple of years ago and it cost me forty bucks both ways. If it got much cheaper, they'd be paying the passengers to ride the train.

When I was a kid, we have very little money but we traveled all the time (we had a row boat on a trailer in which we carried all of our tents and other camping and other gear in) and we saw all 46 of the fifty states over the course of many trips. We never stayed in hotels nor ate in restaurants (we had sandwiches, oat meal, etc.). Today, eighty bucks gets a person a park pass to all National Parks that's good for a year.

One need not be "rich" to travel.

[ 17 September 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 17 September 2007 08:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The conversation continues, or the conversations continue, but never do the conversations continues.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 17 September 2007 08:52 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Haha. Ah, crap. Edited.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
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posted 17 September 2007 09:47 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
RosaL: "a) you're the one who brought in being "harmed". I used the rather classical term, "exploitation"."

Martha: OK. I can agree with you that I'm being exploited in the kind of scenario I described. Either this exploitation harms me or it does not. If it does not harm me, then I see nothing wrong with being exploited.

RosaL: "b) Why you are doing the work makes a difference. "

Martha: Why would I work for a stranger for $12 per hour plus tips doing something I enjoy? Well, (1) I enjoy it, and (2) it's good money.

RosaL: "c) That is not a simple yes or no question and you have, as usual, phrased it to suit your perspective."

Martha: Well, of course I am going to phrase it to suit my perspective! Who else's perspective should I suit? If you prefer to rephrase my question to suit your perspective, I will try to answer it.

RosaL: "Nonetheless, if they're making a profit from your labour, I suppose you are being exploited - though not, I would think, if you are "donating" it."

Martha: I certainly was not donating my labour, even when doing it for friends. I was selling my labour: for $12 per hour, plus tips. I would not have donated it. And I would have felt much more "exploited" if I had somehow been convinced to donate it.

RosaL: "If you have to sell your labour to live and someone is making a profit from it then, yes, you are being exploited."

OK, then may I ask another question: Is there anything wrong with being exploited? Nothing you have said convinces me that exploitation is always wrong or harmful.

RosaL: "Now you are going to say that it's a freely made contract from which both parties benefit, right?"

Yes, that is something I might say. If it is not true that both parties benefit, then I would like to know where I am mistaken.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 September 2007 10:59 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChicagoLoopDweller:
Cubans don't pay for the "freedoms" of housing, education, food, and medical care? I think they pay a very high price for these things.

Latin America has paid a high price for U.S. political interference over the years. They've paid in economic terms, loss of freedom and tragic loss of life during years of dirty wars to murder an idea. The Cuban people, the CIA, and the worms in Miami have come to an understanding that Cubans will not participate in CIA orchestrated counterrevolution.

Since chasing the very corrupt and repressive U.S.-backed mafia regime from Havana in 1959, Cubans today have the highest rate of home ownership in the western hemisphere, and they have universal access to health care and education. These things didn't come easily for Cubans, and their parents and grandparents remind them of the years of struggle, and that they have a duty to stand up for the revolution. Because Cubans understood what repression and oppression was all about with U.S.-influenced dictatorship in Cuba. Many older Cubans remember the long back-breaking days in the cane fields while their children sold themselves to rich tourists. They remember the brutality of BRAC, General Batista's secret police.

Democracy requires a healthy, well educated and informed public. Most of the Latin American countries with U.S.-backed leadership or political alliances over the years do not have these basic requirements for democracy. The USA itself does not fulfill all of those requirements, and that country is the largest source of criticism for Cuba.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Catchall
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posted 18 September 2007 08:34 AM      Profile for Catchall        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel, You make it sound so perfect. And I don’t mean that sarcastically. You really do. You are a wonderful advocate for Cuba and socialism.

However, you forgot to mention a little thing called choice. Maybe the majority of Cubans would actually choose to live in a one party dictatorship with limited freedom of speech or opportunity. Or maybe, if they were asked, the majority of Cubans would choose to have more personal freedom and autonomy. Of course, we may never know, because they have someone in charge of their lives and their futures directly making that decision for them.

Cuba is a closed society. There is little American influence there now. I say lets have a fair referendum and ask the Cuban people if they want to live under a dictatorship or under a democracy. And understand, democracy cannot coexist with the level of socialism Castro has imposed. Once people get to choose their governments, they will invariably choose one that allows them to increase their standard of living as individuals in accordance with their own personal output. It’s human nature, after all. Ego, selfishness and an unquenchable thirst for personal gratification are the largest and most impenetrable obstacles standing in the way of collective socialism. And they can only be tamed by force and oppression.

[ 18 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
Krago
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posted 18 September 2007 08:50 AM      Profile for Krago     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Democracy requires a healthy, well educated and informed public. Most of the Latin American countries with U.S.-backed leadership or political alliances over the years do not have these basic requirements for democracy. The USA itself does not fulfill all of those requirements, and that country is the largest source of criticism for Cuba.

Fidel, does Cuba have a healthy, well-educated and informed public? If yes, how would you suggest introducing democracy?


From: The Royal City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 18 September 2007 09:07 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've stayed clear of these Cuba threads until now but here it goes.

I'm sure that this has been said a thousand times or more, but... Why is it that the "anti-revolution" babblers continue to argue that Cuba cannot be truly democratic without multi-party elections?

This is a really ahistorical argument that is not really based on fact. In Canada Jean Chretien was essentially our dictator for the decade that he had a well disciplined majority in the House. I don't think that the Liberals ever had anything close to popular support. George W. Bush is another example of extreme power with no popular support in a multi-party electoral democracy.

There are many other ways of conceiving democracy besides the very new multi-party election. I would encourage people to read the Great Law of Peace as an example of advanced democracy that does not included multi-party elections. Other examples include participatory budgeting as practiced in places like Sao Paulo, Brazil and the Neighborhood councils used in Cuba.

