quote:

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Under the theme of "Journey of Harmony," the Beijing Olympic Torch Relay started its worldwide journey on April 1, 2008. The sacred flame has so far passed through Almaty in Kazakhstan, Istanbul in Turkey, St. Petersburg in Russia and London in Britain. People along the Torch Relay route have extended the flame a warm welcome and the relay is proceeding successfully as planned.

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quote:

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Seeing the Olympic Torch Relay as a way to support the Beijing Olympics and to rehearse for the 2014 Olympic Winter Games, the city of St. Petersburg attached great importance to the event and used first-rate resources to facilitate a successful relay.

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Heh, well, I guess none of that is actually false! I mean, every country along the route so far has "attached great importance to the event" and "used first-rate resources to facilitate a successful relay". In other words, countries have been forced to devote as much security to the relay as they would a controversial visiting head of state because of the protests.

The protests have been fabulous. Non-violent, and they've completely overshadowed the torch relay itself. The only media on the planet who has covered the torch relay as opposed to the protests seems to be Chinese newspapers and television.

By the way, Doug, at the bottom of that article, they do mention the protests - they just minimize them as a "small number" of Tibet activists.

quote:

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The Olympic Torch Relay embodies the Olympic spirit and represents the earnestness and excitement with which the world awaits the Olympic Games. A small number of "pro-Tibet independence" activists have attempted to sabotage the event. During the Greece leg of the relay, a few activists attempted to stop the relay by lying on the street. In London, a few protesters planned and carried out several destructive actions. One "pro-Tibet independence" activist tried to grab the torch and another attempted to extinguish the flame when well-known U.K. television presenter Konnie Huq was carrying the torch in northwest London. Their actions were stopped by local police, although Konnie Huq sustained a slight injury. During a lunch break, several "pro-Tibet independence" activists got past security in an attempt to clash with torchbearers and disturb the relay. The British police were successful in preventing these efforts.

Local people in London strongly opposed the attempt to sabotage the Torch Relay. And the behavior of "pro-Tibet independence" activists has aroused resentment and received condemnation in London.

---

[ 09 April 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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LIKE EVERYBODY else, I support the right of the Tibetan people to independence, or at least autonomy. Like everybody else, I condemn the actions of the Chinese government there. But unlike everybody else, I am not ready to join in the demonstrations.

Why? Because I have an uneasy feeling that somebody is washing my brain, that what is going on is an exercise in hypocrisy. ...

I support the Tibetans in spite of it being obvious that the Americans are exploiting the struggle for their own purposes. Clearly, the CIA has planned and organized the riots, and the American media are leading the world-wide campaign. It is a part of the hidden struggle between the US, the reigning super-power, and China, the rising super-power - a new version of the "Great Game" that was played in central Asia in the 19th century by the British Empire and Russia. Tibet is a token in this game.

I am even ready to ignore the fact that the gentle Tibetans have carried out a murderous pogrom against innocent Chinese, killing women and men and burning homes and shops. Such detestable excesses do happen during a liberation struggle.

---

quote:

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It was invented in its modern form by the organisers of the 1936 Olympics in Berlin.
And it was planned with immense care by the Nazi leadership to project the image of the Third Reich as a modern, economically dynamic state with growing international influence.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
The protests have been fabulous. Non-violent, and they've completely overshadowed the torch relay itself.

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But in any event they are organized under false pretences. Although they wear signs saying "Free Tibet" they make statements about "semi-autonomy for Tibet, along the lines of Hong Kong." But the media are failing to check the official website of the Tibetan "government in exile" or CTA:

quote:

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The Tibetan people, both in and outside Tibet, look to the CTA as their sole and legitimate representative. . .

The CTA has set itself the twin task of rehabilitating Tibetan refugees and restoring freedom and happiness in Tibet. . .

