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Author Topic: a revolution in Africa?
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 30 March 2008 07:52 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The African continent is poor, torn apart by war, battered by economic fundamentalists, and corrupt bureaucrats, and is currently suffering from the Aids pandemic. Given the desperate straights it finds itself in, why haven't the countries created an African equivalent of the bolivarian revolution?
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Fidel
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posted 30 March 2008 08:17 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think countries like Zimbabwe are the African equivalent of a rebellion against western attempts to re-colonize Africa by proxy wars, CIA and British meddling, and ultimately by gaining control of money creation and banking in Africa.

Africa has produced several good socialists in the last century. I think Patrice Lumumba was Africa's equivalent of Simon Bolivar. Patrice hoped to build a united Africa. The educated and articulate Lumumba was a natural leader and viewed as a threat to western interests. He was caged like an animal and tortured to death over several days by Belgian colonialists and probably with the aid of the CIA at the start of the 1960's.

The Congo, like Vietnam and N. Korea and several other countries during the cold war, is the scene of a horrific crime. Over five million Congolese have been slaughtered at the hands of U.S. proxies Rwanda and Uganda since the 1980's. Belgian colonialists managed to murder ten million by the end of their rein of terror in the Congo. Congolese were treated like animals and still are today to a large extent by so-called western democracies and their "great game" that just never ends.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 07:19 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, but the CIA was up to it's ass in south American politics too. Western governments backed puppet regimes on the continent, and allowed ethnic minorities to rule over every South American country. The Americans also caused tonnes of bloodshed in central and south america. At first glance the two continents have a similar history, so why hasen't socalism taken hold in Africa?
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Stockholm
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posted 31 March 2008 07:21 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What ethnic minority ruled Argentina?
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Boom Boom
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posted 31 March 2008 07:24 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Speaking of South America, CBC SunDay last night did a segment on Canada's pending free trade agreement with Columbia - and focused on gold mining by a Canadian company (headed by Ken Law) buying up all the mines on a habitated mountain, and working with the govt and local thugs to evict all the mountain residents to extract the gold. It's not just the CIA who are the pigs, although the CIA are arguably the worse by far.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 07:56 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What ethnic minority ruled Argentina?

Oops!


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Le Téléspectateur
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posted 31 March 2008 08:58 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What ethnic minority ruled Argentina?

Spanish settlers?


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 09:10 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:

Spanish settlers?


Can we please get back to discussing Africa?


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Stockholm
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posted 31 March 2008 09:11 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Spanish settlers are not a minority in Argentina. Their descendants are about 98% of the population! (There are very few Amerindians in Argentina) and the about 98% of the people who were oppressed by the military regimes in Argentina were also descendants of "Spanish settlers".
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Fidel
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posted 31 March 2008 09:19 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
At first glance the two continents have a similar history, so why hasen't socalism taken hold in Africa?

I think Africans are the ongoing victims of divide and conquer colonialism. Of twelve major wars in Africa, the CIA has been involved in eleven of them. Together with AIDS and hunger, wars, proxy wars, and crippling national debts have worked to keep Africa in disarray and low development. Some African countries have repaid principal on debt three times over with compounding interest to an international banking cabal. British-American dollarized colonialism is essentially in competition with German-EU attempts to assert control in Africa and Central Asia monetarily. And now China is competing for resources in Africa and providing funding alternatives to IMF and western-based capital for development. Corporate-funded terrorism also tends to keep left-wing groups and nationalists off balance in Africa.

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 09:20 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can we PLEASE discuss socalism in africa?
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Le Téléspectateur
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posted 31 March 2008 09:21 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Can we please get back to discussing Africa?

I thought that we were. You asked why a Bolivarian-type revolution has not gone down in Africa.

As Stockholm was quick to point out, most of the people who lived in Argentina were exterminated by settlers. This was the case for a lot of places in SA, like Cuba, Uruguay, etc. Maybe the destruction of Indigenous Peoples and their ideas might have paved the way for a type of revolution that is easier for you to see (as someone who has Eurocentric ideas, etc)?


