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» babble   » current events   » international news and politics   » Holocaust historian who took on the Holocaust Industry - Raul Hilberg RIP

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Author Topic: Holocaust historian who took on the Holocaust Industry - Raul Hilberg RIP
Max Bialystock
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posted 05 September 2007 11:53 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just learned of this now...Raul Hilberg was a great man. He was the leading historian of the Nazi holocaust and an ardent foe of the Holocaust Industry.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=102


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 05 September 2007 05:57 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very good, Max. I would also recall and recommend the thread you opened last May on a related subject.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
St. Paul's Progressive
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posted 05 September 2007 10:06 PM      Profile for St. Paul's Progressive     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Max, I agree Hilberg was a very important historian but I think talking about a "Holocaust Industry" is offensive.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 05 September 2007 10:38 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He reckoned Jewish resistance to be negligible but Jewish cooperation (which however he distinguished from collaboration) to be significant, while he reckoned the total number of Jewish victims at closer to 5.1 million.

That's not saying very much for the many Russian and European Jews and partisanis who died fighting the corporate sponsored war machine at Leningrad, Stalingrad, Vilna etc. Those battles were instrumental in turning the tables on the Nazis. In Russia the final solution meant Jews, Russians, everybody.

quote:
Some Jews who were able to flee joined the partisans in Russia. The partisans were a non-Jewish organization that vehemently opposed Nazi rule. Approximately 10,000-20,000 Jews joined the movement.

Some of the escapees who did not join the Partisan movement managed to enlist in the Soviet army. It has been recorded that approximately 50,000 Jews fought with the Soviet army during World War II. Many of them hid their identities to avoid automatic execution by the Nazis and acts of hate by the Soviets. One hundred and forty-five of the enlisted Jews received the Hero of the Soviet Union award.


They might have been poor and undistinguished Jews, but I think they deserve honourable mention jts.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 06 September 2007 03:01 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sheldon, you might try being offended at those who have turned tragedy into business opportunity and political leverage. Those who use the phrase "Holocaust Industry" don't seek to minimize the tragedy, or reduce it to the mundane, but rather to preserve its solemn memory from the "money changers in the temple."

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 03:18 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sheldon Gordon:
I think talking about a "Holocaust Industry" is offensive.

Doing it would be more offensive than exposing it, no?

The Holocaust is a defining moment in Jewish history. Our attitude toward it and the lessons we draw from it help determine who we are.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 03:19 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[Double post]

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
evernon
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posted 06 September 2007 03:53 AM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would urge great caution. The "Holocaust industry" as touted by Norman Finkelstein was on a parallel level also embraced by the Holocaust denial set. Mark Weber of the so-called "Journal of Historical review" an ardent and smart anti-Semite and Holocaust denier uses and lauds Finkelstein whenever he can. Forgive me for linking to the site below but in order to give proper context to my above remarks I feel it is important.

Mark Weber and Norman Finkelstein

In the progressive British online Journal "Engage" Finkelstein is heavily critisized and rightly admonished for his dalliances with the neo-Nazi movement:

Engage

quote:
The far-left academic Norman Finkelstein has a different approach. He discovered in 1997 that “‘The Holocaust’ is in effect the Zionist account of the Nazi holocaust.” In 2000, he published his polemic, The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitations of Jewish Suffering.

Neo-Nazis adored this book. Ernst Zundel wrote that “Finkelstein continues his one-man intifada against the Holocaust establishment and vigorously attacks the Holocaust profiteers [in his] ever-so-feisty volume.” David Irving was proud to admit that he had corresponded for years with Finkelstein. The IHR’s Journal for Historical Review bestowed the highest praise on Finkelstein’s work: “the kind of things revisionists have been saying for years… one can find much of… Finkelstein prefigured in the early writings of Butz and Faurisson.”

According to Finkelstein: “Given the nonsense churned out daily by the Holocaust industry, the wonder is there are so few skeptics.” Discussing the reception of his book by Holocaust deniers, Finkelstein stated, “Were it not for the fact that my late parents passed through the Nazi holocaust, I myself would probably would be a skeptic by now. Who can any longer believe a single word coming out of the Holocaust industry?” The author Paul Bogdanor comments:
Finkelstein enjoys cordial relations with neo-Nazis, grants them interviews, allows his books and articles to be posted on their websites, dismisses the findings of legitimate Holocaust historians while heaping praise on the deniers, and repeatedly insists that the deniers’ positions are entirely reasonable, in the light of “profiteering” and “hucksterism” of the privileged Jewish elite.
As Bogdanor points out, Finkelstein referred to Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel as well as others who signed a public statement condemning “Syria’s Denial of the Holocaust” as “Holocaust industry luminaries.” The statement read in part:
[Syria] declared that Israel invented ‘the myth of the Holocaust’ and ‘invents stories about the Holocaust and exaggerates it to astronomical levels’ in order ‘to receive more money from Germany and other Western establishments’ and to silence ‘anyone opposed to Zionism and its expansionist policies.’
As far as Finkelstein was concerned “the Syrian charge is true.”

The nexus between far-right Holocaust deniers and far leftists who claim that Zionists collaborated with the Nazis can be seen in the writings of the former Marxist and convert to Islam, Roger Garaudy. In 1995 he wrote the book, The Founding Myths of Israeli Politics, in which he denied that the Holocaust occurred, saying that Jews under Nazi control died of starvation and disease, not poison gas. In 1998 he was fined the equivalent of approximately $40,000 in a French court for “racial defamation” stemming from these claims. It comes as no surprise to me that the IHR advertises both the Finkelstein and Garaudy books on its Internet home page.


All to say that in my view Finkelstein has brought discredit to the memory of Holocaust victims and those who praise him reflect more an ignorance of his infamy and the harm he has caused.

