>>>>>>>>>>>>>
quote: Can you have a democracy within which the great majority of the citizenship is not represented by their peers?

No.

quote: Can democracy exist in a society where the mass media is concentrated in the hands of a very few whether under corporate or state control?

In general I'd say no. There are circumstances however, when both corrupt conglomerates and dictatoral governments can be influenced by the people. of course, it depends on wich dictators and corporations your dealing with, and the size of movements which are challenging them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Does anyone disagree? Does anyone think there can be a democracy without representation by peers? Can there be a democracy where mass communication is concentrated into the hands of a few whether state or private?

And now another question just to add to the mess. Can there be a democracy without institutional representation of the governed? That would be public, private, social, and cultural institutions.

For example, how many construction labourers sit on the Toronto Police Services Board? How many minimum wage commuters sit on the transit baord? How many single moms sit in parliament? How many LCBO counter employees sit on local health or hospital boards? How many call center employees hold ranking positions at their local Anglican church? How many auto-mechanics sit on local library boards? How many retired seniors sits on the board of any giant pharmaceuticals corporation? And on and on and on ...

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

For example, how many construction labourers sit on the Toronto Police Services Board? How many minimum wage commuters sit on the transit baord? How many single moms sit in parliament? How many LCBO counter employees sit on local health or hospital boards? How many call center employees hold ranking positions at their local Anglican church? How many auto-mechanics sit on local library boards? How many retired seniors sits on the board of any giant pharmaceuticals corporation?

---

1. None but there is a Jamaican born person.
2. At least one.
3. No idea but it wouldn't surprise me to find some.
4. Same as three.
5. Oops. Two was from the former boards. Not the current one.
6. Probably dozens.

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

quote:

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How many single moms sit in parliament?

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quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
I don't get this complaint. I can't set up a restaurant myself, here in Canada, without all sorts of regulatory hoops to jump. Why should Cuba be any different? It's socialism, not heaven.

The best single thing to happen to improve Cuban society would be if the U.S. blockade/embargo was lifted and the subversion came to an end. But, yet, I've read not a single word from all those on this thread who drone endlessly on about "freedom" about the blockade. Yawn.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
Let's say the U.S. embargo ended today. How much impact would that have on Cuba? Can't Cuba deal with countless other countries already?
Then, once the embargo is ended, would Cubans be free to set up their own businesses (restaurants, etc.)?

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Or, should Cubans just eat the gruel that government offers them and be satisfied with that?

quote:

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and why in gods name am I wandering into the middle of this neverending story I'll never know. Fidel will justify the CBC and the Angolan troop deployment...

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quote:

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1. None but there is a Jamaican born person.
2. At least one.
3. No idea but it wouldn't surprise me to find some.
4. Same as three.
5. Oops. Two was from the former boards. Not the current one.
6. Probably dozens.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
From the thread just closed:

---

But that's what American dissident and living abroad for whatever reasons, Philip Agee, was talking about wrt the Cason affair in Havana. Their goals weren't as grand as "regime change" in Cuba, they were merely trying to provoke a response, a crackdown in Havana in screwing with the Cubans long-time efforts to create friendlier ties and trade with the EU.

Are U.S. companies only situated in the U.S. that you know of, Sven?. Do the Pentagon's capitalists only have business interests in Alberta and Baghdad by what you can tell?. Which country is Haiti's largest trade partner, Sven ?. Mexico, Canada, El Salvador and Puerto Rico ?.

quote:

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In a truly classless communist state, there is no economic choice. You can’t open a restaurant, a bookstore, an art shop, etc. You take what you are given, as decided by party elite.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

So we have token representation in some cases.

So can we agree that generally the populace at large, the average Canadian as it were, earning in the range of $25k per year and with some post-secondary education, mostly college and/or some university credits, are not well represented in parliament or within institutions, private or public?

---

I think it's just the salary band more than anything. Education doesn't come close to life experience when it comes to electing officials.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Sven, the Pentagon capitalists don't want to open a book store in Havana. They want to use Cuba and Haiti as conduits for Colombian cocaine and marijuana to your country like old times.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

My point is that even if the US completely disengaged from Cuba, the “ideal” Cuban government of a truly classless Communist society would prohibit economic freedom.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

My point is that even if the US completely disengaged from Cuba, the “ideal” Cuban government of a truly classless Communist society would prohibit economic freedom.

---

So you're of the popular American opinion that communist repression and not dated cold war embargos is the reason that trade in and out of Korea and Cuba have been strangled off for several decades ?. How prosperous would the U.S. be if two-thirds of the world, or essentially the multinational/transnational corporate cabal during the cold war era, were to wage economic warfare with trade sanctions being a key strategy against the USSA?.

What if Canada was a socialist or otherwise nation and decided through multilateral talks to lead trade sanctions to punish a criminal regime in Washington ?. I'm guessing president Dubya and the Republican cabal would lose popularity in the U.S. pretty fast. We might sit back and talk about the poverty of capitalist mindset.

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
My point is that even if the US completely disengaged from Cuba, the “ideal” Cuban government of a truly classless Communist society would prohibit economic freedom.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
BULLSHIT look into your crystal ball again I think its not calibrated properly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
So you're of the popular American opinion that communist repression and not dated cold war embargos is the reason that trade in and out of Korea and Cuba have been strangled off for several decades ?. How prosperous would the U.S. be if two-thirds of the world, or essentially the multinational/transnational corporate cabal during the cold war era, were to wage economic warfare with trade sanctions being a key strategy against the USSA?.