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 09:29 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think Africans are the ongoing victims of divide and conquer colonialism. Of twelve major wars in Africa, the CIA has been involved in eleven of them. Together with AIDS and hunger, wars, proxy wars, and crippling national debts have worked to keep Africa in disarray and low development. Some African countries have repaid principal on debt three times over with compounding interest to an international banking cabal. British-American dollarized colonialism is essentially in competition with German-EU attempts to assert control in Africa and Central Asia monetarily. Corporate-funded terrorism also tends to keep left-wing groups and nationlists off balance in Africa.


But didn't things like that happen in latin America too? Was the bloodshed in South America not as extreme as it was in Africa?


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 09:31 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I thought that we were. You asked why a Bolivarian-type revolution has not gone down in Africa.

My apologies. I cross posted with Fidel

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


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Fidel
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posted 31 March 2008 09:39 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

But didn't things like that happen in latin America too? Was the bloodshed in South America not as extreme as it was in Africa?


South American countries were further along at the middle of the last century in terms of development than most African countries were after several centuries of brutal colonialism. Bolivarian revolution is still underway in South America and has much work to do in shrugging off the effects of a failed experiment in NeoLiberal capitalism.

South African socialism needs a start, and anywhere would be a good place to begin. The west aided and abetted fascist apartheid regimes in Rhodesia and South Africa as recently as the 1980's. People are resilient as a rule, but after decades of wars and proxy wars, AIDS and famine, I think Africa needs rescuing by the first world. The richest countries in the world need to throw Africa a lifeline not an IMF anchor or corporate-funded terror.


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Stockholm
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posted 31 March 2008 09:52 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
most of the people who lived in Argentina were exterminated by settlers.

The same could be said for Canada. Does that mean that the CIA is behind making sure that the 95% of Canadians who are non-aboriginal retain power?


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Fidel
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posted 31 March 2008 09:58 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

The same could be said for Canada. Does that mean that the CIA is behind making sure that the 95% of Canadians who are non-aboriginal retain power?


The first exterminations of indigenous people and theft of their land took place before the birth of OSS-CIA. First Nations people were subdued by colonialism and basic human rights violated long before the CIA and partners in crime began rigging elections and waging proxy wars around the world.


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Stockholm
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posted 31 March 2008 10:21 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
are you saying we should give them back their land and all 30 million of us who are of European descent should be deported to our countries of origin?
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Le Téléspectateur
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posted 31 March 2008 11:21 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
are you saying we should give them back their land and all 30 million of us who are of European descent should be deported to our countries of origin?

Can we just make a rule that people stop saying this? It's the stupidest, most non-productive thing that a settler person can say in conversations about decolonization. Just stop saying it. You know that now one wants it and that you don't really mean it, so you're just saying it to be stupid. Now cut it out.


quote:
The same could be said for Canada. Does that mean that the CIA is behind making sure that the 95% of Canadians who are non-aboriginal retain power?

I was referring to the fact that the natural progression from oppression to socialist revolution (which some people set their watches by) might not be a sure thing in places where people have grown-up with a different relationship to the European philosophical cannon.

CMOT might be looking for the wrong thing.


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Fidel
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posted 31 March 2008 11:44 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
are you saying we should give them back their land and all 30 million of us who are of European descent should be deported to our countries of origin?

Are you saying that the feds should reneg on native land claims for what bit of land FN's have laid legal claim to and continuing to be stymied by layers of bureaucratic incompetence and paternalism in Ottawa?

Whites are in the minority for the most part in African countries where NeoLiberal reforms, grinding poverty, and disease go hand-in-glove. I think rich whites should give up their land rights granted them and their families during times of brutal colonial rule.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 12:25 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
South American countries were further along at the middle of the last century in terms of development than most African countries were after several centuries of brutal colonialism.

