2. Why can't bars close at 3 and the drinking age be 18? I live in a city along the Quebec border, and we have people driving to Quebec because they're only 18 or so that they can go out later...It's bad for business because local establishments are forced to compete against nearby Quebec rivals on an uneven playing field, and it's bad for public safety because it leads to people driving 50 - 100 km when they shouldn't be and when they shouldn't have to. Besides, most of Europe allows bars to be open 24-7...It's the corrupting influence of America and of conservative Americhri$tianity.

What I can't understand for the life of me is why, although they are now legal, practically no byow restaurants for folks of modest means have sprung up in Ontario - the few that do exist charge outrageous "corkage" fees.

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Or will turn people into raging gambliiginally posted by NDP Newbie:
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2. Why can't bars close at 3 and the drinking age be 18? I live in a city along the Quebec border, and we have people driving to Quebec because they're only 18 or so that they can go out later...It's bad for business because local establishments are forced to compete against nearby Quebec rivals on an uneven playing field, and it's bad for public safety because it leads to people driving 50 - 100 km when they shouldn't be and when they shouldn't have to. Besides, most of Europe allows bars to be open 24-7...It's the corrupting influence of America and of conservative Americhri$tianity.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
What I can't understand for the life of me is why, although they are now legal, practically no byow restaurants for folks of modest means have sprung up in Ontario - the few that do exist charge outrageous "corkage" fees.

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I was living in Montreal when Quebec first allowed BYOW restaurants, and if I recall correctly, there were lots of little restaurants that didn't have a liquor license and were delighted to offer the service, since they were already making their profit strictly on food sales.

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Does anyone know about the history of government liquor stores? Are they there for "progressive" pro-public sector reasons or for socially conservative (i.e. the govt. needs to strictly regulate alcohol consumption) reasons?

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The latter, without a doubt. People I know remember a time when the LCBO would keep track of how much liquor each person bought. Then, if you had maybe three bottles a month, they would cut you off.

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Originally posted by The Vicious:
At 18 i could buy beer, hell I did at 17 and no one cared.

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Did they do anything similar to that at the beer stores?

BTW, lagatta, it was definitely 18 in Quebec, at least when I was in my late teens and early 20's. So unless the drinking age in Quebec has changed in the last decade (and you'd think there would have been enough of a fuss that we'd have heard about it in the news), it's must still be 18.

Makes a lot more sense than the stupid 19 year age here. Old enough to be tried as an adult, old enough to pay taxes, sign up for the military, vote, and be an adult in every sense. But to drink? Gosh no.

Edited to say: oh, you were talking about Ontario! I don't know, seems to me it's been 19 here ever since I can remember, and I seem to remember my father telling me it was 21 before that - but I may be mistaken.

[ 28 April 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by NDP Newbie:
3. Why are cities so anal about regulating champagne rooms? The behaviour of consenting adults is not the business of municipal tea-totalers.

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OK, I have to ask...

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Mah schweety sez it's all the fault of the uptight Prebyterians. And, him being a former uptight Presbyterian, I guess I'll have to believe him...

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Oh man! I knew about when you had to write your name and address down when buying liquor, but I had no idea that they had a three-bottle-per-month limit! When did they stop doing that?

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It was even worse than that. My parents told me they used to have "Liquor Books"...a little booklet you carried with you and when you went to the Liquor Store, they wrote in it what you bought. They used to call them into evidence in court if they wanted to call your character into question.

There's a 8mm home movie of my parents and a couple of aunts and uncles standing at the Ontario/Manitoba border, tearing up their Liquor Books.

[ 28 April 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Oh man! I knew about when you had to write your name and address down when buying liquor, but I had no idea that they had a three-bottle-per-month limit! When did they stop doing that?

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Originally posted by Krago:

OK, I have to ask...

What is a champagne room?

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An enclosed area of an establishment with erotic dancers in which people pay for private dances.

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I don't know, seems to me it's been 19 here ever since I can remember, and I seem to remember my father telling me it was 21 before that - but I may be mistaken.

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Funny, my image of a "champagne room" was rather more twee, and upscale - I was imagining smoked salmon, caviar, all sorts of dainties ... It could certainly include hookers, but they would be more of the "escort" variety...

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Originally posted by quelar:
I'm all for a review of the laws, but are Drinking, Gambling and Strippers your biggest beefs with the Ontario Government?

If so, perhaps you want to start watching the Ontario legislature a little closer.

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Funny, my image of a "champagne room" was rather more twee, and upscale - I was imagining smoked salmon, caviar, all sorts of dainties ... It could certainly include hookers, but they would be more of the "escort" variety...

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I've never heard of a Champagne Room., and I thought I was an expert on this. My grandfather owned a hotel and kept the signs reading "Ladies and escorts" and "Gentlemen" long after they were necessary. I got the feeling that drinking back then must have been akin to crack smoking. The "Gentlemen's" side was such a dive, he never managed to clean off the stink of depravity from it. We never went in there. He was also a bootlegger.

At present, I can only find this one picture of the show,

Anyhow, I don't have a problem with gambling being restricted in Ontario.

I do have a problem with drinking ages, but then I think any set drinking age is stupid. Let parents introduce alcohol to their kids slowly and socially (sips at the table when you're little, progressing to moderate half-servings during teen years, etc.) and then it won't seem like such forbidden fruit to teenagers.

Expanding consumerism, demographically or temporally, as suggested here, would hardly benefit society or the environment. Furthermore, in a 'global village' where children are dying of lack for lack of clean water, medication and of malnutrition, I would feel -how to put it, awkward- suggesting that 17 year olds should be enabled to join the consumer crowd.