What if Canada was a socialist or otherwise nation and decided through multilateral talks to lead trade sanctions to punish a criminal regime in Washington ?. I'm guessing president Dubya and the Republican cabal would lose popularity in the U.S. pretty fast.

---

Rather than blaming every force other than dictatorial Communism for Cuba’s retched existence, how about if you entertain a very simple hypothetical?

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
Assume that Cuba obtains absolute control over its territory (no meddling of any kind by the USA). In the perfect post-USA Cuban world of classless Communist society, would economic freedom of individuals flourish or not?

---

How can you ask me this when tens of millions of American citizens can't afford to see a doctor on a regular basis, and another 30 million Americans are food insecure ?.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
And yes, absolutely. Increased Cuban trade and willful violations of Helms-Burton law by U.S. companies has resulted in more economic freedom for Cubans in recent years. Still, the dated and mean-spirited cold war rhetoric in the U.S. needs to disappear into that gentle goodnight along with the cold warriors themselves.

---

Okay, lemme try again.

Once the “dated and mean-spirited cold war rhetoric in the U.S. [disappears] into that gentle goodnight along with the cold warriors themselves” and Cubans live in an ideal and classless Communist system, will Cubans have individual economic freedom to open and run restaurants and other stores; farms; and other businesses or will all decisions be made by the government?

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

Okay, lemme try again.

---

Oh there will be plenty of government hand intervention in the planned economy for sure, Sven. Americans should be used to government intervention in all things by now.

If there was no government intervention in anything, then why bother with elections to vote in democratically-elected governments here ? We could just allow non-elected big business interests to run the country like CCCE here and Washington lobbyists and Wall Street down there.
We could have phony elections where two autocratic old line parties repesenting mainly non-elected big money interests and swapping power back and forth for more than a century in a row.

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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I think it's just the salary band more than anything. Education doesn't come close to life experience when it comes to electing officials.

When you're making $25k per year, you are usually at the start of your career and don't have the experience necessary. If you are running for office, it's usually for a fringe party with no chance of winning in the riding.

---

And in any case, you evaded the question. The average Canadian earns in the range of $25k and has some post-secondary education, mostly college, and some university credits. Hell, let's raise it to a college diploma or a BA. Is the average Canadian, whether a truck driver, a house painter, a receptionist, an admin assistant, a computer tech support geek, a nurse, the crossing guard, assembly line worker, a janitor, or a construction labourer, well represented by peers in the public and private institutions, including parliament, in Canada?

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Oh there will be plenty of government hand intervention in the planned economy for sure, Sven. Americans should be used to government intervention in all things by now.

If there was no government intervention in anything, then why bother with elections to vote in democratically-elected governments here ?

---

The choice is not binary. It is not a choice of the iron hand of government control over all economic decisions versus no government control at all.

No. The question is: What would the degree of government control be over economic decisions in an idealized Cuba? If Cuba will be a truly classless Communist society, then that government control will be near absolute. Hence, no (or extremely little) individual economic freedom.

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]

quote:

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The average person? No.

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Okay, let's see were we are. Democracy does not require the party system to function; public and private institutions in Canada, including government, are not representative of the broad public; and it is agreed that, in general, democracy cannot exist in a society where the mass media is concentrated in the hands of a very few whether under corporate or state control.

Stockholm: "allowing people to open small businesses such as corner stores and snack bars.."

RosaL: "Freedom for business. From my point of view that's not freedom. It means that I can only live on condition that I work for someone - for their profit and to further their projects."

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
So, I guess my last question is, why don't we concentrate on getting democracy in Canada before we give a flying fig about Cuba?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

The choice is not binary. It is not a choice of the iron hand of government control over all economic decisions versus no government control at all.

---

So what makes you think small enterprise would not be allowed in Cuba as it is today to varying degrees?. There are dozens of Canadians and foreign companies doing business in Cuba today.

Perhaps you should sneak down to Mexico avoiding the Homeland Stupidity feds along the way - catch a ride to Cuba and see the way it is for yourself instead of relying on right-wing radio broadcast around your ears 24-7 to tell you what you believe is true about Cuba.

quote:

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No. The question is: What would the degree of government control be over economic decisions in an idealized Cuba? If Cuba will be a truly classless Communist society, then that government control will be near absolute. Hence, no (or extremely little) individual economic freedom.
[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]

---

You've got tens of millions in the States who are free to be poor in any corner of the country, Sven. More than 30 million Americans are categorized as food insecure right there in the land of the free.

And you've got more poor people warehoused in state-funded and public-private gulag system than any other country in the world, not including the very symbol of oppression on the island of Cuba at Guantanamo Bay. They call it freedom when themselves are free to crook and rob and defraud the taxpaying public.

quote:

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Yes. Let the Cubans eat cake.

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If we are to fight for any people other than our own, it should be for the poor, poor Americans and their much vaunted but so easily shredded constitution.

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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So, I guess my last question is, why don't we concentrate on getting democracy in Canada before we give a flying fig about Cuba?

