quote:

---

Cueball from the previous thread: The right just feeds off the apparent hypocrisy. Palin is getting all kinds of sympathy points because of these mendacious and silly attacks.

---

Which speaks to Michelle's comment.

quote:

---

That beauty queen picture with the slogan about the only beauty queen who doesn't want world peace? A case could be made for that being sexist, but on the other hand, her own campaign is really pushing the "hot chick" angle and they're mobilizing her base with it. So does that make the satire within bounds? I don't know, maybe.

As for Wente, what she's doing is talking about Republican men and their sexist reaction to her, and then decrying it. And she's also saying that when you promote an unqualified woman and play up her sex appeal, and a bunch of guys in the party and in punditry fall for it, there are going to be some red faces when they realize that they lost a lot of support because of it.

Does that mean she's stupid? No, not at all. I think she's pretty darn smart. But I also think she's pretty mean, pretty calculating, and out of her league. She can get away with petty and corrupt shit when she's the big fish in her tiny pond, but on the national stage, with intense media scrutiny, she can't get by that way.

I think the most sexism during this campaign can be found within the Republicans, not the Democrats. Sure, there is sexism within the Democrats. And I still think the Republicans put Palin up as a trap, hoping the Democrats would fall into it and start showing some of their below-the-surface misogynist colours. And the occasional Democrat has fallen for it and done it.

But much, much more sexist has been the Republican base, with their objectifying and sexist slogans about Palin. And it's going to be really something else - something awful - to watch them turn on her when McCain loses the election because of his terrible VP pick.

---

As an example take this website.

http://www.vpilf.com/

For those that don't know the acronymn it means VP I'd like to F****, a play on MILF.

One look at the imagery used, the t-shirts for sale the reference to 'one step away from PILF' and to me this screams base level sexist crap and horrifying that this references someone who is running for one of the most powerful positions in the world. Talk about lack of respect.

Must be someone making a buck here right? Smarmy people or person.

Well no it's not that easy to right off. Guess who actually owns the domain?

If you guessed the McCain/Palin campaign you'd be correct.

So as a progressive person I have no problem and do strongly condemn this type of blatant pandering and base level sexism. It's disgusting.

I do find it very difficult though to defend Palin and have sympathy when people take this sort of thing, make fun of it, use it for political satire and have sympathy when her own goddamn campaign promotes it. I also think it's highly doubtful that she is so naive as to be unaware of it.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons that I do dislike her so much because I find it so blatantly hypocritical it makes me feel sick. It bugs me because this sort of base level pandering does make it more difficult for women in positions like she is in and she's a part of it. That pisses me off.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ElizaQ:
There have been some attacks that I feel are blatantly sexist. The plays on the "beauty queen" line do bug me but at the same time I'm torn because the 'beauty queen' angle is something that's played by her own campaign. I'd say that the Right just isn't just feeding of the hypocrisy but is actually part of creating the hypocrisy and Palin herself is playing right along.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

I see this point. But the best way to avoid their game is to side step it.

---

I agree but I'd say with Palin it's not quite so easy to just side step it all and avoid it. It's an integral part of her campaign. It's part of her talking points and as Remind pointed out in the other thread part of the campaigns conceptual framing. *wink wink*

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

quote:

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Palin is getting all kinds of sympathy points because of these mendacious and silly attacks.

---

Do not feed the animals.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
If you were really concerned about voting irregularities in the US, any close poll should be a warning. Only a clear victory would be safe from electoral manipulation.

Do not feed the animals.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

That's funny, last report on stats that I heard yesterday her disapproval rating was about 12 points higher than her approval rating. And those who are sympathetic to her appear to be rightwing religious nuts, who are at the same time accusing Obama of being a Muslim terrorist, a follower of Satan, and are making race baiting actions against his campaign.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
Amazing isn't it? She can't be that much stupider that Dan Qualye but there you go... wonder why that is?

---

Half the friggin VP's I can remember were underqualified for the position. Quayle is one. Friggin GWB Jr. is arguably underqualified for the job he has now. This is American politics remember?

Amazing how it is that all kinds of arbitrary biases impact the prospects of those you support, like Obama, but when it comes to those who you don't like, its all about the issues.

Right.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Amazing isn't it? She can't be that much stupider that Dan Qualye but there you go... wonder why that is?

---

It's pretty simple Cueball. Their whole campaign is based on spurious and unfounded smears, attacks racial whistle blowing and bald face lies and around every corner what policy statements do actually happen get discredited as being wrong, not logical and idiotic. Palin is worse then McCain in this case.