Today, the CTA functions as a veritable government, and has all the departments and attributes of a free democratic administration. It must be noted, though, that the CTA is not designed to take power in Tibet. In his manifesto for future Tibet entitled Guidelines for Future Tibet’s Polity and Basic Features of its Constitution, His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the present exile administration would be dissolved as soon as freedom was restored in Tibet. The Tibetans currently residing in Tibet, he said, would head the government of free Tibet, not the members of the exile administration. He said that there would be a transitional government in Tibet which would be headed by an Interim-President, elected or appointed by him. To this Interim-President His Holiness would transfer all his temporal power. The Interim-President, in his turn, would be required to hold a general election within two years and then hand over the power to the popularly elected government.

---

Human rights groups on Tuesday warned protesters against targeting the Olympic torch on its route through San Francisco, saying further disruption to the troubled relay could backfire.

quote:

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...trying to take a torch from a woman in a wheelchair is giving a bad image to people demonstrating for human rights in China.

Lucie Morillon, of press watchdog Reporters Without Borders, said a repeat of the scenes in London and Paris could hand China a propaganda victory. "Violence against the torch could backfire and give ammunition for Chinese propaganda."

---

quote:

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Police were forced at least three times to put out the torch and carried it onto a bus, as police cleared protesters from the route.

On the second occasion, the flame was being relayed out of a Paris traffic tunnel by an athlete in a wheelchair.

London's relay saw protesters trying to douse and even snatch the Olympic flame as athletes and celebrities carried it through the city.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
Wonderful article.

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quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
It is pretty good.

Too bad about his decontextualized analysis of Kosovo, however.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
Wonderful article.

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quote:

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THERE IS no doubt that the Tibetan people are entitled to rule their own country, to nurture their unique culture, to promote their religious institutions and to prevent foreign settlers from submerging them.

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As noted here Tibetans are a majority in the province now designated as Tibet, and in Qinghai Province (or most of it), and in Sichuan Province's Garzê Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture. There are other regions where Tibetan protests have been reported which were historically part of Tibet but Tibetans are now in a minority -- the Kosovo dilemma.

"Free Tibet?" Which Tibet?

The Tibetan Parliament-in-Exile consists of 46 members. U-Tsang, Do-tod and Do-med, the three traditional provinces of Tibet, elect ten members each. As this map shows that's a claim to substantial parts of four other provinces of China as well as today's Tibet.

[ 09 April 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Proaxiom:
From what is it 'clear' that the CIA is organizing the riots and protests?

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You'll have to ask Uri Avnery. He said it. The violence in the late 1950s is now known to have been CIA-organized, so maybe he was just relying on those memories, who knows.

quote:

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On the why Tibet? question, I think there is a reasonably easy principle we can apply when considering whether a national or ethnic group's struggle for autonomy or independence should be internationally supported: Is that group fairly represented by the government it is currently under?

---

Wrong question, IMO. Every nation has a right to self-determination. That means, if by legitimate expression of the people, it wants to separate from, or join with, others in a single state, it must have that right without external coercion.

I know of no evidence - whatsoever - that the Tibetan people want to separate from China. Therefore, for us to support such a call would constitute interference. In the case of the kind of racist violence, arson and murder which took place last month, that must be condemned no matter what the demands being put forward.

I support Québec's absolute right to self-determination, for example. I hope other Canadians would as well (although I know not all do). [I don't happen to believe Québec should separate, but that's just my view.] That means if Quebeckers decide to leave, they must not be coerced to stay. But for some Chinese (say) to support Québec independence would be interference and ought to be condemned.

quote:

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The Olympic torch relay in Tibet will be a complete success, Qiangba Puncog, the chairman of the Tibet regional government, told reporters here on Wednesday.

"I have noticed that recently, some secessionists undertook some activities in London and Paris," he told a press conference.

These people regard the Beijing Olympic Games as an opportunity to make trouble, he said, "Therefore, I don't doubt they will create trouble during the torch relay in Tibet."

But the actions of a few could not affect the situation, he said. "We will fully prepare for it and the Olympic torch relay in Tibet will be a complete success."

