You might not like it, but it's not trolling.

You might not like the politics of this individual, but do you really think this is the best response?

As a local example, should McVety be doing 25 years in a Canadian prison?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jrootham:
Posting links to apparently real information about human rights violations in Cuba is not trolling.

---

What it is is a very biased wiki page telling an entirely one-sided story about a Cuban "dissident." Apparently one of Biscet's influences mentioned is Mohandas Gandhi, a socialist whose own country and people would have benefitted largely by Cuban style socialized medicine.

For some balance to the thread, famous American dissident Philip Agee talked about covert and overt U.S. attempts to interfere with Cuba's democracy wrt Cuba's "75." Biscet is not mentioned specifically. And I believe Cuba's Granma site does have something to say about Oscar Elías Biscet.

quote:

---

Cuba is a tightly controlled society, and this looks like a particularly egregious example of it.

---

quote:

---

Posting links to apparently real information about human rights violations in Cuba is not trolling.

You might not like it, but it's not trolling.

You might not like the politics of this individual, but do you really think this is the best response?

As a local example, should McVety be doing 25 years in a Canadian prison?

Cuba is a tightly controlled society, and this looks like a particularly egregious example of it.

---

Right. Linking to a fucking wikipedia article about a political prisoner in Cuba and just throwin' that out there isn't trolling. Have you been on babble before? (sarcastic) What do discussions of Cuba's human rights usually turn into? What about when the discussion is started by a "gee wiz, maybe Cuba ain't that great" bullshit statement and a link to a wikipedia article that really offers no new information and is kind of unbalanced?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jrootham:

As a local example, should McVety be doing 25 years in a Canadian prison?

---

I suspect that the poster sees himself as something of a wannabe resident contrarian on babble. The difference between that and trolling can be blurry.

What the OP is, is not really worth much discussion.

[ 21 August 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

quote:

---

It serves as a little reminder that strangely enough, communism has it's downsides.

---

So WTF does this dude being in jail have to do with the socioeconomic structure called communism.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
But I don't see how evil in one area (American foreign policy) excuses evil in another area (Cuban domestic policy).

---

Over several years I've discovered that
the U.S. has waged propaganda, economic, and terror war against the island of Cuba. I tend to believe that doctor Biscet was participating in U.S. attempts to aid Cubans in committing seditious acts. What the dissidents have done in Cuba amount to sedition, crimes that are on every country's law books. The U.S. would not allow foreign governments to fund political opposition groups in their own country which could destabilize that country similarly. And it's because interfering in another country's democracy is considered illegal by dozens of democratic countries. But it doesn't stop the U.S. from doing just that in dozens of countries around the world. And their are many more historical connections and economic ties between Cuba and the U.S.A., which also happens to be Canada's largest trade partner.

eta: The large majority of Cuba's doctors are actually dedicated to the field of medicine and tend to practice it there in Cuba and around the capitalist third world where people are struggling on a daily basis. Biscet seems to be unhappy about his medical training paid for by the Cuban people and prefers the role as shit disturber.

[ 21 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Milton Friedman said that it is impossible to have personal and social freedom without economic freedom. The inevitable consequence of the state controlling and dominating the economic sphere is the state controlling and dominating the rest of our life. It's not a coincidence that the two largest experiments in Communism - Russia and China - both had death camps where tens of millions of people were murdered by the state, and slave labour for tens of millions of others. It wasn't a coincidence that the communist Khmer Rouge killed millions with their barbaric drive to the countryside.

You are right that over the last few decades the United States has waged a terrorist campaign against Cuba, perhaps the most sustained and vicious the world has seen.

But let me get this straight - you think what has happened to the doctor here is justified? That the actions of the Cuban state were proper? That he deserves to be in jail for his political activities?

Here's what Cuba says about this worm:

quote:

---

The cases of Oscar Elias Biscet, Héctor Palacios Ruiz and José Luis García Paneque, all of them tried and convicted under Law 88 of 1999, for their mercenary activities at the service of the US policy of hostility and aggressions against Cuba. All of them had close conspiracy links with officials from the USIS in Havana. Biscet and Palacios had an official pass signed by the Head of that diplomatic mission, granting him free access to the facility at any time, night and day.