Palin has been found to have broken ethical laws in her home state as well as used state money for personal reasons. Pretty much every single thing that was touted as the reasons for her getting the nomination has been shown to be not true. 'Bridge to nowhere, reformer, tax lower, commander in charge of national security, energy expert, experienced in foreign policy etc etc'

In pretty much every unscripted interview that isn't a Fox news puff piece she doesn't answer questions or just makes shit up and comes off as knowing very little about what she's supposed to be talking about.

She also holds extreme right views when it comes to women's rights as well as holds extreme religious views, extreme even for the religious right. There are tapes of her with witching hunting , anti-semite pastor and her Church supports 'Jews for Jesus' and promotes "homosexual going straight programs'

Her husband is a successionist and she has attended and spoken successionist conventions.

Take all that and add in the blatant flirty sexual pandering al la the VP debates and your asking why?

Again, Dan Quayle was of a similar type, and indeed not very bright and also a fundamentalist Christine who followed a weird sect, yet if your report is true about Palin's approval rating, then there is a prima facie case to be made that some of her problem relates to her sex.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Half the friggin VP's I can remember were underqualified for the position. Quayle is one. Friggin GWB Jr. is arguably underqualified for the job he has now. This is American politics remember?

---

Not denying GWB was under qualified, never tried once to say he was qualified, in fact quite the opposite, and I have mocked him relentelessly and so has pretty much everyone here that I have seen. Along with Pearl Wolfowitz and Cheney. And gosh even McCain himself. Got any other red herrings out there?

quote:

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:

BS. In this election the VP candidate actually matters. In this election the Republican VP candidate has more of chance of actually becoming President then any other VP candidate in recent memory. McCain's age is a factor and his health is a major factor and all this is known going into it.

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Any VP is a heartbeat away from the presidency. There were 2 attempts to shoot Ronald Reagan, and he was already old. This theme hardly matters. Ronald Reagan was president, and he was an idiot, fundamentalist prop for the conservative powers that be in America.

Palin would be no different.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Because of the fact that she is a woman, soley? No. Partly? Yes, so much should be self-evident if one accepts the premise that North American society is fundamentally sexist.

Again, Dan Quayle was of a similar type, and indeed not very bright and also a fundamentalist Christine who followed a weird sect, yet if your report is true about Palin's approval rating, then there is a prima facie case to be made that some of her problem relates to her sex.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

You forgot the dozens of other reasons of which I listed a few. Where your supposed prima facie case falls apart is that when she first came on the scene her approval ratings were through the roof and for two weeks the McCain campaign jumped up in the polls not down. It wasn't until people actually started to find out what she's all about ie..the issues behind her, that her approval ratings started to plumment.
So sorry I call BS on the it's just because she is a women and subject to sexism.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
Any VP is a heartbeat away from the presidency. There were 2 attempts to shoot Ronald Reagan, and he was already old. This theme hardly matters. Ronald Reagan was president, and he was an idiot, fundamentalist prop for the conservative powers that be in America.

Palin would be no different.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
I have never not once made a supporting comment about Obama, don't know where you tried to pull that from. Nor did I say that about Dion, but good try at tilting windmills that are not even there.

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No about Obama, and it was not you about Dion? Because I remember it this way:

quote:

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The Liberals downfall, with Dion as leader, has nothing to do with his being French. And everything to do with who they are and what they stand for. As we can see exampled by this comment from the OP and what it tells us.

If Duceppe had been leader of the Liberals, or would have been another national party leader, he most likely would have been leader of a minority government, or had a strong opposition position to leverage himself from, to win the next time.

Canadians across the country, that I have spoken with really like him, and the leader's approval polls show the same. There is no anti-francaphone sentiment that I have seen here in BC. People fight to get their kids into the totally french speaking achools, and the mixed ones too.

---

Not a smidgen of anti-francophone sentiment in all Biritsh Shangrila.

Almost the same statement as here regarding Palin.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Any VP is a heartbeat away from the presidency. There were 2 attempts to shoot Ronald Reagan, and he was already old. This theme hardly matters. Ronald Reagan was president, and he was an idiot, fundamentalist prop for the conservative powers that be in America.

Palin would be no different.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
Exactly our point, Palin is no different, and thus deserves the mocking and derision she gets, just as Reagan and any other poltiician does.

---

Except that Palin is being subjected to a whole barrage of sexist assaults, such as "Vice President I'd like to Fuck", and low and behold here approval rating is even more in the hole than Quayle. Go figure. But the US of A is not sexist when it suits you.

quote:

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:

Was Reagan shot twice before he was elected? Did Reagan have a history of recurrent meleanoma which statistically speaking has a high recurrence rate with the next one more then likely leading to death going into the election? No.

---

The chances of being assassinated when being president of the United States are probably as high, if not higher than the chances of McCain dying of natural causes, statistically speaking.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB]

The chances of being assassinated when being president of the United States are probably as high, if not higher than the chances of McCain dying of natural causes, statistically speaking.