South America had more infrastructure, more eurocentric schools etc.?

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 12:35 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I was referring to the fact that the natural progression from oppression to socialist revolution (which some people set their watches by) might not be a sure thing in places where people have grown-up with a different relationship to the European philosophical cannon.

CMOT might be looking for the wrong thing.


I might well be. What is the right thing to be looking for in the case of Africa?

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


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Ibelongtonoone
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posted 31 March 2008 12:46 PM      Profile for Ibelongtonoone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unionist - what if they were born there and have lived nowhere else?
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Le Téléspectateur
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posted 31 March 2008 12:47 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unionist isn't here.
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Ibelongtonoone
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posted 31 March 2008 12:47 PM      Profile for Ibelongtonoone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
sorry I meant Fidel
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Fidel
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posted 31 March 2008 12:49 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

South America had more infrastructure, more schools etc.?

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


Argentina, for example, was considered a prosperous country and good place to live in the 1970's. All that changed with U.S.-backed fascism followed by U.S.-inspired NeoLiberal economic reforms.

Chileans aspired toward socialism in the 1960's and early '70's. Chile was about to become an experiment in electronic democracy when their democratically-elected socialist leader was overthrown in a CIA-backed military coup 9-11-73. Instead, the entire country of Chile was handed over to los Chicago boys, students of Milton Friedman's wacky right-wing economic ideology for the next sixteen years. Thousands of socialists, union leaders, teachers and human rights activists were disappeared and tortured to death as occurred during fascist rein in Argentina.

Meanwhile in Colombia today, Cuban music, slogans and revolutionary icons are becoming more popular. U.S. dollars are no longer the dominant investment capital in South America, although the U.S. still sends military aid and financial donations to Latin America's militaries. Many people around the world have linked U.S. military aid and corruption of elected officials throughout Latin America during the cold war. The U.S. has been the largest source of terrorism in Latin America for many years with it's notorious School of the Americas training in black art of torture and terrorism, and it's mainly to repress socialist political opposition and terrorizing desperately poor people in general.


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Le Téléspectateur
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posted 31 March 2008 12:56 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Unionist - what if they were born there and have lived nowhere else?

I'm pretty sure that Fidel was talking about land OWNED by rich white people. People can live in a place and not OWN the land. Get it? Now let's never pretend that anybody has ever asked European settlers to "go home" or "go back to Europe" or any of the other ridicules things that settlers (usually white settlers) say when they are confronted with the realities of colonialism. fuck.


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Fidel
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posted 31 March 2008 01:18 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the problems with unequal land distribution in Africa are similar to what exists in Central America, that I know of, anyway. A handful of families, about 13 or so, own the largest tracts of the most fertile land in Central American countries. Similarly those families were granted large parcels of land during Spanish colonial times. And exclusive rights to the largest and most arable farmlands in the hands of a few doesn't work very well for the majority of people in those countries today. Human needs have changed since colonial times, a bygone era when basic human rights were not well established.
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Ibelongtonoone
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posted 31 March 2008 01:24 PM      Profile for Ibelongtonoone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was asking a simple question - since Fidel used the term "whites" is being an African defined solely by skin colour.
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Fidel
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posted 31 March 2008 01:41 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
I was asking a simple question - since Fidel used the term "whites" is being an African defined solely by skin colour.

It is when certain visible minorities inherited obscene wealth, which was usually created by the sweat, tears, and blood of a large and visible majority.


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Stockholm
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posted 31 March 2008 01:48 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Whites are in the minority for the most part in African countries where NeoLiberal reforms, grinding poverty, and disease go hand-in-glove.

Tell us about the neo-liberal reforms that have caused Zimbabwe to have to lowest life expectancy and the worst economy on the face of the earth?


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N.Beltov
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posted 31 March 2008 02:18 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CMOT, have a look at some of the following names ...

