I've never considered my body as an ornament I've always appreciated the miraculous things it can do I don't know if that makes a difference in the way I approach ageing or not.

Certainly after birthing and nursing six children I'm not as perky as I once was, but they are healthy, don't get caught in my jeans zipper and still attract attention.

My arms my have a little more movement than they once did, but I'm stronger than a lot of younger women.

I feel empowered by the things I've experienced and the things I've survived.

And I hope to live to a ripe old age with lots of grandchildren and great grandchildren.

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: earthmother ]

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Certainly after birthing and nursing six children I'm not as perky as I once was, but they are healthy, don't get caught in my jeans zipper and still attract attention.

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I struggled silently through the last half of my twenties, trying to come to terms with something I hadn't enough sense to be aware of. I lived recklessly, tearing away at nothing, at the night, at fate, at something I could feel was following me into the street. Always at my back. I can laugh now, but there's a bitter taste. I'm still young, but a part of me has arrived already, it would seem. The glass of water that I placed just now on the desk is going to fall. It hasn't yet, but it is about to.

The poem seems to me to be raging against death not old age, and to be cognizant of the things in front of you and appreciate them in their time not wish them away.

Why do you feel ageing requires passivity?

It is surely not for the faint of heart.

Wisdom too comes with an heavy price tag and is not borne on shoulders that cannot bear the weight of grief, and knowledge that one would rather not have.

What is it that you are fighting? Age will come regardless. Some women feel demeaned by age because they have swallowed the youth myth of western culture.

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: clersal ]

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The worst thing is the palpable reality of one's own death.

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Maybe I'm just not close enough yet, but even in that I find strength. It helps me to realize that we are all made of the same star stuff and that we all need each other. It helps me to realize the stupidity of war, and the absolute
unconscionable act it is to not have programs fully supportive of all societies human needs. Which extent beyond bare subsistence and flimsy shelter.

We already know that babies who are not properly tended to will on the one hand die of failure to thrive or on the other hand be unable to form human attachments.

Funny, speaking to my old friend Lea Roback, who lived to be well over 90 and remained a militant to the end, she was certainly happy to be alive and not at all a glum person, but had no truck with those who saw the ageing process as something positive. It made it harder for her to get around, to demonstrations! Perhaps because neither of us had children - or any desire to.

I'm wondering why you decided to put this thread in feminism - I'd think a discussion of ageing would fit better in body and soul. Of course women are judged more harshly and our (male) partners tend to leave us for younger women (here I'm talking about heterosexual women, talking with a lesbian friend of mine about this topic the issues are a bit different but exist just the same) but I don't think fear or anxiety about ageing is limited to women, or there wouldn't be such a business in hair transplants or dealing with men's performance anxiety.

This thread, to me, fits in both the feminism forum and the Body and Soul forum - just depending on what aspects of aging we focus on. I think aging is definitely a feminist topic as it pertains to women - women lose a lot of their social value in our culture as they age, and it is portrayed as an extremely negative thing.

I didn't see earthmother say anywhere that you're not a feminist because you don't like aging. We all go through things in our lives that make some of us feel bad and others of us feel empowered. I don't see you as anti-feminist - if anything by your post you seem to be railing against the same thing that the rest of us are - that women as they age start being considered less valuable as partners.

Please let's not get into an internet hair-pulling contest. I do not enjoy being berated by someone I don't even know.

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Or are you insinuating that I'm not a feminist because I think ageing is the pits?

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One of the worst things about aging is the realization that one will not, after all, change the world.
The second worst thing is the realization that it doesn't matter a damn whether one tried to change the world or not.
The worst thing is the palpable reality of one's own death.

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Like it or not, we are judged by the standards of our society, and it is far harder for a woman my age (almost 50) to meet someone than it was when I was 20 or 30. I don't like that, I don't want to be a eunuch, female or otherwise.