---

Or if one simply looks at some of the material lobbed at her. Beyond the "Nailin' Palin" pornography (eagerly relayed by the media before Hustler's piece of shit is even out!), Palin is basically criticized for "doing femininity". Is McCain equally criticized for "doing masculinity"? (Or Obama for doing MLK, I might add - at my own risk...) No. Why? Because it's not symmetrical. Masculinity remains revered, while femininity is a loser's game. Women are lambasted both ways, for being either too feminine or not enough. Clinton really got that crossfire treatment last year; Palin's version of this is the nincompoop/wily schemer, hot chick/fascist monster double bind. Terribly bad, reactionary reasons to criticize her, displacing excellent ones. But expediency rules.
Expect the Repugs to wash their hands clean of their loss Tuesday night - they have already started apparently - while "progressives" will still be railing at the straw woman...

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:

So your basing your argument on a 'probably' as high? Is this just a 'feeling' or based on actual data?

---

Your basing your arguement on the probability of a recurrence of a disease that would most likely be fatal. I am not basing my arguement on anything. I am saying the arguement about being a "heart beat away from being president" is spurious. All VP's are a heartbeat away from being president, if they were not, the position would not exist.

4 presidents have been assassinated 6 have survived assassinations. George Bush is the 43rd President of the United States. This means that nearly 10% of all presidents are assassinated, and that over 20% have faced assassination.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
No about Obama, and it was not you about Dion? Because I remember it this way:

---

quote:

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Not a smidgen of anti-francophone sentiment in all Biritsh Shangrila.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:

Or if one simply looks at some of the material lobbed at her. Beyond the "Nailin' Palin" pornography (eagerly relayed by the media before Hustler's piece of shit is even out!), Palin is basically criticized for "doing femininity". Is McCain equally criticized for "doing masculinity"? (Or Obama for doing MLK, I might add - at my own risk...) No.

---

Also Hilary Clinton wasn't trying to DO feminity. She was just doing herself and yes she got attacked. That was wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
Did you edit your post to put his being french "didn't" hurt him? As I what I read from your comment, was that you said I said his being french hurt him. And it is was that to which I was responding. So either you changed it, or I misread it, as I answered in the context that I do not believe his being french hurt him and thus have never said it did.

---

Precisely you said that it was the issues that sunk Dion and bias played no role, you just repeated the same thing here in terms of Palin. My point is that you seem more than happy to alledge that bias plays a roll against forces you support, but deny that those biases affect those you don't.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
Putting some words in my mouth cue, eh, as I said not that I have observed.

---

So you what exactly did you mean when you said: "There is no anti-francaphone sentiment that I have seen here in BC."

To me that sounds like a basic denial that there is anti-francophone sentiment in ROC, on top of a statement where you said that Dion being Francophone did not hurt his election bid.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I am not basing my arguement on anything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
Come one Remind, you can be cheaper than that.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
rather than addressing the content of the post in question.

---

I was asked to present statisticaly evidence to support my contention that every VP is heartbeat away from being president. Indeed, being a heartbeat (or a bullet wound) away from the presidency is the major function of the position, other than that it is pretty much ceremonial.

I was pointing out that there is a 1 in 10 chance that any president will be killed in office.

The whole "Being a heartbeat away from the presidency" is just a spurious catch phrase, which is a kind of cool way of pointing out that McCain is old. So what? I was suprised to see that it was defended as if it was a "real" point, when in fact there is already a significant chance that any president will die while in office.

They changed the structure of the VP debates for her. Citing her lack of experience and how that it would be unfair. Not my words, the campaigns.
Then, even with what was basically a question and answer format with little actual debate she still didn't do well.

The latest one was when she made her first policy speech on Special Needs kids and focused particularly on things like autism promising loads of new money for schooling and care. Now part of their economic policy is a spending freeze so how do you pay for it? Well by cutting spurious earmarks of course. The one that was mentioned was silly research on fruit flies and other silly science.

The problem? Well genetic research on a particular chemical in fruit flies brains is a big part of current research for a cure on you guessed it...autism.

Anyway suit yourself. I have already embarassed myself enough by taking the fascination with circus down in the states way, way to seriously.

Of course, Sara Palin. Sex clown, just like Britney Spears. It's not like she might be a "heartbeat away from the presidency", anything serious like that. Tear her apart.

The presidency is not even a very important position, and is mostly ceremonial. The right often sticks figurhead clowns into the office, and then manipulates them from behind the scenes. Reagan and Bush II are both like that. Palin would be the same, McCain too from what I can see... War hero! Hah. What a joke.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Please follow the thread stream then, as opposed to looking for things to attack.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:

Except that Palin is being subjected to a whole barrage of sexist assaults, such as "Vice President I'd like to Fuck", and low and behold here approval rating is even more in the hole than Quayle. Go figure. But the US of A is not sexist when it suits you.