Elías Biscet has committed continued violations of the prison regulations ever since his admission. He has been involved in several acts of contempt and provocation against the penitentiary authorities and has urged other inmates to disrespect the internal regulations of the detention center. Abiding by the prison’s rules, the authorities have had to apply sanctions provided in the disciplinary set of rules for acts of indiscipline, and in a strict observance of the minimum Rules for the treatment of inmates adopted at the First United Nations Congress on the Prevention of Crime and treatment of Prisoners held in Geneva in 1995.

His wife Elsa Morejón Hernández keeps close links with the USIS in Havana, receiving there generous cash and materials from the public and secret shares assigned by the US government to destroy the Cuban constitutional order.

Both Biscet and his wife have active links and they receive instructions and support of terrorist and anti-Cuban groups from Miami.

Biscet has claimed to have a background of hypertension, dyslipidemia and gastritis, a diagnostic that cannot be confirmed by physicians at the detention center as he has refused medical attention. In response to his statements, doctors have indicated a treatment with clortalidone and atenolol. Elias Biscet has been on self-medication with drugs supplied by his family as he continues refusing to take doctors-prescribed medicines at the detention center.

Despite his rejection to respect the regulations of the penitentiary and his refusal to take medical assistance and treatment, the inmate has had the visit of his wife, brother and parents as well as a systematic mail and phone communication with his wife for 100 minutes a month.

None of Biscet’s rights has been violated and his health is good. There is not a single evidence of alleged mistreatment nor has he been denied medical assistance and treatment to attend to the medical background he claims to have.

Bisect acted the mercenary at the service of the power that violates the human rights of the Cuban people and he was tried for that, according to the law in force in Cuba.

He has been responsible for several actions aimed at creating situations that can be used as pretext for a US military intervention against the island.

---

[ 21 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:

I hope you don't think I should be put in jail for my political activities as well

---

I am fairly sure that if American dissidents were to accept a comparatively significant amount of money from Cuban or Chinese or Iranian governments to pay for an appropriate amount of election campaigning, (ie. television and radio broadcast time is the most effective, and most expensive propaganda mediums in the U.S., and tend to be very conservative politically in that country), then all hell would break loose. That will just not happen anytime soon.

quote:

---

Milton Friedman said that it is impossible to have personal and social freedom without economic freedom.

---

[ 21 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
So, wikipedia is horribly biased, but the Cuban governments word in this matter should be treated as unquestionable truth?

---

Here's what Cuba says, for just one instance:

quote:

---

Both Biscet and his wife have active links and they receive instructions and support of terrorist and anti-Cuban groups from Miami.

---

You're saying that may be false. If all the charges against him are false, then of course he should be a free and undisturbed man.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
So, wikipedia is horribly biased, but the Cuban governments word in this matter should be treated as unquestionable truth?

---

If you wanted to be an expert of any subject at all, and every book you have is printed in either Texas or New York, would you look into what is a range of different views published around the rest of the world?

[ 21 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:

Milton Friedman said that it is impossible to have personal and social freedom without economic freedom.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
surely you're all aware that when governments lock up political prisoners they rarely say "it's because they were political prisoners, LOL!".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
No, I don't think 25 years in jail for belonging to a group the government dislikes its justified - if, and this is a big if - the Cuban governments allegations are true. I certainly have no reason to believe the allegations are true; surely you're all aware that when governments lock up political prisoners they rarely say "it's because they were political prisoners, LOL!".

---

So you skate and dance and can't deal with the issue.

You couldn't even take my hypothesis and give a serious opinion. I didn't talk about belonging to "a group the government dislikes". I talked about people alleged to be receiving instructions and financing from a foreign terrorist organization. Simple question, insincere answer.

I also asked you to assume the allegations were accurate, but every fibre in your being prevented you from making that assumption for the entire duration of a typed sentence, even for the sake of discussion.

I, personally, don't know whether the allegations are true or false. But you, based on zero investigation - based, perhaps, on reading the works of St. Thomas - have decided they are false.

I know you're a serious person. But how do comments like the ones cited above help us to distinguish you from a knee-jerk stereotyping frothing-at-the-mouth anti-communist?

kropotkin1951 :

Excuse me? You asked me a question and I answered it. In case you are unclear, my answer was 25 years is too much time, 0 years would be better.

"You couldn't even take my hypothesis and give a serious opinion. I didn't talk about belonging to "a group the government dislikes". I talked about people alleged to be receiving instructions and financing from a foreign terrorist organization. Simple question, insincere answer."