I think that true democracy can only be realized when the state is abolished in the form that it exists and power (with all the ambiguity of that word) flows from communities to leaders not from the Head of State to the people as is the case in all states (Cuba included). I think that Cuba has done more to confront this than Canada where most people are happy to cede all power to the Crown and the government except the small amount that is "given" to us through the Charter.

But again, I'm sure this point has been made in the 1000's of posts about Cuba.


From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 September 2007 09:12 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Fidel, does Cuba have a healthy, well-educated and informed public? If yes, how would you suggest introducing democracy?

Not that I am Fidel, but what if the UN and world community did what it was supposed to do? What if the UN nd world community demanded that the blockade of Cuba be lifted? What if the UN nd world community then stationed troops on Cuban soil with the express mission to defend Cuba from aggression? What if the UN and world community demanded the Guantanamo be closed and all non-sanctioned foreign troops forces be withdrawn? In other words, what if the external threat to Cuba was relieved? What would Cubans do?

To ask what Cubans should do before the threat is relieved, would be like asking a victim how he would do things differently while the gun is still pressed against his temple.

And let's be certain about one thing. Cuba faces an existential threat that is real, that is determined, and that has the means and wherewithal to make good on its intentions.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 September 2007 09:13 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's been pointed out that, according to the demand that political parties advocating the restoration of imperialist/capitalist rule in Cuba must be allowed in order for Cuba to be a 'real' democracy, political parties must run that advocate the restoration of slavery in the U.S. or indentured servitude in Canada in order for those countries to be 'real' democracies. The stupidity of insisting that U.S. financed quislings run for office, because bourgeois democracy is the only democracy, or some such nonsense, should be self-evident to any honest person.

There has still been no satisfactory reply and I doubt there ever will be.

[ 18 September 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 18 September 2007 10:42 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Their biggest concern seems to be that Cubans can only ever vote for communists or Fidel himself, which is horsehockey. That isn't even true in Canada. As a Canadian citizen voting in so called multiparty elections, I don't get a chance to vote for Stephen Harper or Jack Layton directly. And although a large majority of Canadians, the ones who were enthusiastic enough about our dated electoral system to have participated in the last election, voted against the Conservative Party, Steve Harper is still Prime Minister of Canada. He's a phony Prime Minister with less than 24 percent of eligible Canadian voter support.

How ridiculous is that ? Jean Bertrand Aristide enjoyed more voter support from Haitians before the CIA abducted and banished him from Haiti with Ottawa's help. Hamid Karzai, the "Mayor of Kabul" might possibly be more legit than either Steve Harper or president Dubya. I think Canadians are not concerned enough about democracy here in our own country, especially with undemocratic maneuvering by our two old line parties and their closed door meetings with the Republican cabal over SPP, NAU and deep integration. It's very troubling. And it's definitely not very encouraging for Cubans.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ChicagoLoopDweller
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posted 18 September 2007 04:13 PM      Profile for ChicagoLoopDweller     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Not that I am Fidel, but what if the UN and world community did what it was supposed to do? What if the UN nd world community demanded that the blockade of Cuba be lifted? What if the UN nd world community then stationed troops on Cuban soil with the express mission to defend Cuba from aggression? What if the UN and world community demanded the Guantanamo be closed and all non-sanctioned foreign troops forces be withdrawn? In other words, what if the external threat to Cuba was relieved? What would Cubans do?

To ask what Cubans should do before the threat is relieved, would be like asking a victim how he would do things differently while the gun is still pressed against his temple.

And let's be certain about one thing. Cuba faces an existential threat that is real, that is determined, and that has the means and wherewithal to make good on its intentions.


By that logic you should be George Bush's biggest supporter. Bush would argue that Al Qaida is a threat that is real, determined, and that has the wherewhithal to make good on its intentions.


From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 18 September 2007 04:30 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cuba needs public forums were people who ask questions of candidates are tasered and arrested. That is true democracy anything less and Cuba must be a dictatorship.

I love the American apologists who come on here and demand elections in Cuba while pointing a gun to its head. Amerika has always had a very mean Puritanical Taliban streak. By the way who won the free and fair elections in Florida the last two elections?


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 September 2007 04:51 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
By that logic you should be George Bush's biggest supporter. Bush would argue that Al Qaida is a threat that is real, determined, and that has the wherewhithal to make good on its intentions.

Clearly reading is not one of your strong points. Let's review my last sentence: "Cuba faces an existential threat that is real, that is determined, and that has the means and wherewithal to make good on its intentions."

The United States is right next door to Cuba and has a base on Cuban soil. The United States began the last century by invading Cuba and ended it with a blockade. The United States has engaged in terrorist attempts to disrupt life and the political leadership in Cuba, sponsored an invasion, and harbours anti-Cuban terrorists.

The United States is the most militarized and militaristic nation on earth.

Only a complete moron, or perhaps an American, would believe the threat Al Qaeda poses to the US is as real, as imminent, and as all consuming as the threat the giant US poses to tiny Cuba.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 18 September 2007 05:06 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Al Qaeda is obviously not as bad as Americans have been led to believe. If they have the means to attack Amerika then it must only be out of the goodness in their hearts that they have resisted so far.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 18 September 2007 05:29 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChicagoLoopDweller:

By that logic you should be George Bush's biggest supporter. Bush would argue that Al Qaida is a threat that is real, determined, and that has the wherewhithal to make good on its intentions.


Ah, but anti-terrorist Cubans are imprisoned in world's largest gulags and basic human rights denied for their efforts to prevent terrorism.

And the Cubans have never aided and abetted al Qaeda when al Qaeda was cornered during a dustup in Afghanistan. See operation snatch the enemy from the jaws of dafeet.