Sexism has nothing to do with it.

---

Did you actually read my first post? The VPILF thing is supported by her own goddamn campaign. The VPILF thing is not a progressive or leftist attack.
There are signs and buttons at her rallies. People SELL them.
That's not an attack...it comes from her own supporters.

You also completely ignored every other reason that I listed. Heck of course, those don't fit into your perceived reason so lets just throw them out as spurious and not important.

It just HAS to be completely due to sexism. You know for someone whose bellyaching about people here ignoring the issues, you sure seem to be ignoring the actual 'issues' or reasons for people not thinking she'd be a great VP.

Oh yes here's another two big ones, 'the wolf kill'. When that one came out the polls dropped.

Then of course there was her policy on making woman pay for their rape kits.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
I wasn't attacking, I was mocking, apparently you can't recognize the difference. And thereins lies the problem, me thinks.

Moreover, I was following the thread stream, and that is how I knew you were not basing your argument on anything, if I hadn't been I might actually have been deceived into believing you were.

---

So you actually think that being a "heartbeat away from the presidency" thing is a big deal?

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ElizaQ:

Did you actually read my first post? The VPILF thing is supported by her own goddamn campaign. The VPILF thing is not a progressive or leftist attack.
There are signs and buttons at her rallies. People SELL them.
That's not an attack...it comes from her own supporters.

You also completely ignored every other reason that I listed. Heck of course, those don't fit into your perceived reason so lets just throw them out as spurious and not important.

It just HAS to be completely due to sexism. You know for someone whose bellyaching about people here ignoring the issues, you sure seem to be ignoring the actual 'issues' or reasons for people not thinking she'd be a great VP.

Oh yes here's another two big ones, 'the wolf kill'. When that one came out the polls dropped.

Then of course there was her policy on making woman pay for their rape kits.

Nah... those wouldn't effect people opinions. How silly of me to think otherwise.

---

Forgive me. I breezed through the site, and really could not tell where it was coming from. Right or left. Are you sure its a right wing site, and not some complex joke? That is the way I read it.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
As I said those play into some negative tropes that are pretty familiar, and I think focussing on them reinforces them. I don't think its really necessary to do so here. There is a lot of that out there already, why compound it by giving it a "left" credibility.

Anyway suit yourself. I have already embarassed myself enough by taking the fascination with circus down in the states way, way to seriously.

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

Oh so now talking about problems with her actual policy on 'Special Needs' plays into a trope?

And her performance on policy issues at the VP debate plays into a trope?

quote:

---

They changed the structure of the VP debates for her. Citing her lack of experience and how that it would be unfair. Not my words, the campaigns.
Then, even with what was basically a question and answer format with little actual debate she still didn't do well.

---

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:

Forgive me. I breezed through the site, and really could not tell where it was coming from. Right or left. Are you sure its a right wing site, and not some complex joke? That is the way I read it.

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Yes I am sure. The domain owner is apparently the same one that owns other official campaign sites.
As well as there have been numerous reports about VPILF wear at rallies and you can buy stickers, buttons and shirts with the acronymns on many other sites that sell stuff in support of Palin.

The issue was wether sexism in American society negatively affects her campaign. It doesn't matter so much the source of it.

If you remember, I think this begins here:

quote:

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Because of the fact that she is a woman, soley? No. Partly? Yes, so much should be self-evident if one accepts the premise that North American society is fundamentally sexist.

---

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
That is all fine. I was responding to this specifically:

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

So one should just ignore the reality of the campaign then, even when it comes from the actual campaign itself and even when that reality effects peoples opinions and plays into reasons why her approval ratings fell.

You are the one who asked the initial question as to why that could be.

So basically that can't be a reason because it's plays into tropes and as progressives we shouldn't reenforce those tropes by talking about it in terms of analysing reasons for falling approval ratings because well, it's sexist.

Could you even consider that perhaps people maybe might think that making special concessions based on her 'inexperience' and then even with those concessions she still didn't do well, might actually play into people oh I dunno...thinking there might be an issue with her being prepared to be VP and a heartbeat away from the Presidency?

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Even if it is theoretically supporting her, does inherent sexism demean her and undermine her credibility nonethless?

The issue was wether sexism in American society negatively affects her campaign. It doesn't matter so much the source of it.

If you remember, I think this begins here:

[ 25 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

And yet you are ignoring every other reason that has been posted as to why her approval ratings fell so hard .