The regional government head also said that the Dalai Lama had been trying to stir up more unrest in Tibet through "appeals" and "statements" issued after the Lhasa violence because "he is unwilling to see the situation be calm and normal life in Lhasa restored."

The Dalai Lama tried to deny the organized violence in Lhasa and called it a "peaceful demonstration" while attempting to stir up hostility among ethnic groups in Tibet and internationalize the so-called "Tibet issue", he said.

The violence on March 14 claimed at least 19 lives, with hundreds of shops torched. The losses have been put at about 280 million yuan (39.9 million U.S. dollars), Qiangba Puncog said, citing latest official statistics.

After the riots, the local government acted fast to restore public facilities such as electricity and telecommunications and compensate the victims, said the chairman.

The families of 18 innocent civilians killed in the incident have received compensation, while affected factories and businesses were subsidized by the government to offset their losses, he said.

"People in Lhasa have returned to their normal lives," he said.

But Qiangba Puncog confirmed that some temples have not re-opened.

"It will take some time for Tibet to recover from the unrest, including aspects of its economic life such as tourism," he said. "We will pull it back on track as soon as possible."

Local police have detained 953 people suspected of participating in the violence in Lhasa, 403 of whom were formally arrested, he said.

Further, 362 people surrendered to law enforcement authorities, and 328 have been released because of the minor nature of their offenses and their willingness to cooperate.

The police put 93 suspects on the wanted list and have already arrested 13 of them.

---

"For these separatist forces, the Olympics in Beijing will be a rare opportunity," Champa Phuntsok said in Beijing.

Xiangba Pingcuo, the party chairman for Tibet, was asked by a journalist to identify the main cause of instability in the Himalayan autonomous region and immediately responded, "the Dalai clique and its secessionist activities."

Not many in the West understand China's concern that separatists in Tibet could feed the flames of separatism in other places, such as the large northwestern autonomous region of Xinjiang, which borders Tibet.

quote:

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Xinjiang, despite years of Han Chinese migration to the region, still has a majority Muslim population and a sometimes violent independence movement. Earlier this month, again according to state media, authorities foiled a terrorist attack on a China Southern Airlines flight that took off from the Xinjiang capital of Urumqi for Beijing. Details of the alleged attack were maddeningly sketchy, however, so it is hard to say what really happened.

Nevertheless, it is clear that Chinese leaders live in constant fear of those who would break up a nation that it has taken so much work (and so many lives) to put back together - and those fears are not confined to sprawling autonomous western regions but also include Hong Kong, which returned to the motherland in 1997 after more than 150 years of British rule. Taiwan - which Beijing claims as another stolen child and where China-friendly Ma Ying-jeou won a landslide victory in the presidential election last weekend over his more independence-minded rival, Frank Hsieh Chang-ting - also figures into the Tibet equation.

---

It said:

quote:

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The Tibetan nationality is one of the nationalities with a long history within the boundaries of China.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
You'll have to ask Uri Avnery. He said it. The violence in the late 1950s is now known to have been CIA-organized, so maybe he was just relying on those memories, who knows.

---

It sounds a bit odd to state something is 'clearly' true, without offering any reason to think it is less than 100% speculation.

quote:

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Wrong question, IMO. Every nation has a right to self-determination. That means, if by legitimate expression of the people, it wants to separate from, or join with, others in a single state, it must have that right without external coercion.

---

If a broad consensus of the people want to separate, and they are being fairly represented in the government, then they must be able to.

quote:

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Over the centuries the Tibetan lords and lamas had seen Chinese come and go, and had enjoyed good relations with Generalissimo Chiang Kaishek and his reactionary Kuomintang rule in China. The approval of the Kuomintang government was needed to validate the choice of the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. When the current 14th Dalai Lama was first installed in Lhasa, it was with an armed escort of Chinese troops and an attending Chinese minister, in accordance with centuries-old tradition. What upset the Tibetan lords and lamas in the early 1950s was that these latest Chinese were Communists. It would be only a matter of time, they feared, before the Communists started imposing their collectivist egalitarian schemes upon Tibet.

