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Author Topic: The “Christian” foundations of Europe - Not
Wilf Day
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Babbler # 3276

posted 16 December 2004 09:35 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Turkey and the hypocrisies of Europe:
quote:
A rhetorical device favoured by opponents of Turkish entry is to affirm the “Christian” (or “Judaeo-Christian”) foundations of Europe.

The argument ignores three basic realities. First, the cultural, political and linguistic origins of European lie in Greece and Rome, and long predate Christianity (the word “democracy” is found nowhere in the Bible). Moreover, Christianity and Judaism are in their origin not European at all, but - itself a testament to 2,000 years of interaction - religions that originated and have long flourished in the middle east.

Second, Muslim empires - and in particular the Ottoman, precursor of the Turks – have a record of historic tolerance of Jews and other minorities that (while open to considerable criticism) is far superior to that of Christian Europe. Indeed, the permanent Jewish population of around 50,000 in modern Turkey, descendants of those expelled by Christian Spain in 1492, is testimony to one of the best records of toleration of Jews of any country.

Third, the contemporary culture of Europe is not in any meaningful sense Christian; it is, rather, secular in tone and content if not actually hostile to religion.



From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 16 December 2004 09:43 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree that Islam was infinitely more tolerant to religious minorities (Dhimmi) than Christendom was, moreover, Islam was far kinder to cats!

But there is a fear in Europe not restricted to the right-wing or Islamophobes,

"the contemporary culture of Europe is not in any meaningful sense Christian; it is, rather, secular in tone and content if not actually hostile to religion".

And that is something I see very much worthy of defence, as long it is even-handed and not ethnocentric. Here our hatred of organised religion has infinitely more to do with the CatholicGrande noirceur than with the Muslim brand of obscurantism.

It is a very complex question for leftists. I have at least as much problem (if not more) with Poland and the reactionary, women-hating laws they passed after Stalinism bit the dust. But then, I feel far more comfortable hating my "own" religion.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 16 December 2004 09:52 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for that link, WD. I admit I have a soft spot for Turkey (which flies entirely in the face of my regular condemnation of their deplorable and abominable human rights record). Part of the reason I support their bid for the EU is that it will put direct pressure on the government to deal with the legacy of Ataturk, (i.e. militant authoritarianism), and own up to the atrocities visited upon the Kurds and Armenians.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 16 December 2004 10:26 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If Cyprus blocks Turkey, among other things, it would be an incredibly stupid move for Cyprus. But it's possible that they might. In this situation, they'll get nothing at all. They gave up a chance to get something, though I don't know how stacked that deal was.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 16 December 2004 10:35 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Would Turkey's admission improve the situation of the thousands of Turkish "guest workers" - many born in the EU - who until recently were considered foreigners in Germany and other EU countries?

Already for Eastern European workers, it seems their migration rights are diluted or delayed ...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 16 December 2004 10:40 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Admission would get them citizenship in the EU, which would confer many privileges that EU citizens get in non-"home" countries. Such as preferential admission and university scholarships, etc, etc. Of course, some of these things they may already get with guest worker status, I don't know. I'd imagine that existing Turkish guest workers would be exempt from any labour mobility limits imposed on EE countries.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged

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