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Topic: a revolution in Africa?
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Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
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posted 31 March 2008 09:39 AM
quote: Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
But didn't things like that happen in latin America too? Was the bloodshed in South America not as extreme as it was in Africa?
South American countries were further along at the middle of the last century in terms of development than most African countries were after several centuries of brutal colonialism. Bolivarian revolution is still underway in South America and has much work to do in shrugging off the effects of a failed experiment in NeoLiberal capitalism. South African socialism needs a start, and anywhere would be a good place to begin. The west aided and abetted fascist apartheid regimes in Rhodesia and South Africa as recently as the 1980's. People are resilient as a rule, but after decades of wars and proxy wars, AIDS and famine, I think Africa needs rescuing by the first world. The richest countries in the world need to throw Africa a lifeline not an IMF anchor or corporate-funded terror.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
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Le Téléspectateur
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7126
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posted 31 March 2008 11:21 AM
quote: are you saying we should give them back their land and all 30 million of us who are of European descent should be deported to our countries of origin?
Can we just make a rule that people stop saying this? It's the stupidest, most non-productive thing that a settler person can say in conversations about decolonization. Just stop saying it. You know that now one wants it and that you don't really mean it, so you're just saying it to be stupid. Now cut it out.
quote: The same could be said for Canada. Does that mean that the CIA is behind making sure that the 95% of Canadians who are non-aboriginal retain power?
I was referring to the fact that the natural progression from oppression to socialist revolution (which some people set their watches by) might not be a sure thing in places where people have grown-up with a different relationship to the European philosophical cannon. CMOT might be looking for the wrong thing.
From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004
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CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
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posted 31 March 2008 12:25 PM
quote: South American countries were further along at the middle of the last century in terms of development than most African countries were after several centuries of brutal colonialism.
South America had more infrastructure, more eurocentric schools etc.? [ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ] [ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
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CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
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posted 31 March 2008 12:35 PM
quote: I was referring to the fact that the natural progression from oppression to socialist revolution (which some people set their watches by) might not be a sure thing in places where people have grown-up with a different relationship to the European philosophical cannon.CMOT might be looking for the wrong thing.
I might well be. What is the right thing to be looking for in the case of Africa? [ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
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Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594
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posted 31 March 2008 12:49 PM
quote: Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
South America had more infrastructure, more schools etc.? [ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
Argentina, for example, was considered a prosperous country and good place to live in the 1970's. All that changed with U.S.-backed fascism followed by U.S.-inspired NeoLiberal economic reforms. Chileans aspired toward socialism in the 1960's and early '70's. Chile was about to become an experiment in electronic democracy when their democratically-elected socialist leader was overthrown in a CIA-backed military coup 9-11-73. Instead, the entire country of Chile was handed over to los Chicago boys, students of Milton Friedman's wacky right-wing economic ideology for the next sixteen years. Thousands of socialists, union leaders, teachers and human rights activists were disappeared and tortured to death as occurred during fascist rein in Argentina. Meanwhile in Colombia today, Cuban music, slogans and revolutionary icons are becoming more popular. U.S. dollars are no longer the dominant investment capital in South America, although the U.S. still sends military aid and financial donations to Latin America's militaries. Many people around the world have linked U.S. military aid and corruption of elected officials throughout Latin America during the cold war. The U.S. has been the largest source of terrorism in Latin America for many years with it's notorious School of the Americas training in black art of torture and terrorism, and it's mainly to repress socialist political opposition and terrorizing desperately poor people in general.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004
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CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
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posted 31 March 2008 04:51 PM
quote: Originally posted by N.Beltov: CMOT, have a look at some of the following names ... * Julius Nyerere (Tanzania) * Robert Mugabe (Zimbabwe) * Amílcar Cabral (Guinea-Bissau and Cape Verde) * Kenneth Kaunda (Zambia) * Modibo Keita (Mali) * Samora Machel (Mozambique) * ANC o Nelson Mandela (South Africa) o Thabo Mbeki (South Africa). Now President of South Africa o Albert Luthuli (South Africa). He won a Nobel Prize for his efforts. * Michel Micombero (Burundi) * Eduardo Mondlane (Mozambique) * Sam Nujoma (Namibia) * Oginga Odinga (Kenya) * Didier Ratsiraka (Madagascar) * Jerry Rawlings (Ghana) * Thomas Sankara (Burkina Faso) * Léopold Sédar Senghor (Senegal) * Ahmed Sékou Touré (Guinea) Don't forget, as well, that Africa includes Egypt and therefore someone like Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser, much beloved, was also an African. So have a look at Arab socialism as well. Cheers. And never mind the peanut gallery. Just think of this as an anti-imperialist thread.
