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Topic: Fourth wave of Second wave?
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dianal who asked to be unregistered
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4192
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posted 23 October 2003 05:54 PM
I came to rabble.ca on the recommendation of my peers in organizations working in sectors of women's support services, and I joined mostly because of Judy. She was once in the same workshop as I was, that had more attendees than chairs, so we sat on the floor. I have followed her activities ever since, and she always impresses me.I'm searching for a 2000 version of the 1970's version of feminist thinkers and doers. Remember Kate Millett and Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan and bell hooks and anne wilson shaef, phyllis chessler, etc. etc. Progressive, innovative thinkers and doers. These women inspired me in my initial feminist work, challenged my thinking by presenting new ideas and information. These were the days before academic feminism, before women's studies was created or accredited, before global issues, environmental issues, before feminism branched out. I care about the issues for women in other countries, of course. Because most times they are the same predominant issue - violence. I remember participating in the consciousness raising groups, and see many of today's online communities and women's studies programs doing the same, and that is a good thing. This will always have a place in the women's movement. Despite my search for like minded, same or similar backgrounded feminists, I find that I feel like a woman I heard at a conference years ago....who stepped up to the microphone and said "I don't see myself represented on that panel. When my sister got married, my mother told me I could bring my girlfriend, but asked us to not dance at the wedding. We could attend, but please don't participate". I am not looking to repeat the past in any sense other than breaking new ground in issues of concern to women, and I'd like to talk specifically about Toronto, Ontario and Canada. References to similarities in other countries, even the United States of course, but relate those to how they apply to our lives here and now, and where we can take that information and use it to effect change, however minimal. Any issue of discrimination, race, sexual orientation, poverty, homelessness, divorce and the impact of these to women....beyond an academic or consciousness raising agenda. Some of us are in positions to influence on behalf of women on these issues. This is what I came here to find. Could anyone point me in the right direction? [ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal ]
From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003
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Sara Mayo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3714
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posted 26 October 2003 06:04 PM
quote: I want local active cross the line feminists who are out there doing and living who aren't 20 years old and protesting with OCAP
There are lots. Not being from Toronto (as you are), I'm no expert but here are some of the very well and one not so well known one who would probably fit your definition: Judy Rebick Michelle Lansberg Olivia Chow Ann-Marie MacDonald Mariko Tamaki But I am sure you could list many more than me. Maybe this group would interest you: Toronto Feminism Meetup Group
From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003
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dianal who asked to be unregistered
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4192
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posted 26 October 2003 10:30 PM
..and..here is something I wrote and was published in feminist quarterlies and used years later in a film called 'women's voices' :Court - (first published 1991) Eight years old woeman - molested - in court now. The man who hurt her is sitting in court. He is guarded and protected. "No screen" the judge orders. She is not naive, or too young. She is not innocent, he says. On the stand she wets herself. On the stand she cries. The man who hurt her smiles at her. He licks his lips. During a break the crown attorney asks her to leave the room. The discussion will be about the assault. She is too old and experienced for the protection of the screen. She is too young to have benefit of counsel. I see this eight year old - ignored. In the confusion of the families she has been lost. She is alone. It is my role to be with her while she testifies. When the judge comes in she cries and clings to me. "We have to go in now" I whisper to her. More sobbing. "I'll be right there beside you", I say. "No one can hurt you or touch you. I won't let them". I take a very small, cold hand into mine. I open the court room doors. I lead this sobbing child past spectators and past the man who assaulted her. They all stare - the defence attorney, two bailiffs, police officers, the crown attorney, court reporters and the judge. These men have power. They stare at this eight year old woeman without power. They are all part of the assault. They are not on her side. I am the only person who is on her side. Another break. I am in the room with her and she cries. "How much longer?" I tell her " You are doing well. It's okay to cry. It hurts. This isn't fun. You are doing a good thing to tell the truth. Stay with the truth". I explained at the start that the defence lawyer, the man with gray hair and the black robe, is in court for the man who hurt her. "He is not your friend. He might pretend to be friendly - but he isn't really. Take your time. Stay with what you know. Don't guess or feel that you must give an answer - you don't. I will be there. I will help you". It occurs to me that we teach our children to "tell". To tell and keep telling until someone listens. She did that. Now I am part of the ongoing assault and abuse. She does not want to be here. She does not understand. She is the focus of attention. We, particularly me I feel, are putting her on the stand. We are putting her up there for everyone to see, hear and to take shots at. She does not understand the insinuations made to her, although she feels and senses the blaming of her in the questions: "Do you like to wear your Mom's underwear"? "Didn't you ask him to rub your back"? Afterwards - I tell her "It was not your fault. He is bad - not you". My thoughts are very difficult for me. I want to push them away - to not think them. I also know that I must acknowledge what I am thinking. That I saw myself, my role, like this: The child is lying on her back - I am kneeling at her head - stroking her face and brow - "It's okay - I am here - I'll make sure no one hurts you. You're doing the right thing". She is crying. She is crying because each man in that court is raping her. And I am allowing that. (My experience of being with an eight year old in court. She was sexually assaulted by a man who works as an ambulance attendant, volunteers at the local boys and girls club, and was a friend of the family. She was assaulted by him in her home on Christmas Day.)