You've got war parties number one and two to vote for. How do you even decide ? Ah, I imagine it's like here, most Americans will vote "Liberal" Democrat to avoid electing a bunch of right-wing whackos. And instead, you get Liberal Democrat whackos who often pander to the right-wing whackos either in opposition or when governing. So it all works out in the end for the military industrial complex, big energy companies, dope-trafficking CIA and the shadow government all. It juuuust neeeever ends.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 September 2007 06:06 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
kropotkin1951: Cuba needs public forums were people who ask questions of candidates are tasered and arrested.

In regard to the events at the Unversity of Florida: John Kerry is a former candidate. Who knows what would have happened if he was actually running for office.

quote:
kroptkin1951: I love the American apologists who come on here and demand elections in Cuba while pointing a gun to its head.

Quibble. It's actually Uncle Sam who's got the gun. And he's firing in all directions as a general matter of principle. As soon as I find out what principle that is, I will let you know.

(muttering to himself) "Shoot first and ask questions later" ? Maybe not. What about "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" ? I think I'm getting warmer ...

[ 18 September 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
ChicagoLoopDweller
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posted 18 September 2007 06:15 PM      Profile for ChicagoLoopDweller     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps reading is not my strong suit.

Although, FM, I suppose it must be said that engaging in a civilized debate that does not resort to name calling is not your strong suit.


From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 September 2007 06:23 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps. I find, however, that civilized is not all that it is cracked up to be. As best I can tell civilized means that everything that I do is rational and proportional, no matter how violent, and everything you do is evil and barbaric no matter how defensive.

I apologize for the moron remark. It was uncalled for.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 18 September 2007 06:51 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
I would encourage people to read the Great Law of Peace as an example of advanced democracy that does not included multi-party elections. Other examples include participatory budgeting as practiced in places like Sao Paulo, Brazil and the Neighborhood councils used in Cuba.

I think that true democracy can only be realized when the state is abolished in the form that it exists and power (with all the ambiguity of that word) flows from communities to leaders not from the Head of State to the people as is the case in all states (Cuba included). I think that Cuba has done more to confront this than Canada where most people are happy to cede all power to the Crown and the government except the small amount that is "given" to us through the Charter.


Good post!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 24 September 2007 02:06 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Former Assistant to Colin Powell calls for demonstrations against the US government.

quote:
DEEPLY disgusted by the many injustices surrounding the case of the Cuban Five, Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief of staff to General Colin Powell, has published an open letter in which he not only denounces the situation of the Five, but calls for public demonstrations in support of the five anti-terrorists locked up by Bush’s government.

Further:

quote:
"These men were unarmed, not intent on any physical damage to the United States, and were motivated to protect their fellow citizens from invasion and repeated attacks by Cuban-Americans living in Florida.

"And we have to ask also, just how is it that we have become a safe haven for alleged terrorists? How is it that we—the United States of America—may rate a place on our own list of states that sponsor terrorism?


How indeed.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 24 September 2007 02:18 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where is Wilkerson's letter?

I see he says this in the summary quoted by Granma which you cited:

quote:
"If the facts are as counselor Weinglass reported, this case is truly the bottom of the pit. I had great trouble believing it, but I had nothing with which to refute Mr. Weinglass' superbly delivered presentation.

Also, there is no place in the quoted materials in which he calls on people to participate in demonstrations for the Cuban Five. Maybe in his letter?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 24 September 2007 02:22 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why don't you put that powerful intellect to good use and find it for us? I figure the letter is buried in the pages of the New York Times, somewhere. The Cubans have a way of embellishing a story like this; but I doubt they would just make it up. And Wilkerson has a history of writing such letters.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 24 September 2007 02:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Where is Wilkerson's letter?

Everybody knows the Cuban Five were there to steal Pentagon secrets and running drugs for their Bogota-Miami connections. Come on now.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 24 September 2007 03:26 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wilkerson's letter
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ChicagoLoopDweller
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posted 24 September 2007 05:24 PM      Profile for ChicagoLoopDweller     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At what point did the Cuban 5 reveal why they were in the US?
From: Chicago | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 24 September 2007 06:12 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChicagoLoopDweller:
At what point did the Cuban 5 reveal why they were in the US?

The FBI was informed a couple of months in advance that the Cubans would be there in Florida as part of the joint U.S.-Cuban cooperation against terrorism. Nobel laureate Gabriel Garcia Marquez describes his conversations with Richard Clarke and visit to the Clinton White house in 1998.

Full text of Fidel's speech on what happened leading up to the arrest of the Cuban anti-terrorists in Miami

"If you harbor a terrorist, if you support a terrorist, you are a terrorist" (American legion members applaud vigorously)

[ 24 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 26 September 2007 08:44 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
The conversation continues, or the conversations continue, but never do the conversations continues.


Hows cans wes bes sures theys don'tses?

From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 28 September 2007 10:56 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cuban Foreign Minister discusses the delirium tremens (the shakes) of the US President:

The Cuban Foreign Minister makes the usual and excellent points about the problems facing the global community. His summary of the statistics is eye-opening and worth repeating, however:

quote:
Poverty does not decrease. Inequality among and within the countries is on the rise. Drinking water is not accessible to 1.1 billion people; 2.6 billion lack cleaning services; over 800 million are illiterate and 115 million children do not attend primary school; 850 million starve every day. And 1% of the world’s richest people own 40% of the wealth, while 50% of the world’s population merely has 10%. All this is happening in a world that spends a trillion dollars on weapons and another one on advertising.

The nearly 1 billion people living in developed countries consume approximately half of all the energy, while 2 billion poor people are still not acquainted with electricity.

Is that the world that they want us to accept?