One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. What do you think a "foreign terrorist organization" is, if not a group the government doesn't like? You asked a simple question, I gave a simple answer.

"I also asked you to assume the allegations were accurate, but every fibre in your being prevented you from making that assumption for the entire duration of a typed sentence, even for the sake of discussion."

Do you lack reading comprehension? I answered your question on that basis - but then went on to challenge that basis after I had answered your question.

"I, personally, don't know whether the allegations are true or false. But you, based on zero investigation - based, perhaps, on reading the works of St. Thomas - have decided they are false."

No, that's not what I said at all. What I said was I have no reason to trust the Cuban government - which is not at all the same as saying the accusations are false. I also do not know whether the allegations are true or false. Kindly stop misrepresenting what I say.

"I know you're a serious person. But how do comments like the ones cited above help us to distinguish you from a knee-jerk stereotyping frothing-at-the-mouth anti-communist?"

Why don't you take a look at this thread, and the nonsense that has been leveled in response to my posts, and then come back and apologize to me. I am a serious person, who posted a serious issue, and was treated with disrespect and contempt by apologists of tyrants. And you level accusations towards me that are ill informed and completely false.

"Help us to make that necessary distinction by taking discussion more seriously, please. "

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
If you guys want to talk about the U.S. government, kindly create your own thread and stop attempting to hijack mine.

---

But it is impossible to discuss Cuba without referring to U.S. interference in Cuba dating back even before the 1959 revolution to clean out the U.S.-backed mafia government from Havana.

That's why I'm going to ask you again, and hope that you will anser my question, not the one you prefer to hear.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
If you guys want to talk about the U.S. government, kindly create your own thread and stop attempting to hijack mine.

kropotkin1951 :

As an anarchist, I seek to disestablish the Canadian government. Do you think I should be thrown in jail for treason?

---

Zak is on the wrong side of the political spectrum. He has been since his very first post on this board. Yet some of us keep feeding him, as if he actually can come up with anything comprehensible to help us even believe he is an anarchist. (I for one see nothing anarchist in Zac's posts).

[ 21 August 2008: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:

As an anarchist, I seek to disestablish the Canadian government. Do you think I should be thrown in jail for treason?

---

Mr Young, I've known anarchists. Anarchists have been friends of mine. You're no anarchist.

I am generally successful at non-feeding when I get a whiff of squiffiness. The discipline to (not) do so came after hard lessons, and many lost hours that will never be handed back to me.

I cannot recommend it highly enough. I am a better, happier, more revolutionary person for it.

Seriously, real anarchists are opposed to capitalism - they don't seek to replace state power with corporate power."

I'll note you haven't answered my question - but I will none the less answer yours. I seek to convince people of the illegitimacy of the state. When enough people ignore it, it will go away.

"So you think someone in a democratic country will get less jail time than this Cuban if they are conspiring to overthrow the government except by the ballot box?"

I'm not sure what your point is here, but this is a strawman, I made no such claim.

"Join a Muslim prayer group and go camping and see how long the government leaves you alone

Cuba is doing what all governments of all political stripes do, protect their system of government. If you are into Direct Action like previous American anarchists the American government will likely give you the death sentence at least that is what history shows."

quote:

---

Anarchism is usually considered to be a radical left-wing ideology,[11] and as such much of anarchist economics and legal philosophy reflect anti-authoritarian interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism or participatory economics; however, anarchism has always included an individualist strain,[11] including those who support capitalism (e.g. market anarchists: ancapism, agorism, etc.) and other market-orientated economic structures (e.g. mutualists).[12][13][14] As described by the 21st century anarchist Cindy Milstein, anarchism is a "political tradition that has consistently grappled with the tension between the individual and society."[15] Others, such as panarchists and anarchists without adjectives neither advocate nor object to any particular form of organization. Anarchist schools of thought differ fundamentally, supporting anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.[6] Some anarchists have vocally opposed all types of coercion, while others have supported the use of some coercive measures, including violent revolution on the path to anarchy or utopia.[16]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
" Are you telling me that Benjamin Tucker, Lysander Spooner, Murray Rothbard, David Friedman et. al aren't anarchists?

---

Go get yourselves a new name; Libertarian would be fine but none of the right wing neo-cons you named have anything to do with anarchism. I have read most of the classic anarchist's authors. If you want to understand what anarchism really means try starting with some classic writings. I would point you to George Woodcock, Anarchism: A History of Libertarian Ideas and Movements.