After all it is not vitamins or some necessities of life that are "prohibited". (I put quotations because they can drink at home, if their parents allow it).

Progressive as I claim to be, I would oppose and resist marketeer's profit-oriented, caring-bereft push for more consumerism and state's run for more taxes, not to invest for the good of society but to buy guns and tanks to kill people e do not even know (as is the case now in Ottawa).

[ 03 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

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Well, in that case, don't let them buy anything at all. No children allowed in stores or allowed to buy anything at all until they're 19.

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Originally posted by Mush:
I think England is a good example of that right now. The pubs close at 11, but I've never seen such a bunch of ...well...drunken louts.

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it is a sociological wonderland to go out on an English high street on a Saturday night:

parades of people on the sidwewalks, with girls dressed up in small towns, I mean really dressed up prom-night-like in some cases, groups of guys prowling around, big signs with "NO TEAM COLOURS" on many pubs and bars, then the emptying of bars at the (old) closing time, and a wave of wretching fools and yelling idiots

what a spectacle

re Quebec:
way way back in the 1970s, it saved me from the Ontario laws, being able to go out at basically 16 and get a few drafts at the (old) Chien d'or postal workers bar in Old Quebec, getting high-octane Brador beer by the case, cider at dépanneurs, etc etc.

what a relief ...

then back to Toronto, and back to drinking Mateus Rose (beeurk! ) pink wine out behind the arena, until the big men appeared out of the shadows: "Metro Police!", and the 16 year olds (some were 15) get summoned to Old City Hall for a $25 fine

ridiculous

[ 03 March 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]

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then back to Toronto, and back to drinking Mateus Rose (beeurk! ) out behind the arena, until the big men appeared out of the shadows: "Metro Police", and the 16 year olds (some were 15) getting summoned to Old City Hall for a fine

ridiculous -Geneva

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This is in addition to what I wrote above:

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Expanding consumerism, demographically or temporally, as suggested here, would hardly benefit society or the environment. Furthermore, in a 'global village' where children are dying for lack of clean water, medication and of malnutrition, I would feel -how to put it, awkward- suggesting that 17 year olds should be enabled to join the consumer crowd.

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Someone said that our North American culture encourages a boyish mentality among men. Males learn to want expensive toys and cherish time spent watching sports on TV. - Fidel

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Originally posted by adam stratton:
In the wider scheme of things, Fidel, I would rather prioritize any militancy I have towards demanding the elimination of post-secondary tuition fees for our youth than providing more opportunity to drink. They will drink, if they so wish, eventually.

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Originally posted by the bard:
Does anyone know about the history of government liquor stores? Are they there for "progressive" pro-public sector reasons or for socially conservative (i.e. the govt. needs to strictly regulate alcohol consumption) reasons?

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I have an alternate theory of how they persist... upper middle class Ontarians want a good selection of wines when they are up in Muskoka. My family cottages in the Laurentians, and let me tell you, deppaneur wine is not so great (spruce beer on the other hand...).

The LCBO is a good example of upper class socialism - taxpayers subsidize relatively good selection of upper end fare that would be otherwise difficult to get. I really wonder how many people buy black label scotch in my LCBO (on Brock avenue, a half-block from the grittiest part of Queen Street West - ie. prostitutes and crackheads).

Liquor laws aren't about morality so much as keeping certain people out. Parts of Parkdale-High Park had prohibition on the books such that bars couldn't set up, until the late 90's (actually a socialist prohibitionist unseated George Drew in his successful run for premier and unsuccessful run for a seat). I would argue it is more about keeping working class drinkers out of the High Park area (prohibition just happened to coincide strongly with the more well-heeled part of the riding).

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Originally posted by Fidel:
There are too many drunken louts loitering around. Our wise and courageous leaders should crackdown on this drunken loutedness with military conscription. And then they will know that freedom isn't free!!! Er, ya!

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I really wonder how many people buy black label scotch in my LCBO (on Brock avenue, a half-block from the grittiest part of Queen Street West - ie. prostitutes and crackheads).

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Originally posted by Geneva:
and the 16 year olds (some were 15) get summoned to Old City Hall for a $25 fine

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We have a lot of underage drinking in this region. Alcohol abuse is a significant problem for teens in our area.

I once sat around with 4 or 5 women and they all related stories of being raped at bush parties, because they were drunk.

There was a significant case here a year ago with a girl who was successful in seeing a guilty verdict for a sexual assault at a party.

I think to discuss the changing the drinking age or access, needs also to frame a discussion on attitude, safety and responsibility.

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Actually, I'm in Montreal right now on business and LOVE being able to get a bottle of wine or case of beer at a corner store. I really have no idea what the continued justification for the LCBO's monopoly is. If it's to prevent underaged kids from buying alcohol, you'd figure that they'd also have to stop corner stores from seling cigarettes for that same reason. I think it's just that the LCBO is a big cash cow for the government and they don't want to give up the revenue.

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I would think this is a pretty accurate assessment. The LCBO and Beer stores make money so why give it up. The laws should be reviewed though and it's a good idea to bring them up to date. I like the idea of being able to order a bottle of wine when eating out and then bring it home. It's the difference between having to settle for a house wine or half litre that isn't as good as a bottle of another wine on the list. It makes the meal a lot more enjoyable and better sales for the restaurant. I especially like that when touring in BC because local, smaller wineries sell specifically to local restaurants so you can't get the wine in other places or at the government wine stores. Bringing your own to a restaurant is sensible too. It would take the pressure off of some smaller places having to get a liquor license and carrying a stock. The license should be a different category and a lesser fee. I also agree that buying wine and beer in a corner store makes sense and I like being able to do that in Montreal.