I have this
weird phenomenon in my life lately and it's really starting to grate
on my nerves. It seems like many of the men I know want to talk to me
about their views on porn, and the reason that I find that weird is
that I'm fairly vocal about not being pro-porn. I don't have an
agenda, I don't go around trying to convince people that I'm right or
anything, I just am. In light of my experiences in the sex trade, I
just don't believe that it's an empowering place to be. And it seems
to me that the degradation that occurs in that industry just gets
more and more vile. Once upon a time (like in 1972) there might have
been some porn that wouldn't have made me feel awful about it. But
getting back to the point, I'm getting extremely pissed off by the
fact that so many guys seem to think that if they can get me (a
leftist feminist) to admit that porn usage is okay then they're
vindicated or some shit like that. Maybe that's not their intention.
Maybe I'm supposed to giggle and talk about how porn turns me on or
something, I'm not sure. Anyway, upon talking to one of these guys
yesterday, it was apparent that he was almost busting at the seams to
tell me about this lapdance he'd bought on the weekend. And when I
said, "Gee, if it's so great, why are you telling me? Shouldn't you
call up your mom?" I got treated to the usual, "You're a prude" etc.

And I tried to start a discussion about the "cult of porn" on another
board and made it clear in my opening post that I wasn't looking to
discuss the merits or drawbacks of porn, just of the assimilative
aspects to it. And man oh man, the floodgates opened, and I was a
prudish conservative pariah inside of five minutes. I had one person
stick up for me, who happens to be a pro-porn woman I'd gone the
rounds with on the same board, and I love her to death for that. I
don't CARE that she likes porn, that's great if it works for her, she
doesn't push her agenda on me and we just don't go there.

We have discussed this on babble before, and several women have talked about how they've dated leftist men only to find that what they really wanted was to go fight oppression during the day, but to come home to a nice traditional woman who will coddle him at night. Didn't auntie answer a letter one time from a woman who was living with an activist man who was too busy saving the world to do any of the domestic work at home?

I think the same dynamic might be going on with men who get overly defensive at a feminist critique of porn. "Sure, I'm all for feminism and women's rights and all, but whoa-a-a, hold it there, don't be dissing my porn! What are you, some kind of ball-busting bitch?"

Be that as it may, it's perfectly okay to have strong, unwavering opinions about certain things, and the strength of someone's desire to change your unwavering opinion shouldn't be an obstacle to your telling them to go to hell.

Vis a vis the porn issue, I think the problem lies in a conflict between the idea of pornography, its purpose, and the reality of it.

I don't think most reasonable people will argue that the overwhelming majority of mainstream pornography is exploitive, sexist garbage. If they do, if they consider a critique of that particular kind of pornography prudish, then they're rationalizing in a way that has more broad-based destructive potential than simple self-delusion would entail. Disobedient, if I understand you properly, this is the behavior that you find, quite reasonably, disturbing and frustrating.

The idea of pornography (call it erotica if you wish) as tool of sexual arousal, exploration and fantasy - as well as simple entertainment - should be entirely separate from the exploitive and demeaning porn churned out by an industry driven not by art or ideal but by greed.

All industries driven by greed are by nature exploitive, as are those individuals who willingly participate in them and gain monetarily by that participation. That includes the highly paid skin trade workers - mostly women, but not the poorly paid, exploited and drug-addicted people - mostly women - who are vulnerable, victimized and horribly used.

I think if people were more willing to separate the unwholesome, unhealthy and exploitive mainstream from the erotic and artistic ideal only made and distributed in a small, non-mainstream way, to distinguish between the two and properly assign scathing criticism where appropriate, and to refrain from labelling and compartmentalizing people as either prudes or immoral and self-serving libertines, we might find more agreement.

Edited to add: Michelle, you've really succintly echoed my experience with some men. Left does always translate as pro-women or pro-feminist. I'm not a rigid dogmatist who insists that everyone must live every single aspect of their politics, but c'mon. If you aren't even willing to entertain the notion that you've got serious P&E babbage when it comes to treating the women in your life in an unequitable way, then you're a jerk and a hypocrite.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

I'm of the opinion that things won't change until a positive, desirable alternative is presented (and then adopted). If we were better able to categorize Porn using the sort of distinctions you set up Rebecca, perhaps we might be able to protest, boycott, etc. more effectively. Perhaps even those who would call us prudes for our dissent would see that it's not anti-sex or pro-censorship attitudes fuelling a bid to rid the world of porn altogether, but rather a valid and important drive to simply change the industry and its product so that people aren't so badly exploited and insulted because of it. And maybe that would help--maybe they'd make better choices about the kind of porn they consume or defend or whatever.

And obviously, there are already categories (ie. soft porn, erotica, hard core, etc.), but, to me, they're so slippery and poorly defined that they aren't of much use so far. Are there particular criteria in use already? Is this something that would be useful to think about?