From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003
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windymustang
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4509
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posted 27 October 2003 10:16 AM
I thought the topic was 4th wave of 2nd wave, not trash windymustang. Here I am responding to your baiting. If you want to fight, why don't we meet on Main Street at High Noon. Ten paces and draw. Go get a life and I'll talk to you when you grow up. You know Dianal, this was a good post at first, too bad you ruined it with this crap.
From: from the locker of Mad Mary Flint | Registered: Oct 2003
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 27 October 2003 10:48 AM
Being of Dianal's generation and, since I live in Québec, obviously not an OCAP member, I'd like to know what on earth anyone would have against 20-year-old feminists who are OCAP supporters? I'm really glad that there are young women out there with a militant fighting spirit - I don't necessarily agree with all of OCAP's tactics but certainly support militant action against the war on the poor. As we used to say in my time: Right on, sisters! [ 27 October 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873
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posted 27 October 2003 12:17 PM
quote: Being of Dianal's generation and, since I live in Québec, obviously not an OCAP member, I'd like to know what on earth anyone would have against 20-year-old feminists who are OCAP supporters?
I was wondering the same thing. There are lots of tactics used by OCAP (and others) that I don't necessarily support or believe are effective, but I'm not sure what the age of activists has to do with anything. The whole idea that only feminist voices of a certain age and experience are valid, that strikes me as odd. I mean, I'm 42 now, but I became active when I was in my 20s, as a front-liner for the OCAC (Ontario Coalition for Abortion Clinics). I was very inexperienced, but I don't recall being excluded or blown off by any of the older women. It was kind of cool, being the beneficiary of so much experience. I'm still in touch with a couple of women, one in her 70s and another in her 80s, who are still very active in anti-poverty and affordable housing issues. I'm friends with their daughters, and I can't tell you how cool it is to get a couple of generations of feminists together to compare notes.
From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 27 October 2003 12:25 PM
I'm 58, just a couple of months away from Judes, feminism dating from about the same time, too -- and I went to the September OCAP rally in Yorkville. Lotta fun, too. OCAP gave space and support as well on that occasion to First Nations groups, especially the campaign for an inquiry into the death of Dudley George. We all know that OCAP has a particularly sharp focus; but we also all know that there are ways and ways of being critics of other activists. Helping others to enlarge their tent is often mutually beneficial. [ 27 October 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595
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posted 27 October 2003 01:00 PM
quote: Edited due to a misinterpreted therefore only personally damaging and wasted effort. [ 27 October 2003: Message edited by: dianal ]
Wow, what a cheap tactic. I really wish someone had copies it first. By editing it you are playing the victim. Sadly, your only a victim of your self-righteous, ageist version of feminism. People aren't misinterpreting you. They are just calling you on your judgmental and condescending attitude to other feminists. Apprently, you really do have a lot to learn about feminism still. I have plently to learn from older feminists and plenty to share. Each generation of women have different challenges as women. Laws change, society changes, new voices emerge and things get done differently. I may know more of the written history of feminism than a 17 year old but that doesn't make her less feminist than myself, I understand that she faces different challenges than I did a 17 and goes ahead to a differnt playing field than I did. She may take many things for granted because of women that have come before her, just as I did, but I am not about to beat her over the head with it. I am going to be happy she can do so.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 27 October 2003 01:14 PM
Here are some fine text and film documents about feminists of my mother's generation, whom I am proud to have known. Léa passed away in 2000, but Madeleine is fortunately still with us, and you can see a picture of her at the Quebec counter summit seated with two ladies from the Madres de Plaza de Mayo. My fondest memories of both Léa and Madeleine concern public transport. I always seemed to meet Léa on the bus, and needless to say she would have many a story to tell. As for Madeleine, several times I met her on the train between here and Ottawa or here and Toronto - sometimes we had returned from the same meeting without knowing beforehand. Just as proud as I am to know kick-ass 20-year-old, or younger, feminists. After all, Léa and Madeleine kicked a few tuchis in their day too, eh? http://www.editions-remuemenage.qc.ca/dememfem/parentroback.html Madeleine Parent, Léa Roback
Entretiens avec Nicole Lacelle Syndicalistes, féministes, militantes pour la paix, ces pionnières ont beaucoup à dire sur les événements qu'elles ont vécus et sur une foule de sujets qui nous préoccupent : la montée du fascisme en Europe, l'organisation syndicale et les femmes en grève, les femmes pendant la guerre, le racisme, l'avortement, l'amour et les enfants... 181 pages, illustré, 1988, 17,95 $ ISBN 2-89091-074-1 http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/2/12/h12-308-e.html Des lumières dans la grande noirceur (A Vision in the Darkness) about Léa Roback http://www.cybersolidaires.org/actus/effetmp.html L'Effet madeleine about Madeleine Parent