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As if I would go out with some reactionary idiot just because he was in my age group. Now, with the rise of the antiglobalisation movement, there is a whole new wave of militants, but I could be their mother. I would never go out with someone who was not a committed leftist, or a cultivated person.

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That is my right, and it doesn't mean that I am not concerned for the welfare of children or horrified at their mistreatment.

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That you don't hate children in the abstract isn't the point, lagatta... It's just that you are very negative about them in any concrete context. I'm not saying you have to or should like kids, but when you're talking to a group of women, many of whom have not only had children but find the bearing and rearing of them empowering, being very negative can be taken as rather an insult.

In the extreme, it shows a lack of respect for a chosen path. I don't think anybody here has expressed nearly the negativity about your choice not to have children that you have expressed over having to deal with them in any way, shape or form. In fact, personally, I fully support the choice of not having children. Many of my closest friends have made that choice.

I am in my late 30s. I'm starting to notice changes -- laugh lines that don't fade when I'm serious, grey hairs starting to come in at the temples, an extra few pounds that don't want to disappear, a little less elasticity in the belly than younger mothers...

I have very mixed feelings about aging. On one hand, I'm not altogether positive about it. I've always looked considerably younger than I am, 5 or 10 years depending on the day. I think I will miss looking very young, will miss the looks I used to get. On the other hand, I'm very comfortable with my age and the space I'm in, more so all the time. I would never want to be 20-something again.

But now I'm a few months from 25, and I don't know, I get older every day, but still, I'm ID'd at bars. I don't really think about it. I've two grandparents in their nineties, one greatgrandfather lived to 100, a greatgrandmother to 96, so I consider 'old' to be like 80.

Well, strike that. My dad is in his 60s, and he's old. Mom is in her late fifties, but I don't think of her as old. So I guess old to me 60s.

I don't fear getting old, it happens to everyone lucky enough to live that long.

When I was growing up, I was cut off from the generation before my parents due to distance form my extended family. I had no idea what aging would mean. The maximum age of anyone I saw with any frequency was early forties, and that, at the time, seemed ancient to me. I never considered aging until my grandparents began passing away (still at a distance, I never saw them ill) and watching my Dad become extremely unhealthy. But the prospect still remains oddly not frightening.

Do I worry that I may not be healthy as I age? Well, of course I do. But the prospect of death is not restricted to the aged in our society and I will be happy to be alive each day until the inevitable happens, hopefully well after I finish my "to read" list, which grows daily

tick

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I'm looking back now from a very different situation. Everyone I know has had to accept, by their late fifties or sixties, that one bit of the sky or other is going to fall any day now. I'm not exactly used to it, either, boy -- some days I am scared stiff; some days I'm depressed at what age does to us; some days I'm really nostalgic for my own younger self, the way she looked, her energy, her freedom. And there are some other younger selves I miss a lot too.

I guess, in answer to the topic question, I'd say that I have every mood possible at different times when I think of aging. It can be exceptionally cruel -- it can really break spirits, and I'm committed now to forcing a lot of people to face just how hard we make life for the old, how little we credit their fears and their desires. Some day, when I'm free, I'm gonna get very in-your-face with the politicians and the bureaucrats ... *smiley makes a muscle*

But some days I think of the 85-yr-old and the 89-yr-old I know best, and my breath is taken away by how brave and creative they are. And some days I feel ok m'self.

The reason I was curious is that I really felt like I was crossing a line when I turned 29... perhaps the impending 'doom' of turning 30 was stronger for the year that it loomed than it was for the day that it happened. More interestingly a number of friends had the same experience: 29 bad, 30 OK.

As to aging in general, I fear the breakdowns, but mostly I fear death. My fond hope is that as one gets older this fear "magically" gives way to a quiet acceptance of one's place in the cycle of life. If not, I pledge that I shall not go quietly into that good night! On the other hand, I'm strengthened by seeing older people such as my wife's grandmother, who's only a year or so shy of 100. She's got a bad heart, she creaks when she walks, but her mind is 100% there, and all the brighter for having spent a century on this planet. She still shops, cooks, gardens and lives at home with her son (my father in law).

