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I once saw a very beautiful size 0 woman begging on the streets in Mexico City in a becoming whiff of rags. Perhaps I should go back and recruit her. I could ask for a finder's fee.

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I guess it wouldn't bother me so much if I didn't hear the "disorder" comments along with it.

Good article though, I don't read those mags, as I too find them "psychotic". Unfortunately the "teen" mags also have those sized women as the "norm". What an unhealthy society.

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Trinitty ]

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Mags like Vogue don't help.

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They are the largest culprits in this entire body image thing. In fact, I think it could be argued, they created it.

It is not for nothing they are constantly looking for the latest tennaged, skinny model to grace their pages. It is not for nothing that among their most covered topics is dieting. It is not for nothing that "diet pills" can be purchased among the ads near the back of all these magazines.

And they start early with Seventeen and other glossy fashion and music mags geared to preteen girls.

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But I'll venture that it's far more socially stigmatizing to be overweight than underweight. After all, we don't have legions of young women killing themselves to be fat.

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This is exactly the sort of attitude I'm talking about. As far as I'm concerned being extremely underweight is very similar to being overweight but no one wants to hear about it. Underweight people have to put up with comments, looks, and assumptions of eating disorders but if we complain we only hear that it could be worse... we could be fat.

Most people would never think of telling a person that they look fat to their faces but that's not so if you;re skinny. People can be very insensitive and rude without even thinking twice about it.

I'm not trying to say that underweight people have it worse off than overweight people. I agree that there are many more health problems that come with being overweight which I am lucky not to have to worry about. It is easy for me to be active and I'm lucky that I can eat what I want.

Though I get looks, comments, etc all of the time if I'm dressed for it, I'm not deeply bothered by it. I don't go home and eat a bucket of ice cream trying to "fill out" so I can "fit-in", as opposed to an overweight woman feeling that she needs to purge, starve and run around the block.

When women snarl at me "Do you EAT?!" -yes total strangers- I simply ignore them, they don't hurt my feelings or make me feel bad about myself, all that's running through my head is that those who make those comments are 1) Rude, and 2) Jealous.

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overwieght people have it worse IMO.

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I agree...

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In what universe could this starved, skeletal woman be considered attractive?

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dee has a point about being thin... It can sometimes create a barrier between you and other women. If the conversation turns to diet, nutrition and health issues, you really have to think twice about joining the conversation and if you do, put the self-edit on high. If you say just the wrong thing, or even imply that you understand body image issues, you can get bashed pretty severely.

And many excessively thin women do have body issues. I know people who were teased mercilessly as teenagers for being overweight, and I was teased mercilessly for being small and thin, and late to develop. It's interesting, an old friend and I were chatting about our high school experiences, being opposites in terms of physique, and we both concluded that the pain was the same.

If we women could just accept all shapes and sizes and stop being so damned competitive....

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This is exactly the sort of attitude I'm talking about.

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... but comments like this can be hurtful and would never be accepted, for example, by most of the people on this board, if an equal comment was directed towards an overweight person. That's all I am trying to point out.

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You criticize my 'attitude', yet you agree with what I've said, that overweight people are more less socially acceptible than underweight, when it's said by another poster. What's that all about?

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When I said that I agree that overweight people have things more difficult I was referring to health problems and the pressure to overexercise or undereat.

The attitude that I have a problem with is that (very) underweight people such as myself are expected to listen to comments that they are disgusting, unattractive, and skeletal without complaint. Would you ever tell a woman, no matter how obese, that she was fat, ugly, or unsexy to her face?

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Would you ever tell a woman, no matter how obese, that she was fat, ugly, or unsexy to her face?

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Personally, no. But I've witnessed other people attacking my closest friend (a 3X) without provocation about her weight. People often say really awful things to obese women, even worse than what they say to underweight women. Trust me. I've seen both sides.

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Let it go, dee....

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Other than symptomatic manifestations of illness we look that way we look due to the lifestyle we lead. We live that lifestyle because for the most part we enjoy it.

If you are fat or skinny the opinions of others should be interesting but hardly a basis to judge your own worth on. What's more, is that you would be better to spend your time with the things that bring you happiness rather than killing yourself to become what others think you should be.

What ever you are, try to keep healthy and fit.
Being happy will make you live longer than being miserable and the benefits are great.