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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dianal who asked to be unregistered
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4192
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posted 27 October 2003 01:29 PM
OCAP is a well oiled advocate machine...one that I admire and support. John Clarke and I had a great conversation once riding home from work on the subway, a conversation about his vision and methods and reasons for doing the work he does. The agency I worked with provided support to several of OCAP's protests, at my instigation. We'd be hard pressed to find many people over 40, other than John Clark, who work at OCAP. That's just their membership base. Taking skdadl's advice: Are any members here discovering or participating in new and innovative feminist initiatives? Sistering for example, is a downtown drop in for homeless and marginally housed women. It's a support service. The Friendship Centre, also downtown, has women only Wednesdays in their drop in. Support Services. I would like to become involved in something larger than a support service. In something that addresses a core issue and works for a change in that specific oppression of women. Personally, years ago I moved away from feminist issues into issues of poverty, not gender specific. I feel myself returning to women's issues and as I look around, I don't see any groups like I knew of or was a part of in the 80's and 90's. For example, I worked for years with SCOPE and Mothers On Trial in Toronto. Along with other individuals and groups we fought to have the child support and custody laws changed. The laws were changed and they continue to change. . I also worked with the Elizabeth Fry Society and for a time was their Acting President. I've moved on from there as well. Another example...I was a member of a feminist collective in my hometown when it came to our attention that the local leaders and police force had decided to target street prostitutes for arrest and rehabilitation, specifically to film them with cameras mounted on the roofs of businesses on one of their strolls.. Representing that collective, I went into the streets with the local AIDS outreach workers and got to know the women working the streets. I also travelled to Toronto to meet with prostitutes rights groups, Maggie's and CORPS. We then met with the local police, the mayor and the business community. The cameras were removed and their longterm plans were scrapped. I want to become involved in something tangible, local and specific to my city, province, country.. In my five months on this site, I haven't found any postings about local feminist organizations or groups that have tackled an issue head on with a view to changing what presently exists. So basically, I am putting out a request for information or leads on feminist initatives. It was never my initial attention to offend or denigrate anyone, and after a brief hiatus into flamewar land, it is again not my intention to offend anyone or their opinions but to share my own. Thank you in advance.
From: There is a deep lack of respect in the belief that we know what others need... | Registered: Jun 2003
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 27 October 2003 01:46 PM
dianal, I can only speak for myself: my politics for the last few years have been limited to the immensely personal because I've been living as a primary caregiver -- and for the time being, that's as explicit as I'm prepared to be on the board.During that time, though, I have learned about an extraordinary organization called The Older Women's Network. One day, when my commitments change, I will definitely work with these grils. Boy oh boy, are they ballsy. Both the city and the provincial governments have learned to duck when they see OWN representatives coming. I was delighted to see, btw, when I called up their website, that the heroic woman who introduced me to OWN, Jean Houston, is pictured on the banner at the top of their home page. See the woman to the far left of the banner? That's my Jean. She is 86 years old. She is sharper and more active than I -- than most of us, I should think. She was once the senior editor at U of T Press. These days, she gets up in the middle of harsh winter nights and marches out to help anyone who needs her. She's never met a government that didn't infuriate her. She is such a delight. Take a look at the work that OWN is doing. They, for instance, continued to force through the last co-op apartment project to go through in this city, even after megacity horrors stopped the co-op movement (temporarily, we hope).
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000
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posted 27 October 2003 02:33 PM
I suppose I'm a young feminist, at 25. While I don't belong to any particular group or solidified movement, I do consider myself to be an active feminist.I live by what I believe. I work against the grain of the status quo, and I struggle all the time to find a place for myself that I actually want to inhabit, not one that's pushed upon me from the outside because I'm a woman (or anything else). In my every interaction with other women of all ages (and with men, I guess), I do my best to foster supportive relationships, to minimize or squelch acrimony, raise awareness, and provide support. If nothing else, I hope that I can have a positive influence on the women around me, and help them as they help me. I also like to bring as many women together as possible every now and then. I think it's just awesome to get a bunch of women of similar or varying ages all in the same place and see what we come up with to do and talk about. I think it also helps to build community and networks of support and ideas and possiblities. [ 27 October 2003: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]
From: s | Registered: Aug 2002
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