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Author Topic: Volunteers Suck
audra trower williams
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Babbler # 2

posted 02 August 2002 02:38 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Here are some more reasons volunteers suck:

1. They bring down wages. Volunteers (and their wealthier, smarmier cousins, interns) are responsible for depreciating the value of labor in markets like telemarketing, civic sanitation and light editorial work. Like I need to compete with a fresh-faced 19 year old intern for the chance to decide where the comma goes. Besides:

2. They're anti-union. What's the same about a volunteer and a scab? You can't pick on either of them. I just made that up, in case you couldn't tell. It's not that funny, but you try making up volunteer jokes. It's a frigging serious subject, especially when you consider...



Is it true?


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
markhoffchaney
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posted 02 August 2002 03:10 PM      Profile for markhoffchaney     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No it is not.

I ran into this attitude as a volunteer in a local emergency room. I did all the shit work, pre-stamping admin forms, folding towels etc.

When I complained about the attitude that I recieved from one ward clerk I got the answer from the steward,

quote:
. They bring down wages. Volunteers (and their wealthier, smarmier cousins, interns) are responsible for depreciating the value of labor,

I told him fine bring me a union card and let's pay me. I'd rather make money than come in here on my own time to gather (very, very) little experience, in a field that I hoped I would find a career.

Quit the gripeing and start organizing.

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: markhoffchaney ]


From: winnipeg | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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Babbler # 1064

posted 02 August 2002 03:59 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At the same time, profitable companies that make use of free labour in the form of "internships" -- media companies, mostly -- are just pure, cynical, scum-sucking evil.

Meanwhile, the (young, typically affluent) people who do these internships are more to be pitied than censured, which is to say that while I save most of my ire for the organizations, I haven't, in the end, much respect for the individuals so desperate to become MuchMusic VJs or whatever that they'll work for nothing.

I can see volunteering for non-profit organizations, including (for now, and I hope for good) hospitals. I can't see volunteering for profit-making ones.

Not long after I started working for my current company, someone I'd known slightly in school wrote to us offering to work for free for the summer. I was still only on contract, but when I got wind of it I strongly urged that we adopt a policy against free labour.

It would have meant "hiring" on the basis of family background (or desperation), rather than merit, and would pretty much guarantee that folks like me (a little older, without family support but with student-loan payments to make) wouldn't get hired.

In the end it came to nothing, as no-one was much interested in taking the guy on anyway, but I made my point, and to my knowledge we've accepted no "interns" since.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 02 August 2002 07:02 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Without volunteers, a lot of non-profits wouldn't exist. If they're taking jobs that ought to be payed for commercial companies, that's entirely different, but in the arts, without volunteers, you'd have a lot less on the cultural side. JMHO.
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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Babbler # 625

posted 02 August 2002 07:43 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As has been said, it depends on where the volunteers are- if they're volunteering at a profit-making/seeking company, to hell with them! If they're volunteering for an NGO, or a party, or another non-profit group (such as mi'self), then chances are pretty slim they're taking jobs from anyone, or lowering wages.

Though I have to admit,

quote:
5. They're slackers. If they're so great, how come they don't get real
jobs? Jobs where everybody isn't so grateful all the time for their
envelope-stuffing skills? Jobs they could be fired from if they suck? Just
asking.

this is true.

*sniff*


From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 02 August 2002 08:07 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm a volunteer, and I'm no slacker. I've helped raise a lot of money. I'm good at it. I like doing it. Nothing wrong with donating time and a skill set... If you don't have a skill set yet, what's wrong with volunteering to build one?

Sounds like sour grapes to me...

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 August 2002 08:42 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It *is* unfortunately true that in order to volunteer on a nearly full-time basis you have to have some monetary means of keeping alive.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 03 August 2002 04:24 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does it enable government cutbacks, because the work gets done anyway, without funding for staffing?
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 03 August 2002 05:33 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course, especially in hospitals. By design, and with malice.
(Not from the volunteers! From the budget-slashers.)
There used to be candy-stripers (high-school students, typically doing 4 hours a week) to run errands and look after the flowers, and Auxiliary ladies to run the gift shop and book-cart. Now, that's been parleyed into half the work being done by volunteers and patients' relatives, to save money on staff. As far as i know, doctors' and administrators' salaries have not been cut.

here is the cutest part: Students are told, "If you want to be employed in this field, you'd better get some experience. Try volunteering." Then, when they apply for a job, only paid work counts as experience. Maybe not everywhere, but i've heard it more than once.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 03 August 2002 05:57 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As an undergrad, most of the people I knew that wanted to go into medicine did lots, and I do mean lots, of volunteer work in hospitals, etc. Not because they wanted the experience but because they felt that this would give them a leg up in the selection process for med school. Marks simply weren't enough.