Interestingly, she's happy, but she kind of wants to die. Not enough to nudge it along, but I think she's kind of looking ahead to it. I envy that. Even if I don't make it to "the big one-oh-oh", I hope that when my time comes I can face it with a bit of curiousity and acceptance.

I found turning 50 to be at best, an experience which provoked a certain introspection. There seem to be things I can't do as well anymore. There are aspects of my health I can't take for granted anymore. There is also the inevitable process of evaluating your life to date. I guess I'd have to say I feel OK about that more times than not.

I come from fairly long lived stock, as does my wifes family, so I've had, and still have many inspiring role models on how to live lifes later stages with energy, productivity, humour, style and class. I've learned that when the inevitable comes, you can even die with style and grace.

Life begins at 30, baby! And I'm determined to be saying that at 40 and 50 too.

But Mr. Magoo, I agree with you - I'm scared of death too. I'm more serene about it than I used to be, but whenever faced with something that might possibly somehow lead to death, I get absolutely terrified.

[ 10 January 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]

20 was okay. None of my 20-something birthdays were difficult. I cried at 30. Not so much because of the years, but I had a presentiment that it was going to be a tough year, and it was. Trials by fire, rapid and sweeping life changes. I wouldn't want to do that year over, but I learned some very valuable things through it.

I'll be 37 in one month (I note Rebecca is another Aquarian! I might have guessed.). The blond guy is having much more trouble with 43 (a few days before my birthday -- we share a cake). I was thinking about being older when I was at the gym this morning -- some of the young 'uns routinely lap me now. In my 20s, very few could catch me. So I see myself slowing a bit...

I'm not worried about getting old. I'm more concerned about dying young. My father died at 54, and there was so much he didn't get to do. I'm hoping to be a very old woman someday, but in the meantime, I'm going to make sure I get as much as I can from today.

Edited to add: I think skdadl made a good point about turning 40. You do think about babies at this late-30s, early-40s point. I've had two in my mid-30s, and we've set my 40th birthday as the final decision-point on whether there will be more, and that's based on my aging process. I think it will be a time of much reflection and some hard decisions, regardless which path we settle on.

[ 10 January 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

I am fast approaching mid-30's. I am annoyed that it has taken me so long to get my act together and keep my body in healthier shape (ie dropping 70 lbs so far and getting exercise). I am annoyed that now that I have taken this leap, I notice the wrinkles coming in full force, and now I get to battle stretch marks and skin folds too. I am annoyed that when and IF I find a husband, I am going to have more difficulties in not only getting pregnant, but carrying the child to term. I am annoyed that I can't seem to flit about like I used to. I am annoyed that I don't have the energy I once had.

Am I looking forward to the rest of the changes bound to affect my life? Not particularly. I was lucky to be blessed with no cramps or real pain during menstration, I feel icky for about an hour, like I ate something not quite right. Do I look forawrd to trading that for hot flashes and moodiness... nope. Do I look forward to less mobility that I have now, and the eventual knee replacement surgery I WILL need on both knees thanks to arthritis? Nope. (never let anyone tell you that training and showing horses won't hurt you in the long run)

But, I DO look forward to what the future might hold. I DO look forward to being a Mom someday. I DO look forward to watching that child grow up and conquer his/her own achievements. I DO look forward to spending time with someone I love as we get older.

This ageing crap sucks. But I guess life's joys make some of it worth the effort.

[ 10 January 2003: Message edited by: shelby9 ]

5 years later, my life has changed a lot. I have a good job and a bit more focus in my career, I own a home (which I share with a canine friend). OK, I'm still single and childless, but you can't have it all, I suppose.

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Now that's something that still bothers me - not having any more kids. One more would've been great.

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I expect that I will feel that way in a few years, too.