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[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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We already have it to an extent. Yes, working people have to use bourgois lawyers as mouthpeices, and most of our news sources spew right wing shit, but our civil rights seem to be intact. If we were living in a completely undemocratic society, Rabble wouldn't be allowed to exist, and the people who currently run it would be in prison. What we have is a quasi democracy.

---

Because of the rise of capitalist marketing married to the corporate press, we have a much more sophisticated system than the Chinese or the Cubans.

Our elite know that our ramblings on babble or in student newspaper or workers journals are harmless and keep us from the barricades. In China, for example, peasants regularly riot over environmental degradation. In Canada we have peaceful stand-offs where everyone is polite, the law speaks for the property owners, the protesters are arrested and take their lumps, the destruction goes ahead and we begin anew at a different site. It is all so pleasant and civilized.

And that is for the decided few who are activists. The great majority are comfortably numb, cocooning in their abodes to laugh tracks and crises that can always be solved within an hour.

If the Cubans and Chinese had any sense, and apparently the Chinese are learning, they would begin bombarding their publics with marketing that promotes fear of odors you never knew you had, encourages people to be the first on their block to own some trivial item, and reduces news to info-tainment dominated by the trivial, the peripheral, and what the cool people are wearing.

Soon Chinese and Cubans will be just as comfortable, and numb, except for the malcontents who will find solace with on-line griping, student newspapers and worker's weeklies.

It is a tried and true formula.

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
You're one to talk. You're USian aren't you? In Cuba, they would appear to have democracy if not respect for human rights. In Canada we would appear to have respect for human rights if not a democracy. In the US, you have neither. You have the rise of a fascistic police state where democratic processes have been corrupted and human rights have been tossed into the dustbin.

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North Korea is a facsist police state. Essentially ditto for Iran. To equate the US with North Korea and Iran is silly hyperbole, but often par for the course here on babble.

To say Canada is not a democracy is similarly silly hyberbole. Hell, if Canada isn't a democracy, democracy doesn't exist anywhere.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
If we are to fight for any people other than our own, it should be for the poor, poor Americans and their much vaunted but so easily shredded constitution.

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quote:

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North Korea is a facsist police state. Essentially ditto for Iran. To equate the US with North Korea and Iran is silly hyperbole

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

So then why did you just do it?

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Huh?

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
I didn't mention those two countries. You did. So obviously you are the one equating the US with North Korea and Iran.

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Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You referred to the US as a polic state. North Korea is a police state. Therefore, you implied that the US is in the same category as North Korea.

That implication is silly hyperbole.

quote:

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You referred to the US as a polic state. North Korea is a police state. Therefore, you implied that the US is in the same category as North Korea.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
North Korea is a facsist police state. Essentially ditto for Iran. To equate the US with North Korea and Iran is silly hyperbole, but often par for the course here on babble.

---

And the Yanks did there share of installing brutal right-wing dictatorships in South Korea and Iran during cold war. You can ignore your shadow government's meddling in other other countries' political affairs, but it's not being honest with yourself, imo. The hawks didn't trust a lot of countries with democracy over the years and "intervened" accordingly.

quote:

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To say Canada is not a democracy is similarly silly hyberbole. Hell, if Canada isn't a democracy, democracy doesn't exist anywhere.

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Don't you think it strange that our watered-down two old line parties somewhat resemble the two-dog race in the States come election time ?. We're a northern colony not in control of our natural resource wealth and dependent on sending massive, simply massive amounts of greenhouse gas producing fossil fuels, hydroelectric power and raw materials to the U.S. on the cheap and without so much as a green tax. We've had successive colonial administratorships in Ottawa and Alberta and wherever the oil and gas and power is to be found in abundance.

quote:

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Huh. Interesting viewpoint. But, I would think it would be for the 2+ billion people in the world who live on $2 or less per day.

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Of course, Cuba does not release official figures regarding the number of prisoners in its prisons.

And if I understand this argument correctly, what some are saying here, particularly Fidel, is that because of the US, and repression in Cuba is justified.

By that logic Fidel, you should be George and Dick's biggest cheerleader. They argue the US is under attack and thus the Patriot Act and the Wars in various other countries are necessary.

I also find it interesting that for a group of people who attack almost everything governments of all stripes say there is this drinking the kool-aid mentality here. 100% literacy. Are you kidding me? Who tested this? Better infant mortality rates? Based on what numbers? Are they self reported numbers by Cuban hospitals. Or are these numbers like Soviet factories used to report. Yes, Comrade, we produced 1000 widgets as required. Oh, we had to produce 2000, well then we produced 2000.

quote:

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If you compare the numbers, Cuba, on a per capita basis, imprisons more of its people than the US does.

Of course, Cuba does not release official figures regarding the number of prisoners in its prisons.

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PrisonPolicy.org

From Hospital to Prison?

quote:

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The United States holds the dubious distinction of having the largest incarcerated population in the world
with 2 million people(2.25M in 2007) behind bars as of year-end 1999.2 With only 5% of the world's population, the U.S. holds a quarter of the world's prisoners.3 In the 1990s alone, more persons were added to prisons and jails than in any other decade on record.

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Those 6 million plus incarcerated Americans, on probation or on parole, cannot vote, and for the most part are not included in U.S. unemployment statistics. Voting is considered a basic human right in over 80 nations including Cuba.