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The attitude that I have a problem with is that (very) underweight people such as myself are expected to listen to comments that they are disgusting, unattractive, and skeletal without complaint.

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Would you ever tell a woman, no matter how obese, that she was fat, ugly, or unsexy to her face?

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It's damaging to the self-esteem and health and body image of millions of girls and
women of all shapes and sizes.

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Which is a good argument not to be or become sheep. Example, if I called you a goose, would that make you a goose? Or would you thinking that if I say you're a goose, you must be one, make you the goose?

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A good lesson to learn here on Babble is to use critical thinking. You can see people promote this idea almost everywhere here. So why does this idea fall apart when someone makes an unrequested opinion of what you (not you personaly) are or should be?

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Because we're human, not Vulcan.

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[edited to add smartass comment]

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

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Naturally thin women, which you say you are one of, can't be compared to women who are emaciated to the point of losing muscle mass (like the model I mentioned). Those women can't lead active healthy lives...

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This is exactly the point. Thin to the point of unhealthy is glorified in the mainstream media, and that's not something that works toward healthy attitudes in mainstream society. We need to start glorifying healthy, fit bodies (and I don't mean bodies that work out 5 hours a day, either).

And it's absolutely true that extreme thinness, natural or otherwise, isn't especially healthy. I've been a runner for many years, and at one point lost a lot of weight due to extreme stress. I couldn't work out, my endurance level really dropped, and I just felt crappy all the time. But it's often easier to correct to a healthy level, which is much harder when you are obese.

So let's acknowledge each other's challenges and be who we need to be.

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(PS - VVM, my sweetie says to tell you that thin gals are just as snuggly as curvaceous ones. So there! )

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I'm quite willing to take applications from ladies of various body types who wanna prove their snuggle-superiority. Prove me wrong!

Applicants who are accepted into the study will enjoy a night of snuggles with one VV MediaBoy, and receive a ranking or their snuggliness in the morning. Call 1-900-SNUGGLE to apply.

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Victor Von MediaBoy ]

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

If women dressed for men, women would take fashion tips from transvestites, who, being men, know how to dress for men.

It's a crazy, mixed up world, but stay with me, I think I'm going somewhere with this.

So where does this "waif" look come from? If you browse the porno sites aimed at men, or leaf through a Penthouse, Playboy or Hustler, you don't often find models who look like "waifs". We find the classical shape still in evidence. Perhaps not quite as "Rubenesque" (by today's standards) as what we found with 40's and 50's sex symbols, but certainly, there are no waifs.

We find the "waif" look in magazines aimed at women, often published by women, for women. Maybe a case can be made that the fashion scene is dominated by men whose taste in women might lead them to choose models that look a lot like male teens, but it seems to me it's some function of the female mind.

I don't think I'm terribly a-typical amoung heterosexual males. I've found myself attracted to quite a varriation on body shapes/sizes over the years. Yes, sometimes a very thin woman will turn my head, and yes, sometimes a large woman will turn my head.

Wherever the "waif" look came from, and whatever it's pointed to, I really doubt it has anything to do with the heterosexual male mind.

The standards are timeless. We look for signs of health in each other. Shiny hair, clear skin, symetrical features. Weight probably varries as to how it's seen health wise. In previous times, a few extra pounds on men and women bespoke of better health and prosperity. This has changed a bit, but the "waif" look is deffinately a sexual turn off. It goes beyond just being thin, (one can be very thin and still radiate health) but requires blackened eyes..... in short, the "herion" look-- deffinately not something that inspires sexual desire.

I don't see how this ties in with sexuality, so that's what makes me think it springs from some other psychological function.

I think we all resent feeling pushed to look a certain way. I don't have abs of steel, and frankly, I don't have the time or inclination to get them. I would resent anyone telling me I had to have them to fit in.

I think what we have to do, on a personal basis, is let people close to us know they are okay, that they don't have to look a certain way to be loved.

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

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Wherever the "waif" look came from, and whatever it's pointed to, I really doubt it has anything to do with the heterosexual male mind.

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Or, are designer clothes so pricey, and there are just enough women to buy them that it's enough for the designers?

This is something people would do well to know for a fact rather than searching for who they are through profit biased sources.

Free your mind, the rest will follow.

