Just curious what members here feel about Canada,is it the best country in the world?

If not,where would you rather live ?

[ 31 October 2007: Message edited by: Frisko ]

I have much more in common with an upstate New Yorker two hours away than somebody who lives in a small town on the prairie. Generally, Canadians and Americans are about as close as any two peoples can be.

We need to reach out to all countries.

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No country is perfect. But Canada is in the top handful of countries that I'd be very happy to live in. And, a lot of non-Canadians feel the same way (look at the sky-high immigration rates to Canada).

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
Grouping people together in order to label them is fraught with problems at the best of times, but 'Canada' as a people make no sense.

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I love the ethnic diversity in our major metropolitan areas.

I love the hard core lefties in this country who fight to solve the serious problems facing this country.

I love certain tv shows offered up by this country, notably "Royal Canadian Air Farce", "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", and "Hocky Night in Canada".

I love the culture of the first nations peoples of Canada.

However ...

I HATE how our Conservative and Liberal corporate masters in Ottawa are gutting our federal government.

I HATE how our BC Liberal provincial corporate masters in Victoria have gutted the BC provincial government since 2001.

I HATE the growing inequality bettwen the rich and the poor in this country, and the appalling levels of poverty and child poverty that now exist in this country.

I HATE the increasing lack of affordable housing in our major cities.

I HATE the appalling levels of homelessness that we now see on the streets of our major cities.

I HATE what Canada's oil companies are doing to the landscape in northern Alberta, and to the climate of our country and our planet.

I HATE the right-wing corporatist bullshit that is being sponnfed to Canadians through the corporate controlled tv, radio, and print media. I also HATE that the CBC news now spouts this same right-wing corporatist bullshit.

I HATE the way that our Liberal and Conservative corporate masters are leading us down the path of deep integration with the United States, which is a capitalist-imperialist cancer upon this planet (no offence to it's people intended, the majority of whom don't support the capitalist-imperialist agenda of the country and its Republican and Democratic corporate masters).

I HATE the crimes against humanity that the government of Canada is commiting in our names in places like Afghanistan and Haiti.

[ 31 October 2007: Message edited by: Left Turn ]

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Originally posted by Sven:
No country is perfect. But Canada is in the top handful of countries that I'd be very happy to live in. And, a lot of non-Canadians feel the same way (look at the sky-high immigration rates to Canada).

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And observe where they're coming from. The U.S. will attract poor Latinos seeking a better life until something changes for them in their home countries.

We are quite open to immigration, more so than practically any other country on earth.

Aside from the fact 80% of our trade is with a country with very weak economic fundamentals, our economy is doing very well. We have richer natural resources than practically any other country on earth.

Canada is very beautiful.

We have made good progress when it comes to gay rights, just over the last decade. Canada is one of... what... six nations to embrace gay marriage?

We are the best at the best sport in the world, hockey.

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Originally posted by West Coast Greeny:
Canada has a lot of shameful records too, but we talk about that in the other 80,000 threads.

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Originally posted by Fidel:

Canada has a lot of Asian immigrants. And who wouldn't want to leave overcrowding for roomier living spaces here? Canada in a lot of ways is an underdeveloped country considering it's the second largest in the world. And Ryerson Polytech said there has been a trend for well-educated Asians returning to Asia since the late 1990's, about 650,000 first and second generation Asian emigres in all. Why?

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But that's one of the things I truly respected. Canada is one of the least ideological of nation states, we have no grand narratives or historical imperatives, no "unifying" models to live up to, only to get along alright and not bother the neighbours too much while we're at it.... That perhaps has declined too into more limited minding nothing but our own backyards. Oh, firecrackers, it's Halloween! I forgot. Not many kids on this side of the rock. All the more for me.

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We most certainly do. We believe ourselves to be more tolerent then our american cousins, and in some respects, we are. However in extolling the virtues of our policies on multiculturalism and healthcare, we do somtimes forget that many immigrants from majority world nations aren't treated very well when they get here, that a lot of first nations people in this country live in dire poverty, and that our healthcare system really isn't the best in the world.

Anyway...

good things about Canada:

The rockie mountains
Canadian healthcare. The system may not function as well as it did thirty years ago, but it's still better then the corporate nightmare sick americans have to deal with.
Strict gun control laws.
This Hour has 22 Minutes.