Mario Marquez, IQ of 65, Executed in Texas in 1995

In solitary confinement for 30 years!

Recession proofing and greening the economy Republican style as cold war prosperity disappears in rural America

"If you harbour terrorists, you are a terrorist"

[ 13 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):
While I do not enjoy the thought of getting involved in a(nother) debate about Cuba, capitalism, communism, and so on, I could not help responding to the following, from the original thread:

Stockholm: "allowing people to open small businesses such as corner stores and snack bars.."

RosaL: "Freedom for business. From my point of view that's not freedom. It means that I can only live on condition that I work for someone - for their profit and to further their projects."

It also means that you can open your own business and work for yourself, for your profit and to further your projects. It does not mean that you can only live "on condition that [you] work for someone else."

---

Hey, thanks for responding! I've been writing a HUGE exam, or I'd have seen this sooner.

Well, it means that some people can open their own businesses. The rest will only be able to live on condition that they work for someone else. That's kind of the essence of capitalism, I think.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Americans are insisting they have it marginally better than little communist Cuba ...

Can you guys think of any other ways Americans might be slightly better off than Cubans? What about child mortality and literacy? I bet you're way better off in those areas. Any stats?

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I heard an idiot on one of the American news networks. She worked for a New York newspaper and had been on a trip to Cuba and she said, "They live in the past. They know nothing about popular culture. They'd never even heard of Paris Hilton!"

quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:
The rest seem to think small businesses with a few employees are ok and even positive. So I just decided to shut up

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChicagoLoopDweller:
100% literacy. Are you kidding me? Who tested this? Better infant mortality rates? Based on what numbers? Are they self reported numbers by Cuban hospitals.

---

UNICEF-Cuba

According to wiki,
Cuba's IM rate: 6.04/1000 live births
USA's IM:rate: 6.37/1000 live births

Cuban U5IMR is actually now 5/1000, better than the U.S. and on par with the UK.

World Class Biomedical Research Yale

Cuban Education: A Role Model for the U.S.? Harvard

Cienfuego, Cambridge/MA sister cities

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
According to wiki,

Cuba's IM rate: 6.04/1000 live births
USA's IM:rate: 6.37/1000 live births

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quote:

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The World Health Organization (WHO) defines a live birth as any born human being who demonstrates independent signs of life, including breathing, voluntary muscle movement, or heartbeat.

. . .

The exclusion of any high-risk infants from the denominator or numerator in reported IMRs can be problematic for comparisons. The United States counts many infant births as live which other countries do not and therefore usually appears to have a much higher rate of infant mortality than similar countries. The US counts an infant exhibiting any sign of life as alive, no matter the month of gestation or the size, but other countries differ in these practices. For example, in Germany and Austria, fetal weight must reach one pound to be counted as a live birth, while in some other countries, including Switzerland, the baby must be at least 12 inches long. Both Belgium and France report babies as born lifeless if they are less than 26 weeks' gestation.

Another well-documented example also illustrates this problem. Historically, until the 1990s Russia and the Soviet Union did not count as a live birth or as an infant death extremely premature infants (less than 1,000 g, less than 28 weeks gestational age, or less than 35 cm in length) that were born alive (breathed, had a heartbeat, or exhibited voluntary muscle movement) but failed to survive for at least 7 days. Although such extremely premature infants typically accounted for only about 0.005 of all live-born children, their exclusion from both the numerator and the denominator in the reported IMR led to an estimated 22%-25% lower reported IMR. In some cases, too, perhaps because hospitals or regional health departments were held accountable for lowering the IMR in their catchment area, infant deaths that occurred in the 12th month were "transferred" statistically to the 13th month (i.e., the second year of life), and thus no longer classified as an infant death.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):

Well, I know people who run small businesses with no employees other than the owners. Is that OK by your lights? One guy I met has a little gardening business: he'll mow your lawn, trim your hedges, plant your garden, etc. He does OK. I have a couple of friends who, together, run a little catering business. They are co-owners and the only employees. Even in our capitalist society, you can avoid working for someone else by opening a small business like that. I'm not saying that everyone can do it, but you, RosaL, probably could if you wanted to.

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A better question might be, why is the incidence for very low and extremely low birth weight babies as high as it is in the U.S.?.

quote:

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40 countries, including Cuba, Taiwan and most of Europe had lower infant mortality rates than the U.S. in 2004. The U.S. rate was 6.8 deaths for every 1,000 live births. It was 13.7 for Black Americans, the same as Saudi Arabia.

``It really reflects the social conditions in which African American women grow up and have children,'' said Dr. Marie C. McCormick, professor of maternal and child health at the Harvard School of Public Health. ``We haven't done anything to eliminate those disparities.

---

[ 14 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
You just can't get a decent schnitzel in Cuba. Need I say more?

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[ 14 September 2007: Message edited by: torontoprofessor ]

quote:

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Originally posted by torontoprofessor:
post deleted.... better to read and learn than talk where I'm ignorant...

[ 14 September 2007: Message edited by: torontoprofessor ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:
Yes, if the workers own the business that is fine with me. That's what I'm after.

---

OK ... I want to probe a bit further.

