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Author Topic: Veggiie Thread
RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14629

posted 22 August 2008 10:02 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Please advise a proper title.

I'm sorry Michelle but closing the thread was not enough.

Why aren't the anti-racism principles stuck to? I don't think I even saw a moderator action to stick to anti-racism principles besides locking the thread. That's not productive.

The subject that started this has not been acknowledged as wrong and probably gone worse off thread.

That's where I can see why you closed it but it's not a topic we should shy away from.

[ 22 August 2008: Message edited by: RevolutionPlease ]


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 22 August 2008 10:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What thread is this about anyway? I think I missed it.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14629

posted 22 August 2008 10:08 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=001287

Thanks Cue.


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 22 August 2008 10:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 22 August 2008 10:12 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
Please advise a proper title.
May I suggest "Veggie thread closed thread closed"?

This was the Veggie thread.

This was the Veggie thread closed thread.

And the present thread is the Veggie thread closed thread closed thread.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14629

posted 22 August 2008 10:36 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks dude.
From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11463

posted 22 August 2008 10:59 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Couldn't we compromise and bond over asparagus spears?
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 22 August 2008 11:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All I can say is that if Al Q is saying that he was talking about people "chucking spears at him", and not "spearchuckers" then that is the case.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 23 August 2008 03:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're right, RP, I should have been more clear about why I was closing the thread, and what the problem with it was.

The other thread degenerated into a bunch of people with skin privilege making jokes about "political correctness" and mocking those who raised concerns about excluding language.

The thread was started because a moderator closed another thread due to insensitive and excluding language. It was made clear in both the thread we closed and the rabble reactions thread that we understood that it was not al-Q's INTENTION to post something with racist baggage attached to it. But we felt there was a clear connection between what he posted and a racist epithet, even if that wasn't his intention, so we closed it.

Not satisfied with this explanation, some of the people in the thread started on their usual political-correctness-mocking exercise, ridiculing those who raised the concern. We put up with it for a while, answered the mocking for a while, but by the time I ended the thread, it had gotten to be too much, so I closed it.

So let me be clear here and now, and hopefully this will address your concern, RP, which I understand and support. That reactions thread was a perfect example of people trying to put across an anti-racist perspective respectfully. We gave al-Q the benefit of the doubt regarding his intentions. We tried to explain what the problem was and the connection was between the phrase he used and a common racist epithet. And then we had all of it thrown back in our faces with mocking and ridicule. This, to me, is not what babble should be about. How welcoming do you think this place would be to a racialized person who just happened upon that thread?

I understand what it's like to feel backed into a corner when I've said something that I didn't mean to offend people and they've gotten upset. I know that my first reaction is to get upset as well and argue back. I've done that lots of times on babble, so I understand where that feeling comes from. But that's why I think a number of us tried, at the beginning of the thread, to make it very clear that we understood that no racism was intended, but that the end result was that the phrase still evoked racist imagery for a number of us.

I feel that the reactions thread was not started in good faith, and that was clear by how a number of babblers responded to the explanations offered within that thread. Disagreement and working through it is one thing - mocking and ridicule is another.

Threads devoted to mocking "political correctness" and people who try to post from an anti-racist perspective (even if we disagree about what that is, as we clearly do) have no place on this discussion forum.

And if this thread continues where the other one left off, I will be closing it too.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7126

posted 23 August 2008 07:04 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Babble has a dominant cultural of defensive white liberalism. As long as this is the dominant cultural of babble this will be a racist space. Because babble is a racist space it will continue to have a dominant culture of defensive white liberalism.

This is why racialized people are chased off this board with good intentions. This is why babble is an embarrassing joke with many people that I hang with in the non-cyber activist community.


From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 23 August 2008 08:46 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I feel that the reactions thread was not started in good faith, and that was clear by how a number of babblers responded to the explanations offered within that thread. Disagreement and working through it is one thing - mocking and ridicule is another.

I started that thread in good faith, and it's too bad you took my comments as "mocking and ridicule," since I was serious in my concerns.

I thought the response to my comments was a knee-jerk reaction to two words being adjacent to each other. I suppose linking them to a racist epithet was an easy leap.

I apologise if I offended anyone.