Funny, as I repeat I know or have known older people who are or were (thinking of Lea who died not long ago) very positive about life - Léa, Michel Chartrand, another friend in France who was a resistance fighter, it goes on... But all of them, while not wanting to die, say the ageing process profoundly sucks.

[ 10 January 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]

As with anything else, aging is a mixed bag.

Since about 35, I've gained 15 pounds. Before that, I always had to eat more than everyone else and workout regularly to maintain a 'manly' weight. Otherwise, as a teenager I could have been the proverbial 98lb weakling. Of course, the weight I've gained now isn't the kind I'm used to carrying; it's mostly around my waist.

I haven't had any of the nastier side effects of aging. I have all my hair, and I'm graying slowly and evenly.

In the last five years (since about 40) I've noticed something that bothered me at first, but I've come to recognize as a bit of a blessing. I'm less sexually driven. In my younger days, all it took was a stiff breeze, so to speak. I still enjoy sex in an appropriate context, but I no longer get instantaneous erections at the sight of an attractive woman walking down the street, for example.

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Unfortunately, it is socially as well, and women are judged far more harshly than men for no longer being in the first bloom of youth. The pits.

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I think that depends on context to some degree. I'm finding that in my profession, women get more respect and deal with a lot less shit as they get older. The old boys in the male-dominated industry are less likely to view you as purely ornamental.

Unfortunately I don't have a steady partner (I have met someone very interesting, and interested, several months ago, but it remains to be see what will develop, as he lives across the pond. I am returning to Europe in a couple of weeks, fortunately, I've been able to go several times to interpret at conferences.) It is far far harder to meet someone after an age that is now actually very young in terms of the projected lifespan of women in the developed world.

It is different of course if one has a steady partner, but nothing is certain in life. My best friend's husband dropped dead on her a few years back, at only 52.

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Agree about the ornamental stuff, and respect to a certain extent, but it is much harder to get a JOB when you are older (remember, I'm about 10 years older than you). Not contract work, but a job that could provide any benefits or security.

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Certainly, I've seen that to be true, if a regular job is something you want. My closest friend is 10 years older than I am, and I hear her viewpoint on things quite often. I do think, though, that any job security is largely illusory. In my case, at least at this stage, I prefer being on my own. Certainly in my area, age gives one a little more credibility.

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It is far far harder to meet someone after an age that is now actually very young in terms of the projected lifespan of women in the developed world.

It is different of course if one has a steady partner, but nothing is certain in life. My best friend's husband dropped dead on her a few years back, at only 52.

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I'm sure that's true. Pickings were definitely getting slimmer around the 30-mark, and I have a number of friends who are still single or single again. And I've had a first-hand look at life stopped short at that stage, as my father died at 54. I'd certainly like to see my mother, now 60, find someone to spend some time with, but it's hard on several levels for her.

On the other hand, my grandmother was widowed at about 58, and has always had a gentleman (or two) paying court. Still does at 87. Nearly 30 years of mature dating!

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It does rankle me when people deny the indignities of ageing, or the enduring discrimination against women.

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I don't think I'm denying either... I worked in a nursing home for 5 years while I was in university, as a nurse's aide. I've seen the indignities of aging up close and developed some strong personal relationships with people at the end of their lives. Even after I quit, I still came to visit a few who became very special to me, one of whom was 70 years my senior. It was a good friendship, we each had something to offer the other.

But there is some up side to the aging process, here and there. Much of it has to do with attitude.

My friend has dated since, but nothing serious.

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I'm glad to see the example of "mature dating" - too bad things are so rough for your mum.

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Well, my parents spent 32 years together, so starting over is understandably very hard. And my father was the force behind the social life, my mother is more shy. Add to that the fact that most of her social circle are married couples, and you have a big barrier before you ever get to the question of age. It also doesn't help that she is also currently raising a teenager, which takes a fair bit of energy, even though she's a really good kid.