Amazing how, once letters of acceptance/rejection came out the number of volunteer hours dropped off suddenly.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 August 2002 06:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, all I know is that if school budgets are as low as they are right now when my son gets into school, and things like music and library and all other "non-essential classroom" things get cut, you better believe I'm gonna volunteer to pick up the slack. I'd love to take the high road on it and "support the teachers" by not helping with extra-curriculars and dropped programs, but when it comes to a choice between supporting the teachers and supporting my son, I'll pick my son every time.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 August 2002 06:58 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle, that's precisely the problem. Enough people will take the same tack that the wedge can continue to be driven between those who want to use volunteer work as a way to escape paying people to do the work properly, and those who know they could force the people with the purse strings to loosen them.

This conundrum must be broken, somehow.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 August 2002 10:26 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes it must be - but not at the cost of my son going without proper programming or activities. Besides, when it comes to extracurriculars, that's something that parents should do more of anyhow - that shouldn't all fall on the teachers. But for real classes like gym and library and music - well, what are you supposed to do if your school cuts them? Just say, "Okay, well, because I don't want to take jobs away from teachers, I won't try to fill in the gap"?

Parents need to agitate for more change. Parents who do volunteer to do things like lead school choirs and coach sports teams need to talk to the other parents who are not involved and tell them that they need to lean on their school boards and their MPPs to get proper funding back. They should be shamed into it, especially in areas where the majority of urban yuppies are voting for Mike Harris. This stuff isn't free, and parents who think they can get a free ride for their kids on the backs of volunteers should get a rude awakening from the people who are filling in the slack.

But I don't think it's something to get on the volunteers' cases about.

What about if your grandparents didn't have proper nursing care, so you had to step in and fill in the gap? Is that kind of volunteering also something that is bad because it wrecks home care? When my grandmother was dying in the hospital a while back, the members of my family all took turns staying in the hospital with her during her last two weeks because there just was not enough nursing staff for her comfort. One of my relatives in particular did a lot of nursing tasks for her. Is that "bad" volunteering too, because it means that hospitals will figure, oh people's relatives can take care of it?

And hey, let's carry it to another extreme. When wives do more housework than their husbands, is that "bad" volunteer work because it takes wages away from cleaning staff who might be able to do it? Or because the wives who take on most of the housework as well as working full time make "working conditions" within marriages bad for other wives?

Where do we draw the line between "good" volunteering and "bad" volunteering? Is there even a line? Is it all bad?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 August 2002 11:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ideally the people who are in a position to hire the staff and pay the people would recognize a kind of critical point where when too much necessary labor has to be done by dedicated familial volunteers, they'd wake up and go "gosh, we need to fix this instead of throwing the cost of care onto people instead of socializing it within our current funding mechanism".

And you know my solution to household work: Robots.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 03 August 2002 11:09 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I find that the biggest problem with volunteering is that one has no credibility BECAUSE they are volunteers and not paid.

One's worth is in how much money he earns.


From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
boadicea
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posted 23 August 2002 01:11 PM      Profile for boadicea        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle wrote:

-posted August 03, 2002 10:26 PM-

But I don't think it's something to get on the volunteers' cases about.

What about if your grandparents didn't have proper nursing care, so you had to step in and fill in the gap? Is that kind of volunteering also something that is bad because it wrecks home care? When my grandmother was dying in the hospital a while back, the members of my family all took turns staying in the hospital with her during her last two weeks because there just was not enough nursing staff for her comfort. One of my relatives in particular did a lot of nursing tasks for her. Is that "bad" volunteering too, because it means that hospitals will figure, oh people's relatives can take care of it?

-----------------------------------------------

I am with you, on this one, Michelle.

What you describe is one of the ugliest images to come out of the (con)servative restoration - already overextended families looking after their moribund family members, due to government cut-backs.