That's where this line of conversation started. You believe it's because of sexism, yet as I have pointed out there are dozens of actual 'real' issues that have affected it. Real issues that have nothing to do with her being a woman or sexist crap.

quote:

---

Throughout his time as vice president, Quayle was widely ridiculed in the media and by many in the general public, in both the USA and overseas, as an intellectual lightweight.[12] Contributing greatly to the perception of Quayle's incompetence was his tendency to make public statements which were either self-contradictory ("We don't want to go back to tomorrow, we want to go forward"), logically redundant ("The future will be better tomorrow"), obvious ("For NASA, space is still a high priority"), geographically wrong ("I love California. I practically grew up in Phoenix."), fallacious ("It's time for the human race to enter the solar system"),[13][14] or painfully confused and inappropriate, as when he addressed the United Negro College Fund, whose slogan is "A mind is a terrible thing to waste", Quayle said "You take the United Negro College Fund model that what a waste it is to lose one's mind or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."[15]

[SNIP]

There was much criticism of Quayle after the campaign's televised vice-presidential debate, in which he compared his amount of Congressional experience to that of John F. Kennedy when he was running for president. Democratic candidate Lloyd Bentsen said in rebuttal, "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy," to which a noticeably surprised and unprepared Quayle replied, "That was really uncalled for, Senator," as both applause and boos were heard from the debate audience. Bentsen replied that it was Quayle who had made the initial comparison. Quayle's reaction to Bentsen's comment was played and replayed by the Democrats in their subsequent television ads as an announcer intoned: "Quayle: just a heartbeat away."

---

Dan Quayle

So why is Palin so unsually unpopular?

I am not saying you have to like or respect Palin. You seem to be under the impression I like her, or am saying she has to be defended because she is woman. Or treat her with kid gloves. I am not saying that at all.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ElizaQ:

Could you even consider that perhaps people maybe might think that making special concessions based on her 'inexperience' and then even with those concessions she still didn't do well, might actually play into people oh I dunno...thinking there might be an issue with her being prepared to be VP and a heartbeat away from the Presidency?

---

Of course. That goes without saying.

Noting that I don't think there is anything special about having a right wing Christian Fundamentalist, who is kind of ignorant and unwordly "a heartbeat away from being the president", because the VP role is to be a "heatbeat away from the presidency". There is a fairly high statistical chance that any US president will be killed in office. That is SOP. To me being "a heartbeat away from being the president" is nothing new, nor particularly pertinent here.

I noted in particular the case of Dan Qualye, who seems to be about as qualified as Palin appears to be. But you are saying that her approval rating is the lowest in 30 years for a VP. I simply suggested that the root of this unpopularity might be sexism in North American society, which did not effect Qualyes campaign.

You evidenced some of this with you VP's I'd Like to Fuck web site. Whose Naylin Paylin might be another good example. [link is not really suitable for work] I don't think its really relevant where that comes from, her supporters or opponents, in a general sense, I just don't see why it should be reinforced by certain kinds of stereotyping I see here.

There is an error here in your charachterization of my view.

I have clealy outlined the specific forms of attack that I think are counter-productive before, that being those that focus a lot of attention upone Palin's "stupidity" and her coniving nature, her sexuality/sexualization. I said there is enough of that out there already, targetting women generally, and there is no reason to reinforce that. That is all.

I said, in fact: "Surely there are enough problems with the Republican platform that people here could rise above jeering, scoffing and cackling about Palin being stupid and coniving?"

Therefore, I did not specifically target your comments as being among those that I thought were counterproductive. They were general comments about some of the things I have seen here. I directed your attention to the "beauty queen" joke that appeared on another thread, as an example of something that fits into this trope. However, it bothers me that there is a tenedency to gloss over, or ignore, the sexist nature of some attacks made against Palin from the left, because of the fact that she is running with McCain.

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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I just don't understand why it's so difficult to see the difference between what Palin and her campaign are doing. They don't even compare with Clinton. Palin isn't doing herself, she and her campaign are purposely creating a somewhat stereotypical female image as her political 'thing' as part of the manipulation for people to vote for her but hell no, we don't dare actually comment about it or mock it, or make fun of it or shed any light on it's crass and blatant hypocritical nature like we would any other politician.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ElizaQ:
As an example take this website.

http://www.vpilf.com/

For those that don't know the acronymn it means VP I'd like to F****, a play on MILF.

---

From what I can tell, that looks like a web site made to mock her by Democratic supporters, not an admiring site by Republican supporters. I'm not positive, haven't spent enough time on it to know for sure, but most of the articles seem to be slanted against her. I'm amazed that it's owned by the McCain Palin campaign and I'm not quite sure I believe it - are you sure you're not mistaken? Unless this is an attempt at a Rovian smear against the Democrats.

quote:

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As Michelle said I do think it will be something awful if and when they turn on her to place blame. I do and will have some sympathy but it's very tempered sort of sympathy because she seems to have no problem going along with it right now. It's a two way street so to speak.

