Having strong girl characters is one thing; there's the question of role models (why do we need role models for girls but we don't talk about it so much for boys - they can just be themselves but girls can't?); but something that to me is 'missing' is the humourous, inventive, interesting girl character who you feel like you want to hang out with. I don't see "tonnes" of those. I don't see "tonnes" of girls in current cartoons and films that aren't either token characters, sidekicks, set up for their looks, or that fall into easily definable categories.

Even if the films aren't necessarily for children or youth, I'd like to know if anyone has other suggestions, such as the one Zoot made:

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I'd rather they watched Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon than Pocohontas, although CTHD is not a children's movie.

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Just to push one of my favourite filmakers, Miyazaki's My Neighbour Totoro deals with two young girls and the brave way they deal with their mother being in the hospital (as well as with their spirit visitors).
Kiki's Delivery Service is probably the perfect movie for young girls, telling the tale of a young witch who moves to the city and starts a delivery business with her flying broom. There's a little danger but nothing really scary and no "bad guys". The lead is wonderfully silly, but resourceful and good-hearted.

But best of all, is Nausicaa herself, a christ-like figure who singlehandedly saves the human race through her refusal to be led down the path of vengeance and violence in Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. It's a perfect fable and she is a perfect hero. Like Mononoke though, it has considerable violence and mature content.

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We have Totoro and Kiki in our DVD library. The girls love them. I don't think they're ready for Nausicaa yet, but someday.

My daughter has a little radio attached to our broom to this day in case she feels herself turning into Kiki and needs to go flying with the cat stuffy she calls Gigi.

She calls the Wizard of Oz "Dorothy" and has watched it many times and we've read the book too. Dorothy is a complex little person, particularly in the book, and obviously a major influence on Miyazaki, especially in Spirited Away. The 80's Disney sequel, "Return to OZ" has a very young Faruza Balk as Dorothy - her Dorothy is even more resilient and resourceful than Judy Garland's. We've rented it a few times. It is quite a bit darker than original. and there's no singing. Not much to sing about really, with all of OZ being enslaved by the Nome King and all... needless to say, my daughter is a fan of the darker toned stuff, so she loved it.

A Little Princess and The Secret Garden

Some interesting discussion ensued from both of those - my daughter liked A Little Princess a bitmore. She really enjoys seeing things that aren't fair made right.

And how could i forget

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Originally posted by Zoot:
Warning, though -- there is some sex and there is one graphic shot where a man takes a weapon to the head -- we edited out that shot on the videotape we got (the kids don't care if there's a blank spot) and we have the full version on DVD. That movie inspired Ms B to take Kung Fu -- two strong female martial artists are better fighters than the men in this film! Zhang Ziyi is poetry in motion. No flies on Michelle Yeoh, either.

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I thought that film worked better as a kids' film than for adults, for some reason, I just didn't get much sense of depth in the characters - but the aesthetics and the action were really good. I didn't remember the sex, though now you mention it, I recall it - pretty unerotic and unsexy, though, more athletic than anything else. Not sure what t'kids would make of it.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Are you stoked for Serenity, CMOT? I played the trailer over and over until I got overstimulated and needed a timeout.

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"A timeout". Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

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It was pretty good, the Wendy character was very good, I think, she came off as more 'real' and complex than Peter.

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Serenity.

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Seconded. That and its parent series Firefly have female characters that are all, in their own way, strong, competent and interesting (if, in once case, frickin' nuts).

There's The West Wing, with C.J. Craig and Abby Bartlett, but while they do get moments to shine that show's really about the boys. And I'm not sure that the WW would be terribly interesting for kids anyway.

The new version of Battlestar Galactica has female characters that are just as strong (and just as flawed) as the male characters around them. Though there's a fair bit of the ol' s3xx0r in the show, so it's likely more for teenagers or older.

Then of course there's the karate-expert, rocketship-buildin', weight-liftin' Texan squirrel, Sandy Cheeks, in Spongebob Squarepants...

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Are you stoked for Serenity, CMOT? I played the trailer over and over until I got overstimulated and needed a timeout.

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Yes, indeed. I hope Zoe get's to kick more butt in the movie then she does in the TV show though. As much as I like Firefly, I don't think Joss allowed the female characters to take a central role in combat.

[ 15 September 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

... what was that movie, "The Last Seduction"? She's a nasty person, but she gets away with everything.

Maude from "Harold and Maude."

... in comix there's Lisa Leavenworth from "Hate." anybody ever read "Hate"?

edited to add: I loved Jane Fonda in "Barbarella" and "On Golden Pond". I never did figure out what "Barbarella" was about, but I was a horny teenager - who cared about plot???

[ 15 September 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

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Originally posted by thwap:
anyone remember "Tank Girl"?

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Maude from "Harold and Maude."

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but the picture reminded me of the drawing style of Gilbert and Hernandez, the "Love and Rockets" guys.

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posted by Boom Boom: I contributed to thread drift by contributing the names of _older_ actresses. My apologies - it didn't sink in that we are discussing _girl_ characters! (at least I mentioned Lindsay Lohan...)

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Originally posted by deBeauxOs:
Mean Girls!! Moms - watch it first, especially if you have the DVD version because the docs that accompany the movie will give you some insight into how to orient the discussion afterwards. Absolutely terrific.

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Well, Ms B saw that one at a birthday sleepover at a friend's house. I think there's a serious age-appropriate caveat that needs to be attached to this one. I wasn't quite prepared to have my not-quite-8 yr old come home and ask me what a "fugly slut" was.

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posted by Zoot: Well, Ms B saw that one at a birthday sleepover at a friend's house. I think there's a serious age-appropriate caveat that needs to be attached to this one. I wasn't quite prepared to have my not-quite-8 yr old come home and ask me what a "fugly slut" was. I think this one should be left for the 10 and up crowd.

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Miyazaki's My Neighbour Totoro deals with two young girls and the brave way they deal with their mother being in the hospital (as well as with their spirit visitors).

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I haven't seen that video for over 10 years and still can't get the theme out of my head

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Originally posted by deBeauxOs:
Zoot, do you have a specific issue with me or my posts? Is this attitude of maternal rectitude and perfection that you express so eloquently, virtuously sharpened only at Babble or is it also deployed when you check out the activities at your daughter's sleepovers?

I did post a caveat about the film, as well as a link to the website to determine if appropriate for one's daughters.

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"Maternal rectitude"? What does that mean? "Perfection"? Believe me, that the first time I've had that accusation lobbed at me.

As J2-2 noted, I was adding to your caveat -- my opinion is that it's really not suitable for the under-10s. And I didn't learn my daughter was seeing the film until after she had -- which was not cool.

I don't know if Mean Girls is really positive for girls or not. On the one hand, it deals with issues that a lot of teenagers live with. On the other, it can provide a template for behaviour to kids who are attention-seekers, and we've run into a few of those. I'm seeing way more bad-ass attitude from my daughter's cohort than my niece's when she was that age, about 10 years ago.

Anyway, I don't think the intended audience for Mean Girls was children -- teenagers, rather.

I haven't specifically had a problem with you or your posts in particular, deBeauxOs, but if you like, I can reconsider...

[ 16 September 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

I haven't seen that video for over 10 years and still can't get the theme out of my head

Hey let's go , hey let's go....

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
Hey let's go , hey let's go....

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