I've gone out with men who've confided that they have gone to strip clubs and were totally comfortable with the experience, or liked skin magazines and it really lowered my opinion of them. Often to the point of having to wash my hair the next time they asked me out.

People who really know me find the idea that people think I'm prudish quite a scream because I tend to be an outrageous flirt most of the time.
Porn just isn't sex to me, so I'm always baffled when people make that leap. I'm not pro-censorship (not after what happened with MacKinnon and Dworkin in Canada) and I think laws regarding obscenity could seriously hamper gay rights and feminism on the whole. It's a damn fine line.

I think Lima Bean might be onto something, there really isn't any criteria set out for determining what is hard core and what isn't, and that's a valid discussion. I always feel so vague when I try to explain that while Playboy is okay to me, Hustler makes my hair stand on end. It has to do with intent I guess, but whenever I try to bring that up, I get "free speech" crap lobbed at me.

Echoing what Zoot said, if I met a guy who is more than happy to detail his zeal for porn, I'm inclined to find that really tacky. Like he's waving a big red flag and shouting, "Everything I learned about sex, I learned from porn!"

Like disobedient, I have a much bigger problem with Hustler than with Playboy. I think it's because the latter isn't really as inclined to violence.

Anyway. Getting a lap dance, IMHO, is the same as hiring a prostitute. It's just a matter of degree. We look down on johns; I don't see why men who get lap dances should be treated differently. "Really? You paid a woman to touch you? You stud, you."

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

In high school, as all the guys were getting fake IDs, they used to go to the strip clubs at lunch "for the buffet". They'd come back all smug and full of disrespectful and ugly humour, casting sideways, wiseass looks at us girls. Then they'd laugh when any of us suggested that they were disgusting pigs. It was a no-win situation for all of us females around there. I felt pretty gross around those guys.

So, you mention violence, Smith, but what are some other differences between Playboy and Hustler? What makes one more palatable than the other?

edited to add: very sneaky and wise titling for this thread! So far it seems to have stumped all those stinky boys!

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

That being said, I am against censorship. As an artist, and especially as an artist who uses images that may contain nudity, I would find it hypocritical to demand that some expressions, whether I like or approve of them or not, be stifled while mine is allowed to see the light of day.

It comes down to discerning what I find tasteful and of value. I don't like velvet Elvis paintings, either, but demanding they be banned is not the answer.

The interesting thing about the "porn" debate is that Little Sisters has been at the forefront of the debate for freedom of expression because some erotica is worse than others to custom officials. Apparently anything to do with gay or lesbian sex is outside the limits.

If we could develop a workable set of criteria for categorizing the different types of porn and erotica (including art that portrays nudity, I guess), we could also develop some sort of scheme by which distribution is more tightly controlled, but not necessarily prohibited. The criteria should not only measure the content and presentation of the specimen at hand, but also as many facets of its production as possible. It might be fair, then, to deem porn produced under certain conditions illegal, or to dictate that porn with certain attributes should be distributed through channels/means other than on the shelf with all the other magazines or movies etc...

A personal example -- Some years ago, I was part of a group of photographers that put up a gallery exhibition. Two of the photos that I contributed were nude studies. I did not feel they were erotic, in fact felt that one of the two was asexual, playing with the idea of body and ambiguity, the other was about image vs "naked" reality.

Anyway, somebody else may read something erotic and/or sexual into the photos -- and some did. Eroticism is in the eye of the beholder.

I find talk of "monitoring" and such troublesome, because I want the freedom to explore issues in the most effective way possible. Maybe that crosses lines, maybe it doesn't... Depends on who you talk to.

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Apparently anything to do with gay or lesbian sex is outside the limits.

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I think that any man or woman who goes to clubs for sex shows is a pig.

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Who decides what rating a new movie should get?

I understand what you're saying, Zoot, and I agree that censorship is undesirable, but working on the audience while the crap is still available won't prove very productive.

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Well...who decides what is and isn't hate speech?

Who decides what rating a new movie should get?

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Movie ratings -- a board of appointees, put together by the provincial gov't.

Hate speech... Well, let's start with the cops. Who are the same guys who make judgements about what pornography is going too far and what isn't. Wonderful job they're doing so far, eh?

Edited to add: The last thing I want is some bone-headed, self-righteous civil servant telling me what I can and cannot do in the area of artistic expression.

Let me make one thing clear -- There is no way we will see porn go away with our generation. We have a culture where many males and some females see images that are degrading to other humans as sexy and cool.

Censorship only drives this crap underground, and has never proven to be effective in diminishing porn.

I'm thinking we need to work on better media literacy for the young 'uns. That's my theory.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

I'm not for abolishing porn. I'm not talking about censorship.