However, the strongest words are reserved for remarks about the screeching bully in the White House who polluted the UN with his words:

quote:
Mr. President:

This was supposed to be the end of my statement as Chair of the Non-Aligned Movement. However, the shameless and gross behavior of the US President in this hall, yesterday morning, now forces me to utter a few remarks on Cuba’s behalf.

With a foul language and an arrogant tone, President Bush insulted and threatened some ten countries; he gave orders, in a firm and authoritarian fashion, to the General Assembly; and with such bossiness never ever seen in this hall, he dished out terms and judgments on a score of countries.

It was an embarrassing show. The delirium tremens of the world’s policeman. The intoxication of imperial power, sprinkled with the mediocrity and the cynicism of those who threaten to launch wars in which they know their life is not at stake.


There's lots more and it's all true.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 28 September 2007 10:46 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 28 September 2007 10:53 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'll do you one better.

[ 28 September 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 10 October 2007 01:30 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cubans go to unusual lengths to post blogs

quote:
When 32-year-old Yoani Sanchez wants to update her blog about daily life in Cuba, she dresses like a tourist and strides confidently into a Havana hotel, greeting the staff in German.

That is because Cubans like Sanchez are not authorized to use hotel Internet connections, which are reserved for foreigners.

In a recent posting on "Generacion Y" (http://www.desdecuba.com/generaciony/) Sanchez wrote about the abundance of police patrolling the streets of Havana, checking documents and searching bags for black-market merchandise.

She and a handful of other independent bloggers are opening up a crack in the government's tight control over media and information to give the rest of the world a glimpse of life in a one-party, Communist state.



From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 04:16 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
U.S. State Department: "The majority of Cubans support Castro. There is no effective political opposition in Cuba…the only predictable measure we have today to alienate internal support for the Revolution is through disillusionment and desperation, based on dissatisfaction and economic duress. Every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba, to decrease real salaries, to bring about hunger, desperation and the overthrow of government".

A criminal and genocidal blockade against Cuba

I looked up the ITU, the source of internet statistics used in the Reuters article, and its President had this to say following last year's internet governanace conference:

quote:
... ITU Secretary-General Yoshio Utsumi who noted that the future of Internet governance is not global but local, with governments deciding for themselves what is appropriate.

"For better or worse, societies have their own complete views of what is appropriate," Shaw said. "Take online gambling. In the U.K., it's perfectly fine but the U.S. has banned it. The Internet needs to adapt itself to this tapestry of different views, and it is."


Internet Forum Participants Clash

That whole article quoted by Doug reads like it was written by the CIA. Which it probably was, given the typical "one party state" mantra that gets regurgitated over and over again. Even the U.S. blockade is somehow the fault of the Cubans. But I'm somewhat surprised by the internet stats. Most of the stats provided are from the CIA but the ITU is also listed. And it's wise to be suspicious of data in regard to Cuba that the U.S. government had anything to do with.

[ 10 October 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 04:56 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some of the horrific, not to say genocidal, consequences of the U.S. blockade of Cuba:

quote:
The sanctions have cost the Cuban economy more than $89,000 million since then (July 1960 - N.Beltov). In 2006 Cuba lost nearly $4,000 million as a direct consequence of this brutal policy. Not only can the Caribbean island not export any product to the U.S., nor import anything, but it does not even have the authorization to establish commercial dealings with U.S. companies located in other countries, which is in flagrant violation of international law. Cuba cannot obtain credits of any kind from international financial institutions and are prohibited from using the U.S. dollar in its transactions with the rest of the world.

What we need is regime change, not in Cuba but, in the U.S.A..

quote:
This is nothing less than a genocidal assault as defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide of December 9, 1948, which stipulates in Article II that “In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” Points B and C respectively specify “Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group” and “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.” [9] It couldn’t be any more clear.

Unpunished genocide. It's the American way.

Yanqui cruelties


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 October 2007 10:59 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Doug's post documents the fact that Cubans are not allowed to write freely on the internet.

I guess that's why all the Great Defenders of Castro need to stand up for their favorite.

Cubans can't be relied upon to do so.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 10 October 2007 11:22 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And yet Cubans get on-line and post to blogs to reveal, allegedly, a state run by the western media and fashion corporations attempting to end licensing piracy. And they even manage to talk to reporters about it.

I wonder how many Cubans are on the hook to the music industry for $150,000 for using the Internet ... hmmm.

Meanwhile a 21 year-old was convicted to prison in the great, free west for being a "wannabe" terrorist. The evidence against his crime of being a wannabe, was his Internet activity. Go figure.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/show.php?id=2927


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2007 11:24 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
Cubans go to unusual lengths to post blogs


That's a nice U.S. propaganda piece, Doug, and thanks for that. It points out the desperation of anti-Cuba propagandists. Human rights groups have admitted that the issue is more the case of lack of means than effort to increase internet access through infrastructure spending as is the case around the world right now. The U.S. and Canada once turned our backs on laissez-faire capitalism to get on with building public telephone networks which would later be used as backbone carrier for our own internet access. None of the original PSTN system in North America was the result of private enterprise investment or neoLiberal free market voodoo. And these turkeys have the audacity to criticize a small Caribbean island that had to shrug off the chains of mafia-style capitalism around the same time North America was well on its way to providing phone services across the continent by way of massive public investments.

And thanks, N. Beltov. Here is a brief interview with John Perkins from 2005, author of 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman'

More than 200 million children around the democratic capitalist world will sleep in the streets tonight. None of them are Cuban.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 11:29 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The issue of access, in general, is at least as important. Developing net skills even on approved web sites is still useful. The low numbers in Cuba surprise me - but perhaps Uncle Sam is able to exert his nefarious influence in this matter. God knows the US can screw up medical and other technological matters in Cuba. And, as the ITU Secretary-General Yoshio Utsumi remarked, societies have their own views of what is appropriate. The US bans online gambling, for example. But I doubt anyone would suggest a blockade as a remedy to that restriction of "freedom".
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2007 11:57 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The issue of access, in general, is at least as important. Developing net skills even on approved web sites is still useful. The low numbers in Cuba surprise me - but perhaps Uncle Sam is able to exert his nefarious influence in this matter.

