[ 04 April 2008: Message edited by: Proaxiom ]

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Originally posted by jrootham:
Myth or reality?

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oh, pirates were no myth, but if there is one, it's that they were always, at all times "pirates" or outlaws.

Sir Francis Drake was widely considered by the Spanish to be a pirate, but to the English, and Queen Elizabeth and her very private financiers, he was a privateer, which is a legal pirate, someone who had a "letter of marque" from a soveriegn country to prey on any an all maritime activities by any other country, of any value, which was then divvied up between the privateer and the crown/investors. quite a lucrative situation for most involved. i say most because the crew usually had miserable lives and were paid a pittance.

actually, history shows that "pirates" were one of the earliest modern forms of direct democracy. most pirate crews and captains were deserters from Navies of whatever country they were a national of, at a time where you could be press ganged into service against your will, and likely ended up dying in miserable condidiotns far from home. captains were elected by crews, and served the crew's pleasure. shares of any spoils were divided equally, and a captain could be removed and replaced by a simple vote by the crew, at any time, so it was in his (or in the case of Anne Bonny, her!) best interest to keep the crew happy and well fed.

the fact that you could be a privateer one day, or even an actual naval officer or serviceman one day, and then due to change of circumstance at home, like the overthrow or military defeat of a monarch or government, a pirate and outlaw the next, contributes to the romanticising of pirates and thier lives.

myths abound about how terrible they were too. in the accounts of the infamous Blackbeard, Edward Teach, and his cronies, almost all describe them as gentlemen who were only after the material goods and ships they captured. usually if they cut out a smaller or less useful vessel, they would take what was of value, and leave the people unmolested. some cheeky buggers even gave reciepts! if a desirable ship was captured, pirate crews were transferred to the better ship and the victims transferred to the lesser one and sent on thier way.

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Originally posted by jrootham:
I was a bit terse. I was not asking the question "Are pirates myth or reality?" I was asking the questions "Is this thread about the myths or realities of pirates?"

With your intervention, we have both.

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God damn them all!
I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold
We'd fire no guns-shed no tears
Now I'm a broken man on a Halifax pier
The last of Barrett's Privateers.

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Here we go:

[ 04 April 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

from Rogue's Gallery, Pirate ballads, sea songs & Chanteys:

richard thompson-mingulay boat song...brings a similar tear te me eye and a lump in the neck:

Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys
Heave her head round to the weather
Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys
Sailing homeward to Mingulay

What care we though white the Minch is
What care we boys the wind and weather
When we know that, every inch is
Closer homeward to Mingulay

Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys
Heave her head round to the weather
Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys
Sailing homeward to Mingulay

Wives are waiting by the pierhead
Gazing seaward from the heather
Heave ahead round and we'll anchor
Ere the sun sets on Mingulay

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
WTF is this doing in the activism forum?

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Originally posted by Proaxiom:
That doesn't pass the smell test, webgear.

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This is a sub-forum of "walking the talk".

Anyway, my crew and I used to have a lot of fun racing against the Sea Cadets, whom we trash talked mercilessly. "Eat foam, sea dogs!" we'd yell at them over the transom as we left them in our wake. In a fog we'd bellow in a German accent, "Torpedo ... LOS!" or in cover shout "Prepare to BOARD!" , or suddenly appear abeam barking "Ramming Speed!" just for a good laugh and to terrorize the greenhorns. Heheh.

Anyway, all this is by way of saying that I wanted in those youthful moments to be able to come out of a fog bank, passing all other boats in a furious plane, and hoist the Jolly Roger as we crossed the finish line in a stunning victory.

Not that it ever happened. The Skull and Crossbones was viewed as a most sinister flag by serious racers and as something not to be trifled with.

The truth is, in one race that we won, we'd lost the pin for the port stay and, letting go for a moment to celebrate our victory, suffered the ignimony of seeing the mast slam onto the deck, barely missing our heads, and causing the dinghy to come to a dead stop just across the finish line as the mainsail dragged in the water like the carcass of a dead squid. D'oh!