[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
But that's one of the things I truly respected. Canada is one of the least ideological of nation states, we have no grand narratives or historical imperatives, no "unifying" models to live up to,

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I don't know, Erik. In certain ways, Canada has followed neoConservative ideology originating in the U.S. Mike Harris' common nonsense revolution had roots in the U.S. Harris made speeches in the U.S. praising their ideologues and informing their business elites that Ontario was "open for business." Harris was an arsehole creeper. And our Bank of Canada actually followed Friedman's monetarism more closely than the U.S. Fed, which abandoned tight money policies in 1982 as they were observing a similar monetarist disaster unfolding in Maggie's Britain. Not our ideologues though. They made sure and stayed the course and pretty much wrecked Canada's economy throughout the 1980's and 90's for the sake of cowtowing to the banks and financial sector.

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Originally posted by Liang Jiajie:

Canadian degrees are highly-respected in Asia and, considering the lack of education in Asian countries, someone returning from Canada with a degree will attain a high social status including a high salary. In some countries, sons and daughters are still expected to at least contribute to their parents' retirement, if not, provide them with all the necessities they need.

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There are good things and bad things (spelled out very well by Left Turn above) but overall this country and the people here are great.

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I also love the land, it's crazy beautiful in all corners.

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I love our freedom. I love that we live in a country so free, that it's citizens can go around calling themselves the names of foreign dictators while they cut down not only our democratically elected leaders, but our whole system of democracy. In almost any other country in the world, these people would be shot, or in deep, dark, dank prisons as traitors.

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You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950),

Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.
George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958)

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I am surprised at the patriotism on this board, I think it goes completely against the principles of socialism. Patriotism is nothing but a bunch of people celebrating the fact that they own a huge tract of land. Hardly socialist.

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

I disagree with Fidel, and I think his obssesion with Cuba, China and the Soviet Union is really quite silly, however I wouldn't want to see him shot or imprisoned because of his beliefs. Do you really want to see him moldering in a dark cell, or is what you said just bombast?

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Well thanks. And I wouldn't want to see you or The Wiz' shot or imprisoned in a private for-profit or otherwise rat-infested prison, CMOT. So be careful if you're travelling in New York, CHI, Detroit, L.A., Miami, Cancun, San Salvador, Port Au Prince, Santo Domingo, Guatemala, Iraq, Afghanistan, or any of those wild and wooly places in general.

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Just curious what members here feel about Canada,is it the best country in the world?

If not,where would you rather live ?

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
If things got really bad in the great white north where would you go?

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
There's part of the opening post that hasn't been talked about. The person who started this thread asked:

If things got really bad in the great white north where would you go?

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
I disagree with Fidel, and I think his obssesion with Cuba, China and the Soviet Union is really quite silly, however I wouldn't want to see him shot or imprisoned because of his beliefs. Do you really want to see him moldering in a dark cell, or is what you said just bombast?

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http://www.schillerinstitute.org/graphics/maps/landbridge_maps/Bering%20Strait.jpg

[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: bliter ]

[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: Frisko ]

Going to Siberia? Nah. Passing through perhaps on my way to Cannes or Majorca.

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Originally posted by Scout:
I love that Canadians are kind of hesitant to pat ourselves on the back too hard. We know that globally living here is a lot like winning the lottery but we are also well aware that we have room to improve.

I also love the land, it's crazy beautiful in all corners.

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I agree but that's all slipping away in my view. Harper is calling us a new super energy power and is gloating at every international event he attends. He wants Canada to be taken seriously on the military front. He is definitely not a team player when it comes to UN Resolutions.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I like having beavertails and hot chocolate on the Rideau in those few weeks a year when it's actually cold enough to skate on.

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[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: Frisko ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I like having beavertails and hot chocolate on the Rideau in those few weeks a year when it's actually cold enough to skate on.

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My knuckles have been slapped and I can only say skate on.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I read a piece in the Toronto Star which said a lot of Chinese transplants to Canada are having a difficult time trying to get ahead. Many will come here and try to earn advanced degrees while the other partner works. Childcare is too expensive though, and this was one of the reasons they cited for returning to Asia. Childcare in China is affordable. And one study released said that that immigrant women to Canada will suffer a major health setback in the first 15 years living here. Many reverse emigres cited more and better opportunities in China and India.