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I can see that to an extent, but if women who are not "hangers" for these clothes either don't buy them, or are unhappy with them, isn't that self defeating, in a business sort of way

Or, are designer clothes so pricey, and there are just enough women to buy them that it's enough for the designers?

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I don't know, but at the level of so-called haute couture, it's not really about selling clothes. A designer might sell at most 50 copies of something you see on the runway. It's closer to some kind of art form than to the clothing business.

But such is -- or was -- the prestige of haute couture that the designers who make ready-to-wear stuff, who of course are occasionally (and increasingly) the same designers, follow along in the slipstream -- and so on down the line.

Nowadays, of course, this hierarchy is breaking down somewhat. But it's still recognizably there, and a significant number of women, apparently, take it seriously enough that they'll go to great lengths to fit into original or knock-off versions of this "prestigious" stuff, made for maybe 2% of the female population, rather than demand something more sensible.

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So where does this "waif" look come from? If you browse the porno sites aimed at men, or leaf through a Penthouse, Playboy or Hustler, you don't often find models who look like "waifs". We find the classical shape still in evidence. Perhaps not quite as "Rubenesque" (by today's standards) as what we found with 40's and 50's sex symbols, but certainly, there are no waifs.

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Are you out of your mind?!!!! Do you actually think the women in the mags you are noting are healthy? Or even remotely real?

The "waif" thing may not be in evidence, but most of those women are not a healthy weight. They've got boobs all right, FAKE ONES!!!!!!!!!

Got nothing to do with healthy body weight.

You think any of those ladies have 1950s classic figures? HAH!!!! Watch a Jayne Mansfield movie -- the gal had an ass to match the breasts! Women who have big breasts tend to have hips.

(There's a wonderful monologue done by Rosie O'Donnel in a film called "Beautiful Girls" on the butt/boob conundrum and the male view.... I highly recommend it.)

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But when does an individual whose personal perception about thier 'body' become a self-esteem issue?

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When it's sold to them.

The consumer culture of the industrialized world markets powerful images of what it takes to be successful and brags "our products can give you this!" Look at any media form and ask yourself, do these images/ideas represent me? Do they represent the real world? Do advertisements have anything to do with the products they sell?

Our media and consumer driven society makes it clear that if you ain't their idea of perfect then you ain't good enough to participate in society.

I bet Ally McBeal owns shares at Fitness World!

(Edited to make me sound smarter.)

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]

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There's a wonderful monologue done by Rosie O'Donnel in a film called "Beautiful Girls" on the butt/boob conundrum and the male view.... I highly recommend it.

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As far as it being a heterosexual guy thing, some men will always like very thin women, some will be into large women. I was relatively slim until I was about 30ish, and am heavier now (especially since my last pregnancy). What I've noticed is that it doesn't matter whether I'm a skinny broad or a fat chick - men are still attracted to me. Whether I feel attractive is dependent almost entirely on how I feel about myself, not about how I look.

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(Certainly all rich and handsome men who can have their pick, always choose thin women)

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Trophy wives, and the gals in men's magazines, is another matter. In the first case, the trophy wife has to project a certain image, sexy but "class", if she looks like Anna Nicole Smith she is seen as a lower-class golddigger. As for men's magazines, I find the body type they now favour verges on paedophilia. Many of us who are busty (as I am) got the boobs a few years before the accompanying "child-bearing" hips, of the Mediterranean mama type...

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Rebecca - where on earth do you find men (I mean educated, intellectual, politicised men between say 40 and 60...) who are attracted to women who are not exactly skinny? Or over 30?

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The most successful cougars are those that married well and got huge divorce settlements. Lesser Cougars were feminists who clawed their way to the top and made their own money...Species characteristics include a penchant for home decorating, an interest in dogs (the only other species they can live with), an avid consumption of home products such as tinfoil and Cheez Whiz, and a limited interest in technology...They have a high fat diet but are usually in shape because of sheer genetics and extensive shopping, dinner party planning and traveling. They often wear clothes that they're a bit too old for such as Spandex and high heels. They dye their hair and wear lots of makeup and jewelry

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Also, I'll sometimes point out a chick that I think the group will appreciate, even if I don't think she's all that hot. Keeps the boys distracted as I steal their french fries.