George Woodcock

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
People on welfare in Canada receive money from an organization that has murdered civilians in other countries...

---

But our provincial setups ensure that their poverty is sufficient to be unable to afford seditious activities.

If I was a dissident and wanted to send photos of strategic beach landing areas and fortified defence positions to Miami-based Gladio terrorists and my CIA contacts in Miami and the Keys, the Cubans are will want to know because of prior terrorist attacks on Cubans. And they're not so as naive as to ignore my communications with known CIA agents and foreign governments given wide ranging travel and other privileges in Havana in spite of the U.S. being hostile to Cuba.

The dissenting Cubans were found to have large sums of U.S. money on them. And the U.S. Interests Section officials were allowed to meet regularly with dissidents for a long time leading up to what were obvious attempts to provoke Cuban reaction.

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
The fact that babblers are repeatedly obliged to lash themselves to the mast in order to resist the siren call of the troll is clear evidence that the bar is set much too low for entrance into the babble community.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zak Young:
Are you telling me that Benjamin Tucker, Lysander Spooner, Murray Rothbard, David Friedman et. al aren't anarchists?

---

quote:

---

The U.S. and its Latin American colonial outposts are far more controlled and undemocratic than Cuba. When one realizes that the U.S. incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country in the world - as well as being the largest jailer on the island of Cuba at Guantanamo Bay's U.S. Naval Base - it boggles the mind.

---

You know... um... Fidel, you might not be the most unbiased person to ask this, but can you provide examples of US "colonial outposts" that are more undemocratic and controlled than Cuba. For example, which Latin American states have a crime similar to showing "contempt to the figure of Fidel Castro"?

Here's another good one: "any person shall be deemed dangerous if he or she has shown a proclivity to commit crimes demonstrated by conduct that is in manifest contradiction with the norms of socialist morality."

Now, 35 years ago, most countries in Latin America actually had laws like that on the books. Of course, in the Southern Core Condor countries, it was insulting the army, or insulting the President, or whatever, that was dangerous.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kloch:

You know... um... Fidel, you might not be the most unbiased person to ask this, but can you provide examples of US "colonial outposts" that are more undemocratic and controlled than Cuba.

---

I'll defer you to this thread. You may or may not be interested in the "Friendly Dictators" site which describes "three dozen of America's most embarrassing "friends", a cunning crew of tyrants and corrupt puppet-presidents who have been rewarded handsomely for their loyalty to U.S. interests." And they're actually missing a few more international friendlies from the not so distant past.

Latin America: the hidden war on democracy

quote:

---

Beyond the sound and fury of its conquest of Iraq and campaign against Iran, the world’s dominant power is waging a largely unreported war on another continent – Latin America. Using proxies, Washington aims to restore and reinforce the political control of a privileged group calling itself middle-class, to shift the responsibility for massacres and drug trafficking away from the psychotic regime in Colombia and its mafiosi, and to extinguish hopes raised among Latin America’s impoverished majority by the reform governments of Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia. . .

---

The War on Democracy download Pilger's web video here

[ 22 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kloch:
For example, which Latin American states have a crime similar to showing "contempt to the figure of Fidel Castro"?

---

There are laws, known in Spanish as desacato laws, or "insult" laws, in many Latin American states, such as Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Peru, Uruguay and Venezuela, as well as Cuba.

According to Human Rights Watch, under Cuban law, the crime of disrespect for authority (desacato) covers anyone who “threatens, libels or slanders, defames, affronts or in any other way insults or offends, with the spoken word or in writing, the dignity or decorum of an authority, public functionary, or his agents or auxiliaries.” Such actions are punishable by three months to one year in prison. If the person shows disrespect to the president the sanction is deprivation of liberty for one to three years.

Canada has criminal laws regarding defamatory libel as well. Section 298 of the Criminal Code provides: "A defamatory libel is matter published, without lawful justification or excuse, that is likely to injure the reputation of any person by exposing him to hatred, contempt or ridicule, or that is designed to insult the person of or concerning whom it is published."

quote:

---

Here's another good one: "any person shall be deemed dangerous if he or she has shown a proclivity to commit crimes demonstrated by conduct that is in manifest contradiction with the norms of socialist morality."