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: evernon ]


From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 04:06 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry, evernon. You link to an anti-Semitic website which quotes Finkelstein. The same page quotes Ariel Sharon. Plus many Jewish scholars. Your point was... what exactly?

Why don't you learn how to craft an argument without using scandalmongering and innuendo. You can talk about Hilberg, you can refute the thesis of a Holocaust "industry", you can do all that without embarrassing yourself.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 04:13 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by evernon:

In the progressive British online Journal "Engage"...

"Progressive!!??" We don't even use the same vocabulary any more. Do you actually know what "Engage" peddles?

From the home page of this rag:

quote:
# Engage challenges contemporary antisemitism. Contemporary antisemitism nearly always appears using the language of anti-Zionism. 'Anti-racist' anti-Zionism is often reckless about creating an ideological foundation for, and licensing, more openly antisemitic discourses and movements. For more on Engage, click here.

# We are a resource for the monitoring and the critique of left and liberal antisemitism.


Progressive? Evernon, I'm 100% sure you never looked at "Engage" before making that statement. I'll assume it was a simple error on your part and perhaps you should retract your "progressive" description?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
evernon
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posted 06 September 2007 04:30 AM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Unionist check out their "about us" and you will see significant links with Labour and other progressives. As for your other nonsense I explained why I felt it important to link to the site. Read about Finkelsteins alliances with the same groups and people that you and I loathe for the very same reason.
From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 04:36 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by evernon:
Unionist check out their "about us" and you will see significant links with Labour and other progressives.

Please comment on their mission statement as quoted on their home page - i.e. monitoring "left and liberal anti-semitism".

quote:
As for your other nonsense I explained why I felt it important to link to the site.

As I said, the fact that neo-Nazis quote someone doesn't discredit that person. Only what the person themselves says or does can discredit them. It's a pretty elementary point, evernon.

quote:
Read about Finkelsteins alliances with the same groups and people that you and I loathe for the very same reason.

I don't like Finkelstein's advocacy much. I think he's a relatively poor and unconvincing champion of some of the causes he espouses. But what "alliances" are you talking about? I have never found any reason to question his sincerity - only his effectiveness.


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Caissa
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posted 06 September 2007 04:44 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find the term "Holocaust industry" incredibly offensive.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 September 2007 04:50 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 06 September 2007 04:53 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When some people use an event as a shield to defend themselves from unrelated actions, we're allowed to attack that defence.
From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 04:58 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I find the term "Holocaust industry" incredibly offensive.

Would you prefer the following:

"Besmirching and vulgarizing the Nazi genocide against Jews and other peoples by utilizing it to either amass wealth or justify war crimes and crimes against humanity."

I too find the term "Holocaust industry" to be lame - it gives those who exploit the Holocaust a ready-made diversion to attack the terminology rather than come to terms with, What lessons should we learn and apply from the Holocaust?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 September 2007 06:27 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

A Chicago university professor who has drawn criticism for accusing some Jews of abusing the legacy of the Holocaust agreed Wednesday to resign immediately "for everybody's sake."

DePaul University officials and political science professor Norman Finkelstein issued a joint statement announcing the resignation, which came as about a hundred protesters gathered outside the dean's office to support him.

Finkelstein, who is the son of Holocaust survivors, was denied tenure in June after spending six years on DePaul's faculty. His remaining class was cut by DePaul last month.

. . . .

The school denied that outside parties influenced the decision to deny Finkelstein tenure. The school's portion of the statement called Finkelstein a prolific scholar and an outstanding teacher.

. . . .

Dershowitz was critical of the school. "DePaul looks like they caved into pressure," he said in a telephone interview. "The idea of describing him as a scholar trades truth for convenience. He's a man who is a propagandist and is not a scholar."

Still, Dershowitz said, "I'm happy he's out of academia. Let him do his ranting on street corners."



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/901583.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 06 September 2007 06:28 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, when I saw the thread title I sort of raised an eyebrow. I haven't and probably won't make the time to plow through that whole article, but I did think I'd see what those more knowledgable on the subject than I would have to say about it.

Obviously a difficult subject to discuss, but I think I'm getting the picture.


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 September 2007 06:59 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not crazy about the term "Holocaust industry" either, but it seems to me that instead of just saying, "Gee, I don't like that," it would be much more useful to say why. I mean, if you want to have a discussion, or convince people of your point of view, you need more than just some simple declarative statement, otherwise you just end up with:

"I'm offended at that term."
"I'm not offended at that term."

I mean, seriously. So what? What's your point? Why are you offended? Why should we care if you're offended? What does the simple fact of your offense add to the discussion or our understanding of Raul Hilberg's work, whether for good or bad?

Not much.

I may not agree with evernon on much , but at least he's actually discussing the issue rather than just making emotive noises.

That's not to say that declarative statements are always useless. I mean, if we were talking about a movie, and someone said, "Oh, I loved that movie!" or "I think that commercial is so funny!" then that's what the thread is about, although usually people will expand on why they liked it or didn't like it.

But in this thread, saying, "I'm offended by 'Holocaust industry'" and nothing else is basically a conversation stopper.

Which is why I said, "So what?" In other words, why not tell us why we should care whether you are offended or not?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 06 September 2007 07:21 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe that Finklestein invented the term "Holocaust Industry" not to demean or mock the memory of the Shoah(no decent human being would do that) but to comment on the way that incident has been used by some of the less honorable members of the Zionist movement to try to discredit and silence any criticism of Israel.

Those that say, in effect, "Because of the Holocaust, everything the Israeli government does is justified and anyone who disagrees is an anti-Zionist(and, by inference, an antisemite as well)" are the people who, in my view, Finklestein was attempting to characterize by the use of the admittedly inflammatory term "Holocaust Industry".

