Just what Canada needs, a pro-life TD banker for leader of the Liberal party.

Liberals just don't get, do they!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081017.WBSpector2008 1017195525/WBStory/WBSpector

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I don't understand why the Liberals think McKenna (or Iggy, Rae, or Manley) would be a winner for them. Where are the centrist or even liberal Liberals of today?

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It does seem like Dion's failure is being used as a convenient excuse by the likes of Manley to turn the Liberal Party further right. How did that work out for Paul Martin? The last thing the Liberals should attribute their dismal showing to is that they'd "turned too far left."

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: JeffWells ]

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I don't understand why the Liberals think McKenna (or Iggy, Rae, or Manley) would be a winner for them. Where are the centrist or even liberal Liberals of today?

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I don't understand why the Liberals think McKenna (or Iggy, Rae, or Manley) would be a winner for them.

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I suspect that one of the things they're looking for is a certain kind of personality. Frank is famously down-to-earth, friendly, funny -- even people who don't agree with his politics admit that he's really warm and likeable. (I know him quite well -- don't agree with his politics but have often enjoyed his company.)

People in Fredericton love to recount that when he was premier, he walked to work every morning, stopping along the way to chat with anyone he met. And there are always the stories about how he answered his own phone in the premier's office.

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Originally posted by JeffWells:

It does seem like Dion's failure is being used as a convenient excuse by the likes of Manley to turn the Liberal Party further right. How did that work out for Paul Martin?

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Originally posted by Sharon:

I suspect that one of the things they're looking for is a certain kind of personality. Frank is famously down-to-earth, friendly, funny -- even people who don't agree with his politics admit that he's really warm and likeable. (I know him quite well -- don't agree with his politics but have often enjoyed his company.)

People in Fredericton love to recount that when he was premier, he walked to work every morning, stopping along the way to chat with anyone he met. And there are always the stories about how he answered his own phone in the premier's office.

I think Bob Rae (unpopular as he is in many circles) also has that ability to connect with people. I don't see Iggy and Manley in the same way at all at all.

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Originally posted by Coyote:
I said before on this or another board that McKenna is the Libs best threat. The majority of Canada's swing voters swing blue/red, and McKenna appeals to them. He has executive and business experience. He is an excellent communicator.

McKenna is a far more attractive candidate for the Liberals than either Rae or Iggy, who have far too many "unfavourables", as they like to say these days.

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After losing the election with a policy wonk as a leader, I think the Liberals will want someone with charisma. That disqualifies Manley and McKenna.

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Originally posted by V. Jara:

Draft Paul Martin! Draft Paul Martin! 255 seat majority guaranteed!

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It does seem like Dion's failure is being used as a convenient excuse by the likes of Manley to turn the Liberal Party further right. How did that work out for Paul Martin? The last thing the Liberals should attribute their dismal showing to is that they'd "turned too far left."

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The Liberals didn't go to far to the Left. They didn't go left. They went for a GP platform and the economic structure is Right Wing. I expect the Liberals to implement the Tax cut and drop the carbon tax as a campaign plank.

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+ I don't think many people are aware of McKenna's anti-abortion stance yet. That's a no-no.

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Some try to hide their stance and play the field openly like Elizabeth May has done. She is considered by certain church members as anti abortion pro life and to other orgs as pro choice.

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McKenna will not run. Apparrently he has been "testing the waters" for Liberal leadership since 1989!
After losing the election with a policy wonk as a leader, I think the Liberals will want someone with charisma. That disqualifies Manley and McKenna.

+ I don't think many people are aware of McKenna's anti-abortion stance yet. That's a no-no.

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I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard.

In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord.

He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ]

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Originally posted by West Coast Lefty:

I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard.

In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord.

He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ]

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I think Bob Rae (unpopular as he is in many circles) also has that ability to connect with people. I don't see Iggy and Manley in the same way at all at all.

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I don't know what gives you that idea. Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle.

I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto, but the question is whether they hail from the 'left' or 'right' wings of the party, and I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ]

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Originally posted by ghoris:
I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

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do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ][/QB]

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They'd be wise to try the latter. I'd say there are more votes to be taken from the Cons than from the NDP and Greens. Dion was the most progressive Lib leader in decades yet he didn't galvanize NDP or Green voters.

About 10 days before this election most of the polls had the Lib-Con gap shrinking to about 5%. I don't think there's a lot of love for Stephen Harper among many who voted for him, and a more right-wing Lib leader will have a better chance of exploiting this. Someone at the Globe also wrote a column explaining why many many traditional Liberal supporters stayed home.

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Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive:
Rae could definitely take a lot of the NDP vote...look how poorly the NDP has fared against him in Toronto Centre.

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But Toronto Centre is hardly representative, even for Toronto. Bill Graham won 52% in 2006. Rae won 53% in 2008.

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Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle.

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Now that Stephane Dion has mercifully agreed to get lost, prominent Liberals and influential Canadians of all stripe are burning up the phone lines to Frank McKenna, practically begging the former New Brunswick premier to jump into the Liberal leadership race.

"He is being utterly flooded with calls from all over the place," says one of McKenna's closest confidants.

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http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Weston_Greg/2008/10/20/7149456-sun.html

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]

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Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
Well, after Rae ran all over the country bashing New Democrats and as an extension people who voted NDP, he won't be the guy bringing NDP on board.

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I'm betting Stockholm's description of Rae would be totally different if Rae hadn't become a Liberal.