* Julius Nyerere (Tanzania)
* Robert Mugabe (Zimbabwe)
* Amílcar Cabral (Guinea-Bissau and Cape Verde)
* Kenneth Kaunda (Zambia)
* Modibo Keita (Mali)
* Samora Machel (Mozambique)
* ANC
o Nelson Mandela (South Africa)
o Thabo Mbeki (South Africa). Now President of South Africa
o Albert Luthuli (South Africa). He won a Nobel Prize for his efforts.
* Michel Micombero (Burundi)
* Eduardo Mondlane (Mozambique)
* Sam Nujoma (Namibia)
* Oginga Odinga (Kenya)
* Didier Ratsiraka (Madagascar)
* Jerry Rawlings (Ghana)
* Thomas Sankara (Burkina Faso)
* Léopold Sédar Senghor (Senegal)
* Ahmed Sékou Touré (Guinea)

Don't forget, as well, that Africa includes Egypt and therefore someone like Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser, much beloved, was also an African. So have a look at Arab socialism as well.

Cheers. And never mind the peanut gallery. Just think of this as an anti-imperialist thread.


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Doug
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posted 31 March 2008 02:57 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
are you saying we should give them back their land and all 30 million of us who are of European descent should be deported to our countries of origin?

Okay, I'll go if someone gives me a house in London. Not going to happen? Darn.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 04:51 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
CMOT, have a look at some of the following names ...

* Julius Nyerere (Tanzania)
* Robert Mugabe (Zimbabwe)
* Amílcar Cabral (Guinea-Bissau and Cape Verde)
* Kenneth Kaunda (Zambia)
* Modibo Keita (Mali)
* Samora Machel (Mozambique)
* ANC
o Nelson Mandela (South Africa)
o Thabo Mbeki (South Africa). Now President of South Africa
o Albert Luthuli (South Africa). He won a Nobel Prize for his efforts.
* Michel Micombero (Burundi)
* Eduardo Mondlane (Mozambique)
* Sam Nujoma (Namibia)
* Oginga Odinga (Kenya)
* Didier Ratsiraka (Madagascar)
* Jerry Rawlings (Ghana)
* Thomas Sankara (Burkina Faso)
* Léopold Sédar Senghor (Senegal)
* Ahmed Sékou Touré (Guinea)

Don't forget, as well, that Africa includes Egypt and therefore someone like Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser, much beloved, was also an African. So have a look at Arab socialism as well.

Cheers. And never mind the peanut gallery. Just think of this as an anti-imperialist thread.


Damn! I'm an idiot! Alright The've had socalists in the past, but it strikes me that the revolution has become still born. Is that just because of economic fundamentalism and AIDS? Whose bright idea was it to let the west economically castrate the continent anyway?


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 31 March 2008 04:55 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does this list have recently elected politicians on it?
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Le Téléspectateur
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posted 31 March 2008 05:03 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do electoral politics have a major role in socialist revolution?
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Le Téléspectateur
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posted 31 March 2008 05:06 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Damn! I'm an idiot! Alright The've had socalists in the past, but it strikes me that the revolution has become still born. Is that just because of economic fundamentalism and AIDS? Whose bright idea was it to let the west economically castrate the continent anyway?

Um... Why do you get to judge the health of "the revolution"? Your metaphor is both sexist and portrays African people as non-actors who are acted on by The West.


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Frustrated Mess
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posted 31 March 2008 05:20 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
African people as non-actors who are acted on by The West.

You mean they have control over their own destiny but the poverty, the dictatorships, the exploitation, is all their own doing?

Maybe they just need some missionaries.