The issue was joined in 1956-57, when armed Tibetan bands ambushed convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army. The uprising received extensive assistance from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), including military training, support camps in Nepal, and numerous airlifts. Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a Free Asia, a CIA-financed front, energetically publicized the cause of Tibetan resistance, with the Dalai Lama’s eldest brother, Thubtan Norbu, playing an active role in that organization. The Dalai Lama's second-eldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, established an intelligence operation with the CIA as early as 1951. He later upgraded it into a CIA-trained guerrilla unit whose recruits parachuted back into Tibet.

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quote:

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To welcome the end of the old feudal theocracy in Tibet is not to applaud everything about Chinese rule in that country. This point is seldom understood by today’s Shangri-La believers in the West. The converse is also true: To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime.

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note: footnotes were omitted from the quotes

[ 09 April 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

Here's the source for Doug's photo above ...

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Free Tibet? Meanwhile, in Baghdad ...

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug:
Oh dear. I hope someone told them before they held this sign up too long:

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It said:

quote:The Tibetan nationality is one of the nationalities with a long history within the boundaries of China."

quote:

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
To put it another way, Tibet was "part of" China for fewer centuries than "FN"s have been "part of" Canada and the US.

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quote:

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The world media are shedding tears for the Tibetan people, whose land is taken from them by Chinese settlers. Who cares about the Palestinians, whose land is taken from them by our settlers?

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Avnery hasn't really said anything new here. Everybody who has two eyes can see that Tibetan independence is opportune for Washington. From a human rights perspective, the whole point is to exalt the Palestinian cause to the same level of respect afforded to Tibetans, not diminish the latter.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
I know of no evidence - whatsoever - that the Tibetan people want to separate from China. Therefore, for us to support such a call would constitute interference. In the case of the kind of racist violence, arson and murder which took place last month, that must be condemned no matter what the demands being put forward.

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quote:

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The Tibetan people have fully realized through the March 14 riot that harmony brings happiness to the people while unrest stands for misfortune.

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quote:

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The comments by Xiangba Pingcuo, who is also deputy Communist Party secretary of the remote, mountainous region Chinese troops marched into in 1950, were unusually frank.

The Chinese government is normally reluctant to even acknowledge it is talking to envoys of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader and Nobel laureate whom Beijing considers a separatist and traitor.

"We cannot call the talks negotiations now. They are just dialogue, or contact, but the channels for communication have always been smooth," Xiangba Pingcuo told reporters on the sidelines of China's annual parliament session.

Regional delegations typically meet during parliament to discuss the leadership's addresses, but this was the first year the Tibet meeting was open to reporters.

After the last round of dialogue in February on allowing more autonomy for the Buddhist region, envoys of the Dalai Lama said differences remained.

"There is a fundamental difference even in the approach in addressing the issue," envoy Lodi Gyari said in a statement.

But despite acknowledging the lack of progress so far, the governor said the process was continuing.

"We will have further discussions in future. But we haven't yet reached the stage of substantive negotiations," he said.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Proaxiom:
What do you mean by 'legitimate expression', though? Must we assume that Tibet wants to stay in China unless and until they hold a valid referendum?

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No one, including the head of the so-called unelected "government in exile", is calling for Tibet independence, so I think for foreigners to do so is, in essence, imperialist interference, warmongering, condescension, hypocrisy (because they don't like others trying to split up their own countries), and several other bad words I'll come up with.

quote:

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Originally posted by brookmere:

Or to put it in a closer context, Vietnam was "part of" China for a lot longer than Tibet ever was.

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Um, Tibet is part of China. The entire world recognizes that.

Québec is part of Canada. The entire world recognizes that. I do believe it ended up that way because of military conquest. Quebeckers certainly never voted to join Confederation.

quote:

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That many in China use the term "netizen" to refer to internet users reveals a culture of active web participation in a country where one in four internet users writes a blog and internet addiction is of greater concern than drug addiction.