Won the race though.

[ 04 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Cueball: ... I was going to ask if crime can be activism.

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Trade union activity was treated as criminal activity in North America until the passage of the Wagner Act in the USA in 1935 and the passage of similar legislation in Canada a little over 10 years later. Trade union activity was treated as a criminal conspiracy before that.

That's what civil disobediance is- breaking one law to protest another.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Actually the most powerful pirate ever was a Chinese female pirate who ran a fleet of 400 pirate ships in the oceans of Indochinese coast and Hainan.

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PARIS, France (AP) -- April 4, 2008 - Pirates seized control of a French luxury yacht carrying 30 crew members Friday in the Gulf of Aden off Somalia's coast, the French government and the ship's owner said.

Attackers stormed the three-mast Le Ponant as it returned without passengers from the Seychelles, in the Indian Ocean, toward the Mediterranean Sea, said officials with French maritime transport company CMA-CGM.

"This is a blatant act of piracy," Prime Minister Francois Fillon told reporters while on a visit to Brussels. "The Defense and Foreign ministries are mobilized to act as quickly as possible, I hope in the coming minutes or hours to try to win the freedom of these hostages."(...)

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Fresh out of jail, the captain of the anti-sealing ship Farley Mowat yesterday accused Fisheries Minister Loyola Hearn of lying when he said the vessel was boarded and seized in national waters by Canadian officials in a dramatic showdown this weekend.

Alexander Cornelissen, who hails from the Netherlands, said the ship never strayed into Canada's 12-nautical-mile territorial limit, but cannot prove it because the Canadian government seized the ship, along with the ship logs and GPS-tracking records.

"My message to Mr. Hearn is that he's an absolute liar. He's lying about this, and let him prove it," Mr. Cornelissen said in an interview yesterday upon his release from jail in Sydney, N.S., along with First Officer Peter Hammarstedt, after Canadian author Farley Mowat, the ship's namesake, put up bail money.

"It's an absolute outrage," Mr. Cornelissen said. "How dare they board a foreign vessel in international waters, a Dutch-registered vessel with a Dutch captain? They held the entire crew at gunpoint."

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Here's the relevant quote ...

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The angry war of words over the seizure of the ship continued yesterday. Paul Watson, the head of the militant Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, which owns the ship, called Canadian officials "pirates" and charged that officials boarded the ship in international waters to prevent potentially embarrassing footage from being made public - and, he said, possibly putting an end to the seal hunt. He said the Mowat's 17-member crew had videotape footage of seals screaming while being skinned alive.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I have been following the news coverage closely, waiting for someone on the government side to deny that the arrest took place in international waters, and it hasn't been forthcoming.

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I've seen many articles where the journalist states that Hearn claims the ship was in Canadian territorial waters, but I haven't seen any verbatim quotation from Hearn to that effect. It seems to me it would be a very simple thing for the government to hand out to journalists a map with an x on it showing where the Mowat was seized, in order to put the issue to rest. Because if the arrest was in Canadian waters then there would be a lot less public sympathy for the Sea Shepherd people.

And yet, the government still permits the Sea Shepherders to call Hearn a "liar" without refuting the allegation. Either he is a liar, or he's very bad at public relations.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

excerpt:

Federal Fisheries Minister Loyola Hearn, however, has said the arrests were made within Canadian waters.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
excerpt:

Federal Fisheries Minister Loyola Hearn, however, has said the arrests were made within Canadian waters.

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I just heard something that gives Canada the authority to arrest outside the 12 mile territorial limit if necessary. I'll look for the link later.

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Thus the Sea Shepherd people are telling the truth about where the arrest took place, and Loyola Hearn is being careful not to deny it, but asserting a right to lawful arrest anyway. Maybe the gullible and lazy journalists are reading that assertion as a claim that the arrests were made inside the 12-mile limit, without Hearn actually saying so (because he knows it's not true).