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Stockholm
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posted 31 March 2008 05:21 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
* Julius Nyerere (Tanzania)
* Robert Mugabe (Zimbabwe)
* Amílcar Cabral (Guinea-Bissau and Cape Verde)
* Kenneth Kaunda (Zambia)
* Modibo Keita (Mali)
* Samora Machel (Mozambique)
* ANC
o Nelson Mandela (South Africa)
o Thabo Mbeki (South Africa). Now President of South Africa
o Albert Luthuli (South Africa). He won a Nobel Prize for his efforts.
* Michel Micombero (Burundi)
* Eduardo Mondlane (Mozambique)
* Sam Nujoma (Namibia)
* Oginga Odinga (Kenya)
* Didier Ratsiraka (Madagascar)
* Jerry Rawlings (Ghana)
* Thomas Sankara (Burkina Faso)
* Léopold Sédar Senghor (Senegal)
* Ahmed Sékou Touré (Guinea)

I never realized that one continent had that many total failures.


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unionist
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posted 31 March 2008 05:24 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am pleading, begging: Babblers, do not reply to this provocation. Please.
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Frustrated Mess
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posted 31 March 2008 05:25 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So you never studied North American history? That's not surprising. Oh ... unless you consider architects of conquest and genocide to be "winners".
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Le Téléspectateur
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posted 31 March 2008 05:35 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You mean they have control over their own destiny but the poverty, the dictatorships, the exploitation, is all their own doing?

Maybe they just need some missionaries.


Let me repeat what CMOT wrote: "Whose bright idea was it to let the west economically castrate the continent anyway?"

Besides using balls as the signifier of an equitable or sustainable economy (a rather a-historical analysis) the metaphor likens an entire continent of people to an anethesized patient on the operating table.


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darwinus
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posted 31 March 2008 06:14 PM      Profile for darwinus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it's a very interesting question. I don't have the answer!

I do however have questions/hypotheses. In Latin American there was always a certain sense of proximity between nations, which revealed itself in Latin-American wide interest in the anti-Imperialist struggles of their neighbors and the formation of widely disseminated mythologies. There were important successes against both Spain and the U.S.; this feeling of cultural proximity as it experienced the successes and lessons of history shaped the cultural ethos of Latin-America. Could something like this be an explanatory factor?

Bolivar's legacy of anti-imperialism has been critical, particularly in Bolivia, Ecuador,Peru and Venezuela. Certainly Sandino's courage in confronting American imperialism inspired many Latin Americans outside of Nicaraguan borders. The C.I.A.-backed coup of Arbenz's democratically elected government in 1954, impacted Che, Fidel, Guatemalan leftists and other Latin American struggling for social justice to pursue more militant avenues towards social transformation. Then, of course the success of the Cuban revolution had a major impact on Latin American culture.

I'm not very well-read on Africa history, although I do realize that they have had important liberation movements. I just wonder whether there has been the same sort of convergence around key anti-imperialist themes and also if perhaps the potential impact of those liberation movements has been drowned out and momentum lost due some of the other factors mentioned, such as aids, severe poverty, starvation, ethnic strife, illiteracy, debt slavery, etc. ?


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 31 March 2008 06:48 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Tell us about the neo-liberal reforms that have caused Zimbabwe to have to lowest life expectancy and the worst economy on the face of the earth?


According to this report in 2006 there are several glorious U.S. proxies and thirdworld capitalist shitholes under western economic tutelage ranking less livable than Zimbabwe.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 31 March 2008 07:39 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
darwinus: I'm not very well-read on Africa history, although I do realize that they have had important liberation movements. I just wonder whether there has been the same sort of convergence around key anti-imperialist themes and also if perhaps the potential impact of those liberation movements has been drowned out and momentum lost due some of the other factors mentioned, such as aids, severe poverty, starvation, ethnic strife, illiteracy, debt slavery, etc. ?

First of all, welcome newcomer. Babble needs more people who do not run, screaming, into the arms of economic Neanderthals when the term "anti-imperialism" comes up. Please consider sticking around.

Africa was the first object of the capitalist powers' colonial expansion, and it had proved to be the last region where they "conquered" territories previously not occupied, or redivided as a result of World War I. The colonial activity of each of the imperialist powers left its mark on the social and political affairs of their arbitrarily carved up possessions.