---

[ 22 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

25 TIMES the U.S. military and CIA have invaded Haiti to put down popular peoples' revolts against intolerable U.S.-backed dictatorships.

quote:

---

There is no such law in Cuba.

---

I think you should inform Amnesty International of this mistake then...

quote:

---

Orlando Zapata Tamayo, a bricklayer and plumber, was arrested on 20 March 2003 whilst taking part in a hunger strike at the Fundación Jesús Yánez Pelletier in Havana to demand the release of Oscar Biscet and other political prisoners.

He was sentenced to three years' imprisonment in 2003 on charges of showing “contempt to the figure of Fidel Castro”, “public disorder” and “resistance”. In November 2005 he was sentenced to an additional 15 years for “contempt” and “resistance” in prison. In May 2006, he was again tried on the same charges and sentenced to an additional seven-year term. He is now serving a prison sentence of 25 years and six months.

---

Here is the link. Perhaps, you may want to review their reports and advise them of any other corrections on documentation.Cuba Amnesty International's Human Rights Concerns

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Try starting with Haiti. Every time they elect a government that the US doesn't like it gets overthrown. The last coup d'etat was aided and abetted by Canada. In Haiti they don't bother arresting people they merely shoot them down in the streets of the ghettos.

Cuba might not be that great compared to somewhere like Valhalla however compared to Haiti it is down right awesome and even more democratic.

---

The example of Haiti is, in fact, one of the saddest examples of western imperialism in the hemisphere, both of the French and the Americans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kloch:

Incidentally, Fidel, at the risk of starting thread drift, how would you feel about some one posting under the name "Augusto" or "Pinochet"? Or "Stroessner", perhaps.

---

They would likely be pilloried and made jest of on a constant basis here at rabble. Pinochet is loathed around the world for his crimes against humanity.

quote:

---

Incidentally, in what sense is Haiti less internally democratic than Cuba? Could you provide examples?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
Amnesty is misinformed on a lot of things, and they love to share their misinformation with the world.

The words in quotation marks that you bolded do not appear in Cuban law. Amnesty does not provide a source for that quote. It is entirely bogus and unreliable.

---

Wow, that's a good catch by yourself. Are you going to notify AI about this mistake?

quote:

---

... how would you feel about some one posting under the name "Augusto" or "Pinochet"? Or "Stroessner", perhaps.

They would likely be pilloried and made jest of on a constant basis here at rabble. Pinochet is loathed around the world for his crimes against humanity.

---

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Castro presides over a one-party state that has ruled Cuba for over 40 years, and has killed numerous dissidents and imprisoned people for political crimes. In fact, he has killed more people than Pinochet, Stroessner, the Brazillian Generals, Fujimori and a good many of the former Latin American dictators. Yet calling yourself Fidel doesn't invite ridicule, but calling yourself Pinochet does? That is confusing.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fidel:
[thread drift]
I'm sure there is something there in the link to an appopriate thread above. Haitians are desperately poor people in spite of their trading freely with the U.S. Cuban physicians and aid workers have tried to help the islanders over the years, but a series of U.S. military and CIA interventions to crush democracy in Haiti have worked to maintain a sense of hopelessness and despair among the large majority who are poor and to prop up a rich and privileged class rule in Haiti. Democracy is the right's most hated institution.[/drift]

---

Yes, Haiti is desperately poor, and has been since their slave uprising in 1815. However, if we're not going to be intellectually dishonest or cynical, we wouldn't use suffering in one country to justify or excuse it in another. And no, I'm sorry, but political repression is worse in Cuba than Haiti. It is possible, you know, to have superior economic development and political repression.

quote:

---

Democracy is the right's most hated institution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kloch:
quote:
Castro presides over a one-party state that has ruled Cuba for over 40 years.

---

So if the cuban communist party were to split itself into communist parties 1, 2, and 3 - our system, except that here they're capitalist parties - you'd be satisfied?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kloch:
Wait a minute, I'm confused. Castro presides over a one-party state that has ruled Cuba for over 40 years,

---

We've had phony-majority rule in Canada for longer than Castro ruled Cuba, with emphasis on the past tense.