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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CTV: Hearn said the vessel was in "Canadian territorial waters" but didn't say if it was within 12 nautical miles (22 kilometres) of the coastline. The minister has also said the Fisheries Act gave him the leeway to act outside the 12-nautical mile limit.

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M.Spector has a point.

The Minister accomplished what he set out to, initially, which was to impound the Farley Mowat, dispose of any unpleasant evidence of the practices of the seal hunt, place spying devices and what have you on the vessel, and so on. The Farley Mowat will now be searched, at a snail's pace, for evidence of anything, perhaps including a lengthy search for dangerous bellybutton lint from The Netherlands, after which the seal hunt should be well over and no more evidence can be collected this season.

Watson is right. The Minister, and the Canadian government in general, has taken a horrific propaganda beating from which the seal hunt may never recover.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Like I said, the media keeps saying that Hearn has said that, but they never give an actual quote.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Hearn also said - right into the microphones - that the Cabot Strait is within Canada's 200 mile boundary.

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What has Hearn said about that?

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Hearn said he has spoken to the Dutch (Netherlands?) government and that they are on side with him; he asked their govt to revoke Watson's Netherlands boat registration.

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[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

Me: He was making reference to Canada's boundaries clearly including ALL of the Cabot Strait. I posted a link to a government map of Canada a few days ago showing this.

M. Spector: Interesting. Again, the country of registry of the boat would only matter if the arrest took place outside the 12-mile limit.

Me: The 12 mile limit is irrelevant to this discussion. Hearn wants the Dutch registry of Watson's boat revoked because Watson has broken Canadian law and he doesn't want that boat back in Canadian waters.

ETA: Hearn said he will be calling the countries of the European Parliament (Union?) to ask that none of them register Watson's boat once it is stripped of Netherlands registry (if indeed it is).

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
He was making reference to Canada's boundaries clearly including ALL of the Cabot Strait. I posted a link to a government map of Canada a few days ago showing this.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Yes, that map showed Canada's Exclusive Economic Zone or Continental Shelf. It's irrelevant to this discussion, because Canada does not have the authority to arrest ships at will throughout that zone.

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excerpt:

The animal rights group, led by environmental crusader Paul Watson, says the seizure was illegal because the ship was in international waters at the time.

excerpt:

But federal Fisheries Minister Loyola Hearn rejected that claim, saying the Fisheries Act gives him the authority to take action beyond Canada's 12-nautical-mile territorial limit.

excerpt:

Still, the Fisheries Department has confirmed that on March 29 - one day after the hunt started - Foreign Affairs issued a diplomatic note to the Netherlands requesting help dealing with the Mowat "as it is flying a Dutch flag."

This would explain why Hearn has never been quoted as saying the boat was within the 12-mile limit - because it wasn't!

BTW the federal Fisheries Act does not confer any internationally recognized jurisdiction on the federal government that it does not already have under the international law of the sea.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
I seem to remember reading about a past Canadian government that was somewhat successful in this regard.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
We all cheer when Spanish trawlers are ceased.

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Does anyone on this site know if the ship was actually endangering the the workers on the ice? Does anyone know if the ship took itself into a close quarters encounter with other ships?

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[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

"[Minister Brian] Tobin directed DFO to establish a legal argument which could be made for the seizure of a foreign vessel in international waters using the premise of conservation."

However, unless Watson and the supporters of the crew of the Farley Mowat are arguing that the seal hunt is leading to the decimation or extinction of the seals, then this case is unrelated ... other than that a precedent was set for boarding a vessel in international waters by the Government of Canada for reasons of conservation. The only thing the Government of Canada is preserving is the right to "hunt" seals undisturbed, unphotographed, and unrepentant.

I guess the crew of the Farley Mowat can be thankful that the trigger happy Coast Guard crew didn't open fire on them with a .50 calibre (12.7 mm) machine gun like they did [across the bow mind you!] on the Estai when the latter fled its pursuers.

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

The proof is here.