One need hardly add that thousands of shiploads of Africans were transported, by force, many of whom died on the journey, from Africa to another continent to become slaves for the enrichment of others. The horrific consequences of that barbaric crime against humanity is still being felt in both continents.

In any case, Africa developed a wide diversity of tribal and feudal relations, uneven development took place in the continent with an extremely motley pattern of socio-economic and political development. This had a strong effect, for example, on the development of an African working class - a precondition of any struggle for socialism - on movements for democracy, much less on movements for socialism.

Three countries stand out, however, and are worthy of very careful attention and study. These are: South Africa, Egypt, and Algeria. In each of these countries, outstanding victories were achieved, against great odds, by Africans determined to win their freedom faced with the horrific atrocities of colonialism and imperialism. In each of these countries, a significant and substantial working class took shape and influenced the direction and intensity of the liberation struggles.

The world can only look with admiration and awe upon the fighters in South Africa, for example, whose long walk to freedom (the words of that great African and world hero, Nelson Mandela) took decades and decades in the face of the terrible crimes against humanity of the odious apartheid regime. The names of Nelson Mandela, of Oliver Tambo, of Walter Sisulu, of Joe Slovo, of Samora Machel, of all the heroic anti-apartheid fighters, shall live forever.

Please do not think that remarks in this thread to the effect that such people were "total failures" is representative of the views of babblers. Have a read of our
policy statement and if you see anything here that is racist, sexist, homophobic, or classist (e.g. poor-bashing) then feel free to contact the moderators to complain.

The fight for democracy in Africa had to precede the fight for socialism in that continent. Furthermore, the national liberation struggles are also intertwined with these struggles, as they had to be, and affected the progress and direction of same.

Anyway, those are a few thoughts on the subject.

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 01 April 2008 04:03 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's interesting... reading back on this thread I wonder how relevant this conversation is to Africa and the experiences of people there. Might we just be weaving a fiction from our own narratives of Africa, revolution and socialism?
From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Geneva
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posted 01 April 2008 04:45 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
It's interesting... reading back on this thread I wonder how relevant this conversation is to Africa and the experiences of people there. Might we just be weaving a fiction from our own narratives of Africa, revolution and socialism?

yeah, I am always curious in Africa /Asia /Latin America threads, how many people have never BEEN there,

not that this is an absolute condition for having opinions (ex. I have strong opinions about Russia and have never been there), but some of the sweeping judgements might be tempered a bit by first-hand experince

anyways, a year ago I spent a few weeks in Ethiopia, and among the many developments in that fast-changing place (started a thread here on that) was the fact that the new complex for the African Union, based in Addis, built at a cost of $150 million, was being entirely 100 per cent paid for by -- China

imagine if France or Britain or the US were paying for the entire parliamentary complex of some key African country -- much less the major regional organization --, the screaming here would be deafening, and yet ...

so, I find the Ptolemaic view of Fidel, for one, who sees every regressive government action in Africa revolve around the CIA, tiresome and unrealistic:
Can no African leader screw up by himself?

Obama's ex foreign policy adviser thinks so, and me too:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200312/power

[ 01 April 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 01 April 2008 05:07 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't get it. You guys never heard of apartheid? Colonialism? The consequences, say, in Rwanda, of the carving up of the "possessions" of the colonial and/or imperialist empires, the classification of human beings into racial categories, the successful divide and rule approaches of these empires, the encouragement of tribal conflict, etc., etc.

Ring a bell, no? How about the military defeat of Arab socialist/nationalist Nasser in the 1967 war? The financing of organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood, and, later, Hamas, to undermine secularism, and therefore socialism, in Arab Africa by countries like the USA and Israel?

It's a wonder Africa is as far along as it is, and has produced such outstanding leaders, despite what's gone on, and is trying to extricate itself from pillage and robbery.