The evidence of internet activism in response to the Tibet events suggests that harsh criticism of the west has predominated - a phenomenon that flies in the face of those optimists who believed that benign internet cosmopolitanism would leap blithely over the "great firewall". Social-networking sites such as Facebook, for example, have allowed thousands of Chinese students at home and overseas to join groups such as "Tibet WAS, IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China" - where members swap grievances, nationalistic proclamations, news updates, and YouTube videos. Meanwhile, Yahoo, Sohu, and other major web portals have provided sounding boards for jingoistic zeal, with calls for a stronger police response and the execution of Tibetan splittists rattling amidst general outrage over the spectre of a territorially divided China.

What this reveals is that state-controlled media no longer holds a monopoly over the Chinese readership. The most striking example of this has been the website Anti-CNN.com, which has catalogued and condemned the blunders of western reporting of Tibet. Indeed, one Xinhua headline used material from Anti-CNN.com to trumpet: "Netizens indignant, Western reports of Tibet incident stray from truth." As a result, Tibet became a concern for Chinese people beyond the range of devoted bloggers and net activists.

"What the authorities don't realise is that the people who are using these standards of objectivity to criticise CNN will eventually apply them to Xinhua and CCTV." "Yes", a listener chimed in. "The common people are very smart. Sooner or later they'll expect more."

---

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
Any Canadian who screams "Free Tibet!" without also demanding that Québec be freed, should have a good long think as to whose imperialist agenda s/he is following.

---

Quebec is free to go whenever Quebeckers want. The Canadian government even says so.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

Um, Tibet is part of China. The entire world recognizes that.

Québec is part of Canada. The entire world recognizes that. I do believe it ended up that way because of military conquest. Quebeckers certainly never voted to join Confederation.

Any Canadian who screams "Free Tibet!" without also demanding that Québec be freed, should have a good long think as to whose imperialist agenda s/he is following.

---

I think the protestors in the US in particular are using the Tibetan issues as a pretext to hate on China. China is now up to number 3 as an enemy of the US in public opinion polls (Iran and strangely enough Iraq are 1 and 2).

This doesn't take away from the Tibetan right to self determination, but it does show how all nationalist claims are mediated by global power politics. This was recognized during the First International when Marx decided on a middle-of-the-road approach between anti-national anarchists and petty bourgeois nationalists (this led to a declaration of support for Irish and Polish national movements, but not to the Balkans where the contest between Russia and Austro-Hungary was raising up a myriad number of competing claims).

One can even compare the Tibetan issue to the Indian Northeast where the Assamese have waged their national liberation struggle by targeting migrants to their state. The same demographic conflict seems to be evolving in Tibet.

[ 13 April 2008: Message edited by: ceti ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:

And that's really lame Unionist, as much as some may support the soveriegnist cause everyone knows there's no real comparison.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Proaxiom:

Quebec is free to go whenever Quebeckers want. The Canadian government even says so.

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You've forgotten the "Clarity Act"?

quote:

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If, on the other hand, Quebeckers had no voice in Canadian government, and Canada was instituting an aggressive program to settle anglophones in Quebec, overwhelming Quebec culture and language, do you not think there would be international sympathy for their plight?

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Yeah, like there is for our First Peoples.

Both Québec and the First Peoples were the victims of military conquest. Neither has the kind of rights that the Tibetan "government-in-exile" propounds. I realize it's hard to see oppression and cultural aggression right under your nose, but try harder.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

You're not the only one whose heart throbs for far-away ills but can't empathize with the ones close to home. It's a common condition on this board. And God is it easier to deal with the remote ones.

---

Please, I've spent far more time here attacking globalization and defending the right to native land claims than you ever have. I just don't accept that we have to choose between two forms of corporatism.