These friends of mine who have their own little catering business, they once had a big job. They asked me to do a favour, and help them out for a few hours. I did the standard catering stuff, carrying Hors d'oeuvres around and so on. I made pretty good money for five hours of work, including what my friends paid me ($12 per hour) and tips.

quote:

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):

OK ... I want to probe a bit further.

These friends of mine who have their own little catering business, they once had a big job. They asked me to do a favour, and help them out for a few hours. I did the standard catering stuff, carrying Hors d'oeuvres around and so on. I made pretty good money for five hours of work, including what my friends paid me ($12 per hour) and tips.

Was I being exploited? Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "exploitation". But I do not think that I was harmed by my friends. The way I see it, I made a mutually beneficial agreement with my friends fo an evening. It was even kind of fun, and I would happily do it again if they asked me to.

---

You say it was a "favour" for friends and I suspect that answers the question. No doubt you could come up with all kinds of "boundary situations" but I don't know what the point of that would be.

ETA: So it's not that they don't have employees but that they employ them on an occasional basis? That makes a huge difference, as far as I'm concerned.

[ 14 September 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 14 September 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 14 September 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:
You say it was a "favour" for friends and I suspect that answers the question. No doubt you could come up with all kinds of "boundary situations" but I don't know what the point of that would be.

ETA: So it's not that they don't have employees but that they employ them on an occasional basis? That makes a huge difference, as far as I'm concerned.

---

Well, for one thing, I deliberately did not say whether I was acting as (1) a temporary employee, or (2) an independent self-employed food service contractor, with the caterers as my clients, subcontracting some of their food service work to me.

quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:
You say it was a "favour" for friends and I suspect that answers the question. No doubt you could come up with all kinds of "boundary situations" but I don't know what the point of that would be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):

The point of "boundary situations" is to call into question the view that, whenever X pays Y help X carry out X's business, then X is harming Y by exploiting Y.

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Well, you've attributed to me a universal quantification over a question-begging statement and then you cite an exception! In your case it was a matter of doing a favour for some friends. That really isn't relevant to what we're debating.

[ 15 September 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):

Well, for one thing, I deliberately did not say whether I was acting as (1) a temporary employee, or (2) an independent self-employed food service contractor, with the caterers as my clients, subcontracting some of their food service work to me.

Though the difference between (1) and (2) is relevant to how I fill my tax form, would it make a difference to your theoretical point?

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I suggest you ask the huge ex-pat American community in Cuba. You know, the one that was built by Americans who risked their lives on rafts and makeshift floatation devices to make it to the shores of Cuba where they could be safe from the hideous oppression they experienced in America.

It is curious isn't it, how no matter what you give people - equality, egalitarianism, collective pride - many would give it all up for personal autonomy and the freedom to succeed or fail on their own steam.

[ 16 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Catchall:
I suggest you ask the huge ex-pat American community in Cuba.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Sure thing. We could ask the 30 million food insecure Americans if they can afford a Greyhound bus ticket to the next state or even county. We could ask the more than one million homeless American children, or anyone in the largest incarcerated population in the world if they'd like to leave the continent and go live in any of the third world capitalist hellholes off Uncle Sam's back doorsteps. Hell, we've got some Canadians who probably can't afford to travel to the next province let alone another country.

---

But, can you name a single instance of where one of those "millions" of people risked his or her life to flee to Cuba?

No?

I actually have this same discussion regularly with a friend of mine who loves Cuba and praises their egalitarian political system. Of course he doesn't love it enough to move there.

[ 16 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]

Why Cubans "flee" the island.

[ 16 September 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

But, can you name a single instance of where one of those "millions" of people risked his or her life to flee to Cuba?

No?

I didn't think so.

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People don't realize that the number of Cubans wanting to leave the island is fewer overall today than when U.S.-backed dictator, Fulgencio Batista and the mafia ruled Cuba. Life on any island is unique to that of a large continent. It's human nature to want to explore the world. This phenomenon is true of most island nations in the Caribbean.

And there are thousands of Cubans coming and going from Havana to do important relief work in dozens of third world capitalist nations where grinding poverty and disease make life hellish for millions of people. Cuba has tens of thousands of aid workers and doctors in shithole third world nations still awaiting the elusive capitalist economic longrun.

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Originally posted by Catchall:

I actually have this same discussion regularly with a friend of mine who loves Cuba and praises their egalitarian political system. Of course he doesn't love it enough to move there.

[ 16 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Life on any island is unique to that of a large continent. It's human nature to want to explore the world. This phenomenon is true of most island nations in the Caribbean.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Successive U.S. governments...tend to want to deny these same personal freedoms from American citizens to think and do as they please without being force fed a dated and obsolete cold war ideology.

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Originally posted by Sven:

Cubans escape on boats and rafts, risking their lives to do so, to "explore the world"?!?!? That is one of the better euphemisms I've seen in a long, long, time, Fidel!!!

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And many Cubans travel to struggling third world capitalist shitholes within driving distance of Texas down the PanAm Highway to do humanitarian work, too.

There exists an obstacle to travel abroad for tens of millions of American(besides fines and Homeland Stupidity feds shadowing their every move) and Canadian citizens to travelling abroad. And that's money. I know there are Canadians who've never been out of province in their lives. And there are American citizens subsisting in the Ozarks, the Kentucky hills, the inner city ghettos, former New Orleans residents etc who can't afford to go anywhere but where they are.