---

It's not sympathy for her that I'm talking about. I'm saying it will be an awful sight to behold not because it'll make HER feel bad. It will be awful because it will be sexist and degrading and I think ALL women suffer when any public woman is degraded in sexist ways. It's just one more trope the rest of us have to overcome.

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
Again, Dan Quayle was of a similar type, and indeed not very bright and also a fundamentalist Christine who followed a weird sect, yet if your report is true about Palin's approval rating, then there is a prima facie case to be made that some of her problem relates to her sex.

---

But he's not a similar type in that way. He didn't play on traditional sexist stereotypes of men in order to get to where he wants.

And I see the point that ElizaQ is making here. Palin is doing the sexy-flirty thing and the Republican campaign (not sure how much she's involved in this) is playing up the "hot chick" angle, to the point where Republicans show up wearing sexist crap to all of her speeches, and she says nothing about it, instead seems to bask in it. The Republican base makes her out to be a sex kitten, or as that web site says, a VP I'd Like to Fuck, and how does she react? She winks at people in debates and tells them, "You betcha!"

So I can see where this would confuse people and blur the lines when it comes to criticizing her.

Perhaps the reason she's down so far in the polls now isn't simply because she's a woman, but because she's a woman who is trying to make "cutesy" and "sexy" into qualifications for the White House.

Most women I know get very turned off by that, not because they're sexist, but because we know that this kind of pandering to sexist stereotypes hurts us all.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
So why is Palin so unsually unpopular?

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Well let's see:

Blatant abuse of power during her time as Mayor of Wasilla (including attempts to ban books from the library) and Governor of Alaska (including allowing her husband access to government personnel files to pursue a personal vendetta)? Check.

A refusal to cooperate with inquiries into her abuses including more recently allowing the McCain campaign to send a herd of lawyers to her home state to tie the process up in knots? Check.

Views on reproductive choice that go against the majority of Americans since only the most adamant of "pro-lifers" oppose abortion in cases of rape and incest? Check.

Fundamentalist religious views that have seen her looking on in approval at, and praising, sermons that contain anti-semitism? Check.

Blatant and repeated lies? Check.

Campaigning that has consisted mostly of the worst kind of gutter politics? Check.

An initial refusal to be interviewed by any but friendly media? Check.

Revealing almost complete ignorance of the issues and even of the workings of American government when she finally has agreed to be interviewed by the media and/or tried to address policy in her campaign speeches? Check.

Approving of things like hunting wolves from helicopters and suing the EPA to have polar bears removed from the list of endangered species? Check.

1. Many attacks I've seen on Palin are blatantly sexist.

2. Palin herself is sexist and panders to sexism.

3. Palin's politics are brutal and savage, and she deserves to be run out of town on a rail.

Why do we need to "Pick one" or "Pick two out of three" of the above?

And why would any progressive person deny any of these three points??

quote:

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Originally posted by pogge:

Well let's see:

Blatant abuse of power during her time as Mayor of Wasilla (including attempts to ban books from the library) and Governor of Alaska (including allowing her husband access to government personnel files to pursue a personal vendetta)? Check.

A refusal to cooperate with inquiries into her abuses including more recently allowing the McCain campaign to send a herd of lawyers to her home state to tie the process up in knots? Check.

Views on reproductive choice that go against the majority of Americans since only the most adamant of "pro-lifers" oppose abortion in cases of rape and incest? Check.

Fundamentalist religious views that have seen her looking on in approval at, and praising, sermons that contain anti-semitism? Check.

Blatant and repeated lies? Check.

Campaigning that has consisted mostly of the worst kind of gutter politics? Check.

An initial refusal to be interviewed by any but friendly media? Check.

Revealing almost complete ignorance of the issues and even of the workings of American government when she finally has agreed to be interviewed by the media and/or tried to address policy in her campaign speeches? Check.

Approving of things like hunting wolves from helicopters and suing the EPA to have polar bears removed from the list of endangered species? Check.

I may have missed a point or two but I think there's enough there to explain why a lot of Americans don't think very highly of her.

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I really don't see how that distinguishes Palin from numerous US politicians, somce very popular ones. The investigation into the ethics of her having have her sisters ex-Husband fired, found that it was unethical, but not illegal. That is the the USA for yah.

Dan Qualye was also anti-abortion, pro-life, Christian assembly church goer.

Gutter politics? This is a distinguishing feature for Palin's campaign? "Gutter politics" as far as I can tell was a term to invented to describe US elections.

Lying?

Supporting weird "gun culture" entertainments.