I'm talking about establishing a set of guidelines for the conscientious creation/production/distribution of porn and erotica for those who might wish to pursue such a thing. And I'm suggesting that it might be valuable to have some sort of scheme or schedule for categorizing material within the genre of porn/erotica so that people know what they're getting and so that distribution of certain kinds of porn can be limited to places and venues that children are certain not to go, where women who don't want to don't have to see them...

And again I ask: Who would set the guidelines? The same civil servants and politicians who set the guidelines now? Who else would you have in mind and what authority do they have to do this?

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I understand what you're saying, Zoot, and I agree that censorship is undesirable, but working on the audience while the crap is still available won't prove very productive.

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I have often thought of that too.

But there is another way, and I think Zoot touched upon it earlier. Women with any feminist leanings whatsoever, and who do not want to support the sexist crap that the porn industry churns out can indirectly affect it - by being busy washing our hair when a guy who brags about watching porn and buying sex asks us out on a date. And by telling him exactly why we're not attracted to him.

Sure, we'll get a bunch of "you're anti-sex" crap. But there's an easy answer to that, and I think it was Smith who hinted at that one. You can just say, "Sorry, I'm not interested in dating someone who is so inept with women that he has to buy sex." Or, "Sorry, I'm not turned on by men who think porno sex is good sex."

I mean, after all, let's think about what porno sex is all about. If the woman is really lucky she gets, what, about 30 seconds of oral sex performed on her? Maybe. The rest is her giving him a blowjob, and then having him bang her with practically no body contact except his dick and her cunt while she fakes orgasms the whole time. And then finally - he shoots his load all over her and she sticks her hands in it and licks her fingers like it's such a turn-on. And of course, that's the real climax.

Oh, not to mention the endearing "You like that, you fucking cunt? You wannit harder, bitch?" "Oh yes, I'm your bitch! Nail me!"

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But there is another way, and I think Zoot touched upon it earlier. Women with any feminist leanings whatsoever, and who do not want to support the sexist crap that the porn industry churns out can indirectly affect it - by being busy washing our hair when a guy who brags about watching porn and buying sex asks us out on a date. And by telling him exactly why we're not attracted to him.

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Great idea. I wish all young women could approach men that way because sexist men would learn quicker if they had no one but themselves to have sex with.

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I guess my question is, "How do you find peace in a
society that strives to make you just like everyone else?"

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I take pride in my individuality. It's taken me awhile to get there (and many battles), but really who is society and why do I care what they think anymore? Not to dismiss society's values, but they constantly need a crtitical look.

Porn by its' very definition means the degradation of the sexual experience. Why should ANYONE be made to feel they have to defend their right for their image not to be portrayed as a sub-human?

I thought at least here, in the Feminism forum on babble, we could have some sort of conversation about the different characteristics of the different types of porn/erotica/art. Even if only to give ourselves a vocabulary, some ammunition, to use in the kinds of confrontations suggested above.

But really, I don't even think that those confrontations are any kind of solution. In that scenario, women are still objectified and degraded and insulted and maybe twice over--once in the films/magazines etc. and then once by the man who hits on us and then ridicules and insults us for turning him down on those grounds. Telling men who consume this kind of porn that we don't want to date them isn't really going to make them stop watching the porn, isn't ging to make it go away or suddenly become more respectful or realistic and it isn't going to make them suddenly realize the error of their ways and become feminists. I don't think that it's a sufficient solution. It puts the responsibility for that garbage in our hands, instead of in the hands of the creeps who make it and sell it.

I'm not sure why I get so worked up about this. It seems so hopeless and inevitable. Is it really so unreasonable, though, to think that some of the crap that's out there should just be plain illegal, that it should be a criminal act to produce the kind of misogynist, violent, horrible material that makes up so much of the porn industry? Am I all alone in thinking that it just shouldn't be condoned at all, by anyone--least of all those of us who it so negatively impacts? Is everybody resigned to the belief that it's completely beyond our control to do something about it?

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

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But does that mean that we just forget about it? Wash our hands of it because we can't figure out a way to make it better?

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No, but what I'm suggesting is that maybe we need to work in other directions, because the direction you've suggested is the one that generally gets used, and it isn't practicable. Those questions need to be addressed, and yet, really, there is no answer. So we spend a lot of energy chasing our tails, and it's all the same as it ever was.

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But really, I don't even think that those confrontations are any kind of solution. In that scenario, women are still objectified and degraded and insulted and maybe twice over--once in the films/magazines etc. and then once by the man who hits on us and then ridicules and insults us for turning him down on those grounds.

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I think most women go on the defensive, and it's not really necessary. When hit on, I generally tell them, "Geez, little man, you're so out of your league. Go buy a plastic dolly to go with that magazine."

I'm not on the defensive, I'm assertive. I've explained that I'm worth more. His derisive comments afterwards? Laugh. If he can't get your back up, he can't win. If he calls you a prude, declare, loudly so all in the area can hear, that it's sour grapes, that he's overheated 'cause he can't get it on with a real woman. Ridicule goes both ways, and you can turn tables.