See Richard Levins' Progressive Cuba bashing talking about Cuba's socialist democracy.

quote:

---

And no, I'm sorry, but political repression is worse in Cuba than Haiti. It is possible, you know, to have superior economic development and political repression

---

Some of the younger members of our troupe became good friends with the younger artists we were hanging around with in Santiago. On at least one occasion the Cuban artists were hassled by Cuban police for associating with us. The organizers had to get the artists id for the conference to remove that threat.

quote:

---

We've had phony-majority rule in Canada for longer than Castro ruled Cuba, with emphasis on the past tense.

---

Firstly, the sentence makes no sense, gramatically. "Phony-Majority rule" - what does that mean? Honestly, the statement is just gibberish. I guess you're trying to say, please correct me if I'm wrong, that Canada actually is a dictatorship, but a benign and more sophisticated one than Cuba. I'm afraid I can't address the comment above until you use proper English.

quote:

---

See Richard Levins' Progressive Cuba bashing talking about Cuba's socialist democracy.

---

Yes, Cuba does have elections. Once the local candidates are vetted by the CDRs, which, I understand, also monitor local households to see if anyone is counter-revolutionary. Imagine if Stephen Harper announced that he was going to create "Committee's to Safeguard Canada Against Terrorism", and asked those committee's to monitor households in their neighbourhood, and report suspicious activities, review election candidates, I wonder what kind of postings we'd see on babble?

quote:

---

Haiti is a tragedy, and one of dozens of bad examples where the U.S. military and CIA have interfered politically and militarily, about 25 times from last century to this same decade. Haiti is a U.S. client state and thirdworld capitalist shithole that stands out from the rest of the U.S.-influenced shitholes where people have no health care, very few basic human rights, and can't afford to eat dirt

---

In short, it's a phony majority because they didn't get the support of a majority of voters but do have a majority in the House.

So Fidel, just because you didn't see it, it doesn't happen?

quote:

---

In fact, he has killed more people than Pinochet, Stroessner, the Brazillian Generals, Fujimori and a good many of the former Latin American dictators.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fidel:
That's too bad, rootham. I can say from own experience and from speaking with friends who've visited Cuba in general, none of us ever mentioned police harassment when socializing with locals. I did have two separate close calls with a bartender and one coco taxi driver in Havana though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kloch:
Firstly, the sentence makes no sense, gramatically. "Phony-Majority rule" - what does that mean?

---

Google "Wilf Day" and "electoral reform" Should point you back to this site. Obsolete electoral systems are conducive to autocratic rule by plutocracy. Canada has only had four real majority federal governments since world war one.

The phony baloney majority

Our ‘Managed Democracy’(U.S.)

U.S. managed elections, with the threat of violence,
are called "democratic" (vicious empire)

quote:

---

Originally posted by jrootham:
So Fidel, just because you didn't see it, it doesn't happen?[/qb

---

All I said was that between myself, several friends and family members who've been to Cuba, we've never been harassed or observed any other instances of police harassment. I'm not saying Cuba is unique among dozens of other countries including Canada and USA in that regard, only that I've never seen it.

quote:

---

[qb]The Committees in Defence of the Revolution still exist, but most people don't seem to have much respect for them.

---

This has happened in BC with our hospitals and ferries also. Neocon ideologues get to run the most important parts of our public policy without ever running for election or telling citizens what their believes are and how those believes will be integrated into our public space. The P3 nightmare here is even worse. When the government has entered into P3 agreements like they did for the RAV line they tell the citizens whose money from taxes is being spent that they can't look at the details because it would infringe on the corporations rights.

Democracy in BC is a facade. Democracy in Cuba is a facade.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fidel:

Ask the average Canadian on the street what they think of their local, provincial, or even federal government. I'm guessing you'll receive an earful nine times out of ten. It's the same in Cuba. A significant difference is that a larger percentage of Cubans actually participate in their democracy compared to here or the U.S. There are elections happening all the time in Cuba. It's very democratic. I think a large percentage of Canadians and Americans are entirely frustrated by our obsolete electoral systems. Our's are limited democracies. And like the U.S., Canada has its own very wealthy and influential king-makers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:

Perhaps we should do a poll. Given the choice, would you live under Cuba's or Canada's allegedly democratic systems?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Would you actually explain both systems or would the polling questions be like the following.

Do you prefer our cherished Canadian democracy or would you prefer to live under Cuba's godless communism?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:

Democracy in BC is a facade. Democracy in Cuba is a facade.

---

B.C. hasn't had to endure a 40 year-long genocidal trade embargo.