If I were him, I'd have tried to find another term. But then again, Finklestein could probably rejoin if any other term had been used, would as many people have paid attention?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 06 September 2007 07:21 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Unionist I agree that just because a neo-Nazi quotes you, doesnt make you a neo-nazi. However when you become their "darling" are used over and over again and then even grant them interviews well surely then you have to wonder.

While you may have issues with "Engage" the piece on Finkelstein is indeed important and well documented. Here is where the reference is of interviews given by Finkelstein to neo-nazis.

quote:
According to Finkelstein: “Given the nonsense churned out daily by the Holocaust industry, the wonder is there are so few skeptics.” Discussing the reception of his book by Holocaust deniers, Finkelstein stated, “Were it not for the fact that my late parents passed through the Nazi holocaust, I myself would probably would be a skeptic by now. Who can any longer believe a single word coming out of the Holocaust industry?” The author Paul Bogdanor comments:
Finkelstein enjoys cordial relations with neo-Nazis, grants them interviews, allows his books and articles to be posted on their websites, dismisses the findings of legitimate Holocaust historians while heaping praise on the deniers, and repeatedly insists that the deniers’ positions are entirely reasonable, in the light of “profiteering” and “hucksterism” of the privileged Jewish elite.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 06 September 2007 07:37 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Unionist I agree that just because a neo-Nazi quotes you, doesnt make you a neo-nazi. However when you become their "darling" are used over and over again and then even grant them interviews well surely then you have to wonder.

This is a serious charge. Please say which neo-nazi Finkelstein has granted an interview to or withdraw your charge.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 08:07 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Unionist I agree that just because a neo-Nazi quotes you, doesnt make you a neo-nazi. However when you become their "darling" are used over and over again and then even grant them interviews well surely then you have to wonder.

If anti-Semites point to Israeli behaviour over and over and over to claim that Jews are evil, does that mean that Israel's behaviour is anti-Semitic?

quote:
While you may have issues with "Engage" the piece on Finkelstein is indeed important and well documented. Here is where the reference is of interviews given by Finkelstein to neo-nazis.

I have no issues with "Engage". My issue is with evernon, who called it "progressive".

As for Finkelstein giving interviews to neo-Nazis, if that's true, the man should be tarred and feathered and excluded from any civilized company. If it's not true, however, then those who make this claim should be treated likewise.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 06 September 2007 09:02 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Holocaust Industry", is an offensive term, mostly because there is no such industry, any more than there is a "US imperialism industry" a "victims of rape industry" or a "Japanese-Canadian deportee industry."

When people testify about their experiences, they should be listened to, and not mocked.
The use of this sort of terminology speaks volumes about those who use it.

Hilberg was a great historian. He was the first substantial historian of the Holocaust. In fact, he was the chief Crown witness here in Ontario in the case against Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel about twenty years ago, and exhibited monumental erudition.

Hilberg's book, "The Destruction of the European Jews", was published in 1961. It has not been substantially updated since then.

So, it has one gaping hole; it does not take Soviet Archives into account, as these were unavailable at the time. Friedlander's work on the Holocaust, and to a lesser extent, the work of Michael Marrus, does include this material.

Consequently, this view of Hilsberg:

quote:
He reckoned Jewish resistance to be negligible but Jewish cooperation (which however he distinguished from collaboration) to be significant, while he reckoned the total number of Jewish victims at closer to 5.1 million.

is outdated. Soviet sources establish several uprisings in the genocide camps as well as encampments of Jewish partisans in the Ukraine which included over 1000 resistance fighters.

So, Hilberg was a great scholar, but, hsi work, like most things, has been corrected as more material became available.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 06 September 2007 09:10 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
"Holocaust Industry", is an offensive term, mostly because there is no such industry, any more than there is a "US imperialism industry"

Hi.. Military industrial complex? Ever heard of it?

Anyway, you are right, there isn't an 'industry' around it. Unionist had it right

quote:
"Besmirching and vulgarizing the Nazi genocide against Jews and other peoples by utilizing it to either amass wealth or justify war crimes and crimes against humanity."

From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 06 September 2007 09:28 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Military industrial complex? Ever heard of it?

Why yes, I remember when Eisenhower used the term in his final Presidential address in 1959 or early 1960.

But, you see, his use of the term does not involve a repulsive failure to respect victims of a crime when they speak of their experience.

Japanese Canadians received restitution for their displacement and the loss of property, and so should Jews whose families were destroyed and who were forced from their homes to die or starved.


The Holocaust provided the moral basis for the establishment of the state of Israel. When Stalin and Truman agreed that Jews needed a state to protect them, the Holocaust provided all the evidence necessary. Those who recall this fact are not an "industry"; they are people who recall recent experience, and who don't want to repeat it.

That's why there is always a temptation by states which oppose Israel, and their cheerleaders, to segue over into Holocaust denial. Some of the states, like Iran, are pretty active holocaust deniers.

Finklestein has had his troubles as an academic, because much of his writing is specious, inadequately sourced, and tries to blame Jews for the Holocaust. This shows moral insensitivity, which he disguises as radicalism.

His is not the only such case.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 06 September 2007 09:41 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

But, you see, his use of the term does not involve a repulsive failure to respect victims of a crime when they speak of their experience.

Japanese Canadians received restitution for their displacement and the loss of property, and so should Jews whose families were destroyed and who were forced from their homes to die or starved.


So you're saying the US is going to respect the victims of...um....hell pick a country, any country.

FYI, Total German reparations at the end of 2000 amounted to roughly EUR 55 billion,

They did manage to get a little bit back.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 06 September 2007 09:42 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What everon and others here are doing is the standard Guilt by association fallacy.

Here is a standard explanation:

"Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy

Guilt by association can sometimes also be a type of ad hominem fallacy, if the argument attacks a person because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.