All of this is standard stuff.

I just don't see how one could argue that the USA is a sexist society, but that Sexism does not affect women in politics. But your list makes it look as if you think that anyone who supports the NRA, or who is against abortion on demand, doesn't have a hope in hell of getting elected.

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I really don't see how that distinguishes Palin from numerous US politicians, somce very popular ones.

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Agreed.

quote:

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I just don't see how one could argue that the USA is a sexist society, but that Sexism does not affect women in politics.

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Agreed. See my last post above. And in the other thread:

quote:

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The problem with the U.S. is that it produces despicable sexism while simultaneously producing despicable characters like Palin.

It should be possible to expose and condemn both.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
... your list makes it look as if you think ...

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You've been at this long enough to know that a phrase like that is a sure sign that you're about to put words in someone's mouth. No thanks. I've already eaten.

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: pogge ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

But he's not a similar type in that way. He didn't play on traditional sexist stereotypes of men in order to get to where he wants.

And I see the point that ElizaQ is making here. Palin is doing the sexy-flirty thing and the Republican campaign (not sure how much she's involved in this) is playing up the "hot chick" angle, to the point where Republicans show up wearing sexist crap to all of her speeches, and she says nothing about it, instead seems to bask in it. The Republican base makes her out to be a sex kitten, or as that web site says, a VP I'd Like to Fuck, and how does she react? She winks at people in debates and tells them, "You betcha!"

So I can see where this would confuse people and blur the lines when it comes to criticizing her.

Perhaps the reason she's down so far in the polls now isn't simply because she's a woman, but because she's a woman who is trying to make "cutesy" and "sexy" into qualifications for the White House.

Most women I know get very turned off by that, not because they're sexist, but because we know that this kind of pandering to sexist stereotypes hurts us all.

But there's a difference between pointing that out (which should be done) and making gratuitous sexist attacks on our own about her (which I think Palin's opponents also do).

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Thanks Michelle, that's pretty much what I've been trying to say. I do think that 'some' of her approval rating drop has to do with her pandering along the sexy, cutesy line, especially among women. Focus groups and polling did indicate that women in particular were turned off by the behavior many for the reason you stated.

In recent NYT article that did an expose on the inner workings of the McCain camp advisors did indicate that one of the reasons they picked her was because they figured that by putting a woman on the ticket that they'd get disaffected women Clinton voters. Basically playing the gender card. Initially there did appear to be a draw and significant shift among female voters after the convention. In the next months it appears though that the decrease in ratings is more significant among women voters then men.

WP

However I don't feel that it is the only cause or perhaps even the primary cause. I have posted numerous examples of actual issues, whether they're strictly about policy viewpoints (ie rape kits, wolf kill), actual issues about governing, (Troopergate, ethical violations, ties to a successionist party)or lies about her experience (foreign policy) and things that were initially touted as accomplishments and ended up being major exaggerations or complete lies. All turn offs and I don't buy the argument that such things wouldn't turn people off a male candidate as well.

Add to all that is her initial performance in the few media interviews that she did and the excuses given for the performances by the campaign which can basically be boiled down to 'the questions were too hard and unfair',the initial avoidance of any interviews which was again unprecedented especially for someone who nobody really knew and when she finally did start doing press stuff the lack of doing any sort of hard hitting interview, beyond the realm of Fox News and Limbaugh unless it's in tandem with McCain and you have more reasons for the drop.
She has yet to do a press conference which is unheard of in a VP campaign. Even Dan Quayle did press conferences.

Then add in her participation in the the campaigns , attack, smear, divisive strategy, which she actually jumped on more then McCain did at rallies, 'Palling around with terrorists,' commenting about the "Pro-American" parts of the country and people ' etc etc and you have more reasons.

I totally agree that there is difference between gratuitous attacks, things like the porno crap which unfortunately has been posted here and pointing out or discussing other issues even if by commenting on them plays into some sort of sexist trope.

Pointing out how she has been treated differently in say things like the VP debate or relationship with the media while yes I agree does appear to play into stereotypes it's not further reenforcing sexism for other women. I see it as the exact opposite in fact. In this case I actually see a double standard because I can't imagine a male candidate (Dan Quayle type or not) using the same reasoning and the same excuses for performance and lack of knowledge and getting away with it without widespread criticism.

Palin's lack of popularity is also IMO connected with the fact that she is basically connected, through her and the campaigns doing with the more extreme and divisive elements of the GOP, the faction that is her 'base'. McCain and hers campaign is being run as a 'base' campaign based more on fear and division then anything else, McCarthy like rhetoric about 'commies and socialism' and the difference between 'real' America and fake America. It's basically taken the Bush/Rovian playbook and put it on steroids and it is not sitting well this time both inside and outside of the party.
In the dynamic of this election there seems to be a fracturing of the actual party because of it.

quote:

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Originally posted by pogge:

You've been at this long enough to know that a phrase like that is a sure sign that you're about to put words in someone's mouth. No thanks. I've already eaten.