Obviously the barring of trade between the U.S., it's corporate proxies in surrounding nations and Cuba has reduced overall Cuban revenues with which many things could have been possible for Cuba. The U.S. has used trade as a weapon on many occasions with other countries.

One things we do know and understand is that democracy is impossible without a well informed and educated public. And this is why all Cubans have access to higher education as a universal basic human right. They are also experimenting with university for all through television broadcasts and making use of the islands coaxial CATV network traversing the island. The texts for courses are provided by Cuba's newspapers which can be bought for a couple of pesos at a time.

On the other hand, access is not all that important to Canadian and American plutocratic governments as we watch tuition fees and cost of accessing a post-secondary education soar out of reach for so many people here. Internet access is fine, if it's not commercialized and exploited for the sake of shop anywhere capitalism. I'd rather a young Canadian have free access to higher learning than just the freedom to run up credit card debt and play games.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 10 October 2007 12:04 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I get it now;

Evil Communist Cuba is cracking down on copyright infringers and this is a sign of their corrupt authoritarian government.

Evil Communist China is not doing enough to crack down on copyright infringers and this is a sign of their corrupt authoritarian government.

Makes perfect sense to me anything done by a comunist government is evil and proof they are inferior to us.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 10 October 2007 12:05 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The issue of access, in general, is at least as important. Developing net skills even on approved web sites is still useful. The low numbers in Cuba surprise me - but perhaps Uncle Sam is able to exert his nefarious influence in this matter.

Amnesty International:

quote:
Amnesty International today expressed concern at the impact on freedom of expression and information of Cuba's new law restricting internet access.

"The new measures, which limit and impede unofficial internet use, constitute yet another attempt to cut off Cubans' access to alternative views and a space for discussing them," said Amnesty International as a new law came into force on Saturday. "This step, coming on top of last year's prosecution of 75 activists for peacefully expressing their views, gives the authorities another mechanism for repressing dissent and punishing critics."

The new law, which came into effect on 10 January, limits internet access to those, such as officially recognised businesses and government offices, with special telephone accounts payable in US dollars. This prevents ordinary Cuban people from accessing the service.

"Amnesty International fears that the new measures are intended to prevent human rights monitoring by restricting the flow of information out of Cuba," the organisation said.

"The Cuban authorities must do away with illegitimate curbs on freedom of expression and information, and must bring their legislation into line with international human rights standards once and for all," Amnesty International concluded.



From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Krago
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posted 10 October 2007 12:18 PM      Profile for Krago     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If I meet a powerful man, I ask five questions:

What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interests do you exercise it?
To whom are you accountable?
And, how can I get rid of you?"



From: The Royal City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2007 12:21 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why is no one concerned about the lack of internet access in Guatemala, or in Nicaragua after ten years worth of neoLiberal ideology Washington-style?

How can you crackdown on internet access when the infrastructure and means just aren't there yet? It's like the CIA infiltrated NGO's in Zimbabwe claiming violations of women's rights to buy sanitary napkins. They can't buy very many western products, especially when an embargo exists and lines of credit are cutoff by hard line ideologues.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 10 October 2007 12:32 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Why is no one concerned about the lack of internet access in Guatemala, or in Nicaragua after ten years worth of neoLiberal ideology Washington-style?

I've been on the internets. It's full of nothing but porn and idiots spouting their moronic personal opinions. It's not worth it.

....wait..where... am..I.. ah crap..


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2007 12:43 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does this sound like the actions of a repressive government trying to stop the outside world from trading with and communicating with Cuba? An Americano telecom company might have had a chance to bid on this contract if it weren't for dated cold war ideology stinking up Warshington still. Jeez, I know people in Canada who don't have a roof over their heads let alone inet access or even three squares a day.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 01:14 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I do hope Professor Gordon isn't re-using the 75, or so, employees of the U.S. Embassy that are getting "repressed". Anyone in the employ of the U.S. Government in Cuba cannot be trusted with a roll of toilet paper, much less anything else. But I guess those numbers help massage the horrors of Cuban "repression", just as reference to the "one party state" in an article about internet access by Reuters is also useful "massage" of the facts.

I don't know if I really want to go back to January 2004 to dig up information on the change of Cuban law. But that's when the AI press release was. Anything more recent?

Cuba has to pay very much more expensive satellite internet service because the evil states of America has prevented Cuban access to the appropriate cable 10 miles off the Cuban coast. So much for Yanqui love of freedom. I'd like to hear the whole story, not just Reuters propaganda or AI regurga-burp.

A sidebar, of some relevance. When bigots assert, as they still often do, that women are "inferior" to men, typically as a justification for fewer rights or lower wages, etc., many of us will point out that until such time as women are treated equally from birth, the "hypothesis" can't really be tested at all. I feel that way about the horrific effect of the blockade on Cuba. Until such time as Uncle Sam stops trying to murder Fidel Castro, stops carrying out sabotage of the Cuban economy, and ends the 5-decade old blockade of that heroic island, many or most questions about the degree of economic development and the political rights associated with that development is moot anyway. It is the expressed aim of the U.S. to overthrow the Cuban government. Period. Many commentators on Cuba here stuff cotton batten into their ears when faced with this fact and feign that it has no relevance to the topic at hand.

End rant.

[ 10 October 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 10 October 2007 02:03 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
AI report from January 2007:

quote:
Also, access to the internet is severely limited outside governmental offices and educational institutions.

From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 02:11 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
BINGO. Looks like the Yanquis are doing the dirt after all. What a f***ing surprise.

quote:
Authorities in Cuba blame the U.S. embargo for the high local cost of Internet connections, and for the serious problems in web services in this socialist Caribbean island nation.