That said, since everyone is so sensitive to language, in that thread I used a fairly commonplace term that I think people of African descent might take as insulting. I did this just to see if anyone would notice.

I'm pretty sure someone like Malcolm X would have picked up on it.

Some racist slurs are obvious, some are found even when they aren't intended, and some are embedded in everyday speech and not given a second thought.

[ 23 August 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 23 August 2008 09:36 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps because "pilloried" as a punishment, has not just been used against persons of African descent? Pillories were used long before the slave trade in NA.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14629

posted 23 August 2008 09:51 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

I started that thread in good faith, and it's too bad you took my comments as "mocking and ridicule," since I was serious in my concerns.

I thought the response to my comments was a knee-jerk reaction to two words being adjacent to each other. I suppose linking them to a racist epithet was an easy leap.

I apologise if I offended anyone.

That said, since everyone is so sensitive to language, in that thread I used a fairly commonplace term that I think people of African descent might take as insulting. I did this just to see if anyone would notice.

I'm pretty sure someone like Malcolm X would have picked up on it.

Some racist slurs are obvious, some are found even when they aren't intended, and some are embedded in everyday speech and not given a second thought.

[ 23 August 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


Even Malcolm X would have taught us to progress beyond playground humour.

Why the problem with using those choice of words?

Can't see why it's offensive?


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14629

posted 23 August 2008 10:37 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are we supposed to nitpick u now?
From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 24 August 2008 12:44 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Perhaps because "pilloried" as a punishment, has not just been used against persons of African descent? Pillories were used long before the slave trade in NA.


Nope, but thanks for trying.

I hope the moderators don't shut this thread down, because I think this is a useful way to test our assumptions about what we say.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7126

posted 24 August 2008 06:20 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That said, since everyone is so sensitive to language, in that thread I used a fairly commonplace term that I think people of African descent might take as insulting. I did this just to see if anyone would notice.

Really? Are you that fucking arrogant that after saying something that is racist you fight, fight, fight and then slip in other racist expressions to "see if anyone would notice". My opinion of you has changed dramatically. You may not have been aware of the implications of what you originally said. I didn't even fault you for it but it needed to be addressed. But you did nothing but argue about how not racist you are, complete with anecdotes about when you stopped "real racism" and when you were a victim of racism. Now you brag about how you slipped other racist language in to "see if anyone would notice". Fuck you. You're a fucking arrogant racist and you should be embarrassed but instead you hold your head high with pride and continue to look down on anyone who questions your purity.

[ 24 August 2008: Message edited by: Le Téléspectateur ]


From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 August 2008 06:40 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
LT, I agree with you that his description of what he did really sucks. But it is also against babble policy to personally attack someone like that, and I think you know it. Please restrain yourself.

al-Q, what you've claimed to have done is really offensive. What LT said, without the swearing and personal attacks. I'm sorry, but if you're treating babblers like guinea pigs and trying to "test" the people who are trying to make this a more inclusive space by slipping in stuff you think might be racist or offensive and seeing if they notice, that is really obnoxious and not in the spirit of this discussion forum.

And yes, that DOES mean that you were posting in bad faith in that last thread. Your behaviour in this case has been completely disrespectful. You should be ashamed of yourself. I'm completely disgusted.

[ 24 August 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 August 2008 06:44 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I hope the moderators don't shut this thread down, because I think this is a useful way to test our assumptions about what we say.

No, actually, it's not. I think this is a way for you to assert your privelege, and I'm not having it. Your little "game" stops here.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 24 August 2008 11:47 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, that reaction was predictable, anyway.

quote:
I'm sorry, but if you're treating babblers like guinea pigs and trying to "test" the people who are trying to make this a more inclusive space by slipping in stuff you think might be racist or offensive and seeing if they notice, that is really obnoxious and not in the spirit of this discussion forum.

Why obnoxious? Why not consider it challenging?

It's pretty easy to get on a moral high horse about something obvious. One probably even feels better about oneself when doing so. It might be a little tougher to recognise the implications of the less obvious.

And yes, I see the irony in what I just wrote.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14629

posted 24 August 2008 02:03 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's all very interesting Al-Q but I can't take you seriously. Perhaps if I came to rabble for my Yuk-Yuks.
From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938

posted 25 August 2008 04:27 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've been reading these reactions threads and not responding, feeling for the most part that any contribution I would make would not aid the situation.