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: pogge ]

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It'a a very simple assertion: Sexism is pervasive in North American culture. Does it or does it not therefors mean that Sara Palin's campaign is impact by the sexist attitudes of North America?

I say yes. You say?

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:

Perhaps the electorate has maybe decided that they don't want the Quayle like 'dumb' anymore perhaps do to the subsequent years of base level political pandering that has been seen through the GW elections and adminstrations and it's resulting consequences.

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That is pretty much just conjecture.

The fact is that it was the Reagan election, where the Republicans began using a tandem team of a "pragmatic political engineer" mated to a Christian moralist: Bush/Reagan; Bush/Qualye; Chenney/Bush II and now McCain/Palin.

quote:

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:
While it's all well and good to make comparisons with Dan Quayle, the current political climate and dynamic is simply not the same ...

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However, since she's been a woman since before she was nominated for VP, it seems to me those people are already factored into the disapproval side (not all of it by any means) that registered immediately after the Republican convention. At that time, they would represent a faction (minority or majority? I dunno) within a minority.

The subsequent drop in approval would therefor mostly be attributable to policy, track record, and personality flaws like lying and not answering questions. These are the things that came out after the convention.

Unless there was a cadre of anti-female sexists who suddenly woke up and said "Oh yeah, she's a she, I disapprove now".

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: djelimon ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB]

I really don't see how that distinguishes Palin from numerous US politicians, somce very popular ones. The investigation into the ethics of her having have her sisters ex-Husband fired, found that it was unethical, but not illegal. That is the the USA for yah.

---

quote:

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Dan Qualye was also anti-abortion, pro-life, Christian assembly church goer.

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Yes, but he was not an active dominionist. You are also not taking into account the subsequent dynamic of the Christian Rights involvement in politics since Dan Quayle's time as well as the overall development of understanding amongst the electorate of what it is actually all about. Dan Quayle was not 'their' candidate. Palin has been labeled that 'Annointed One' and it's not because of her views on abortion or that she is pro-life. She's being looked at as being the One that will bring America closer to the country as mandated by God ie a more theocratic government. She's a spiritual warrior in that regard and part of a concerted and organized movement to bring God and God's warriors to government.

quote:

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Gutter politics? This is a distinguishing feature for Palin's campaign? "Gutter politics" as far as I can tell was a term to invented to describe US elections.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB]

That is pretty much just conjecture.

---

quote:

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The fact is that it was the Reagan election, where the Republicans began using a tandem team of a "pragmatic political engineer" mated to a Christian moralist: Bush/Reagan; Bush/Qualye; Chenney/Bush II and now McCain/Palin.

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quote:

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Using the Vice Presidency as a way of securing a constituency vote, such as the Christian Fundamenalists is another long term tradition in US politics, and not merely something tied to the Republicans.

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quote:

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But the most eye-opening of them all came, it would appear, when the Alaska Governor somehow drew a connection between Barack Obama's tax policy and an encroaching, nightmarish, communist government. The Illinois Democrat, she hysterically suggested, would, through his proposals, create a country "where the people are not free."

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I watched the video and no I would not describe her tone as hysterical.

So is it sexist or a harkening back to to the years of the "Communist Scare" and the 'hysteria' of the McCarthy years as is it's common descriptor.
Is reference to McCarthyism itself as
'hysteria' a valid descriptor or is it sexist as well and it's continued use a indicator of pervasive sexism in society.
Maybe it's both. I dunno.

Personally I would rather not see that term used as a descriptor because of it's stereotypical nature when it comes to women. That one really annoys me.

Moving beyond that to actual policy and issue statements which in my opinion is a good example of the scare tactics based on fallacious arguments and the actual policy statements if that's what you can call them of the McCain/Palin campaign.
To me it reads, "Vote for us because we won't raise taxes because as you know raising taxes like the other guy wants to do is like what those socialist/commies do."

quote:

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"See, under a big government, more tax agenda, what you thought was yours would really start belonging to somebody else, to everybody else. If you thought your income, your property, your inventory, your investments were, were yours, they would really collectively belong to everybody. Obama, Barack Obama has an ideological commitment to higher taxes, and I say this based on his record... Higher taxes, more government, misusing the power to tax leads to government moving into the role of some believing that government then has to take care of us. And government kind of moving into the role as the other half of our family, making decisions for us. Now, they do this in other countries where the people are not free. Let us fight for what is right. John McCain and I, we will put our trust in you."

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HP

[ 26 October 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]