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Author Topic: "Workers" what are they?
libertarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6136

posted 04 August 2004 07:27 PM      Profile for libertarian        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I copied the following letter from Straight-goods and found its questions very interesting:

From: Peter Kells

Mr. Martin

I have been reading a number of your posts to straightgoods over the last while and you keep referring to this 19th century concept of the "workers". I also see that you are listed as a communications consultant. Since I have never met anyone in my life who was not a "worker", I am not sure what you are communicating by use of this term. Are you suggesting the early industrial distinction between hard physical labour and the genteel classes or what? Is a "worker" limited to a member of a trade union. Are self-employed farmers "workers" - they are not trade union members, but any of the ones I know sure "work" hard enough. How about, self employed carpenters - they can be trade union members but they "own" the business and are therefore "management".

Or on the other hand, middle and upper management salaried employees of large corporations don't own the business but often work longer hours and are subject to more stress than anyone else in the corporation - by what definition are they not workers? Is a writer such as yourself a "worker"?

In fact, as a communications consultant, do you have a definition of "work". I find that the use of the term "workers" in your writing is patronizing and simplistic to the point of becoming an obstacle to any serious debate. What other slogans of the 19th century do you want to wrap yourself in? One of the biggest obstacles to the spread of progressive socialism in this country is the reliance of so many socialists on the old concepts and the old slogans. If we really want to solve the problems of the 21st century then we will have to "think outside the box". The use of old slogans like "workers" is just another padlock on creative thinking and frankly I am getting bored by it!

Regards, Peter Kells


From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 04 August 2004 08:12 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are those who own the value of the labour of others. These are bosses. There are those whose labour-value is owned by others. These are the workers.
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 August 2004 08:19 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What about those who own the value of their own work? Like plumbers or lawyers in business for themselves.

What are they?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 04 August 2004 08:32 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Burnt out, probably.

I'm not saying that this analysis covers everything that needs to be said about work and compensation, but it is valid and does exist. It is not an artificial or outdated distinction to draw a line between those who pay the wages and those who receive them. Of course, it is not the only line that needs to be drawn.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 04 August 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of all the theorists of social class, Erik Olin Wright (1947- ) has most impressed me. Some of the characteristics of his work include the following:

· His analysis is historical and theoretical, using structural approaches from theorists such as Marx, Weber, and more recent Marxists.

· Economic forms of organization of the economy are key to understanding social structures and the organization of society. He argues that positions within the mode of production, and forms of and relationship to exploitation provide a way of describing and understanding social class.

· He focusses on positions within the society – locations and places occupied as a result of the manner in which production is organized. His analysis begins with the positions and locations, rather than the individuals who fill these positions and locations. Further, these form the basis for the social relationships people have those in other positions and locations. These relationships are part of a totality and are reasonably stable over time, with conflicting social relationships leading to change.

· Individual consciousness is related to position within the class structure. That is, the attitudes and behaviour of individual has a connection to the location they occupy within the division of labour and the contradictory locations that exist in capitalism.

Wright draws attention to a number of processes taking place in capitalism:

a. Loss of control over the labour process by workers
b. Differentiation of the functions of capital
c. Development of complex hierarchies

For Wright, there are three primary classes within the capitalist system of organization, the capitalist class, the working class and the petty bourgeoisie. The three "contradictory" class locations are

. small employers
· managers and supervisors
· semi-autonomous employees.

The analysis of Wright is similar to that of Weber – the class situation of Weber becomes the class location of Wright. Wright attaches contradiction to this, so he blends the Marxian and Weberian approaches.

So, Michelle’s example would be….”semi-autonomous employees”. Here is a longer description of that sub-class…

Semi-Autonomous Employees

These are employees that, for the most part, do not supervise others but are likely to have some autonomy in the work situation because they are professionals of have special skills or technical training. Some of these are engineers, teachers, professors, programmers, and some health professionals. These are people in occupations that have a degree of autonomy in terms of decisions related to the job, and while subject to orders, are likely to fill positions that requires their own judgment concerning production and related decisions.
The semi-autonomy is described by Wright as being
certain degree of control over their immediate conditions of work, over their immediate labour process. In such instances, the labour process has not been completely proletarianized. .... they can still be viewed as occupying residual islands of petty-bourgeois relations of production within the capitalist mode of production itself. (Giddens and Held, p. 127).
While there are always attempts by employers and managers to limit the autonomy of the semi-autonomous employees, the technical expertise of the latter does give them a degree of bargaining power. In most cases, this expertise is required, and this has allowed these workers to maintain considerable flexibility in the workplace, and considerable control over the actual work process.

My notes are all borrowed from the Synopsis for a second year Sociology course:

Sociology 250 notes

[ 04 August 2004: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
James
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5341

posted 04 August 2004 08:52 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Damn ... I like that; it has a certain ring to it.

Can I change my babble name to petty-bourgeois ???

[ 04 August 2004: Message edited by: JamesR ]


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195

posted 04 August 2004 09:06 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You folks all might be interested in checking out this older thread, too:

Class Conscious?


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 04 August 2004 10:37 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gee, I guess I'm more steeped in Marxist thought than I had imagined, because "petit-bourgeois" was the first thing I thought of when I saw Michelle's post about plumbers and lawyers.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 August 2004 10:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I knew that was the answer, I guess. However, aren't they "the dream", really? Owning your own labour, but not exploiting anyone else's? Of course, I'm talking about professionals practicing individually, as their own bosses, but not employing others.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 04 August 2004 10:45 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
However, aren't they "the dream", really?

No. That would be the yeoman farmer.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 August 2004 10:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, okay. I didn't mean the career specifically. I'm talking about owning your own labour, and living off of it. That's not the idea?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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