Some guys will berate you if your vision of babeitude isn't the same as theirs, but these tend to be the same dorks who have to be right about EVERYTHING, so their opinions are rarely taken seriously.

Furthermore, If I spot a specimen of babeliciousness that I KNOW the other fellers won't appreciate (philistines that they are), why bother pointing her out?

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Victor Von MediaBoy ]

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"Hot" is sold to them too in the media and I often wonder if the rolling of eyes and comments are more for show than for actual appreciation.

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I've been around guys who looked at me with just the faintest suspicion if I wasn't so enthusiastic about some "hottie" walking by, as though I were (in the phrase they'd undoubtedly use, and not in a good way) "queer or something."

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And I really don't like the stick-and-melon look, for the record. Give me hips or give me death, I say!

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WILL YOU MARRY ME?

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O dear skadie... ... terribly sorry, but I'm spoken for these three-and-a-half, nearly four years. Actually, it's closer to 6, but the lovely Maria decided to make an honest man of me back in Sept. 1998.

Although ideally we'd all rise above it and move on without dramatics, this crap is pounded into the heads of girls and women from the day we are born. Shaking off that kind of conditioning takes a bit more than a "tut-tut - know thyself, loser" to overcome...

And it has a greater impact then simply on our health and self-esteem. It impacts our success in life as well. Studies have shown (I hate that phrase) that "attractive" women are better liked, make more money, and are generally far better off than "unattractive" ones. It's a prejudice issue, just like racism.

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"attractive" women are better liked, make more money, and are generally far better off than "unattractive" ones.

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Have any of you seen the French film Too Beautiful For You? The protagonist, played by Gerard Depardieu, leaves his drop-dead gorgeous (thin, of course) wife for his new secretary, who has a completely different body type (large-breasted-and-hipped), and who does not have the face, or fashion sense, of a Vogue model. She's not even in the same socio-economic class. What was so memorable about the film for me was how they lingered on the way Depardieu gradually fell in love with this woman, despite his bewilderment since he supposedly already had the "perfect" partner. She was shot as sensually as the wife, from Depardieu's loving point of view, which made it relatively easy for the audience to find her beautiful, too. Although the whole film didn't impress me, I can remember those love scenes as distinctly as any involving official female sex icons. These days I can think of dozens of foreign films starring actresses who don't match official sex icon status, but who I find stunningly beautiful. (Eric Rohmer's adult heroines come to mind). If I were a parent, I'd want to expose my son and/or daughter to foreign films so they could experience the sight of a variety of bodies up there on the screen.

The Depardieu film was a remarkable experience for a twenty-something guy (at the time) because it validated my rather inclusive appreciation of female beauty, which at that time I used to keep pretty much to myself. I had a similar epiphany while watching The Crying Game, which allowed me, as a straight guy, to vicariously experience what it would be like to desire/love someone of the same sex--in spite of the initial bewilderment, and socially constructed aversion.

I guess in Montreal we'd never say that.

Josiane Balasko is a fine actress, who has done a wide range of roles. Another French film that would never get remade in North America is Romuald and Juliette, a comedy about race and class in which the black cleaning-woman heroine is also not a Halle Berry model type - she is a very attractive woman, but with a powerful build. Trying to think of the actress's name...

It is true that there is a wider range of body types and simply not always such plasticised beauty in European films than in Hollywood ones, funny in a way because in Paris anyway few people are overweight (that isn't as true in smaller cities and the country).

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Another French film that would never get remade in North America is Romuald and Juliette, a comedy about race and class in which the black cleaning-woman heroine is also not a Halle Berry model type - she is a very attractive woman, but with a powerful build. Trying to think of the actress's name...

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I've seen this movie, but had forgotten the title. However, the Internet Movie Data Base is your friend...

And, as is a nice thing - once they get to know you, they don't charge you if your movie is a couple of hours late.

Oh, and four nights means four nights. That means if I rent a movie on Monday, I have it Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday nights and have to return it by 4 pm on Friday, rather than Thursday by midnight like Blockbuster.

I called Classic Video and asked them if they have Too Beautiful for You, and he said that it's in his computer but hasn't been rented for 4 years, so he thinks it probably slipped through the cracks, or wasn't returned or something. Too bad! I also asked about Zuckerbaby and Romuald and Juliette and he didn't have those either.