Damn! I'm an idiot! Alright The've had socalists in the past, but it strikes me that the revolution has become still born. Is that just because of economic fundamentalism and AIDS? Whose bright idea was it to let the west economically castrate the continent anyway?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
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Le Téléspectateur
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7126
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posted 31 March 2008 05:35 PM
quote: You mean they have control over their own destiny but the poverty, the dictatorships, the exploitation, is all their own doing?Maybe they just need some missionaries.
Let me repeat what CMOT wrote: "Whose bright idea was it to let the west economically castrate the continent anyway?" Besides using balls as the signifier of an equitable or sustainable economy (a rather a-historical analysis) the metaphor likens an entire continent of people to an anethesized patient on the operating table.
From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004
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darwinus
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15090
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posted 31 March 2008 06:14 PM
I think it's a very interesting question. I don't have the answer! I do however have questions/hypotheses. In Latin American there was always a certain sense of proximity between nations, which revealed itself in Latin-American wide interest in the anti-Imperialist struggles of their neighbors and the formation of widely disseminated mythologies. There were important successes against both Spain and the U.S.; this feeling of cultural proximity as it experienced the successes and lessons of history shaped the cultural ethos of Latin-America. Could something like this be an explanatory factor? Bolivar's legacy of anti-imperialism has been critical, particularly in Bolivia, Ecuador,Peru and Venezuela. Certainly Sandino's courage in confronting American imperialism inspired many Latin Americans outside of Nicaraguan borders. The C.I.A.-backed coup of Arbenz's democratically elected government in 1954, impacted Che, Fidel, Guatemalan leftists and other Latin American struggling for social justice to pursue more militant avenues towards social transformation. Then, of course the success of the Cuban revolution had a major impact on Latin American culture. I'm not very well-read on Africa history, although I do realize that they have had important liberation movements. I just wonder whether there has been the same sort of convergence around key anti-imperialist themes and also if perhaps the potential impact of those liberation movements has been drowned out and momentum lost due some of the other factors mentioned, such as aids, severe poverty, starvation, ethnic strife, illiteracy, debt slavery, etc. ?
From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2008
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 31 March 2008 07:39 PM
quote: darwinus: I'm not very well-read on Africa history, although I do realize that they have had important liberation movements. I just wonder whether there has been the same sort of convergence around key anti-imperialist themes and also if perhaps the potential impact of those liberation movements has been drowned out and momentum lost due some of the other factors mentioned, such as aids, severe poverty, starvation, ethnic strife, illiteracy, debt slavery, etc. ?