None of B.C.'s premiers have had to avoid over 600 CIA-mafia attempts to assassinate them since 1959.

B.C. was never attacked militarily by a CIA-gusano contingent to overthrow the government.

British Columbia has never been the target of hundreds of terrorist attacks by CIA-backed and funded rightwing whackos based out of Miami

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
So a poll would suffice for you. By that democratic standard it is apparent that Iraq had WMD because the polls in the Excited States all pointed to most Americans believing that. If most Canadians agree that the US is evil does it make the US evil. If most Canadians believe that Turkey is not democratic does that prove anything?

How about a poll that says so do the citizens of Cuba, Haiti or Saudi Arabia have more input into their governments decisions. Would such a poll prove anything?

---

The poll is not intended to prove anything, other than whether people here who refuse to see any of the negativities of Cuba would willingly live under such a system. A system where regularly challenging and disparing the leader of one's country and the ruling party on a forum like babble is not allowed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:

I am curious weather people are serious in their opinions that Cuba is more democratic and a better place to live than Canada.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:

I am curious weather people are serious in their opinions that Cuba is more democratic and a better place to live than Canada.

---

I'm more curious to know whether you think comparing life in Canada, the second-largest country in the world exporting most of its natural resource wealth to corporate America, to that of a tiny Caribbean island nation is a meaningful comparison? Why not compare Cuba with another island nation just 55 miles from Cuba which was invaded by the US military and CIA over 25 times from last century to this same decade?

quote:

---

I am curious weather people are serious in their opinions that Cuba is more democratic and a better place to live than Canada.

---

quote:

---

Or how about imagining the island of Newfoundland or PEI having to endure a 45 year-long genocidal embargo by the mainland and fending off numerous attempts to interfere politically with those islands? What if the tiny populations of PEI or Newfoundland were suddenly faced with having to manufacture a wide range of basic necessities and items that would normally be imported from either the mainland or other countries friendly with the mainland? - things like insulin needles, toilet paper, aspirin, veterinary supplies and so on? Comparing apples with apples tends to be more helpful in understanding real world situations.

---

Democratic Peoples' Republic of Newfoundland? I like it

But seriously Fidel's answer is the only decent one to this silly comparison question; I'm just fooling around...

[ 25 August 2008: Message edited by: It's Me D ]

quote:

---

I was dancing there in July, I'm not so sure I'd say Cuba's weather is always better.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by It's Me D:
When it comes to island getaways I am more of a Iceland person myself

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jrootham:
. . . the Winchester system of government . . .

---

ETA, hey, I was only a few hundred years out of date.

[ 25 August 2008: Message edited by: jrootham ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by A_J:

Westminster

---

I noticed Fidel (our Fidel, not the one in Havana) didn't address any of my points regarding how babblers might react if Harper, or Mike Harris, or Grant Devine, had created the equivalent of the CDRs in Canada. Again, suppose Harper had created "Committees for Defense Against Terrorism" whose job it was spy on neighbourhoods and report deviationist behaviour, test political candidates for loyalty to the regime, and counter political ideologies inconsistent with movement conservativism. It would be appalling, and we would be correct. Suppose Harper started shooting people who tried to leave the country without asking for permission first, it would be appalling. I could go on...

None of this, of course, makes US policy in Latin America, of which I am well aware (Dan Mitrione and the OPS, Operation Condor, Allende, Goulart, to name a few) any more defensible. The point is, if we're going to be intellectually honest with ourselves, firstly, we should be most concerned about human rights violations, over which, we have some control. Secondly, we should apply the same standards to ourselves, any those we agree with, as those we disagree with.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kloch:
We've got people in this thread still trying to convince me that Cuba is a democracy.

---

Many ruling elites act "democratically" until confronted with a threat.

Pretend some party in Canada is within sight of winning an election, which advocates immediate nationalization of all financial, resource, transportation, and agribusiness companies, banning of foreign ownership and cross-border capital flows, abandoning NATO and NORAD, and renouncing "free" trade. I wonder whether our "democracy" would be any deeper-rooted than it was when Diefenbaker refused to arm Bomarc missiles with nuclear warheads; or when the War Measures Act was used in the 1940s and in 1970 against political opponents; or when the only Communist ever elected to the House of Commons was charged with espionage and sentenced to one day longer than legally required to deprive him of his elected seat; or when Louis Riel...

quote:

---

Me, too. Have you been to Iceland? I have.