Example:
"You say the gap between the rich and poor is unacceptable, but communists also say this, therefore you are a communist"

This fallacy can also take another form:
A makes claim P.
Bs make claims P and Q
Therefore, A makes claim Q.
=======
This is distinct from something that could be called legitimately be labeled "guilt by alliance". That is, if persons or groups mutually support the methods and goals of each other they could be said to have shared responsibility for those ideas.

A example here would be mainstream hyper-Zionist organizations are publicly, mutually supportive with the end-of-days, geo-cidal death-cult, Zionist Christians. AIPAC's pact with Christian Zionists
Rapture Ready: Max Blumenthal's video

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: contrarianna ]


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 11:42 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

The Holocaust provided the moral basis for the establishment of the state of Israel. When Stalin and Truman agreed that Jews needed a state to protect them, the Holocaust provided all the evidence necessary.

That's as revisionist as anything I've heard.

Stalin and Truman wanted Britain out of the Middle East as part of dismantling the British Empire in its entirety.

The "moral basis" for Israel was the Balfour Declaration of 1917, to which only Britain was signatory.

The Arabs were divided and incompetent and led by semi-feudal (or downright feudal) colonial bootlickers, so they were inept at influencing the U.N. decision. The Zionists did a far better job. Hence, two states instead of one, and the most ridiculous partition map imaginable - and the seeds of all that followed.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 06 September 2007 11:58 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whatever the 'moral basis' and hidden political reasonings for it, the holocaust was what sold the 'jewish state' to the western populaces. So in that case House is right.
From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 12:35 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:
Whatever the 'moral basis' and hidden political reasonings for it, the holocaust was what sold the 'jewish state' to the western populaces.

In 1947? No one in the "western populaces" knew anything about the Holocaust in 1947 or for many years after. Even the term wasn't in use. Plus, what did the western populaces have to do with the U.N. resolution on partition? Have you read the history of how that came about? I'm just wondering if you have some support for your proposition.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 06 September 2007 12:47 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Finklestein has had his troubles as an academic, because much of his writing is specious, inadequately sourced, and tries to blame Jews for the Holocaust. This shows moral insensitivity, which he disguises as radicalism.

His is not the only such case.


I guess that explains why DePaul's poli sci department voted for tenure

I think Tony Judt put it well

Norman Finkelstein and I have not always seen eye to eye and he has been very critical of me in print. And yes, he isn’t always polite or ‘respectful’. But that is a scholar’s privilege and has been for a thousand years. Precisely because of the controversial and highly politicised field in which he works, it is vital that Finkelstein’s tenure process be fair, free of all outside pressure and concerned exclusively with his qualities as scholar and teacher. Anything else will bring your university in serious public disrepute.

http://normanfinkelstein.wordpress.com/

But what do people like Hilberg and Judt know? Dershowitz (who isn't really any kind of scholar at all) needed to set the record straight.


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 06 September 2007 01:03 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Stalin and Truman wanted Britain out of the Middle East as part of dismantling the British Empire in its entirety.

The "moral basis" for Israel was the Balfour Declaration of 1917, to which only Britain was signatory.


Also, according to Tom Segev in his book "One Palestine, Complete", Britain had never actually wanted to be IN Palestine to start with.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 06 September 2007 01:08 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

In 1947? No one in the "western populaces" knew anything about the Holocaust in 1947 or for many years after. Even the term wasn't in use. Plus, what did the western populaces have to do with the U.N. resolution on partition? Have you read the history of how that came about? I'm just wondering if you have some support for your proposition.


The western populations started hearing 'horror stories' about what was happening as the war was ending. And frankly I don't think that it, or any of the other reasons were the real reasons for it, I think it was mostly a widespread european feeling that they didn't want the Jewish people in their neighbourhoods, so were happy when the british pulled up Balfour.

I've read a fair bit, but there's always interpretation in history books.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 06 September 2007 02:00 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

This is a serious charge. Please say which neo-nazi Finkelstein has granted an interview to or withdraw your charge.


You will have to ask Paul Bogdanor to do that since it was his comment. I just quoted it

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: ohara ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 02:11 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
You will have to ask Paul Bogdanor to do that since it was his comment. I just quoted it

You are funny. "Ask Bogdanor why he says Finkelstein is a child molestor and kitten killer - all I did was quote him!"

How about evernon - here's what he said (he, not a quote, he):

quote:
In the progressive British online Journal "Engage" Finkelstein is heavily critisized and rightly admonished for his dalliances with the neo-Nazi movement:

He's clean too, right? He's just quoting this "progressive" rag.

Ohara, you may be right about Finkelstein consorting with neo-Nazis - but surely you should either (a) provide evidence or (b) acquire some guts and retract your citation of Bogdanor's comments.

Do it. It will cost you nothing. It's what I do when someone proves me wrong. You will rise in my estimation.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 06 September 2007 03:03 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
You will have to ask Paul Bogdanor to do that since it was his comment. I just quoted it


I don't see any quotation marks. In any case, quoting a libelous comment is still libel. You shouldn't quote a questionable accusation as fact if you can't back it up. I suggest you either do back it up or delete it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 04:31 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ohara, listen carefully. You don't call someone a neo-Nazi without proof, not even at second hand. Neo-Nazi is the worst thing you can call someone. Just delete it, please, or prove it. Do it.

ETA: The same goes for evernon. Delete your slanderous comment, or provide evidence. Do you know what Nazi means, and what it means to call someone that?

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 September 2007 05:20 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you believe there is a "Holocaust Industry" then do you also believe that the following exist?

Naaqba Industry
Rape Industry
Slavery Industry
Oppressed First Nations Industry, and the grand-daddy of them all

French culture in North America is under siege Industry


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 06 September 2007 06:09 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canada is world renowned for its abuse of native people. They might as well just question whether the Holocaust was fact or fiction.