"Despite the fact that international fibre optic cables run very close to Cuban shores, the rules of the (U.S.) blockade prevent connection to these," said Cuban Informatics and Communications Minister Ramiro Valdés. ...

According to Valdés, Washington agreed to Cuba's connection to the Internet in 1996, but opposed its connection to any fibre optic cable, "meaning that the nation is forced to use a satellite channel with a mere 65 Mbps (megabytes per second) broadband for output and 124 Mbps for input."

"The rules also state that any new addition to or modification of the channel requires a license from the U.S. Treasury Department," he said.


Wait! Things are looking up...

quote:
Until recently, the problem seemed to depend solely on the nature of the relations between Havana and Washington. Now it will be solved by laying an undersea fibre optic cable from Cuba to Venezuela, which will allow Cuban communications to link up with other countries.

Now I understand why the monsters in Washington hate Chavez so much. He's getting in the way of undermining the Cuban regime. Bad, naughty socialist! No milk and cookies for you!

quote:
Internet access is mainly available at workplaces and educational institutions. In some cases, international electronic mail and surfing restricted to the national intranet, a local network, is available. Those who have full Internet access, paying connection fees in dollars, are still barred from visiting pornographic sites or websites that are hostile to the Cuban government.

Full access is provided to foreign embassies and companies, and to the international press in Cuba, for instance. An unspecified number of Cuban journalists working for the state press are also given access to this service, and pay special rates.

Universities, scientific institutes and the state media also have full access connections.


What is also interesting is that the article points out that there are no accurate figures for internet usage in Cuba. But the Reuters article made claims about the numbers anyway. Imagine that.

quote:
Minister Valdés complained that "the U.S. blockade not only prevents us from acquiring equipment and IT programmes from U.S. companies, but also, due to its extraterritorial nature, it persecutes our commercial operations with companies from other nations, even in the most distant regions."

The economic sanctions also "prevent U.S. citizens and institutions from using the Web as a means by which to perform transactions with Cuban institutions; and blocks are also put on attempts to download software and information, including free downloads, if the IP (Internet Protocol) number is identified as being from Cuba."

Computer scientist Gómez, in charge of communications in a mixed company involving foreign and Cuban state capital, told IPS: "You realise how much the blockade influences your life, when you want to download or buy an antivirus programme like Panda, and they tell you it can't be done because you're in Cuba."



From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 10 October 2007 02:17 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From that article:

quote:
Internet access is restricted to certain sectors of the population

From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 02:18 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cuba's internet silence: it's Canada's fault!

quote:
28 January, 2000

CUBA'S INTERNET SILENCE - BLAME IT ON THE CANADIANS

NEW YORK CITY, January 28 -- For the past six days, almost every Cuban website has been unreachable to browsers the world over. Website visitors looking for news about Cuba from a Cuban point of view received only error messages from Friday, Jan 21st until Thursday evening, Jan 27th, when the websites suddenly came back to life. ...

Because of the embargo, all internet traffic to and from Cuba travels via international bandwidth providers outside the US, such as Teleglobe, which has routers throughout the US and the rest of the world. There are also "mirror sites" -- clones of most of the Cuban websites -- located in Toronto, Canada at pathcom.com. These sites actually pre-date the "real" Cuban sites which they now mirror, and were mounted before Cuba had the facilities to host its own internet websites.

The real Cuban websites now in place on Cuban servers are a big improvement over the clone sites, which are known collectively as www.cubaweb.cu, but are actually located in Toronto at a commercial provider named Pathcom. Cubaweb has always been been poorly run, and plagued with bad links, missing graphics, and unreliable and slow technical service. This very unprofessional site is run by a Cuban enterprise called Teledatos-GET.

On Friday, Jan 21st, a router in the chain of links between Pathcom and Havana went dead. This took out all connectivity to every real Cuban website located in Cuba (Trabajadores, AIN, Radio Rebelde, Granma, even the new Cuban government site, www.gob.cu) along with the entire Cuban mirror site in Toronto, www.cubaweb.cu. All sites remaind dark for 6 days.


Nah. It musta been the evil commies. No milk and cookies!


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 October 2007 02:24 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
For the past six days, almost every Cuban website has been unreachable to browsers the world over.

I had no trouble reaching the usual government propaganda sites, such as Granma:

http://www.granma.cu/

So now, let's hear the explanation for why Cuban citizens can't post on internet sites? Why they have to pretend to be German citizens and post secretly in hotels?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 02:34 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jeff: that story is from January 2000. I figure if Professor Gordon can dig up AI press releases from 2004, then I can ... etc.

By the way, Professor. You're slipping. I thought the banning of access to pornographic sites would be more important to you as a matter of "freedom". What up with that?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 10 October 2007 02:51 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's all you got?
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 October 2007 02:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's all you got?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2007 02:53 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
[QB
So now, let's hear the explanation for why Cuban citizens can't post on internet sites? Why they have to pretend to be German citizens and post secretly in hotels?[/QB]

If you were Cuban, would you want to spend time blogging or pursuing post-graduate studies via internet with universities in Madrid and Barcelona?

I like you guys, but if the Canadian government decided it was going to use some of the oil and gas and other money bleeding from this country every day, and put it to use with making access to post-secondary a basic human right as it is in Cuba, I know what I'd be doing with my spare time. I'd have a couple of university degrees by now and a brain the size of a planet.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 02:55 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Give the Professor a break. It took him 17 minutes to figure out that response.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 10 October 2007 02:55 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm afraid so. I don't have an answer to Jeff's question that doesn't reflect badly on the Cuban government.
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 October 2007 02:57 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Give the Professor a break. It took him 17 minutes to figure out that response.