It is not that long ago now, and I can still remember public figures in this country, and in the USA, warning that supporting the anti-apartheid struggle will lead to communist dominoes and a Moscow "take over" of Africa. Prime Ministers and Presidents tripped over each other squawking this refrain. This is the kind of argument that was used to justify supporting that odious apartheid regime by our own "civilized" leaders.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Geneva
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posted 01 April 2008 05:21 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
MOVED TO ZIMBABWE THREAD

[ 01 April 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 01 April 2008 05:29 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A few names high on my list are: Amilcar Cabral, Patrice Lumumba, Gamal Abdel Nasser and, more recently, some of the South African leaders. The web sites of the African National Congress (ANC), the South African Congress of Trade Unions (SACTU), and the South African Communist Party (SACP) have many interesting contributions that an outsider can read and thereby become more knowledgeable about the nuts and bolts of post-apartheid South Africa as well as the past history of the struggles in that country. It is noteworthy that, while the Communist Parties in the former socialist countries suffered a precipitous decline in membership, the SACP surged in growth at the same time as those parties declined. It was the only CP in the world, that I'm aware of, that did so.

Edited to add: It's also worthwhile to point out that the anti-apartheid struggle was not just in South Africa but was a regional struggle in Southern Africa and beyond. Furthermore, as Michel Chossudovsky points out in Part II of his book The Globalization of Poverty, sub-Saharan Africa has been a most terrible victim of new forms of colonialism. Chossudovsky references the "Exporting of Apartheid" to sub-Saharan Africa, the installation of a US protectorate in Central Africa, the role of the IMF in famine in Somalia, economic genocide in Rwanda, the destruction of biodiversity and the wrecking of the peasant economy in Ethiopia, etc., etc., etc., ... Africa has been the "beneficiary" of western aid and assistance for ... decades. Yup.

There's already a thread specifically on Zimbabwe. This thread was started to discuss African socialism. But perhaps it was your intention to discuss what policies of Mugabe's were socialist, whether these policies have had any success, and so on?

There didn't seem to much in the way of specifics in your contribution, however, ...

[ 01 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 April 2008 07:47 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Let me repeat what CMOT wrote: "Whose bright idea was it to let the west economically castrate the continent anyway?"

I'm sorry, let me rephraise. Whose bright idea was it to let free market fundamentalists ruin the socalistic institutions that had been established in many african countries? The Capitalists must have had help from inside the african states they were trying to privatize.

quote:
It's interesting... reading back on this thread I wonder how relevant this conversation is to Africa and the experiences of people there. Might we just be weaving a fiction from our own narratives of Africa, revolution and socialism?

What direction do you feel this thread should be taking?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 01 April 2008 08:13 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Incidently, the current World Junior Chess Champion is an African. Ahmed Adly becomes the first player from the African continent to win a major world title (in chess).
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 01 April 2008 09:20 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
China is playing an increasing role in African economic development, which is arousing the venomous antagonism of the western countries and the institutions that those countries control.

quote:
Because of its lengthy history of anti-African racism and brutal exploitation of the continent – not to mention its hostility to the idea of a state sector at the commanding heights of the economy, which will be Africa’s savior – US imperialism is at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to competing with China. Angola has overtaken Saudi Arabia as China’s premier supplier of crude oil and is Luanda’s second largest consumer of oil – behind the US.

The short article, from the CPUSA's Political Affairs, also notes:

quote:
The relative decline of US imperialism – the locomotive of world imperialism – may be so significant that it will be unable to arrest the rising of Africa in league with China. US imperialism and British neo-colonialism, who owe their present elevated status to the plunder of Africa, should be in the forefront of aiding the rise of this continent; instead, they abdicate their responsibility in favor of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – and therefore create a huge opening for China to ride to the rescue. Of course, given the importance of African oil, it would be a mistake to assume that US imperialism has ruled out the possibility of military intervention in Africa itself – though one could easily imagine that the presence in their ranks of African Americans may give Washington pause.