And French culture won't be under siege for long after Uncle Sam gets his hooks all the way into Canada's economy and interfering with our sovereign decision-making abilities with deep integration, "SPP" and NAU - and after we lower our standards for everything Canadian in order to suit big American business. The Yanks would love to stamp out French language and culture after wiping out Spanish l&c in the melting pot down thataway. They'll have fervent nationalism, duty to country and flag shoved down their throats in no time at all.

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 September 2007 06:40 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...and let's not forget two other big "industries" (if we believe there is such a thing as a Holocaust Industry) - the AIDS Industry and the Global Warming Industry (in case you didn't know David Suzuki charges even more to give a speech than does Eli Wiesel)
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 06 September 2007 06:41 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
"Holocaust Industry", is an offensive term, mostly because there is no such industry, any more than there is a "US imperialism industry" a "victims of rape industry" or a "Japanese-Canadian deportee industry."

When people testify about their experiences, they should be listened to, and not mocked.
The use of this sort of terminology speaks volumes about those who use it.

Hilberg was a great historian. He was the first substantial historian of the Holocaust. In fact, he was the chief Crown witness here in Ontario in the case against Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel about twenty years ago, and exhibited monumental erudition.


[/b]

Actually, I got my ass kicked at the Zundel trial in 1985. So hard that I refused to testify at Zundel's 1988 retrial.

You can read my humiliation here, if it isn't illegal to do so in Canada.

[Nazi link removed by moderator]

quote:

Hilberg's book, "The Destruction of the European Jews", was published in 1961. It has not been substantially updated since then.


cough

Bullshit!

quote:

So, it has one gaping hole; it does not take Soviet Archives into account, as these were unavailable at the time. Friedlander's work on the Holocaust, and to a lesser extent, the work of Michael Marrus, does include this material.

.


[Holocaust denial deleted by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
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posted 06 September 2007 06:47 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

The Holocaust is a defining moment in Jewish history. Our attitude toward it and the lessons we draw from it help determine who we are.



[Holocaust denial removed by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
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posted 06 September 2007 06:53 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

In 1947? No one in the "western populaces" knew anything about the Holocaust in 1947 or for many years after..



[Holocaust denial deleted by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 06 September 2007 07:01 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

I don't see any quotation marks. In any case, quoting a libelous comment is still libel. You shouldn't quote a questionable accusation as fact if you can't back it up. I suggest you either do back it up or delete it.


If and when Norman Finkelstein complains or even demands a retraction from Engage (a reputable British Journal) I will delete . But not until then. And Mycroft dont hold your breath waiting for Norm to ask.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 06 September 2007 07:01 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Obviously #1, given the mania for secrecy, use of banal words and the fact that even Heydrich, at Wannsee, decreed not copies of what ws discussed and planned to be allowed to exist and its only because of the one guy present but later executed by the Nazis do we know what was discussed (martin Luther I believe)

I'll be interested to see his memoirs coming out this month. I suspect he was more courier/phone receptionist than bodyguard and therefore wouldnt really have gotten any 'good' info passed through him but heard a lot of Hitler rants.


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 06 September 2007 07:03 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bacchus, kindly refrain from having a discussion with some Nazi shit who decided to have some fun here when he thinks the mods aren't looking.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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Babbler # 7961

posted 06 September 2007 07:04 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
BTW why is this "Raul Hilberg" poster still here? An anti-Semite if I ever saw one!!!
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 06 September 2007 07:05 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
Obviously #1, given the mania for secrecy, use of banal words and the fact that even Heydrich, at Wannsee, decreed not copies of what ws discussed and planned to be allowed to exist and its only because of the one guy present but later executed by the Nazis do we know what was discussed (martin Luther I believe)

I'll be interested to see his memoirs coming out this month. I suspect he was more courier/phone receptionist than bodyguard and therefore wouldnt really have gotten any 'good' info passed through him but heard a lot of Hitler rants.


[Holocaust denial deleted by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
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posted 06 September 2007 07:07 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Bacchus, kindly refrain from having a discussion with some Nazi shit who decided to have some fun here when he thinks the mods aren't looking.

[Holocaust denial deleted by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 06 September 2007 07:08 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Youre right about this particular a-hole, ohara, but resonse time isn't always instanteous here so stop trying to imply he/she/it is being given any slack here. He'll be thrown back to the hate-o-sphere soon enough.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 06 September 2007 07:21 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Secret taping of German Army officers 1942-45 reveals they knew of holocaust as did the Allies

Interesting article as a result of this thread.

And Hilberg, you idiot, you only gave 2 choices. Choosing the more reasonable one, at least with reference to Misch, was the only option and doesnt make the choice a 'religion'


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
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posted 06 September 2007 07:27 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
Secret taping of German Army officers 1942-45 reveals they knew of holocaust as did the Allies

Interesting article as a result of this thread.

And Hilberg, you idiot, you only gave 2 choices. Choosing the more reasonable one, at least with reference to Misch, was the only option and doesnt make the choice a 'religion'


David Irving has known about these tapes since the early 80's. He referenced them in some of his works.

And yet still, David Irving, after lsitening to and publishing these tapes, is called a " holocaust denier".

[Nazi link and Holocaust denial deleted by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 06 September 2007 07:28 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't waste your time on this Nazi scumbag Bacchus, theyre incapable of honesty or reason or decency of any kind. He/she/it will just carry on believing it was Hitler's secretary who actually ordered the genocide while der kindly old Fuhrer was busy reciting the Ten Commandments nomatter what.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 06 September 2007 07:29 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And Hilberg, you idiot, you only gave 2 choices

Not me, Occum's razor.


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
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Babbler # 14503

posted 06 September 2007 07:31 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
Don't waste your time on this Nazi scumbag Bacchus, theyre incapable of honesty or reason or decency of any kind. He/she/it will just carry on believing it was Hitler's secretary who actually ordered the genocide while der kindly old Fuhrer was busy reciting the Ten Commandments nomatter what.