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I would not be surprised if that is the primary reason for them returning. I have heard similar anecdotes.

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: Liang Jiajie ]

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I am surprised at the patriotism on this board, I think it goes completely against the principles of socialism. Patriotism is nothing but a bunch of people celebrating the fact that they own a huge tract of land. Hardly socialist.

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Thank you 1234567, this thread is really sickening. All of you just celebrating the privileged lives you get to live because of other people's suffering.

Canada is a lie. Stolen land, genocide and exploitation. I'm reminded of the pictures of young Nazi's sitting around on vacation from their duties at the death camp. Some of you couldn't understand it, or thought that they must be sociopaths. Now you know how it feels to be them.

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Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:

Canada is a lie. Stolen land, genocide and exploitation. I'm reminded of the pictures of young Nazi's sitting around on vacation from their duties at the death camp.

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Ya but we're at least polite about it. Europeans think Canadians are docile when it comes to politics. I just thing we need to update our obsolete electoral system and give the other 60 or 70 percent of jaded voters a democratic voice in this Northern Puerto Rico.

I love that Canada was only ranked seventh in terms of wait times for elective surgery in a recent comparison of developed nations and not any worse. I love that its only doctors in short supply in this Northern U.S. colony and not registered nurses all at the same time, because then I might begin to think something was wrong with the country I love enough to be critical of.

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Canada is a lie. Stolen land, genocide and exploitation. I'm reminded of the pictures of young Nazi's sitting around on vacation from their duties at the death camp. Some of you couldn't understand it, or thought that they must be sociopaths. Now you know how it feels to be them.

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How is speaking about Canada's physical beauty, T.V. programs, healthcare system, food, etc etc at all similar to supporting a fachist regime or sending millions of Jews, Roma and homosexuals to the gas chambers? No one on this thread has condoned Canada's treatment of first nations people.

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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How is speaking about Canada's physical beauty, T.V. programs, healthcare system, food, etc etc at all similar to supporting a fachist regime or sending million of Jews Roma and homosexuals to the gas chambers? No one on this has condoned Canada's treatment of first nations people.

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Canadian gas chambers are starvation, Residential Schools, suicide, addiction, Tasers, bullets and poverty.

Every time you buy land, paper, wood, minerals, gas, or products that use these tings you are benefiting and supporting genocide on a scale many times greater than the Holocaust.

We are all responsible. When we celebrate Canada we lose sight of this.

The beauty of the land we all live on is there in spite of Canada. As is the beauty of all of us who live hear as we struggle to survive.

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: Le Téléspectateur ]

Now, is Canada the best country in the world? I don't know. Some countries (social democracies like Norway and Sweden) are better in some ways (notably areas such as gender and economic equality, and foreign policy), but in some ways they might be worse (for instance, Sweden apparently has fairly draconian drug laws and has been accused of pushing within the EU to stop other European countries from relaxing their own laws). I also wonder about ethnic issues; although Canada has a rather mixed record on these matters, to say the least, I can't help but wonder how good those countries are on these matters; my impression is that their demographics are far more uniform than ours, and although that in itself doesn't prove anything I think that countries that are that homogeneous in this day and age have probably had to work at it, if you catch my drift.

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: Agent 204 ]

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Canadian gas chambers are starvation, Residential Schools, suicide, addiction, Tasers, bullets and poverty.

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I think that by comparing things like Canada's treatment of first nations people to the second genocide of the 20th century, you are disrespecting all those who were murdered in the holocaust. It's much more accurate to compare the brutal treatment of First Nations people to the plight of Palestinian refugees.

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by Agent 204:
I also wonder about ethnic issues; although Canada has a rather mixed record on these matters, to say the least, I can't help but wonder how good those countries are on these matters; my impression is that their demographics are far more uniform than ours, though that in itself doesn't prove anything.

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Finland is one other northern latitudinal country with an indigenous population. And their child poverty rates are not what exists in Canada.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Finland is one other northern latitudinal country with an indigenous population. And their child poverty rates are not what exists in Canada.