From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 01 April 2008 09:40 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
imagine if France or Britain or the US were paying for the entire parliamentary complex of some key African country -- much less the major regional organization --, the screaming here would be deafening, and yet ...

It might be seen as a welcome respite from the bombings, assassinations, proxy wars, mass killings, resource rape, and institutionalized poverty we would otherwise expect.

If only all the West did was erect buildings.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 01 April 2008 12:23 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
...so, I find the Ptolemaic view of Fidel, for one, who sees every regressive government action in Africa revolve around the CIA, tiresome and unrealistic:
Can no African leader screw up by himself?

I think every society has people who are corruptible. The Romans were said to have made use of bribes and payoffs while expanding empire. Waging war on everyone all at once would have been too much of a strain on the tax base and resources at hand. German leaders made the same mistake in WWI and weren't expected to repeat that mistake in WWII.

I think suggesting that any ethnicity is without its weakest links would be a strange and discriminatory thing to say. But in order for corruption of the locals to take place, elimination of any would-be non-corruptibles has to happen through assassinations, death squads, and even proxy wars where and when necessary. Sometimes it helps to think like the fascist bastards they are.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 01 April 2008 12:44 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
imagine if France or Britain or the US were paying for the entire parliamentary complex of some key African country -- much less the major regional organization --, the screaming here would be deafening, and yet ...

Yeah, that would be as nutty as if Canada funded the Band Council system, the AFN and almost all services and infrastructure on native territories! Oh wait.


From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 April 2008 03:59 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I never realized that one continent had that many total failures.

Stockholm, if you don't have anything productive to say, then don't say anything at all. This is a non-comment, a trolling comment.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 03 April 2008 04:25 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Although, I disagree with his staement, it is a pithy analysis, Michelle. More productive on Stockholm's part would be to define "failure" and to explain how he believes each of them fits this definition. A few individuals on that list I consider heroes.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 April 2008 05:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, that's just it, Caissa. I'd have had no problem with the comment if he'd expanded on it, but he clearly just dumped it in with nothing else in order to piss people off. (And it worked; I got a complaint about it, which is why I responded.)

I would also be interested to hear why he thinks so.

[ 03 April 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 03 April 2008 06:22 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We concur, Michelle. I really would like to hear an expanded answer from Stockholm on this one.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 03 April 2008 09:14 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
We concur, Michelle. I really would like to hear an expanded answer from Stockholm on this one.

I respectfully disagree with both you and Michelle. I would like to hear a diminished answer from Stockholm on this one.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 03 April 2008 09:18 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yessss!!!!
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 03 April 2008 09:32 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Respectfully, unionist and Martin, I just think you don't want to hear Stockholm's Point of view.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 03 April 2008 09:46 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Caissa: Respectfully, unionist and Martin, I just think you don't want to hear Stockholm's Point of view.

Ahahahahahahahahahaha! That's hilarious. I realize that that may not have been your intention. Thanks anyway. I just had lunch and the laughter helped my digestion.

But seriously. Respect is something rather worthless if it isn't reciprocated! Don't you agree? The moderator has identified one comment - more could be found easily, let me assure you - that is just trolling. How is that respectful?

Don't you think unionist is actually being more respectful by conveying his unadulterated view that he'd like to hear less, rather than pretending that he'd like another scoop of crapping on Africa and Africans from Stockholm, in a thread on Africa no less? Don't you think that there ought to be a relationship between respect and truthfulness?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 03 April 2008 10:12 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Did I accuse Unionist of being disrespectful. I have a great deal of respect for unionist.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 04 April 2008 05:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
afrol news, billed as the only independent news agency dedicated exclusively to Africa, has this interactive web page with a map of all the African countries, a basic facts feature, that makes it easy to learn a bit about any or every country in the continent.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged

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