Ultimately, maybe that guy won't stop using porn. But you've given him something to think about. And the more of us out there who give them something to think about, the more the attitudes are going to shift.

And like I said, this is going to take a very long time. Using porn is a cultural norm, and that doesn't get modified overnight. We've got to work hardest on the kids, now, because they're still malleable. I know it seems like the responsibility is on us, but really, who else is willing to take it up?

And as we live in this society, is it not our responsibility to stand up and say that this is not acceptable? Expecting the purveyors of porn to do it for us is not realistic -- this is their bread and butter. If it sells, they'll market it. Awful, but it's a reality.

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Am I all alone in thinking that it just shouldn't be condoned at all, by anyone--least of all those of us who it so negatively impacts? Is everybody resigned to the belief that it's completely beyond our control to do something about it?

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Is it really so unreasonable, though, to think that some of the crap that's out there should just be plain illegal...

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[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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Oh, not to mention the endearing "You like that, you fucking cunt? You wannit harder, bitch?" "Oh yes, I'm your bitch! Nail me!"

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Lots of couples talk like that during particularly aggressive sessions of lovemaking. And believe it or not, a lot of women enjoy that kind of dominant/submissive roleplaying once in awhile.

I don't believe in making hate speech illegal either. It's counterproductive in the long run.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

Why should it be protected?

Some years ago when wet t shirt contests were popular the Sun would have some stupid picture plastered on the front page pretty much every day.

One day they showed a picture of a wet willie contest.

You really couldnt see anything just some joker in his underwear getting water poured over him by a couple of bikini clad young ladies.

The phones rang off the hook the letters poured in the anger was intense and it was 90 per cent male.

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But what do we gain from this stuff?

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(I'm still only talking about the trashy, violent, misogynist porn--not any of the other stuff you've thrown into the discussion, Andy)

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Maybe you can define more clearly what you mean by "violent porn," and point out other examples of things that should be censored that aren't already illegal in Canada.

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Why should it be protected?

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As long as this kind of thing is in existence, women will never be equal to men in respect or power. There's just no way.

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What earthmother says about this sort of sexism rings true loud and clear for me. It's a mechanism of the status quo. It's a major factor in things staying the way they are.

And if I had a stronger vocabulary on the subject I would try to define the violent porn I'm talking about. As it stands, I can only say that any depiction of sex that involves physical force, insulting language, or even intimations of a lack of consent are most likely to fit into the category as I imagine it.

It's a sad thing when our right to freedom of expression is used to degrade and belittle another person.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

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As long as women are reduced to tits and asses on all the billboards, magazine covers, and page2s of the newspaper, there is no way possible that we'll be treated with the respect that we deserve when it comes to crunch time.

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As it stands, I can only say that any depiction of sex that involves physical force, insulting language, or even intimations of a lack of consent are most likely to fit into the category as I imagine it.

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It's a sad thing when our right to freedom of expression is used to degrade and belittle anybody.

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[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

I was trying to start a conversation about such definitions earlier in this very thread and everyone cried censorship and here we are.

So how about we go back to what we were originally talking about? Let Andy talk into the void about his porn issues.

How do we deal with men who feel that we feminists absolutely have to acknowledge their porn/prostitute habits? How do we get those men to understand that when a woman watches porn that is degrading to women, that it doesn't necessarily mean she is "liberated"?

This reminds me of the complaints I've heard from second-wave feminists. They decided they wanted to be in control of their bodies and not feel ashamed of being sexual creatures - they wanted to get out of the whole madonna-whore dichotomy and just be normal, fully-functioning, autonomous sexual beings.

And what did anti-feminist men do? They used it to their advantage, of course, and instead of trying to coerce women into having sex with them by telling them they'd marry them, they tried to coerce women by playing on newly formed feminist consciousness - "Hey, baby, aren't you liberated? Liberated women fuck lots of guys - what are you a prude? A throwback to the Victorian era?"

And that's what we are often faced with regarding guys who feel they absolutely MUST get us women to be enthusiastic about their porn habit. "Hey, what are you, a prude? Are you a fascist, trying to censor our expression?"

I mean, look at Andy here. Most of us on this thread are against censoring porn. And yet, here's Andy going on about how his right to watch women getting gang-banged and called names is the cornerstone of democracy.

I agree that freedom of speech is essential, and I also agree that censoring porn will not make it go away - it will drive it underground.

But the question this thread is posing isn't whether or not we should censor porn. It's how women who are disgusted by their male colleagues and friends who feel a desperate need to have their feminist friends validate their porn usage can handle themselves in those situations.

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I had a feeling Andy would come in and turn this into a ball-busting-feminists-promoting-censorship argument.

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And here we have Lima Bean explicitly saying she is anti-porn and pro-censorship. That's the only reason I entered this thread.