Volunteerism is a neocon smokescreen for the destruction of community resources and the redefinition of what community responsibility means along indivualist lines, rather than collective responsibilities.

I am intrigued by the suggestion, made by some posters, that even volunteerism has been appropriated as a class form of career opportunism.

Let's call your example what it is: caring, compassion, and love, being extended to a loved one during a very painful time. It doesn't fit any institutional definition of what a 'volunteer' is.

Let's not try to squeeze our emotional identities into a political movement's selfish and unethical world views.

b.


From: Maple, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 25 August 2002 06:49 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If the volunteer is being use to replace paid employment, where resources to pay are there, then the volunteer is being exploited. They are taking away a job. The further this is away from the non-profit sector sector the more clear this is, though non-profits are not immune either.

Doing volunteer work to provide services for a loved one, explains and justifies this. It doesn't change it.


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 25 August 2002 07:24 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle, I certainly agree with your motivations (re son and grandmother) and would no doubt do the same. However, there is a problem in terms of public services:

Health care, and dignified treatment including geriatric and palliative care, must be available to all, not just those who have grandchildren or are on good terms with them.

Although I agree that parents (and other family or community members) have an important role to play in education, children whose parents frankly don't give a shit about them have as much if not more need of such services. (Thinking of the children of some ex-neighbours whose idea of cultural activities was sitting out on the porch and swigging some kind of spirit from a clear jug that looked like a bleach bottle, as well as petty theft and drug-pushing, while their children were dirty and hungry looking...).

That said, "volunteering" also applies to forms of activism and independent cultural ventures that could never exist on the basis of paid labour as they challenge the established order.

There is also informal volunteering (feeding each others cats, helping people during ice storms, floods etc...)


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Demeter
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posted 04 September 2002 05:13 PM      Profile for Demeter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting discussions. I've been a volunteer for a local youth shelter (founding board member) and did the NDP campaign scene (municipal, provincial and federal) - canvassing, public relations, office management, general gofer (love stuffing those envelopes!)

How does Rabble's posting for editorial interns fit into all this? Since it's "alternative" is it okay not to pay (and I know they don't have money anyhow!) How do positions like this, with progressive organizations, fit in to the subject of volunteerism?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 September 2002 08:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I was rather surprised to see that intern position too. I know it's an industry thing, but I kind of wonder whether that promotes more media experience for the middle class or people with connections rather than for everyone. Let me explain what I mean. Not too many poor students who are working part time jobs to pay their tuition are going to be able to take on an intern position that pays in experience rather than money.

People talk about nepotism in the media industry - well I wonder if that happens in part because the young people with the most money and parental support for their interning endeavours are people who have parents who are already in the industry. Does anyone know whether any of the younger generation of the news industry got their start as interns for experience?

It sounds like a wonderful opportunity, but only if you've got means of supporting yourself that doesn't take up your spare time with paying work. There are many on the left who think it's okay to demonize unemployed people who take on replacement worker positions during strikes by calling them "scabs", no matter what their personal situation or desperation level was that drove them to accept replacement work. I wonder whether those same people would be willing to call volunteer work and intern work "scabbing" as well.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 06 September 2002 02:28 AM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Two questions:

1) Does the new position directly eliminate a job? Indirectly eliminate a job (reduce willingness to create coop positions etc...)?

2) Are resources available to pay for position? Are we paying higher ups a bonus for finding a way to do things on the cheap?

If not remember that right now we live in a market economy and resources are needed to provide services and non-profits (with no market related source of income) will need contributions of either time or money to operate. If you don't want volunteer jobs, send them some money to pay people.

Come the revolution this and other things will change.


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 September 2002 08:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're right, Pogo. There are things I hadn't thought of with this position. One of them is that you don't need to be a member of someone's family or "know someone" to get the position. Another is that it seems like this position will be flexible enough that people don't have to quit their employment or work full time hours. Another is that people don't have to be in j-school or to have worked in the industry to get the position. And finally, as you say, there is no job for the intern to replace.