[ 13 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

Thats an even lamer comparison. Canada asking Quebec to clearly spell out the terms of any divorce can hardly be compared to Chinas repression of its minorities. But since your actually daring to compare the two, has China ever had a Tibetan elected to their highest offices? (amongst a dozen other differences we could all spell out verbatim) Oh ya, they don't even have elections.

Note: I'm not arguing that Canada is peechy keen or that Quebec has no right to separate, I'm arguing against wild exaggeration being used to defend dictatorial oppression of minorities regardless of whether states still call themselves a "People's Republic".

[ 13 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
Canada asking Quebec to clearly spell out the terms of any divorce can hardly be compared to Chinas repression of its minorities.

---

I haven't "compared" anything. It's my business to ensure Canada acts properly with respect to Quebeckers, First Peoples, indeed all Canadians - and that it does not oppress people of other countries.

You seem to consider that China behaves worse than Canada. You're welcome to your opinion. All I'm saying is that that kind of myopia is extremely common among people who call themselves progressive.

quote:

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But since your actually daring to compare the two, has China ever had a Tibetan elected to their highest offices?

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I don't know and I don't care. That's not my concern. No, I haven't seen Indigenous people elected to Canada's "highest offices".

quote:

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Oh ya, they don't even have elections.

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That's just ignorant. Of course they have elections. They get the leader they elect, just as you do (your chosen leader is Stephen Harper). You think you know better than they do how to choose leaders, don't you?

DiNovo to Premier: Human Rights before Trade

What hypocrisy. I don't recall Ms. DiNovo issuing that call with regard to trade with the U.S.:

"Stop capital punishment, end racial discrimination, and stop murdering the people of Iraq - or no more cheap resources!!"

Or better yet:

"Hey, countries - stop buying from Ontario until Canada pulls out of Afghanistan and starts treating its Indigenous people properly! Human rights first!"

I haven't "compared" anything. It's my business to ensure Canada acts properly with respect to Quebeckers, First Peoples, indeed all Canadians - and that it does not oppress people of other countries.

Actually yes you were comparing them, that was the whole point of it surely. "How can we criticise others (China, Sudan, Zimbabwe etc) when we have our own oppressed peoples..?" Like the Quebecois.

"You seem to consider that China behaves worse than Canada. You're welcome to your opinion. All I'm saying is that that kind of myopia is extremely common among people who call themselves progressive.

You seem to believe corporate dictatorships like China are better, that myopia is far worse for those who like to describe themselves as left of anything.

"quote:But since your actually daring to compare the two, has China ever had a Tibetan elected to their highest offices?

I don't know and I don't care. That's not my concern. No, I haven't seen Indigenous people elected to Canada's "highest offices".

Ah yes, another cheap and easy diversion. I can now believe you don't care about democrary much, but I have a hard time believing you're now confusing Quebeckers with our FN.

"quote: oh ya, they don't even have elections.

That's just ignorant. Of course they have elections. They get the leader they elect, just as you do (your chosen leader is Stephen Harper). You think you know better than they do how to choose leaders, don't you?

Please don't say that "we" deserve the leadership we get. I didn't vote for him, neither did most Canadians. But maybe he can be voted out again before we're all old or dead. And since you're now calling me 'ignorant' about China, how bout you show me where they've ever had an election eh? That really would be news to me. And a billion Chinese too I'd wager.

"Take a lesson in humility in front of other civilizations and societies. And don't believe everything you read in the newspapers."

Ah yes, the now popular "you must believe everything you see in the rightwing press (even though I have again been more critical of our media than you) if you too (don't believe the BS coming out of China) criticise others" line. Like I said, lamer and lamer.

[ 13 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
What hypocrisy. I don't recall Ms. DiNovo issuing that call with regard to trade with the U.S.:

"Stop capital punishment, end racial discrimination, and stop murdering the people of Iraq - or no more cheap resources!!".

---

How much trade do we do with Iraq versus China? aHA!!! I may not agree with the ONDP on this one, but at least they are taking a stand on another of the many, many issues being neglected here in Canada's largest province.