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Most of us on this thread are against censoring porn.

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...if you want to use the public space to promote your products you must live up to a decency standard set by the citizens.

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[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

Shortly before that, I was dating this other guy and went over to his place for dinner/movie and HE put on a porn video depicting the bondage and rape of women. I walked out immediately and screened all my calls.

Admittedly, I may have bad taste in men, but I have to say that I don't think there's such thing as a "magnet for assholes". I was just in that "getting to know you" phase, so I had no idea that these guys were heavy into misogyny. Usually, I assume the best of people until they prove me wrong. Maybe that's naive, but the opposite is kind of a lonely way to live.

My son (10 years old) and I were driving through a notsogood part of town (coincidentally where I grew up) and upon driving by a certain building, he asked me what a stripper was. Man, I was expecting the sex questions first! Anyway, I was very careful in my response and I said that it was a person, usually a woman, who takes their clothes off when other people (usually men) pay them to. He wanted to know why that happened and I said I wasn't sure, but that I thought maybe it made the people with the money feel powerful. I asked him how he'd feel if someone wanted to pay him to take his clothes off. His eyes went big and round and he said he wouldn't like that very much and that he'd be embarrassed.

I think our society infuses young men with such a huge sense of entitlement in so many different ways. Sometimes the best I can do is make it clear that no one is entitled to me except for me.

And I will remember Zoot and Michelle's suggestions next time I find myself in a situation where they're applicable.

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Porn is only a short step away from mainstream advertising in its depiction of women

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This stuff gets made because there's a market for it. Andy said it isn't degradation of women so much as it's a symptom of that degradation. If women were truly enjoying the same status (economic, political and social), respect and rights as men - both in law and in practice - then the market for bad porn would shrivel up and die.

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Which citizens

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The ones who vote in elections.

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? What standards?

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The ones set by the people elected by the citizens who vote in elections.

It's called democracy. My opinion was that commercial speech should not be considered a Charter right only individual speech. I've never liked the idea of corporations having Charter rights.

I'm not sure where I stand on porn, probably because I've never been involved with a man who let porn inform his views on women. So I will bow to the more experienced voices on this matter, and I believe them when they say that it is a degrading experience.

But as I said before, I would be tremendously afraid to let anyone set "decency standards" on anything! Who would get to decide this?

I think that you would find historically that when things have been deemed "indecent," it has almost always been used to oppress women. Look at the story from a couple of days ago - it was "indecent" for a white woman to date a Chinese man.

It was indecent to be alone on the streets in Victorian England. A woman who fought back to a rapist had a much higher chance of having her case thrown out in court, because, the reasoning went, for her to have recognized what was going on and fight back, she must have been indecent, must have been sexually experienced, and therefore, must have consented. (See City of Dreadful Delight by Judith Walkowitz)

As I mentioned before,check out the Hayes Motion Picture Code in the U.S. to see what "decency" standards did to film for decades

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Which citizens
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The ones who vote in elections.

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What standards?
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The ones set by the people elected by the citizens who vote in elections.

It's called democracy.

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I think an open debate on what kinds of images could be used would help air the whole issue.

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I'm all for individual free speech, but, in the same vein as this thread, perhaps the corporation doesn't deserve the same protection.

edited to add:
Alix, I agree with all that you say, but in this arena, free speech is being used to keep women down, to objectify and demean us. Is that better?

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

I find this trend disturbing. Governments have always had the police power to regulate forms of advertising, which in reality is what commercial speech is. If the elected representatives choose to regulate, or even ban certain forms of advertising, the courts have no business second-guessing them. This is just another example of how the corporate financed, neo-liberal ideology has infected all institutions, including the courts.

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I'm all for individual free speech, but, in the same vein as this thread, perhaps the corporation doesn't deserve the same protection.

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[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

First hand accounts of assaults on women would likely be the first thing banned if all expression was included. The better to get it back into the closet.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

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We already have a advertising standards in honesty and other areas. I think that they should be extended to remove the degrading images from our public space.

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[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

Trying to legislate it will drive it underground - not to mention the fact it would never happen in the first place. Can you really imagine our politicians as they are these days making a law like that? And while I may not like these depictions, any step down the road to restrict expression frightens me. Part of what frightens me is that historically largely that those who get to pick what gets censored are idiots! And conservative, and hidebound. Whose to say that erotica wouldn't be banned, or any expression of the naked or nearly naked body whatsoever? That's the easiest and scariest way to dispose of this "problem"

I think we need to be more vocal in this arena - write letters of protest, publicly boycott products that use this kind of advertising if you don't like it. (wow, has this gotten a long way from porn!). If you legislated this kind of advertising out of existence, it would cause resentment without people ever getting an idea. If we are public and vocal, maybe, just maybe, a few people would realize why these images are degrading, and maybe that would start to affect the root cause of the objectification of women.