There is still the issue of free labour, but I think since rabble is non-profit, then no one is making money off the intern's free labour, so it could go under the umbrella of activism or volunteering for a good cause rather than exploitation.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ms-demeanor
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posted 06 September 2002 04:11 PM      Profile for ms-demeanor     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is a tricky subject. As a person working in the arts, I can tell you that a lot of culture would not exist without volunteers. A lot of artist volunteer their services, including myself, at times. It is not right to do this on a consistent basis because it leads to major burn-out and poor service all around. Yes, it would be great if everyone could get paid but it just doesn't work this way sometimes and you have to judge cases individually. If someone wants to volunteer for an evening taking tickets or putting out refreshments for an art exhibit, is this exploitation? Is this taking away the meaninful job or career of someone else? Extremism in both views is detrimental in this argument. Volunteering is great in some ways. The people that volunteer are generous and mean well. And this is the spirit that volunteering should be approached in. If you are volunteering to advance your career, you only have yourself to blame for being exploited. If you want to advance your career, get a job! Shame also on the companies that promote volunteering as a way to get experience! And shame on the people that participate! Both parties in the volunteer situation should treat each other with some form of dignity. It should be made clear what the volunteer expects and will do and the same goes for the employer. If someone is doing something for me for free, I appreciate it. If I can't pay them, I find another way of recompensing them. But I don't agree that every volunteer position should be abolished for the good of the labour movement. Volunteerism isn't the problem, abuse of volunteerism is.
From: the edge and back again | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Judes
publisher
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posted 09 September 2002 11:39 AM      Profile for Judes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
People are asking good questions about rabble using an intern. These are questions that we ourselves have had. As a result we did not use interns last year. However, we did have a lot of requests from people who wanted the experience.

We are not taking away a paid job for this intern. The person will get good journalism experience and help us with our content. The hours are flexible so someone could do it and do a job at the same time. In this way we are not excluding people who need to work at a paid job as well.

Hope that answers people's questions. We will try it for a while and see how it goes. Thanks for your interest in this


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 09 September 2002 03:29 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've done alot of volunteer work - as an activist, a journalist, a board member, a union member and a parent. I've never volunteered to fill a paid position, and I refuse to fundraise for my kids' schools because of cuts to the education system (I pay my effin' taxes so that children can have a great school system, not to subsidize fat corporate bastards who have their taxes deferred year after tax year in order to show higher earnings and attract more investors). I've been forced to provide everything from tissue to basic nursing to my aging mother both in and outside the hospital. I don't like her much, as a person, and I'm really pissed that hospitals are grossly understaffed to the detriment of people's health, but I really don't want her needs to be neglected for the politics of healthcare funding.

I've worked as a staff person in volunteer-based organizations and been a volunteer who has worked with staff. Two parts hair-ripping frustration, one part rich and rewarding experience. Much like any worthwhile endeavor. I'm a big supporter of co-op programs for high school students and internships for young people, provided that the kids aren't stuck doing shit jobs the whole time, and that they actually acquire valuable experience and skills in exchange for their time. Employers who exploit co-op students and interns as an unpaid labour pool should be smacked upside the head.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 September 2002 04:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When I was in ECE, I had a great day care placement. But I heard from other girls about how they would get stuck doing all the shit jobs that no one else wanted to do - cleaning the kitchen, hosing out the diaper pails, cleaning the bathrooms, etc. - and not doing very much interaction with the children at all, which is what you're supposed to be learning how to do effectively.

I would have been extremely pissed off if that had been me.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lonewolf
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posted 10 September 2002 06:25 PM      Profile for lonewolf     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ARRRGHHH! Divide and conquer....

How have we as civilized social human beings come down to debating whether "Volunteers Suck!" ?

IMHO the problem is that government social policies have reduced our elected government's accountability and responsibility for ensuring a fair and just society, to the point that formerly government administrative programs have been axed in the great stampede towards "Duh? Tax Cuts are GUDD, Ain't They?"

This shuffles off important tasks like health care, food banks, education to the frustrated and socially conscious volunteer.

I don't object to volunteers taking paid jobs.
I object to necessary paid jobs being cut by governments in the first place!
And even more, I object to the dull sheep (Canadian electorate) that aallow it and don't notice!

Let's put the blame squarely where it belongs folks!

And do something about it!


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 13 September 2002 01:05 PM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The practice of any company or group, non-profits included no matter how noble the goal, using the free labour of interns and volunteers, should be abolished. If an organization cannot survive without exploiting their "staff" they should not continue to function. If a company or group has paid positions it is highly unethical to have interns as well.