Meanwhile, our 22 percent tin pot at Queen's Perk doesn't have to take a stand on much of anything, because nobody's paying attention in Ontario anyway. We're on autopilot here in Dalton McGuilty's Ontariariario

Good things grow in Liberal Ontario. So does child poverty.

Hampton stands up for jailed aboriginal leaders in Liberal Ontario

FREE ONTARIO!

[ 13 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by ceti:
Actually, there are some similarities in terms of land mass and national claims.

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Oh, and yes there are. Some. The legitimacy is partly predicated on how badly the people of a smaller nation is served within a larger one, how threatened they feel their traditional culture is, and whether they feel they have any control over their future and land. (same thing to many indigenous people)

quote:

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One can even compare the Tibetan issue to the Indian Northeast where the Assamese have waged their national liberation struggle by targeting migrants to their state. The same demographic conflict seems to be evolving in Tibet.

---

I support the autonomy if not independence of any established nationality, if their leaderships claims are based on legitimate grievances, reasonable aims, and respect for any other minorities who might share their territory. What seems to be consistently missed here is that China could very well accede before any more embarassments, instead of sending the jackboots in again, and just give Tibetans the limited autonomy and cultural protection they want without falling apart. But some here still seem to see socialism only from the top view down.

[ 14 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Skinny Dipper:
Boycott the sponsors.

http://en.beijing2008.cn/bocog/sponsors/sponsors/

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
"How can we criticise others (China, Sudan, Zimbabwe etc) when we have our own oppressed peoples..?"

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I never said that. I repeat: Our job as Canadians is to ensure we don't oppress people at home or abroad. If you don't call on the world to boycott and denounce Canada, then attacking China for its domestic policies is moral blindness.

quote:

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You seem to believe corporate dictatorships like China are better, that myopia is far worse for those who like to describe themselves as left of anything.

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No. Myopia is seeing someone else's sins as bigger than ours.

quote:

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Ah yes, another cheap and easy diversion [viz. pointing out that no First Peoples have been elected to Canada's "highest offices"].

---

You're kinda funny you know. You are the one who asked me to point to a Tibetan elected to China's "highest offices". It's such an irrelevant issue that I threw the diversion back at you by asking about Canada. You seem to have forgotten now that it was your diversion in the first place. Oh well.

quote:

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Please don't say that "we" deserve the leadership we get. I didn't vote for him, neither did most Canadians.

---

You say China doesn't even have elections. I say they choose their leaders one way, we choose ours another, and how they choose theirs is absolutely none of your business. I never even used the word "deserve" - you should really read more carefully. But it's quite amusing that you confess that you and a majority of Canadians didn't choose Stephen Harper. Some "elections" we have! And you're attacking China!?

quote:

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Protesters in several Chinese cities have gathered to demand a boycott of French products and denounce campaigns for Tibetan independence.

Hundreds of people demonstrated in cities including Beijing, Wuhan, Hefei, Kunming, and Qingdao - often outside stores of the French chain Carrefour....

Protesters say they are angry at the scale of protests that accompanied the Olympic torch relay in Paris. ...

In Paris, several thousand protesters gathered in the Place de la Republique, many wearing T-shirts bearing the slogan "Let's make the Olympics a bridge, not a wall", reported the AP news agency.

Meanwhile, more than 1,300 protesters gathered outside BBC buildings in the British cities of London and Manchester to protest against alleged bias in the coverage of Western media.

---

Unionist: " quote: originally posted by Erik Redburn:
"How can we criticise others (China, Sudan, Zimbabwe etc) when we have our own oppressed peoples..?"

I never said that. I repeat: Our job as Canadians is to ensure we don't oppress people at home or abroad. If you don't call on the world to boycott and denounce Canada, then attacking China for its domestic policies is moral blindness.

No, actually that's about all you keep saying here. I of course criticise Canada all the time and consistently call for more autonomy for our oppressed FN as well, but you and some others here apparently only see such things as wrong because it's "us" not them.

quote:You seem to believe corporate dictatorships like China are better, that myopia is far worse for those who like to describe themselves as left of anything.