First of all, welcome newcomer. Babble needs more people who do not run, screaming, into the arms of economic Neanderthals when the term "anti-imperialism" comes up. Please consider sticking around. Africa was the first object of the capitalist powers' colonial expansion, and it had proved to be the last region where they "conquered" territories previously not occupied, or redivided as a result of World War I. The colonial activity of each of the imperialist powers left its mark on the social and political affairs of their arbitrarily carved up possessions. One need hardly add that thousands of shiploads of Africans were transported, by force, many of whom died on the journey, from Africa to another continent to become slaves for the enrichment of others. The horrific consequences of that barbaric crime against humanity is still being felt in both continents. In any case, Africa developed a wide diversity of tribal and feudal relations, uneven development took place in the continent with an extremely motley pattern of socio-economic and political development. This had a strong effect, for example, on the development of an African working class - a precondition of any struggle for socialism - on movements for democracy, much less on movements for socialism. Three countries stand out, however, and are worthy of very careful attention and study. These are: South Africa, Egypt, and Algeria. In each of these countries, outstanding victories were achieved, against great odds, by Africans determined to win their freedom faced with the horrific atrocities of colonialism and imperialism. In each of these countries, a significant and substantial working class took shape and influenced the direction and intensity of the liberation struggles. The world can only look with admiration and awe upon the fighters in South Africa, for example, whose long walk to freedom (the words of that great African and world hero, Nelson Mandela) took decades and decades in the face of the terrible crimes against humanity of the odious apartheid regime. The names of Nelson Mandela, of Oliver Tambo, of Walter Sisulu, of Joe Slovo, of Samora Machel, of all the heroic anti-apartheid fighters, shall live forever. Please do not think that remarks in this thread to the effect that such people were "total failures" is representative of the views of babblers. Have a read of our policy statement and if you see anything here that is racist, sexist, homophobic, or classist (e.g. poor-bashing) then feel free to contact the moderators to complain. The fight for democracy in Africa had to precede the fight for socialism in that continent. Furthermore, the national liberation struggles are also intertwined with these struggles, as they had to be, and affected the progress and direction of same. Anyway, those are a few thoughts on the subject. [ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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Geneva
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3808
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posted 01 April 2008 04:45 AM
quote: Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur: It's interesting... reading back on this thread I wonder how relevant this conversation is to Africa and the experiences of people there. Might we just be weaving a fiction from our own narratives of Africa, revolution and socialism?
yeah, I am always curious in Africa /Asia /Latin America threads, how many people have never BEEN there, not that this is an absolute condition for having opinions (ex. I have strong opinions about Russia and have never been there), but some of the sweeping judgements might be tempered a bit by first-hand experince anyways, a year ago I spent a few weeks in Ethiopia, and among the many developments in that fast-changing place (started a thread here on that) was the fact that the new complex for the African Union, based in Addis, built at a cost of $150 million, was being entirely 100 per cent paid for by -- China imagine if France or Britain or the US were paying for the entire parliamentary complex of some key African country -- much less the major regional organization --, the screaming here would be deafening, and yet ... so, I find the Ptolemaic view of Fidel, for one, who sees every regressive government action in Africa revolve around the CIA, tiresome and unrealistic: Can no African leader screw up by himself? Obama's ex foreign policy adviser thinks so, and me too: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200312/power [ 01 April 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]
From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 01 April 2008 05:07 AM
I don't get it. You guys never heard of apartheid? Colonialism? The consequences, say, in Rwanda, of the carving up of the "possessions" of the colonial and/or imperialist empires, the classification of human beings into racial categories, the successful divide and rule approaches of these empires, the encouragement of tribal conflict, etc., etc. Ring a bell, no? How about the military defeat of Arab socialist/nationalist Nasser in the 1967 war? The financing of organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood, and, later, Hamas, to undermine secularism, and therefore socialism, in Arab Africa by countries like the USA and Israel? It's a wonder Africa is as far along as it is, and has produced such outstanding leaders, despite what's gone on, and is trying to extricate itself from pillage and robbery. It is not that long ago now, and I can still remember public figures in this country, and in the USA, warning that supporting the anti-apartheid struggle will lead to communist dominoes and a Moscow "take over" of Africa. Prime Ministers and Presidents tripped over each other squawking this refrain. This is the kind of argument that was used to justify supporting that odious apartheid regime by our own "civilized" leaders.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 01 April 2008 05:29 AM