Show some evidence, dickwad, and I might start to believe this religion.

[Holocaust denial deleted by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 06 September 2007 07:48 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*** WOULD SOME MOD PLEASE BAN THIS ANTI-SEMITIC NAZI AND DELETE ITS POSTS? THANKS ***
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14503

posted 06 September 2007 07:54 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
LOFL!

Let's talk instead about God, shall we, unionist? You don't mind mocking other people's beliefs, but when someone starts talking about facts ( and every single thing I wrote above is a fact) about the Holy Hoax, you get all upset.

[Holocaust denial deleted by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 September 2007 07:55 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*** WOULD SOME MOD PLEASE BAN THIS ANTI-SEMITIC NAZI AND DELETE ITS POSTS? THANKS ***
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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Babbler # 5052

posted 06 September 2007 08:13 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So which is smaller, a neo-Nazi's penis or their brain? (I'm only being polite in assuming that have one)
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
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posted 06 September 2007 08:26 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: Raul_Hilberg ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Raul_Hilberg
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14503

posted 06 September 2007 08:27 PM      Profile for Raul_Hilberg        Edit/Delete Post
[Holocaust denial deleted by moderator]

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: with Yenkel Wiernek | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 06 September 2007 08:28 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 06 September 2007 08:52 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since this asshole now dares insists theres no evidence, here's just a small taste, once in his life he should be confronted with the truth, even if he/she/it refuses to see it. (not recommended for those with a weak stomach) Hitler of course proved his psychopathy towards everyone during the war, my father nearly lost his life as an underaged fifteen year old mariner during the War in the Atlantic.

http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blcampsausch.htm

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/

http://www.auschwitz.dk/id17.htm


Shalom.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 06 September 2007 08:54 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What Unionist said.

Ban the Nazi scumbag NOW!


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 06 September 2007 08:54 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Raul_Hilberg:

Not me, Occum's razor.


Sounds like a dull razor used by William of Ockham's evil Irish twin, O'Hamhock ?. I'm just guessing here.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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Babbler # 5052

posted 06 September 2007 08:59 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aparently he/she/it thinks that razers make the choices, not people. Proving my penis or brain thesis once again. Mod alerted.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 06 September 2007 09:30 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
[Holocaust denial quote removed by moderator - please don't quote holocaust deniers in your posts - it just makes more work for mods when we have to clean up! - Michelle]

Th testimony if Rudolf Hoess, the commandant and numerous other perpertators as well as survivors?

I believe that many use the holocaust to get points for things or use as a blanket defense against any anti-israel statements but no one with any real brains listens to that. I wouldnt mind seeing Israel (or Syria for that matter) destroyed but that has nothing to do with the holocaust. Thats the jews, gypsies, mentally challenged, homosexuals, jehovah witnesses, communists, priests, union members etc were singled out and systematically dstroyed is not to be denied. Quibble about numbers, dates, who knew what, fine, Im happy to take part in such historical detective work but you cannot deny the event itself.

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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Babbler # 4722

posted 06 September 2007 09:31 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I forgot to add 'putz'!
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 06 September 2007 09:43 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by the soon to be banned poltergeist itself:
For example, show me when there was a single Jew gassed at Auschwitz. The Nazi's took lots of pictures of people being hung, shot, arrested, deported, and yet not 1 single photograph of any of these miracle gas chambers, or anyone actually gased in one

There were aerial photos of billowing smoke stacks at the crematoriums taken by allied reconaissance pilots. There were testimonials at Nuremberg. The SS guards and administrators who fled Auschwitz and Birkenau weren't about to leave photographic evidence for the red army to condemn them. And 90 percent of the administrators and guards were never brought to trial for their crimes either. Justice wasn't really served as many of them fled to the west by the ratlines and by CIA recruiters.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 September 2007 10:14 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah. Archimedes 2000 or whatever your first name here was. Look: GO. AWAY. NAZI.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 06 September 2007 11:21 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"I wouldnt mind seeing Israel (or Syria for that matter) destroyed but that has nothing to do with the holocaust."


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 06 September 2007 11:30 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whatever. There's lots of photos too, along with all the testimonials and all the people who suddenly no longer existed: (be warned, some of these are very disturbing)

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Kristl1.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Pol-jew1.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Pit.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Krema3.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Furn_cap.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Furnace.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG4.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/MedExp03.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Shrunken.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/MedExp01.jpg

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Belsen01.jpg

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 September 2007 11:40 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, the holocaust may be misused by some for political purposes now, but I'd now have to agree that calling it an "industry" is at the very least inappropriate terminology and insensitive, and therefore not a very good way of making a case.

[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 September 2007 11:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Ah. Archimedes 2000 or whatever your first name here was. Look: GO. AWAY. NAZI.

Ahh those were the days. Back when the trolls were new and exciting. The internet was young. Trolling an art in development. Who knows if this is really the late great Archimedes 2000, or just some cheap newbie rip-off?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 07 September 2007 03:38 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:

I wouldnt mind seeing Israel (or Syria for that matter) destroyed but that has nothing to do with the holocaust. .


No question that the Raul Hilberg poster was a neo-Nazi scum. But Bacchus in my view this statement of yours may even cross the legal line. One cannot advocate the genocide of any national group no matter what you think of them. And please dont argue that you meant destroying a government or a concept. If that's what you mean say so. Otherwise deleat this highly offensive line in your post.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 September 2007 03:41 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
BTW why is this "Raul Hilberg" poster still here? An anti-Semite if I ever saw one!!!

Becuase I don't work 24 hours a day and neither do any of the other moderators. Christ almighty, you've got your nerve.