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Canada is world renowned for abuse of its native people. In certain ways the historical record of our Liberal and Conservative governments is even worse here than in the U.S.

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Worse than the US? Worse than New Zealand, I don't doubt (in spite of the fact that New Zealand is far from perfect in that regard either). From what you say, we might well be worse than Finland too. But the US? I recall seeing a statistic that the indigenous population of Canada has increased substantially in the last century in spite of the crimes our governments have committed and/or allowed against them, whereas the indigenous population of the US declined during the same period. That would suggest that, overall, we're not quite as bad as the US in that regard (not that that's anything to be very proud of).

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: Agent 204 ]

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Finland is one other northern latitudinal country with an indigenous population. And their child poverty rates are not what exists in Canada.

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Don't the Sami face many of the same difficulties that our first nations do(substance abuse, bigoted governments etc)?

[ 03 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Every time you buy land, paper, wood, minerals, gas, or products that use these tings you are benefiting and supporting genocide on a scale many times greater than the Holocaust.

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Don't the Sami face many of the same difficulties that our first nations do(substance abuse, ethnocentric governments etc)?

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Not even close if you compare Canada's shocking third world infant mortality rates among northern indigenous people with Finland's Sami.

And yes, of course you're right CMOT, I guess I was exaggerating slightly for affect. I just figured most would recall the thousand and one other criticisms I've made about Canada before. We can hold to any number of ideologies and like to flatter ourselves like any other tribe, but generally speaking I don't think anything quite so uncritical as a lot of the "New Jerusalem" themes we hear down south (especialy now) or the abstract notions of what being a "true" Canuck means etc. Our elites are about the only ones who seem to talk about it anymore that I notice, but in practice most want nothing more than being loyal subjects of Empire. A bit more genuine nationalism may not be so bad actually, when our own little colonial construct is under attack by even more assertive ones. But that's just MOV.

[ 04 November 2007: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

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Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
I don't LOVE Canada. Canada has to go to rehab first and show me how they've changed. I've hung on for the last 10 years thinking Canada would change.

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some of the Canadian Cannabis activists are
pretty inspiring too. thinking of Marc B.
at Remarcable Foods, Marc Emery, and the
Compassion Club near the Skytrain station,
the one started by Hilary Black (i think).

your mass transit is pretty good too.

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I think that by comparing things like Canada's treatment of first nations people to the second genocide of the 20th century, you are disrespecting all those who were murdered in the holocaust. It's much more accurate to compare the brutal treatment of First Nations people to the plight of Palestinian refugees.

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I am so freaking sick of this bullshit. Oh...don't dare compare the wiping out of a culture and the death of all the first people's to the Holocaust! No, don't do that. I have sharper words for you but I won't go there. You can, however, take this whole comment and stick it. BTW CMOT, FN people constituted the entirety that is Canada. What is the FN population now? Their lands were stolen, their kids taken away, they were given remote lands to live on, they are governed by a governmental body that does not represent them. They still have to prove their bloodlines by tests. They have high suicide rates, etc. What happened was GENOCIDE. No one group owns that word and it makes me ill when someone claims they do. You might try to show some tact in the future. Are some dead better than others? That is apparently what you are saying.

[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

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I am so freaking sick of this bullshit. Oh...don't dare compare the wiping out of a culture and the death of all the first people's to the Holocaust! No, don't do that. I have sharper words for you but I won't go there. You can, however, take this whole comment and stick it.

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Well, if I'm going to stick this comment up my butt, I should modify it so that it isn't quite so painful.

The Nazis intended to kill every Jew in Europe and they created and followed a detailed and methodical plan to exterminate all of them, successfully executing six million Jews. Had the Germans won the war, Jews would have been systematically eliminated in a few short years.

The treatment of FNs, particularly in recent decades, has been more a matter of passive indifference. Most people simply do not care. But, any fair observer would concede that FN culture is gradually being lost with each passing generation of assimilation—if not through active intent, through passive apathy.

It was genocidal and, for a long time, quite deliberate if you ask me.