Go see the world!! Explore new and exotic lands!!

The first thing you will want to do...very quietly (cuz otherwise you'll get tossed in the Big House)...is find a handful of trusted confidantes who you can work with to scavenge for parts and components suitable for building a make-shift raft. Once you have completed your raft...and be mindful of the tidal schedule!!!...you're ready to start your BIG ADVENTURE!!!

Disclaimer: This travel agency disclaims all liability for any drownings that may ocurr on the initial aquatic leg of your adventure. All travelers engage in this venture AT THEIR OWN RISK!!!

So we don't actually know how many Americans may want to travel to and possibly decide to live in Cuba, because successive shadow governments have decided these kinds of things for tens of millions of Americans with or without the means to travel to Cuba, or Haiti, or even El Salvador, another U.S.-friendly capitalist nation that the average American knows very little about.

There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians vacationing in Cuba every year, and some actually work and live in Cuba. That's right, because they chose of their free will to do as they please. And, there are thousands of Hatians who've swam and paddled to Cuba. And some Haitians made brave decisions to float to Miami where they've been turned away or returned to their living hell by the U.S. coast guard. Canada has had thousands of Newfoundlanders, PEI'ers and even Philippine Islanders come to live in Canada and dozens of other first world nations at the same time.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I wish your...

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Yes, yes, Fidel. I know. There really isn't anything that can be criticized about Cuba, can there?

And before anyone comes back with a tirade about the evils of America, let me say that this isn't a competition. It is possible to hate both American and Cuban governments for diffrent reasons. Honest. It's OK. Just because you hate America, you are not automatically required to defend all its enemies.

[ 16 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]

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It is curious isn't it, how no matter what you give people - equality, egalitarianism, collective pride - many would give it all up for personal autonomy and the freedom to succeed or fail on their own steam.

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But in fact, as has been demonstrated, the US tolerates a very narrow band of debate. People in America are expected to conform. It is all right to be different as long as you do it like everyone else. And then in the wake of 9/11, we saw Americans only too willing to surrender their much vaunted individual rights and guarantees, and their constitution, for the vague concept of security.

The average American is more likely to die from violence in his or her own home as a result of the actions of a family member than from any foreign extremist. And yet Americans can now be jailed for a good portion of their lives for what they think if they make the mistake of thinking out loud.

They have surrendered privacy, the freedom from government intrusion of their own homes, and the right to be arrested and held without charge.

And so easily!

Americans gave up personal autonomy and freedom without even a struggle.

Your last comment is pure nonsense that could have been written by any cold war propagandist.

I read recently about an American citizen, with a grade six education, put in prison for 24 years for conversations he had in his living room. It seems he is a slave to Bush and exists at his convenience.

In fact, with the changes to the patriot act, Bush can have an American declared an "enemy combatant" and have them disappeared. Not even Castro's Cuba is so severe and extreme.

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Originally posted by Sven:

Yes, yes, Fidel. I know. There really isn't anything that can be criticized about Cuba, can there?

If God Herself could create perfection, it would no doubt be Cuba.

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We've never-ever made claims close to that about Cuba. You're trying to suggest that Cubans and Cuba solidarity groups run around attacking U.S. imperialism. And that would be a tremendous lie. The U.S. shadow government and propagandists operate on a principle that says the best defence is a good offence.

Sven, it's not Cuba that maintains an illegal military base for torture at Gitmo, Abu Graihb, Eastern Europe, or CIA planes for torture "on the fly."

Cuba doesn't own the world's largest gulag population. That's America today.

Cuba doesn't imprison blacks at six times the rate of the most openly racist nation of the
last century, South Africa. Because that's America today.

Cuba has nothing to do with the world's foremost school for training in torture and terrorism, the SOA. It wasn't 42 Cubans who voted to maintain that school for export of torture and terror in Congress recently. Those were "Liberal" Democrats voting with the Republican cabal to maintain cold war spending on the SOA as well as the ridiculous amounts of money on maintaining over 730 military
bases and a naval roving nuclear missile threat on every ocean. There is no legitimate use for nuclear missiles, Sven.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Americans gave up personal autonomy and freedom without even a struggle.

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We "gave up" our personal autonomy and freedom? That's amazing. I didn't realize that I can no longer travel wherever I want, read and write whatever I want, worship as I see fit (I just don't see that it's fit to worship anything), quit my job and do something else whenever I want, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Just like the folks in the paradise known as Cuba.

Uh-huh.

So, I'll just repeat what you said:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Get over your propaganda.

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Before, they made these same claims about the all-powerful USSR and the lovely countries of the East Bloc.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Cuba doesn't...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Cuba doesn't...

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Cuba has nothing to do with...

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That’s how you started three paragraphs in your post above.

You sound like one of those over-protective parents whose little Johnny or little Jane can do no wrong.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
You have to be willing to lie a lot; otherwise, revolutionary romanticism becomes untenable.

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And, if such a soul doesn’t lie, then that person must necessarily suffer from debilitating (crushing, really) delusions.

“Oh, Cuba’s not perfect but...”

The “but” then (inevitably) wheels the conversation towards an in-depth examination of a litany of evils perpetuated, of course, by the USA, which are the cause of all problems Cuba may have...and thus conveniently re-directing any discussion about any imperfections Cuba may have (which, of course, it has none).