How about ponying up a donation to rabble, ohara, to pay for round-the-clock moderation so you can get an response right away when throw your hissy fits at MIDNIGHT, demanding immediate attention from the moderators? It's not like you haven't been using this forum, and more than your share of the moderating resources here for years on end.

No? Yeah, I didn't think so. It's much more fun to always look for some reason to trash the moderators here because we don't bend to your constant demands to cleanse this forum of everything except ohara-approved discussions about Israel. Isn't it?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Solidarity4Ever
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14488

posted 07 September 2007 03:50 AM      Profile for Solidarity4Ever        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Becuase I don't work 24 hours a day and neither do any of the other moderators. Christ almighty, you've got your nerve.

How about ponying up a donation to rabble, ohara, to pay for round-the-clock moderation so you can get an response right away when throw your hissy fits at MIDNIGHT, demanding immediate attention from the moderators? It's not like you haven't been using this forum, and more than your share of the moderating resources here for years on end.

No? Yeah, I didn't think so. It's much more fun to always look for some reason to trash the moderators here because we don't bend to your constant demands to cleanse this forum of everything except ohara-approved discussions about Israel. Isn't it?


Wow. Rabble pays you to act this way towards its readers and contributors? Were you given special training? If I acted that way at my place of employment (and Rabble is your place of employment) I think I'd be spoken to by the boss.


From: The Earth | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 September 2007 03:56 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You seem to be rather obsessed with the fact that I'm a paid moderator here.

Feel free to complain to my boss about it.

It was probably somewhat intemperate of me, but I don't regret it. ohara and his pals, some of whom have been here in some form or other since 2002, have been dogging me for years with little swipes like that one. And the vast majority of that time has been volunteer moderating time on my part, not paid time.

In fact, most of the time I spend on babble now is unpaid, because I'm a participant as well. And I spend way more than my paid four hours a week moderating here.

If you don't like it, that's too bad.

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 07 September 2007 04:02 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For everyone's information, I think it is euphemistic to call this banned Nazi a "Holocaust denier". He was using stereotypical anti-Jewish comments in his posts. He even called me "Shlomo", which is a modern substitute for the "Hymie" of the past.

Questioning the Holocaust (or questioning its details) is a controversial subject as to whether it should be banned or not on free speech grounds. Greater minds than mine differ legitimately on how such denial should be viewed (Chomsky, for example, defending Faurisson's right to speech, though no sane person would accuse Chomsky of neo-Nazism or anti-Semitism).

Hurling racist anti-Semitic epithets, however, while defending Hitler, is not controversial. I think it's a very important distinction to be made.

As for Solidarity4Ever, I don't believe you've done anything to merit being banned, so why don't you just freely leave on your own? Or at least take your muddy boots off before treading on our carpet.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 07 September 2007 06:39 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
wow, someone sure sucked the fun right out of this thread.

FYI to everyone. The next time some scumbag shows up with crap like this, it's our obligation to ignore them, notify the moderators, and then wait.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 September 2007 06:41 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:
wow, someone sure sucked the fun right out of this thread.

It was fun to begin with?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 07 September 2007 07:11 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:
FYI to everyone. The next time some scumbag shows up with crap like this, it's our obligation to ignore them, notify the moderators, and then wait.

Fully agree, that's what I was trying to convey without much success. I notified the mods after his very first post, then just threw in posts to get his shit off of TAT.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4020

posted 07 September 2007 07:13 AM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
hm. Bit of a tangent I suppose; I never had any trouble with the posited historical truth of what is now known as the Holocaust. It seems to be too comprehensively documented and material evidence appears across a wide range of disciplines.

I do think there is something to the 'Holocaust Industry' tag but I don't think it need impugn the WW2 genocide itself. The former is obviously the media-bloated 'spectacle' created for diverse contemporary polemical/political ends, based on the latter.

Visited Auschwitz-Birkenau a few weeks ago. The pall still hasn't quite lifted, I suppose that's why I put off going all these years.

The friend who came with me, a Polish Jewish son of survivors, asked me what I thought about it. I said there was nothing I could say.

I DID think, staring at the dynamited remains of the chief crematoria in Birkenau, that those responsible knew, in their bellies, how far they had fallen. Why else go to such lengths to cover their tracks? I think there was more to it than just trying to save their necks. Except for that portion of those involved who were genuinely psychopathic - and that must have been a good number - I think they knew they were going to Hell. They were human.


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 07 September 2007 07:47 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Merowe:
Except for that portion of those involved who were genuinely psychopathic - and that must have been a good number - I think they knew they were going to Hell. They were human.

Who knows why people sink to these depths. But we should never underestimate the influence of nationalism, chauvinism, racism, religion, in brainwashing very ordinary folks into feeling morally justified to commit horrors against other human beings.

I don't think aerial bombing of civilians, or suicide bombings, or napalming farms and farmers, or dropping nuclear bombs, or torture, or the World Trade Centre, or Abu Ghraib, or Rwanda, or the World War I slaughter, or even (indeed) the Nazi genocides can be explained either by psycho-pathology or by people knowing they were doing evil and going to hell for it. I think we need to look at the source and eradicate it.

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 07 September 2007 07:53 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I think we need to look at the source and eradicate it.


Yeah! Trackdown all those evil doers and Kill'em


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553

posted 07 September 2007 10:14 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Becuase I don't work 24 hours a day and neither do any of the other moderators. Christ almighty, you've got your nerve.

How about ponying up a donation to rabble, ohara, to pay for round-the-clock moderation so you can get an response right away when throw your hissy fits at MIDNIGHT, demanding immediate attention from the moderators? It's not like you haven't been using this forum, and more than your share of the moderating resources here for years on end.

No? Yeah, I didn't think so. It's much more fun to always look for some reason to trash the moderators here because we don't bend to your constant demands to cleanse this forum of everything except ohara-approved discussions about Israel. Isn't it?