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If we are public and vocal, maybe, just maybe, a few people would realize why these images are degrading, and maybe that would start to affect the root cause of the objectification of women.

Because I truly do believe that this is a symptom, not a cause. This stuff sells! We should be asking why. And making it less publicly visible will not make it disappear.

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I find extremely offensive to see images of very young girls in sexually suggestive poses not only pretending to represent mature women as if they could look that way but also contributing to a culture of sexualization of youth.

I don't think it is too big a leap from the prevalence of this sort of thing to the judges who throw out molestation and rape charges because the young girl was "aggresive" "looked the part" and so on.

It also gives boys the impression that girls and women are "available".

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I think we need to be more vocal in this arena - write letters of protest, publicly boycott products that use this kind of advertising if you don't like it.

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Why do we need to protect the right to depict these things? I understand the importance of free speech and our constitutional right to express ourselves, but it must have SOME bounds, mustn't it?

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Individually? No. But for corporations, I can see it, up to a point.

As has been pointed out, "decency" isn't something you can really define. Everyone has a different take on it. And it isn't always easy to know what the purpose is.

I'm thinking of, say, the rape scene in Boys Don't Cry - not a perfect example because it's not really all that sexually explicit, but I'll go with it because that's what came to mind. It's horrifying; it's meant to be horrifying. It's a scene of terrible pain and degradation. But some people get off on scenes like that. For all I know, there's some sicko sitting at home jerking off to that scene right now. So what's the difference between that and a porn film?

It may be obvious to you or me, but ultimately, it's not something you can measure - it's a question of intent. And I wouldn't really trust a review committee, even one I picked myself, to judge that for every film that gets into this country. If we ban certain images outright, we prevent them from being used for legitimate, non-hateful purposes.

No, I agree that legislation is not the way to deal with this. Social pressure - boycotts, mockery - is.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

I think the same is true of porn.

And all the censoring in the world (which already occurs in Canada, don't think it doesn't - ask any gay bookstore) isn't going to hasten that process. And that there are forward-thinking, socially-conscious people promoting censorship of any kind is sickening. It's a goddamned slippery slope.

That being said, there's no reason in the world why one individual has to approve of the choices in reading or viewing of another. If men don't like an anti-porn position in a woman, let them find another woman. If a woman doesn't like a man who reads or views pornography, she's free to find another man. And if folks want to accuse those who find porn distasteful of being prudish or anti-sex, well, let them go fuck themselves, 'cause they'll never have the opportunity to find out.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: andrean ]

If you look at this thread, it's plain that the women are talking to each other. The men are trying to respond to what the women have posted.

The reason for this is that it's impossible for someone to justify the existence of pornography to another person who could never enjoy it in their lifetime. It's an impossible gap to bridge.

What's needed on this topic is a new kind of dialogue between the sexes.

The women who are most appalled by porn would be surprised to find out how many of their beloved husbands, fathers, boyfriends, and brothers watch it. Many men watch pornography and CAN contextualize it as "fiction". These men will never "feel a desperate need to have their feminist friends validate their porn usage". In fact, they will hide their dirty little habit because it's still generally not an acceptable passtime for a "gentleman" in our society. The attitudes of several people on this thread bear this out.

The result is that porn remains in the back alley, the workers are exploited and the opporunties to discuss the issue and possible reforms are lost.

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My two cents

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In fact most of the men I know would totally disown your uninvited representation of them.

This is the feminist forum, asshole, and unless you've got a remotely pro-feminist position to post, fuck off.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

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...are worth less than that in this forum. Why would we be interested in how YOU think this discussion should go? And why should we care about your grossly distorted characterization of Everyman, the poor misunderstood porn consumer forced to go covert with pornography because of shrewish wives and girlfriends brainwashed by ball-busting feminists.

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Well, this IS a forum isn't it ? You should examine your extreme reaction to my post, and the reasons behind it.

If you reread my post, I don't exonerate porn consumers from all blame. Like the drug trade, there's a lot of dirty business going on but finger-pointing and demonization doesn't help dialogue and doesn't contribute to solutions.

The characterizations you make about ball-busting feminists are yours, not mine.

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In fact most of the men I know would totally disown your uninvited representation of them.

This is the feminist forum, asshole, and unless you've got a remotely pro-feminist position to post, fuck off.

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Your anger at me is misguided. I'm trying to offer solutions, and you're swearing at me and trying to shut me down.

Unfortunately, the real world exists outside the cozy characterization of men as evil strangers buying porn. You should know that millions of men use it, and if you don't want to face up to the fact that this includes your male friends and relatives then it's possible you may be in denial.

Honestly, I'm trying to portray reality here, so that some real solutions can be found to problems. I don't mean to offend.

I have enjoyed reading your posts on this forum, and I'm hoping that you are more interested in dialogue than this last post of yours suggests.