Fortunately, I let him do all the thinking for me, so I just had to cut and paste.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 10 October 2007 02:58 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Give the Professor a break. It took him 17 minutes to figure out that response.

I was helping my son with his homework.


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 October 2007 03:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's nice when we have the intelligencia to do all the intellectual heavy lifting for us. Sure does make you wonder at the miracles of the education being denied the poor Cubans.

[ 10 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 03:03 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm. So if an economist made a generalization of a country with 10 million people based on one piece of data you'd be fine with that? That whole article is full of holes. The data on internet usage is highly suspect and probably made up. And so on.

Is that all you got? And what about the porno? Why aren't you denouncing Cuba for banning access to internet porno? Cat got your tongue?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 10 October 2007 03:14 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
N. Beltov, you seem to be developing a very bad habit of inventing elaborate fantasies about what I think, and then pretending that I said it. Do stop it.

The 'relevant data point' is legislation that severely restricts internet access. I can see why the embargo would make internet access problematic in Cuba, but I don't see why it justifies a law like that.


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 03:32 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's an online discussion about Cuban internet access.

Some of the AI claims are disputed by the posters and exact locations are given for internet access in Cuba by people who have actually been there.

I can see why there would be restrictions in a situation where the country is virtually at war with the U.S. and has been that way for 50 years. Think of the restrictions in Canada when this country was at war. I believe Japanese Canadians, socialists, communists and anarchists were rounded up and herded into camps.

I can't help but notice that the internet concerns are lumped together with other concerns for more effective propaganda by AI. But we all know that a common approach to discrediting someone or something is to fling a lot of dung and hope some sticks. The press release resembles the Reuters article.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2007 03:35 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:

The 'relevant data point' is legislation that severely restricts internet access. I can see why the embargo would make internet access problematic in Cuba, but I don't see why it justifies a law like that.

Stephen, a satellite channel allocating 65 Mbit/s broadband on the uplink and 124 Mbit/s dowlink might be decent broadband access for, say, a medium sized university for academic use and campus access. This is what the Cubans have for the whole country.

It's a funny thing about bandwidth that doesn't exist. You can't restrict access to something that isn't available.

from wiki

quote:
Internet access
wasn't allegedly censored in Cuba in 2000 [1]. CNN claimed "the government does not censor, filter or -- it appears -- survey [internet] traffic. While Reporters without borders has claimed there is a "lack of freedom of expression on the internet in Cuba", it is important to note that this organization has ties and agreements with former Reagan aide Otto Reich, the U.S. government, and the exile-group Center for a Free Cuba

Note: Otto Reich is a rabid anticommunist. He is responsible for freeing Orlando Bosch from a prison in Venezuela where he was spending time for the bombing a Cubana Airlines passenger jet and murdering all on board. Orlando Bosch is a terrorist and a murderer.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2007 03:48 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's more about the vicious anti-Cuban campaign by Reporters Without Borders re: the internet

The article re-iterates the points I've made here - that fictitious internet usage figures are being made up (as in the Reuters article that S. Gordon quoted) to discredit Cuba; that the U.S. itself is a prime cause of restricting Cuban access to the internet; that ...

quote:
the United States denies Cuba the use of its fiber optic submarine cable which surrounds the archipelago. Thus, the island is obliged to connect via satellite, which reduces the speed of communication and quadruples the price. For a small country from the Third World, isolated for close to half a century, the effects are not negligible. In the same way, Cuba is obliged to procure new technologies through third countries because of the economic sanctions, which substantially increases their price. Nor can it be forgotten that the United States produces close to 60% of the software of the world and that Microsoft controls the operating systems of 90% of the computers on the planet [12].

and on and on and on. Of course, if "the market" was left to "decide" such things, then those with the money could have unfettered access and the rest of Cubans could go to hell. But that's not the kind of society they want. Hence internet porno is banned; it's less important that other things on the net. And so on.

quote:
On October 19, 2006, RSF published a “report” about the Internet in Cuba which “shows that the authorities deliberately impede access to the Internet.” Here the organization, which tries to be objective and apolitical, also doesn’t explain why the only country about which it issues a “report” – which stands out for its flimsiness—is Cuba. But the most interesting thing is that this same tendentious report, peppered with contradictions and manifest falsehoods, recognizes at the end that it is possible in Cuba to have “access to practically all the information sites, lemonde.fr, bbc.com, el Nuevo Herald (a daily newspaper from Miami [controlled by the extreme Batista right]) and includes the sites of the dissidents of the anti-Castro regime [15].

The report adds: “Tests carried out by Reporters without Borders show that the majority of the sites of the Cuban opposition, as well as those international human rights organizations are accessible by means of ‘international’ service. In China, by means of key words filters were installed on the Net, which makes it impossible, for example, to download pages which contain ‘subversive’ key words. The organization could ascertain, testing a series of prohibited terms in cybercafes, that this type of system is not installed in Cuba”. Nonetheless, RSF, doesn’t explain why it carries out such an obsessive campaign about the supposed censorship of the Internet in Cuba. [16]


[ 10 October 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2007 04:10 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it's a lot easier to believe the reams and reams of ultra right-wing propaganda. It takes all the work out of figuring out what's true and what is a pack of lies.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 11 October 2007 03:19 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Cuba has to pay very much more expensive satellite internet service because the evil states of America has prevented Cuban access to the appropriate cable 10 miles off the Cuban coast.

There's no reason why Cuba couldn't order its own submarine cable, to Mexico perhaps, or failing that, create a domestic internet.

quote:
I feel that way about the horrific effect of the blockade on Cuba.

Which disconnects Cuba from 20% of the global economy. It's bad, but not as bad as it was when the blockade first started. In short, it's less and less of an excuse. It is not an excuse for curtailing people's civil rights, much as terrorism is not an excuse for doing that in the US and elsewhere.