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Originally posted by Catchall:
I cannot even imagine living in a country where my profession is chosen for me and I live under constant threat of imprisonment for merely speaking negatively about my glorious leader.

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OK, so America is bad. That makes Cuba good? Or maybe less bad? What is your point?

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We "gave up" our personal autonomy and freedom? That's amazing. I didn't realize that I can no longer travel wherever I want, read and write whatever I want, worship as I see fit (I just don't see that it's fit to worship anything), quit my job and do something else whenever I want, etc., etc., etc., etc.

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Tell him Jeff House. Can US prosecutors use against him in a trial his ownership of political books like, say, a biography of Osama bin Laden or a travel brochure to Sunny Al-Qaeda Training Camp and Resort?

Worship is the one thing every American can do. So long as your faith doesn't conflict with your being an American first.

Yes, you can quit your job and you are free to starve or die from an untreated illness. Hurray for America.

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The claim is made that Cuba is perfect (or at least, beyond all criticism) because it is almost the only Communist country left.

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I didn't notice this claim.

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The “but” then (inevitably) wheels the conversation towards an in-depth examination of a litany of evils perpetuated, of course, by the USA, which are the cause of all problems Cuba may have...and thus conveniently re-directing any discussion about any imperfections Cuba may have (which, of course, it has none).

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There are people in the USA who suffer under miserable conditions. The USA remains mired in the legacy of slavery and racism. The USA still has never compensated slaves nor first nations. In what way ought the world community deal with the terrible injustices the USA has inflicted and still inflicts upon some Americans?

Why is the injustices that occur in the USA on a daily basis of less urgent than those in Cuba? Why aren't the sins of the USA as important as that of Cuba's?

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

The “but” then (inevitably) wheels the conversation towards an in-depth examination of a litany of evils perpetuated, of course, by the USA, which are the cause of all problems Cuba may have...

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Not just Cuba. All those Central American as well as those Caribbean island nations not worthy of mainstream news media mention. Ever been to U.S. friendly Guatemala or Haiti, Sven?. If you ever do visit those countries where brutal U.S.-backed right-wing dictatorships have shaped life and economies over the years, you might want to jot down some descriptions of what's lacking in those countries, too. Ah ?.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Not just Cuba. All those Central American as well as those Caribbean island nations not worthy of mainstream news media mention. Ever been to U.S. friendly Guatemala or Haiti, Sven?. If you ever do visit those countries where brutal U.S.-backed right-wing dictatorships have shaped life and economies over the years, you might want to jot down some descriptions of what's lacking in those countries, too. Ah ?.

You see, Sven, there exists a dearth of good examples for "multi-party" U.S.-managed democracies in Latin America for Cubans to use as a template. Like our Stephen Gordon might say, show Cubans a Latin American model for free market capitalism that actually works for not just a small minority of rich people but everybody?. Where's the beef, the tenderloin, the 100 percent real thing ?. When the U.S. shadow government and cosmetic government produce the goods in Monroe Doctrine terrortory, I'm sure people just like you will let us know.

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[THREAD DRIFT]

Fidel, I'm curious about something: Why do you (nearly) always ask questions followed by a question mark and a period ("?.").

Just curious, as it's an odd quirk.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
[QB]Fidel, I'm curious about something: Why do you (nearly) always ask questions followed by a question mark and a period ("?.")QB]

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There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians vacationing in Cuba every year, and some actually work and live in Cuba.

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so now you are trying to convince us that the hundreds of of thousands of Canadian tourists who visit Cuba every year on package all-inclusive tours (largely to get drunk, get laid and get a suntan in that order) all choose Cuba to express solidarity with the Cuban revolution????

How do conservatives such as yourself show solidarity with each other?

[ 16 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Look, FM. I realize you hate the USA and all it stands for. Fine.

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What a terrible thing to say. Some of my best friends are American. Truly. Of course, they are all in Canada.

I don't hate everything the USA stands for. Just the imperialism, the raw, brutal violence, the trillions upon trillions spent developing technologies for the wholesale slaughter of humans, the blind obedience to television, and the eager willingness to send your sons and daughters off to kill other people's sons and daughters.

Other than that, I have no problems with the USA.

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My point is that the apologist for Cuba are too often simply defending everything about Cuba, 24/7, and they refuse to see anything worthy of significant criticism. The imperfections, if they exist, are minor and remain un-named. All else is perfection.

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[ 17 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

so now you are trying to convince us that the hundreds of of thousands of Canadian tourists who visit Cuba every year on package all-inclusive tours (largely to get drunk, get laid and get a suntan in that order) all choose Cuba to express solidarity with the Cuban revolution????

Have you been drinking a little too much Havana Club rum???

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No, I was trying to answer someone who said Americans don't emigrate or whatever to Cuba, not one. In fact, most Americans are headed off at the pass by their own government. Successive cosmetic governments in Washington have decided they will not trust American citizens with the personal privilege and freedom to travel to Cuba and decide by their own decision either way what Cuba is about, let alone decide to live in Cuba or do business and trade with Cuba.