A few names high on my list are: Amilcar Cabral, Patrice Lumumba, Gamal Abdel Nasser and, more recently, some of the South African leaders. The web sites of the African National Congress (ANC), the South African Congress of Trade Unions (SACTU), and the South African Communist Party (SACP) have many interesting contributions that an outsider can read and thereby become more knowledgeable about the nuts and bolts of post-apartheid South Africa as well as the past history of the struggles in that country. It is noteworthy that, while the Communist Parties in the former socialist countries suffered a precipitous decline in membership, the SACP surged in growth at the same time as those parties declined. It was the only CP in the world, that I'm aware of, that did so. Edited to add: It's also worthwhile to point out that the anti-apartheid struggle was not just in South Africa but was a regional struggle in Southern Africa and beyond. Furthermore, as Michel Chossudovsky points out in Part II of his book The Globalization of Poverty, sub-Saharan Africa has been a most terrible victim of new forms of colonialism. Chossudovsky references the "Exporting of Apartheid" to sub-Saharan Africa, the installation of a US protectorate in Central Africa, the role of the IMF in famine in Somalia, economic genocide in Rwanda, the destruction of biodiversity and the wrecking of the peasant economy in Ethiopia, etc., etc., etc., ... Africa has been the "beneficiary" of western aid and assistance for ... decades. Yup. There's already a thread specifically on Zimbabwe. This thread was started to discuss African socialism. But perhaps it was your intention to discuss what policies of Mugabe's were socialist, whether these policies have had any success, and so on?
There didn't seem to much in the way of specifics in your contribution, however, ... [ 01 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
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posted 01 April 2008 07:47 AM
quote: Let me repeat what CMOT wrote: "Whose bright idea was it to let the west economically castrate the continent anyway?"
I'm sorry, let me rephraise. Whose bright idea was it to let free market fundamentalists ruin the socalistic institutions that had been established in many african countries? The Capitalists must have had help from inside the african states they were trying to privatize. quote: It's interesting... reading back on this thread I wonder how relevant this conversation is to Africa and the experiences of people there. Might we just be weaving a fiction from our own narratives of Africa, revolution and socialism?
What direction do you feel this thread should be taking?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 01 April 2008 09:20 AM
China is playing an increasing role in African economic development, which is arousing the venomous antagonism of the western countries and the institutions that those countries control. quote: Because of its lengthy history of anti-African racism and brutal exploitation of the continent – not to mention its hostility to the idea of a state sector at the commanding heights of the economy, which will be Africa’s savior – US imperialism is at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to competing with China. Angola has overtaken Saudi Arabia as China’s premier supplier of crude oil and is Luanda’s second largest consumer of oil – behind the US.
The short article, from the CPUSA's Political Affairs, also notes: quote: The relative decline of US imperialism – the locomotive of world imperialism – may be so significant that it will be unable to arrest the rising of Africa in league with China. US imperialism and British neo-colonialism, who owe their present elevated status to the plunder of Africa, should be in the forefront of aiding the rise of this continent; instead, they abdicate their responsibility in favor of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – and therefore create a huge opening for China to ride to the rescue. Of course, given the importance of African oil, it would be a mistake to assume that US imperialism has ruled out the possibility of military intervention in Africa itself – though one could easily imagine that the presence in their ranks of African Americans may give Washington pause.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 03 April 2008 09:46 AM
quote: Caissa: Respectfully, unionist and Martin, I just think you don't want to hear Stockholm's Point of view.
Ahahahahahahahahahaha! That's hilarious. I realize that that may not have been your intention. Thanks anyway. I just had lunch and the laughter helped my digestion. But seriously. Respect is something rather worthless if it isn't reciprocated! Don't you agree? The moderator has identified one comment - more could be found easily, let me assure you - that is just trolling. How is that respectful? Don't you think unionist is actually being more respectful by conveying his unadulterated view that he'd like to hear less, rather than pretending that he'd like another scoop of crapping on Africa and Africans from Stockholm, in a thread on Africa no less? Don't you think that there ought to be a relationship between respect and truthfulness?
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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