[/QUOTE]


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
jimmyjoe
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posted 11 October 2007 06:34 PM      Profile for jimmyjoe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is pathetic that the mighty U.S. feels so threatened by one small tiny nation. The U.S. government is afraid of any nation that stands up for itself, and attempts to try a new way of running a society. I do not believe in dictatorships, or the way Fidel has restricted some freedoms of "his" citizens. He has done a lot of good I will give him credit for that. He should not interfere in developing a freer society, but the U.S. is hardly free. It is full of constraints, manipulation, deception of the public, and at times planning to murder its own citizens, to make the leaders nefarioius plans acceptable to the public.......Operation Northwood. One wonders how many other 'incidents' have been the result of government planning? The U.S. is only free to those who control it, and they are very few in number. Four trillion dollars goes missing, and the public is told the government cannot account for the loss. How is that democracy? Too many governments have far too many dark areas of their operation, they can come up with all sorts of lame excuses, yes security is important, and the world does have very nasty people in it. Yet too many democracies behave in reality like quasi-benign dictatorships. Yes Castro is a dictator, and yet, what I see in other so-called democracies does not appear all that different in the way they function.
From: British Columbia | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 October 2007 07:31 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
There's no reason why Cuba couldn't order its own submarine cable, to Mexico perhaps, or failing that, create a domestic internet.

Or how about an undersea fiber optic cable to Venezuela to be functional in about a year and a half's time? undersea cable communications cable link to Venezuela project (Feb 2007) This 970 mile long fiber optic link will increase Cuba's internet capacity about 1000 times. This will be a much larger communications pipe than the narrow bandwith over a satellite link and which they have no alternative but to prioritize access to now.

Some Cuban students do postgraduate course work over the same satellite channel and linked to universities in Spain. Therefore internet access over narrow bandwidth must be prioritized in Cuba.

quote:
Which disconnects Cuba from 20% of the global economy. It's bad, but not as bad as it was when the blockade first started. In short, it's less and less of an excuse.

Except that the genocidal trade embargo against Cuba really has affected trade revenues for the island. We know the real effects of a U.S.-led medieval siege against a desert nation, Iraq for over ten years. Why should we believe you that Cuba or North Korea hasn't suffered immeasurably as a similar result?

And FF from the 1990's to today and the expanding Cuban economy, they now have the money to pay for a communications link. U.S. telcos might have had a chance to bid on this contract if it weren't for dated cold war ideology still wafting through the halls of power in Warshington.

Cuba's University for All TV(.doc file) 170 cultural and social programs fed to Cuban homes via the island's end-to-end coaxial CATV network. Course materials are printed in national newspapers to reduce costs associated with university texts.

[ 11 October 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 October 2007 07:39 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Read what ITU spokesman Fabio Leite says about U.S. aggression and violations of Cuban and ITU laws. The U.S. has been a hostile nation to more than just Cuba for a very long time.

[ 11 October 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 October 2007 08:14 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good find Fidel. The article addresses what few points the usual suspects managed to muster. Check this out, for instance:

quote:
Cuba must prioritize Internet access, he said, based on considerations of social use. Health care, education, cultural and scientific institutions, plus businesses, embassies, media centers and government offices all have free rein.

A Cuban law promulgated in January 2004 restricts Cubans’ Internet access via home telephone lines. The measure, criticized by Amnesty International, exempts foreigners who are allowed to purchase access at considerable cost.


Make the foreigners pay. Sounds fair to me. It's interesting how the same set of facts suddenly have an entirely different meaning.

A term that I wasn't familiar with: the digital divide. Canadian leftists may just come to know this sooner rather than later.

I see, as well, in the case of Guillermo Farinas what we have. Individual versus collective rights. Hmm. Let's see. Where do I stand on that one?

Once that underwater cable to Venezuela gets connected things should be looking up. Of course, the U.S. can be counted on to sabotage that as well. But the more friends for socialist Cuba the better.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 October 2007 08:32 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, digital divide. I think of it in terms of technological imperialism. Like Dick Cheney and Gerald Ford encouraging and promoting nuclear power technology in Iran during the 1970's. So what happened to that idea? We know.

The Yanks will even punish their own corporations for dealing with countries not on the A-list. Like Sun Microsystems. They got caught selling one of their high end servers, or something, to some country. I'm not sure which. They paid hefty fines and were restricted from exporting their stuff for a long time. It cost them in terms of market share to Dell. And for what, really. They want to maintain this digital divide. And sometimes they'll resort to hiring terrorists to do the job when things in a particular country are getting so far ahead with schools and hospitals and such, like Nicaragua in the 1980s.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 12 October 2007 01:59 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So what? They can go buy the server from Lenovo, a Chinese company. The network equipment can come from Nortel or Alcatel rather than Cisco. There's really not a lot that Cuba wants to buy or sell that can't be bought or sold somewhere other than the US.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 12 October 2007 03:29 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
So what? They can go buy the server from Lenovo, a Chinese company. The network equipment can come from Nortel or Alcatel rather than Cisco. There's really not a lot that Cuba wants to buy or sell that can't be bought or sold somewhere other than the US.

Except that "the pipe" or bandwidth available to them itself is too narrow to subdivide into access channels for all Cubans realistically. They've only got a satellite channel 65Mbits/s upstream and 124 Mbits/s down, and they pay through the nose for that. Cuba could have multimillion dollar telephone switches and ATM routers, but that would be overkill to the extreme without sufficient broadband traffic to justify having such advanced equipment.

They're working on gaining a SONET optical carrier link to Venezuela as we speak. This will increase Cuba's capacity for digital communications by a 1000 times what they have now. What the Cubans need is a bigger pipe to the internet, Doug.

Enemies of the Internet’ authors are enemies of the truth


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

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