No. Myopia is seeing someone else's sins as bigger than ours.

That's only the case if every sin is equal. If that is all you base that principle on then anyone could commit any crime against anyone else and point out any failure or flaw on their part to justify it. The issue of consistency comes into it here when one person decries similar crimes by one state but not another. Then they're just being blindly partisan, which has nothing to do with morality at all but only with which group should be "allowed" to dominate all others.

quote: Ah yes, another cheap and easy diversion [viz. pointing out that no First Peoples have been elected to Canada's "highest offices"].

You're kinda funny you know. You are the one who asked me to point to a Tibetan elected to China's "highest offices". It's such an irrelevant issue that I threw the diversion back at you by asking about Canada. You seem to have forgotten now that it was your diversion in the first place. Oh well.

Sorry but you were quite explicit in comparing Canada and Quebec with China and Tibet, therefore my small example (one of many we could make) was perfectly apt. Saying that it's "irrelevant" whether locals are able to get elected to high office in whats supposed to be "their" own country is so mind blowingly reactionary I'm not sure what else could be said to get through to you now.

quote: please don't say that "we" deserve the leadership we get. I didn't vote for him, neither did most Canadians.

You say China doesn't even have elections. I say they choose their leaders one way, we choose ours another, and how they choose theirs is absolutely none of your business.

No again, saying "they choose their leaders another way" is just another way of saying you don't care whether "the people" have any right to hire or fire those who make their laws, or even to criticise their mistakes. That also means you relinquish any moral grounds to criticise our own "chosen" leadership.

"I never even used the word "deserve" - you should really read more carefully. But it's quite amusing that you confess that you and a majority of Canadians didn't choose Stephen Harper. Some "elections" we have! And you're attacking China!?"

Thats the feeblest dodge you've used yet, congratulations. Didn't I just tell you that "I" didn't elect Harper but "we" may yet be able to unelect them, unlike in China? Why yes, yes I did. If you can't do better then better just bypass altogether and hope others forget.

Look, here's the bottom line: China's internal policies are none of your business.

That's just your opinion, since certain Canadians do business with them and it's had some affect on ours.

China has suffered from white Christian do-gooders and missionaries for a couple of centuries. Some of us are even so rude as to call it "imperialism". It always comes sugar-coated with humanitarian loving poison. Time for all of the missionaries to keep their hands off and let that civilization solve its own problems."

Congratulations Unionist, you're now perfectly in line with American paleo-Cons. Strict "isolationism" of course isn't always the correct moral stand, not when the others may not respect those principles themselves.

[ 19 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
Even the Dalai Lama agrees with us now apparently, much to the Western media's relief too no doubt.

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The Dalai Lama is some kind of cross between a giggling clown and a ruthless politician. In 1959 he said he didn't support the uprising. Today he doesn't support the March uprising either, because he's "anti-violent", don't you know. And he wants Tibet to remain part of China, but he happens to head the Tibetan "government-in-exile" whose platform is pure separatism.

The Tibetan people IMO have the inalienable right to independence, if that's what they want. But the Dalai Lama is an ancient hireling of the western intelligence services and no friend of the Tibetan people. So please give me a rather long break.

Now, when you're done wailing about how badly China treats Tibet, perhaps you could regale us with stories about how bad Saddam Hussein was to the Kurds and how the Taleban slaughtered women and how the Sudan government is committing genocide and how Zimbabwe needs our help and how the North Koreans are starving and massacring their own people and how Cuba enslaves its folk and how in Iran they stone adulterers and hang queers and...

And...

Whew, I'm out of breath. So many foreign people to save and solidarize with, so little time.

Just don't talk about Somalia and Congo and Palestine and Chechnya and Kosovo...

And ABOVE ALL, don't forget to mention that the crimes Canada commits at home and abroad are not quite on the same barbaric scale as all those less civilized folk.

[ 19 April 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

[ 19 April 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]