Media companies (including this one), architecture firms, arts groups all function in this manner and it is disgraceful. By offering positions with a company (in many cases highly desired ones) without giving any tangible benefit back to those doing the work, the intern, inevitibly, loses.

Plus it obviously sets up a system by which those wealthy enough to work unpaid for 6 months can do so, those who can't miss out. there goes the experience, contacts, etc. etc.

A final note, many companies, knowingly or not, are in violation of labour standards by offering such positions, especially those involving day-to-day, profit generating labour.

And people still do it. Sheesh


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 13 September 2002 04:40 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Media companies (including this one), architecture firms, arts groups all function in this manner and it is disgraceful. By offering positions with a company (in many cases highly desired ones) without giving any tangible benefit back to those doing the work, the intern, inevitibly, loses.
Why would a particular internship be highly desirable if there were no tangible benefit? Do you believe the only tangible benefit is a paycheque? What about the tangible benefit of experience leading to a wonderful career? Or the benefit of working with like-minded people towards a shared goal? Many people who work in unfulfilling jobs do volunteer work to nourish their passions, their art, their souls. Should we label them as a bunch of exploited rubes because they don't always get paid?

I find your dogmatism inexplicably harsh and materialistic.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 13 September 2002 05:46 PM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rebecca:

I'm not just talking about cash.

The bulk of internships out there are not filled because someone is seaching for an antidote to their daily lives. Rather they are staffed by those who think think they'll get a leg up in the job market (and as someone said previous unpaid experience tends not to help), a student (many of whom are increasingly being forced to volunteer in the guise of rounding out their education. They get to provide free labour for a myraid of companies and govt. agencies)or someone else just trying to get by.

I'll suggest that most who do volunteer for various prositions would not do so if they were not pressured to due to various circumstances or requirements, such as being able to graduate!! If thats harsh so be it.

Sure some internships or volunteer positions are great, provided you can afford to do it. Most can't, or are forced into doing so to accomplish some vague criteria such as community service or assistance. Abolish it to protect those people. The rest they can pay.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy Shanks ]

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy Shanks ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 13 September 2002 06:18 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tommy, your comments in your first post were pretty broad, taking in more volunteerism than internships such as the one offered here at rabble. I'd like to address that.

quote:
The practice of any company or group, non-profits included no matter how noble the goal, using the free labour of interns and volunteers, should be abolished. If an organization cannot survive without exploiting their "staff" they should not continue to function. If a company or group has paid positions it is highly unethical to have interns as well.

Media companies (including this one), architecture firms, arts groups all function in this manner and it is disgraceful.


Now, I'm going to make a little leap here and assume that when you say "arts groups" and "non-profits", you are also including arts co-ops and artist-run centres which have staff positions but rely on volunteerism by their members in order to run.

I belong to a film co-op that runs on this model. As a non-profit, we do not exist to generate income. There is no way we could raise the money to pay the manpower to run our programs. Our members do much of the work. We all get something out of it. We program our screenings, and different members get a chance to pick what they want, not what the staff might choose, for example. And then there's the equipment access. Most of us have more time than money, and putting in some time in exchange for the means to make your film is more than equitable. I'd say it's a godsend.

Now, if you have a clever way for us to raise enough money to run workshops, screenings and all the mailouts, lobbying and grant writing - oh, yeah, and fundraising - please do let us know. But in the meantime, shut your silly gob.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
singh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3081

posted 13 September 2002 06:22 PM      Profile for singh        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it's fine for Rabble to seek unpaid labour in the form of interns -- win-win situation for all parties concerned. But you can't get on a high horse if other media outlets do the same -- it's a matter of principle and consistency.
From: victoria | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
David Kyle
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1530

posted 14 September 2002 10:57 AM      Profile for David Kyle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
2. They're anti-union. What's the same about a volunteer and a scab? You can't pick on either of them. I just made that up, in case you couldn't tell. It's not that funny, but you try making up volunteer jokes. It's a frigging serious subject, especially when you consider...

The Calgary School Board lunch program was run by volunteers until the local union took the issue to the courts. They forced out the volunteers and replaced them with paid workers. The school board was forced to raise school fees.

The lunch program had been run by volunteers for decades.

In this case, the union considered volunteers a threat.


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged

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