Why the very thought *swoon*

OH wait it's 2002 and I'm not some naive lie back and think of wrapped in cotton, little woman.

Of course the men I know have used or do use porn.

I think though you may be needing a splint on that ankle. It was a pretty big leap you made to miss the point.

First missed point... I don't want to shock you or anything, but some of us "little ladies" enjoy porn too. Perhaps not the sort that pretends that women are all cunts ready and willing and wet at any time for some big (haha) stud to take.

Second missed point....porn which uses hateful terms and hateful images of women ARE hate speech no different than hateful terms and images of any other group of people.

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OH my my. I'm all aflutter. Surely the honourable men I know would neva neva do such dirty deeds.
Why the very thought *swoon*

OH wait it's 2002 and I'm not some naive lie back and think of wrapped in cotton, little woman.

Of course the men I know have used or do use porn.

I think though you may be needing a splint on that ankle. It was a pretty big leap you made to miss the point.

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I'm glad you can appreciate that fact. I think that finding a common ground in such a debate is key.

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First missed point... I don't want to shock you or anything, but some of us "little ladies" enjoy porn too. Perhaps not the sort that pretends that women are all cunts ready and willing and wet at any time for some big (haha) stud to take.

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Yes, I know that this is true. I guess my address is to all of those who don't realize the prevalence of this type of material.

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Second missed point....porn which uses hateful terms and hateful images of women ARE hate speech no different than hateful terms and images of any other group of people.

The fact that some guys get off on it and dont' want to discuss the problem with that speaks to all that is wrong with our society and why we still have a long way to go baby.

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Well, I think discussion would be a good thing as I said.

I'm not sure what percentage of men get off on degradation, as opposed to just watching people have sex.

It seems like there are a few things that need to be addressed:

- Exploitation of sex and porn workers.
- Depiction of hateful or violent sex acts.
- Depiction of non-violent sex acts in an unrealistic or sexist fashion.
- Depiction of non-violent sex acts in a realistic fashion.

Any one of these points would produce an exhaustive discussion, I'm sure.

I would guess that most men who consume porn have no problem with the last two points, and try not to think of the first point.

But to me, demonization of porn consumers does harm to the cause to try and help sex workers.

Here's why:

If you leave porn in the alley, then no one will take responsibility for the social effects of it.

I doubt you can ever get men to give up porn altogether, but if people start to get more comfortable with discussing it and owning up to the problems associated with it, then I think progress could be made on point 1, and maybe even point 3.

I think we need to monitor the conditions under which this stuff is produced much, much more closely than we do. That, for me, would be the first step to feeling okay about it.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

Do yourself a favour if you are going to tread in the water of the Feminst forums, educate yourself with previous threads. We do not wear our kid gloves here and you will get a verbal smack down when warranted, the delicate little daisies that we are.

Here is some light reading as a start:
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000152&p=2

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I doubt you can ever get men to give up porn altogether, but if people start to get more comfortable with discussing it and owning up to the problems associated with it

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It has not been hinted at that we want men to never watch porn again, as many women enjoy porn as well and that would be depriving ourselves of an activity we can share with our partners. It seems the women here are more than open to a discussion about porn itself and have made that obvious. Instead what has happened is that a few male posters had to make it about censorship. A not surprising hijack.

[Iquote]I'm glad you can appreciate that fact.[/quote]

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We are not nearly as naive or fragile as your silly suggestions imply.

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I'm not suggesting that you're naive or fragile. I am suggesting a new kind of dialogue between the sexes on this topic, and I think one glance at the thread above will show why.

Here are a few comments I gleaned in just 30 seconds of scanning the comments above:

"...it really lowered my opinion of them. "

"Paying for sex, in most any form, is pretty detestable."

It seems to me that there is a gulf in attitudes here that could be bridged by a more realistic assessment of the mindset of the consumer.

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Do yourself a favour if you are going to tread in the water of the Feminst forums, educate yourself with previous threads. We do not wear our kid gloves here and you will get a verbal smack down when warranted, the delicate little daisies that we are.

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I don't "smack down" others when it comes to debating, and I don't appreciate being smacked. I prefer discussion over violence, thanks, even if it's metaphorical.

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Here is some light reading as a start:
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000152&p=2

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Thanks. That was an interesting discussion, featuring many of the stars of Rabble. For the record, I don't think men should attend "take back the night" marches, and I do think violence against women is a major problem.

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It has not been hinted at that we want men to never watch porn again, as many women enjoy porn as well and that would be depriving ourselves of an activity we can share with our partners. It seems the women here are more than open to a discussion about porn itself and have made that obvious. Instead what has happened is that a few male posters had to make it about censorship. A not surprising hijack.

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I don't think it's about censorship. I'm pretty sure that most people see the pointlessness of trying to ban this stuff outright.

I see what you mean about the posts above, though. If people agree that it isn't about censorship, then men have no argument left.