[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I think you're wrong about it being passive. For decades, when settlers weren't actively trying to kill off FN people with diseased blankets, they were actively trying to kill their culture by kidnapping their children at a young age, forcing them into residential schools and not allow them to speak their languages, and starve the reserves.

It was genocidal and, for a long time, quite deliberate if you ask me.

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I think that's a good point and is accurate. I was thinking of more about what's happening today. My guess is that today the average Canadian (and American) knows little about FN (and Native Americans)...and doesn't care. And, that apathy is generally reflected in policy.

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
I'm thinkng possible asylum in one of the more temperate regions of South America now. Immgration should be abit easier than in Europe now, and Cana-bucks ought to be worth more than pesos even after Harper is done.

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Prior to the last election, many Americans swore they’d move to Canada if GW Bush was re-elected. Out of 300 million Americans, I think the net flow into Canada was something like 10,000 people (I linked to that number on a different thread months ago and am too lazy to find it now). That means that out of every million Americans, only about 30 moved to Canada (and a significant percentage of those people moved for reasons unrelated to politics). Not exactly an opening of the flood gates.

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What happened was GENOCIDE. No one group owns that word and it makes me ill when someone claims they do. You might try to show some tact in the future. Are some dead better than others? That is apparently what you are saying.

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Your right, actually. The conquest of North America was genocidal(just ask the Beotuk). I just feel that we toss around words like Nazi and Holocaust so much we forget about the true nature of Nazism and the deathcamps. Hitler's servants killed millions of people the third reich considered undesirable in a very short space of time, just like the Turks did to the Armenians and the Hutu did to the Tutsi. They(the germans and there proxies) did it using very specific methods.(gas chambers, Mengele's experiments etc. Can you honestly say that the native peoples of North america were gassed to death, experimented on and almost wiped out in 3 to 6 years?
There was a native north American genocide, but there is only one Holocaust, and to use halocaust imagery like the ovens at Sachsen Hausen in relation to a cruel campiagn of murder and cultural anihalation that took place slowly over a hundred years or more is ridiculous.

Edited to add: rediculous is a strong word, I should have said inacurate.
[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by Sven:
I think the same thing is true with Canadians looking at “greener pastures” elsewhere. There simply aren’t many places that 99.99% of Canadians would rather live.

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It's a big decision to pick up and leave everyone you've ever known for another country. And it would be an expensive move to take your whole family with you thousands of miles away and start over. There have been more concerted efforts toward globalization of corporate rights and capital to cross borders but not so many efforts to secure free movement of labour. In fact, there have been efforts to curb the rights of labour moreso in Canada and the U.S. than the majaority of other rich first world countries since the 1980's.

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“Between 1945 and 2005 the United States has attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements struggling against intolerable regimes... In the process, the U.S. caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair.” (Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower). ”

And,

“ "No matter how paranoid or conspiracy-minded you are, what the government is actually doing is worse than you imagine" (Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower).

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[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
but I honestly can't think of any similarities between the native north american genocide the holocaust? Can you think of any?

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Both the European Holocaust and what has been an ongoing holocaust in the western hemisphere targeted specific ethnic groups. And we know now that political, industrial and financial interests were what were really at stake not threats of communist aggression or Soviet expansion. That was a lie told by the biggest liar of the last century and his propaganda minister in the 1930's. I don't think the fascists and their wealthy backers planned on losing the war of annihilation against communism in Russia. They really didn't plan for a United Nations to be created to protect international borders. Since then they have worked to tear down borders and overrule democratically-elected governments with the power of unbridled capital and trade rules favouring corporate interests over the rights of labour and environmental protections put in place by democratically elected governments.

I think it's been one extended and ongoing genocide over a long time. For starters, I think there were ~~ 50, 000 native children who died prematurely while in custody of the residential schools right here in Canada. Amnesty has described the situation at Buffalo Lake, Alberta as a genocide in progress.

Hidden From History: The Canadian Holocaust And,

Native American
Genocide Still Haunts America

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By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand.

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And apparently Prescott Bush wasn't the last racist in the family: Native Americans Secretly Sterilized - George H.W. Bush YouTube

And extending into Central America, brutal U.S.-backed dictatorships in Guatemala exterminated about a quarter million indigenous people(descendants of the Mayans) from the 1960s to 1980s.

[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]