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Are you out of your mind?!!!! Do you actually think the women in the mags you are noting are healthy? Or even remotely real?

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No, I don't, and my taste in porn does not include those publications for the very reasons you point out. I didn't say they were paragons of health, merely using the example to say that the "waif" or "heroin chic" look wasn't coming from a heterosexual male desire.

That is what it is all about isn't it? Eating disorders and an abnormal desire to be skinny is a form of power over your own body. Especially, if you have felt powerless in your own life.

The babbler that said that the skinny models in ads are directed to women is bang-on. I think we see them and we think wow that girl has control...(power) We think the opposite when we see obese people.

I have a different story to tell. When I was a teenager, I was "FAT". As I got into my twenties, I progressively lost weight to the point that I'm considered "slim", so I've straddled both sides of the fence. (the weight loss was enduced by crazy dieting either!)

And, it seems to me that whatever your body size, the response you get from which ever gender turns your crank, is in proportion to how good you feel about yourself.

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: kamiks ]

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: kamiks ]

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But that sparks yet another question. Why is it that size in men is considered strong while in women it's considered weak? Why can't a big woman brag about how much she bench press say, and recieve the deserved kudos? Many men wear their weight like a badge while women obsess about it and WANT to look like a weakling.

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A gay friend of mine once opined that female fashion models were selected by gay fashion designers because of their resemblance to young boys. I'm intrigued by the possibility, but not convinced.

Regarding size and women, the WWF/WWE may be making great strides towards making big (muscular) women attractive and desireable. Admittedly there is no female equivalent to King Kong Bundy or Andre the Giant (aRoused reveals his age and the last time he paid close attention to pro wrestling), but there seems to be a spate of big, muscular, strong women appearing not only in the ring alongside or parallel to the men, but in the pages of such as Playboy.

Okay, okay, so Playboy isn't exactly a popular feminist magazine. But, I stand behind the comments above by Tommy_Paine IIRC, to the effect that the women in Playboy were more indicative of the thrust (pardon the term) of male standards of physical beauty.

Simply put: the women in Vogue are, well, nasty-looking. Scrawny. And not in a good way (spoken by someone who's self-described as 'scrawny'). The women in Playboy are idealized, and methinks some of them may spend a large amount of time and effort on maintaining that ideal shape, but they're not necessarily fake (as has been imputed), and they're not unhealthy by the standards of fashion modelling.

This is not an incitement to go out and emulate Playboy centerfolds, but you knew that already. This is a comment that 1) fame and recognition for women in the popular press is not contingent on being unhealthily thin, and 2) Given the 'popular' part of 'popular press', it may not be a pan-societal trend towards emaciated women.

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(the weight loss "was" enduced by crazy dieting either!)

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That should be "WAS NOT" I've never dieted in my life!!

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Originally posted by 'lance:

And I really don't like the stick-and-melon look, for the record. Give me hips or give me death, I say!

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Originally posted by audra trower williams:
Did you search babble for the word "melon", Gir?

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Originally posted by lagatta:
As for men's magazines, I find the body type they now favour verges on paedophilia. Many of us who are busty (as I am) got the boobs a few years before the accompanying "child-bearing" hips, of the Mediterranean mama type...

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I think the 'paedophilia' comment is getting somewhere. To me, the images we are given smack more of a Peter Pan syndrome than an issue of straight-up body size. The androgyny common to models is evidence of this fact as well. Have a look at early teenagers, even those already well into puberty - there is often markedly less 'sexual differentiation' (at least in appearance) at that stage.

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Originally posted by skadie:
Well Michelle, I guess we'll never know and neither will 'lance. *sigh*

But that sparks yet another question. Why is it that size in men is considered strong while in women it's considered weak? Why can't a big woman brag about how much she bench press say, and recieve the deserved kudos? Many men wear their weight like a badge while women obsess about it and WANT to look like a weakling.

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"The Stress Diet", I reply. "Get a couple of family members to off themselves within a few months of each other, and the pounds melt away."

Honestly.

The world has gone carb-mad (or anti-carb-mad, if you prefer), they really have.

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Originally posted by Mandos:
Spoilsport.

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Originally posted by Rebecca West:
I prefer the term "humourless feminist harpie", thankyouverymuch.

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ITYM: "Feminazi".

HTH, HAND.