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and you'd be wrong. I first met Bob Rae when i was a teenager in the late 70s when he first ran for Parliament and got elected. I found him to be humourless, miserable guy with zero people skills back then and my view has never changed.

I didn't broadcast that when he was ONDP leader - but you don't have to look very far to find people who worked with him for 20 years in the NDP and never particularly liked him as a person. That is one of the (many) reasons why when he became a Liberal and ran for leader - there was virtually no one of any significance that followed Rae from the NDP to the Liberals. To get people to follow you like that - you need to have built up a personal following and have people who would crawl naked over a lot full of broken glass for you. Because Rae had such a miserable personality - no one felt close enough to him personally to want to follow him to the Liberals.

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He tried and tried. He phoned just about every New Democrat of any significance across Canada - ex-Premiers, ex-provincial cabinet ministers, everyone who was in the ONDP caucus when he was leader etc... he begged and pleaded hoping that ANYONE from the NDP would appear by his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader. Everyone he called hung up on him.

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Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party.

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: josh ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
He got Tark Fatah!

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And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I've spoken to people who got calls.

Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party.

He failed.

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I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.

I don't know if Robin Sears officially joined the Liberal Party but he was shilling for Rae in the last leadership campaign. If Rae succeeded in pulling Sears out of the NDP then the NDP should be grateful.

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
He got Tark Fatah!

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Originally posted by -=+=-:

And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP.

Not sure how much traction they got though.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?

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Rae's an excellent public performer and quickly became a star after first getting elected to the House of Commons in 1978.

The Ontario NDP looked to be on the precipice of power in the 1970s under Stephen Lewis. However, party fortunes sank under Lewis's successor, Michael Cassidy - in his one and only election as leader in 1981 the NDP went from the 27-28% popular support they enjoyed throughout the 1970s down to only 21% and lost 12 seats and the Tories regained their majority after 6 years of minority government.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?

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No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.

I think that McKenna or Ignatieff would make excellent leaders of the Liberal party. I think it would make them far more competitive as well. In BC the Liberal vote all but collapsed and it was the Cons who benefited the most from that collapse. I want the Liberals fighting to regain those votes lost to the Conservatives.

Oh yeah and one of their lead players in BC this time was Rae. He carried the bash the NDP message to every NDP riding he could find. He didn't erode our support but the Liberals disappeared. Go Iggy Go win back that vote from the cons.

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But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP.

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I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant.

I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back.

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Originally posted by Coyote:

If you think Paul Martin's problem was being on the right of the Liberal party, you've misread the last 6 years of federal politics.

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during the election, whether it be out canvassing (toronto-danforth...and guelph when the by-election was announced), at the pub, at friends houses, out sailing with crew i didn't know, almost without exception, people who knew i was NDP (either through conversation or the button i was wearing), either started foaming at the mouth immediately, or in the case of self-admitted lefties or ndp'ers, appologised first, then started the foaming, nobody can stand the guy. it is almost universal, and not dependant on party affiliation.

it is worth noting that during the Liberal convention, Rae polled
lower than Dion amongst liberal convention delegates. i think he polled the lowest of all the candidates.

personally i would like to see the Libs pick Ignatieff. he's right enough on the big picture stuff...foriegn and monetary policy ( i say monetary as i see him as a Martin Lib) that he would appeal to the rightwing libs that drifted to the Cons, and regardless of what you may think of his writing as an intellectual, would make mincemeat of harper in every way in public, debate or otherwise.

he would likely also alienate the swing voter that shuffles back and forth between the Libs and NDP depending on how the wind blows and be less able to poach from us.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.

No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.

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Is that really the question? I thought the question was what acts of government made by any NDP government, in my living memory have actually lived up to the promise of their stated pre-election position.

The Liberals are often accused, here, of running from the left and ruling from the right. Well the NDP has a legacy which it also needs to answer for. So rather than shitting your pants and lashing out at me when I, or anyone else, tries to get you to confront this legacy, why don't you just answer the question.

How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP? Nothing you have said indicates that the NDP cares to prevent such occurences in the future, by confronting the issue head on. Rather, it seems you would just denounce anyone who brings the issue up.

Hey! This is a thread about Frank McKenna. I didn't even bring the Rhodes Scholar up, but yes, its me who is trolling the board. I just reacted to more knee-jerk partisan denial.

This answer is much more satisfactory and realistic and certainly less chauvanistic:

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Originally posted by alisea:
He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.

I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant.

I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back.

I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.

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[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:

...How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP?...

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that is the question, isn't it? i was appalled, looking on from Filmon's PC Manitoba, when Rae adopted "Filmon Fridays", and the slide went further down from there.

ever since i moved to ontario in '01, all i've heard about when folks hear or figure out i'm NDP, is negativity about Bob.

and from listening to Dosanjh in his post-election rants, the same question Cueball asked, should be asked of him too.

how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone?

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Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

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Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters

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These are four out of the evil 12 NDP MPPs under Rae who voted AGAINST same sex spousal benefits when Rae allowed his "free vote" in 1994.

I don't know if Barbara Hall ever actually joined the Liberals - I think she has to be non-partisan in her job.

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Originally posted by ghoris:
[QB]

I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto,

Q]

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Originally posted by farnival:
how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Hey, it worked for Hazen Argue, who ended up in the Senate.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
McKenna will not run.

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The only people with ground campaigns up and running are Rae and Iggy.

One of the 2 will win the leadership.

Neither will be able to impress Canadians and bring the libs back to "power"