As I was saying earlier, there are a handful of young Americans who cannot access the handful of mainly white medical colleges in the U.S. in Cuba and studying to be doctors. And they are in Cuba for the better part of six years. They have agreed to return to the U.S. and practice in regions of the U.S. where health care services are nil next to non-existent. (And there will be plenty of opportunity for them in that regard)

Canadians, otoh, are not restricted from travel to Cuba. We don't face economic punishment with hefty fines for the mere act of travelling to and spending a bit of money in Cuba and cavorting with communists. As a result, a lot of Canadians find Cuba a pleasant country to vacation. Some Canadians are there doing business in Cuba, vacation there annually or periodically - some have have bicycled across Cuba, and a few Canadians are living and working in Cuba. That's not to say there aren't Canadians in shithole neighboring countries like Haiti. There are.

[ 17 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
And what are you doing?

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I don't think everything is bad about Cuba nor do I think everything is good about the USA.

Sven, Cuba has shortages of all kinds that we take for granted here in the Northern Colony and especially compared with the land of plenty in America. Is that the kind of small-minded criticism you're looking for here "?" Are we reduced to sneering at Cuba because they have real difficulties trading for or buying everything from car parts to insulin syringes ?

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we should know there are shortages in kind in surrounding Caribbean and Central Americans nations along with a lack of basic human rights and all.

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Of course, this is the correct perspective with which to view Cuba. The relevant countries for comparison are El Salvador, Guatemala, Jamaica, Haiti, Honduras, and so on.

Cuba is a more egalitarian country than any of these, and that is good.

However, Cuba has no elections, its judicial system is laughable, there is far less room for criticism of the ruling party in Cuba than in any of those other countries, etc.

Even its equality, though better than many other countries, suffers from the fact that the Communist Party gets special treatment. There are special stores for party members, special rations, etc.

No one starves in Cuba, though, and that probably can't be said of Guatemala or Nicaragua.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
No one starves in Cuba, though, and that probably can't be said of Guatemala or Nicaragua.

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A little secret to concede about Latin America is in order here. It's actually quite difficult to starve to death or suffer serious malnutrition in most Latin American countries. And that's because of the geography, and the rich fertile lands, most of which are still owned by about a dozen or so wealthy families and rancheros granted their large tracts of property under Spanish colonial law.

Haiti is a slightly different situation after decades of cash crop capitalism produced thousands of acres of mineral depleted and soil eroded land. Washington consensus has done a lot of damage with the poor's ability to subsistence farm and earn a living to buy cheaper American food exports dumped on the island.

Dominican Republic is more lush and green than Haiti. Fresh fruit literally hangs from the trees and bushes at every turn. Although DR has some of the poorest people in this hemisphere, it is next to impossible to starve to death in most of that country. The DR is considered a good place for Haiti's desperately poor to emigrate to.

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Originally posted by Sven:
I didn't realize that I can no longer travel wherever I want, read and write whatever I want, worship as I see fit (I just don't see that it's fit to worship anything), quit my job and do something else whenever I want, etc., etc., etc., etc.

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You can do all those things? I don't have a hope in hell of doing any of them (except for the worship bit) and I live in Canada. Do you know why? I'm poor. (And it's not because I don't work hard.)

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Originally posted by RosaL:
...if...you are unable to do some of these things for awhile, you're not going to get much sympathy from people like me.

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Originally posted by Sven:

Envy breeds unhappiness.

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I don't envy you. Nor am I unhappy.

[ 17 September 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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Originally posted by RosaL:
I don't envy you. Nor am I unhappy.

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Originally posted by RosaL:
Well, you've attributed to me a universal quantification over a question-begging statement

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Actually, I didn't attribute any view to anybody. I simply wanted to call a certain view in question, lest anyone have it. Anyway, I don't quite know what your view is on the matter...

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Originally posted by RosaL:
In your case it was a matter of doing a favour for some friends. That really isn't relevant to what we're debating.

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In fact, I've done similar serving work for other small catering firms, owned not by friends but acquaintances, and so on. As to whether I am being exploited or harmed (which are two different things), does it matter whether my exploiters/harmers are friends?

I will ask a simple yes or no questions:

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Originally posted by Sven:

Then the point of your comment is...what?

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What did you think was the point of my comment? You thought I was saying I envied you????

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Originally posted by RosaL:
The point of my comment was that the "freedoms" you are talking about exist in societies like ours for people with money, not for everybody. And the kind of society you defend and the freedoms you defend are freedoms for people with money. The flip side of these freedoms is unfreedom for the rest of us.

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Originally posted by Sven:

Envy breeds unhappiness.

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):

In fact, I've done similar serving work for other small catering firms, owned not by friends but acquaintances, and so on. As to whether I am being exploited or harmed (which are two different things), does it matter whether my exploiters/harmers are friends?

I will ask a simple yes or no questions:

If I agree to work for a stranger for $12 per hour plus tips for the rather pleasurable work of tending bar at a wedding, am I thereby being harmed?

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a) you're the one who brought in being "harmed". I used the rather classical term, "exploitation".

b) Why you are doing the work makes a difference.

c) That is not a simple yes or no question and you have, as usual, phrased it to suit your perspective. Nonetheless, if they're making a profit from your labour, I suppose you are being exploited - though not, I would think, if you are "donating" it. (See what I mean about the friends?) If you have to sell your labour to live and someone is making a profit from it then, yes, you are being exploited.

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Originally posted by Sven:

How to those freedoms match up for people in Cuba?

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