Um, Michelle, maybe ohara is a Holocaust survivor or a daughter/son/grandson of one. Maybe his/her passion is high on this. Way to be sensitive.

BTW I see unionist also chimed in but you have nothing to say about his intervention to you only ohara...sad


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 September 2007 10:16 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're late, Petsy. I was expecting you this morning.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553

posted 07 September 2007 10:22 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
That's a good answer
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 07 September 2007 10:25 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Piss off, Unionist explained his actions earlier.
From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2999

posted 07 September 2007 10:28 AM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Who knows why people sink to these depths. But we should never underestimate the influence of nationalism, chauvinism, racism, religion, in brainwashing very ordinary folks into feeling morally justified to commit horrors against other human beings.
[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


Well said


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12752

posted 07 September 2007 10:54 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The point is that some, myself included, do not consider the moderation of threads on this topic to be even-handed.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 September 2007 10:58 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On what topic?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 07 September 2007 10:59 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Other than the banning of Raul, which I don't think anyone would argue was a bad idea, this thread has been a virtual free for all with almost no moderation.

That seems pretty even handed to me.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12752

posted 07 September 2007 11:04 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Holcaust, Israel etc.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 07 September 2007 11:07 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not following you...

Are you complaining about the moderation in the thread, or the topic in general?


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 07 September 2007 11:09 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
The point is that some, myself included, do not consider the moderation of threads on this topic to be even-handed.

You have a problem with the banning of the Nazi?

Or with Michelle pointing out that moderation isn't performed or paid on a 24/7 basis?

Those were the only two moderator interventions I noted in this thread.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12752

posted 07 September 2007 11:11 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a great concern with the tone of moderation of these topics over the last couple of days. But I'm sure that could be responded to with" so what?"
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 07 September 2007 11:21 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I have a great concern with the tone of moderation of these topics over the last couple of days. But I'm sure that could be responded to with" so what?"

No, it could be responded to with:

"Such as what?"

It's very difficult to address complaints about tone without detail.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12752

posted 07 September 2007 11:24 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The comments to Jeff House earlier this week and the comments to Ohara today. I'm gone for the weekend. Maybe things will be friendlier on Monday.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 September 2007 11:25 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
The Holcaust, Israel etc.

You want me to be even-handed on the topic of the Holocaust? Do you mean I should let Raul back again? That's weird, I don't think that really goes with the mandate of the board. I don't think any of the babblers would like it. I think I'll stay biased and not even-handed on that subject, thanks.

Israel? I'm not "even-handed" on Israel? Why would I be? Did you notice that rabble.ca is for "news for the rest of us"? Do you not think that there are enough news sources out there in the mainstream where people who are pro-Palestinian are shouted down, called anti-semites, etc.?

This board was created for people who are on the left, and for people with marginalized voices (and guess what? the oppressed and the colonized are the marginalized, not the colonizers and oppressors) to discuss the issues of the day. It's my job to make sure that people who get more than enough "air time" in the mainstream media don't chase marginalized voices away with false accusations of anti-semitism, reverse-racism, reverse-sexism, ridicule, etc.

We've had a long history on babble of propagandists policing any and all discussions on Israel-Palestine here, falsely accusing babblers of anti-semitism, derailing threads with stupid trivia (like this!), and taking up an inordinant amount of moderator's times with this sort of tactic. Every time we have come up with a new moderating strategy to deal with the insinuations, the intimidation, the labeling, the derailing, they've gotten around it, either through campaigns of inundating the moderators with inconsequential complaints, throwing hissy fits in threads, and making needling little insinuations that say-without-quite-saying that the people who post here are anti-semites.

I'd just love to see how you would have dealt with that for over five years, Caissa, and still have a space where people who are critical of Israel feel welcome to post. I'll bet you couldn't do it.

babble was not created to be a space where moderators enforce "even-handedness" between marginalized voices and mainstream voices who would like to keep the marginalized voices marginalized. Mainstream voices are welcome here, but they're not welcome to intimidate the marginalized.

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 07 September 2007 12:00 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why not ban the propagandists?

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 07 September 2007 12:07 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why not ban the propagandists?

I think that's been tried. They just come back under new names, same talking points though.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5052

posted 07 September 2007 12:07 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have time for this now, so I'll just say that I resent being used to support Petsy and ohara's accusations and threats, and the complete misreading of context here, not for the first time and not I'm sure for the last. I only said I diedn't particularly like the term holocaust industry either, I never made a single assumption about why it might be used, except in response to years of its mnisuse to justify a state's imperialistic persecution of its native population. (which the Palestinians are, despite more state propaganda)

Since this has escalated the last week or so, I'd like to suggest a new rule for Babble, subject to the members and moderators. If anyomne here wants to make ONE MORE threat of legal action against this board in hopes of shutting down perfectly valid criticism of a rather racist nation state (I criticism the Canadioan government all the timem, but I've yet to be called anti-Canadian) the theyre perfectly free to go elsewhere via banning. Petsy amnd ohara in particular have never resp[ected eother the mandate of this board or its other members abnd its qwuite clear now that they are no propgressives, howerver loosely they are defined. If this is shut down I'll just raise this again in Reactions. Yes, Caissa dear, it Hasn't been very friendly here, now care to guess why?


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 07 September 2007 12:11 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This board seems to have attracted alot of Israeli apologists lately. Allowing them to speak is even handed allowing them to silence the rest of us is not.

So maybe some of them might want to tell us how much of their time on this forum promoting Israeli propoganda is paid for by pro-Israeli groups. Are you doing it from your work desks with the support of your bosses?

Thanks Michelle you are doing a good job.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130

posted 07 September 2007 12:12 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know why this beast of a thread wasn't shut down earlier, but on that thoughtful note we will now.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged

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