---

I went on a tour of Greenland and Iceland with my parents when I was a young child; unfortunately I haven't made it back since. My parents currently live on Baffin Island (in the town of Pangnirtung), I hope to visit them this year so that will be my arctic Island getaway

[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: It's Me D ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Many ruling elites act "democratically" until confronted with a threat.

Pretend some party in Canada is within sight of winning an election, which advocates immediate nationalization of all financial, resource, transportation, and agribusiness companies, banning of foreign ownership and cross-border capital flows, abandoning NATO and NORAD, and renouncing "free" trade. I wonder whether our "democracy" would be any deeper-rooted than it was when Diefenbaker refused to arm Bomarc missiles with nuclear warheads; or when the War Measures Act was used in the 1940s and in 1970 against political opponents; or when the only Communist ever elected to the House of Commons was charged with espionage and sentenced to one day longer than legally required to deprive him of his elected seat; or when Louis Riel...

Anyway, whether you get the picture or not, I must say your commitment to "democracy", so long as the ruling elite is in complete control and not threatened internally or externally, is heartwarming.

---

Let me see if I understand this correctly: because I said that Cuba is a human rights violator, then that means that I "support democracy as long as the ruling elite is in complete control?"

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Anyway, whether you get the picture or not, I must say your commitment to "democracy", so long as the ruling elite is in complete control and not threatened internally or externally, is heartwarming.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kloch:

By the way, isn't that essentially yours and Fidel's position on Cuba? That you support democracy in Cuba as long as the revolution, and it's elites, aren't threatened?

---

I can't speak for Fidel, but no, that's certainly not my position. I don't analyze the Cuban political system and make armchair critiques of it, no more than I do for Norway or Iran. What interests me is foreign interference and aggression - so, let me make my position clear:

If there were a foreign country publicly committed to disestablishment of the Canadian political, social and economic system; a country which maintained an embargo and lobbied and browbeat and legislated to make it effective; which financed domestic and foreign organizations committed to the same goal; and which had sponsored one armed invasion attempt and various assassination attempts...

... then I would support legislation in Canada to severely limit the rights of that foreign country to benefit from Canadian democracy.

quote:

---

which financed domestic and foreign organizations committed to the same goal; and which had sponsored one armed invasion attempt and various assassination attempts..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
let me make my position clear:

If there were a foreign country publicly committed to disestablishment of the Canadian political, social and economic system; a country which maintained an embargo and lobbied and browbeat and legislated to make it effective; which financed domestic and foreign organizations committed to the same goal; and which had sponsored one armed invasion attempt and various assassination attempts...

... then I would support legislation in Canada to severely limit the rights of that foreign country to benefit from Canadian democracy.

Hope that gives you a clearer idea of my views.

---

Not really, no. Firstly, I still don't understand how am supporting "elites" by making the critiques that I do.

Secondly, what does legislation limiting the rights of a foreign power in Canada have to do with my entire line of reasoning? I agree with your paragraph, but we're not talking about restricting US access to Cuba. We're talking about human rights abuses within Cuba.

At the risk of pulling a pin on a grenade which may be better left unpulled, let me say this: we might have a more productive discussion if you simply took one of the following positions:
(1) Cuba isn't a democracy, but that it's behaviour is justified by US aggression.
(2) Cuba is a democracy, but a "socialist" democracy where people can vote freely as long as they vote for something in keeping with socialist morality.
(3) Cuba isn't a democracy, but people are well fed so it's okay.

Most of the posters here appear to be taking one of the three positions above. I, of course, feel that any of the three positions are quite reprehensible, and would make the same argument if the dictator was Castro or Pinochet. Others, people on the Stalinist left and extreme-right disagree, justifying their positions on the grounds that political repression, up to and including extra-judicial killing, are necessary evils to faced with when purging society of corrupt and decadent elements.

quote:

---

I don't analyze the Cuban political system and make armchair critiques of it, no more than I do for Norway or Iran.

---

So, do you analyze the American political system and make critiques of it? What about healthcare systems in America vs. Europe? Do you make critiques of them also?

The whole point of being a political activist, even if you're a right-wing Miami crackpot, is to learn about political and economic systems, and to critique them based on your own ideological perspective. If you're not critiqing, then you're not an activist. For that matter, you're not a political person at all.

Lays it all out for you.