One could argue that my uncensored comment started this series of threads. One could also argue that I was responding to a racist comment. Those arguments are over, but I'm left with a sense of obligation to say something, and here it is.

quote:
It's pretty easy to get on a moral high horse about something obvious. One probably even feels better about oneself when doing so. It might be a little tougher to recognise the implications of the less obvious.

Would it help anyone out there to know that I let 9 comments go before I respond to the 10th? And that I do this because I'm fully aware that Every Time I respond I'm fully aware I will be faced with denials, counter-accusations and defensivesness, and that all times out of ten it's not worth it to me anymore? For this particular time, that comment was so over the top that I had to say something.

For the record, I don't feel better, or good about myself, or smug or self-satisfied whenever I have the misfortune to read so-called progressives typing this shit. When I was first on babble I spent time and energy typing out responses such as "You may not be aware that "abc" is a racist slur" or "I'm sure you didn't intend for this to be offensive, but saying "abc" can be interpreted as racist and oppressive by some people." I know that some hear this language better than "Are you fucking kidding me?" But, some respond in the exact same way. Read past AR forum threads. I'll bump one if anyone wants an example.

Later, such shit made me want to cry, kick someone and never hang out with white and white-identified lefties again. In that order. Now it no longer surprises me, but it still pisses me off.

I will add to the above comments, as Michelle has done repeatedly in these threads, that I'm far from perfect, I fuck up, and my learning is ongoing. I say this sincerely and truthfully.

I've written previously that sometimes, in these struggles, language we use may not be as "nice' or as "helpful" as it could or should be when challenging. Sometimes we are so pissed off that no "polite" language will come. I've seen feminists argue here that they will refuse to be polite, to be reassuring, etc, to insecure men about blanket statements about sexism and misogyny, why should they, etc. No such strong statement can be made here on babble about race and racism. So, once in a while, my uncensored voice will appear.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fartful Codger
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9019

posted 25 August 2008 04:53 PM      Profile for Fartful Codger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:

For the record, I don't feel better, or good about myself, or smug or self-satisfied whenever I have the misfortune to read so-called progressives typing this shit. When I was first on babble I spent time and energy typing out responses such as "You may not be aware that "abc" is a racist slur" or "I'm sure you didn't intend for this to be offensive, but saying "abc" can be interpreted as racist and oppressive by some people." I know that some hear this language better than "Are you fucking kidding me?" But, some respond in the exact same way. Read past AR forum threads. I'll bump one if anyone wants an example.

Later, such shit made me want to cry, kick someone and never hang out with white and white-identified lefties again. In that order. Now it no longer surprises me, but it still pisses me off.


[/lurking]
I for one hope that there will continue to be people like yourself will bring attention to the stuff that crops up on boards like this. I get the frustration that you're expressing: it doesn't seem fair that the education of the masses falls on your shoulders. That's fair, except that you know something that I don't know and the only reason I read through sites like this is to learn and read perspectives other than my own. Like many in this country, I grew up in a community so rife with racist attitudes that we repeat hurtful sayings/comments/expressions with no idea of what potential damage/hurt we're causing. That's my baggage, I know, but unless someone tells me I've crossed a line, how do I learn?

I also recognize that this requires a leap of faith on your part: you have to trust that whoever is reading this is genuine in their desire to change. Of course you can never know for sure, which is where the leap of faith comes in. Having no access to the user logs of the site I'm guessing on this, but I suspect there are more readers than posters to this board, so the comments you might read in reply may not represent the view of the readership, but just the ones who have gall to log in and post.

Put another way: there are few topics on which I have reasonable level of expertise - moreso than the average person on the street. People will ask my advice on those few topics. All I can do be as earnest as I can be and hope that what I say has an impact. What those people do with the information I give is completely up to them. But if I don't share the knowledge I have, what's the use of having it in the first place? Most of the people who post here want to change the world for the better. Sometimes it means changing the people who we think should already know better but don't. That's why I appreciate honest, earnest posts on threads like these.

[Back-To.lurking]


From: In my chair | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

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