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It seems to me that there is a gulf in attitudes here that could be bridged by a more realistic assessment of the mindset of the consumer

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I just read the thread you posted all the way to the bottom.

As a newbie, I don't think I really understood the point of the feminism forum. It seems to be more of a place for women to discuss issues that are pertinent to them. If so, my insistence on "dialogue between the genders" seems out of place.

Sorry for intruding...

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I don't think most of the women on this board are seriously bothered by non-violent, non-hateful porn. I don't feel particularly inclined to watch it, but it doesn't disturb me if other people do.

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Actually Smith, porn doesn't have to be violent or hateful to disturb me. It's the fake orgasms and the fake breasts and the completely fake sexual appetites portrayed in non-violent porn that gets me.

Some women may enjoy being boffed by three or four men at the same time. I doubt they'd be in a continual stage of readiness and orgasm through the whole episode though.

Some women may enjoy being pounded into a sofa, I don't think our bodies are set up to be really turned on by it though. These film makers need a lesson in anatomy. (Remeber that thing called the clitoris? It actually works, boys.)

Some women may enjoy having massive fake breasts and lasered/shaven body parts, but it certainly doesn't represent real women.

As a matter of fact most porn doesn't represent sex at all, but some mans fantasy of it. (For example, the attitude that if a man likes it then so will she. I mean all she keeps saying is "yes, yes, yes, YES. I imagine those are the words that really turn men on...)

I think that our society needs to embrace a sexuality that is based on giving pleasure to one's partner and that is pleasure defined by the receipient not the person supposedly giving the pleasure.

It is the submissive images that are the most reprehensible to me because sex without mutual trust and respect is not about love and pleasue but about power. It is in fact the depiction of the power relationship rather than erotic love that needs to be somehow removed from all the public imagery.

We don't allow advertisers to depict people drinking and driving because it leads to road deaths. You also don't see cigarettes in ads anymore either. The point about the evils of censorship is well founded. So the question for me is what do I do to change the pervasive culture around us? How did wearing seatbelts in Canada come to be seen as normal and smart unlike in the states where it is seen by far too many as some sort of anti-authoritarian statement. What is the way to get that kind of societal shift?

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The ONLY way that you rid society of images that oversexualize and degrade half the population is by raising the other half of the population to NOT oversexualize and degrade. And raise girls and boys to have the kind of self-esteem that prevents them from wanting to participate in or consume things that depict healthy sensual acts as something dirty, shameful and degrading.

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We all have a duty to teach our sons and daughters that we are all created equal even if not the same. It is disconcerting for a man to try to teach his son to respect women and the girsl he is growing up with when that message is being undermined at every turn by mainstream media shouting in both male and female voices that the sexist world is the norm.

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Maybe if more and more young women insisted on dating young men who treat them with respect it would help give my son the positive reinforcement he needs to take his fathers advice about how to treat women. Its a hard sell to a young man with raging hormones when the biggest sexist pig in the locker room is the first choice of dance partner for most of the young girls. Both genders of our young people are subjected to powerful societal forces that seek to indoctrinate them into unhealthy rolls. How do we teach them all to just say no to the dominant gender myths?

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It's a serious problem. I've had it on my mind a lot since this thread began and a couple weeks ago, with the previous porn-related thread. I agree that it's our job, as the "adults" in society to raise the younger people to disdain these gender myths and horrid falsehoods about relations between the sexes. I tend to get kinda riled up, though, when it's suggested that we women should just be more vocal, more discrimiating, and thereby somehow teach a lesson to the men around us. Men are not idiots. They know just as well as we do that it's pretty sick, what's in most of the porn--and advertising and music videos and movies--these days. Anybody I know has some awareness of the women's movement and of feminism. They may not be staunch active feminists or anything, but they know the gist of it, and it's up to them, as much as it is up to us, to take responsibility for buying in, and contributing to the industry, the myth, and the sexism.

I think it's wrong to make it the responsibility of those who are oppressed by this garbage to change the consumption habits and attitudes of those who buy it and use it. Ultimately, we have no choice (since nobody else seems to give a rat's ass), but if you have any sense in your heads, you men, you should be smart enough to see your causal relationship to the porn industry. If you have any qualms at all about any aspect of it, it's up to you, all by yourself, to opt out, to demand alternatives, and to spread the word among your peers.

We can only do so much from this side of the gender divide.

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

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We can only do so much from this side of the gender divide.

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I'm sorry Lima if I wasn't clear above I was advocating for both men and women to speak together and try to lessen the divide not that only women should be speaking out. Of course it is not solely up to women to deal with the sexist crap. However it seems to me that a good place to start is with lessening the divide. It is a waste of either a young man or a young womans potential to have them buy into the societal myths about gender relations. The myth may have the man as the dominant force but at its core it diminishes men as well as women.