[ 26 October 2004: Message edited by: libertarian ]

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Originally posted by Amy:
The one thing about gyms is that, if you are an "athletic looking" woman, it will be far less intimidating to go there for a workout than if you aren't.

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I wonder if there could be a gym specifically for people who don't have TV-bods?

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Originally posted by thwap:
Right about this time a liberal would pipe-in about how 'of course these women-only gyms are discriminatory.'

Isn't 'curves' run by a right-wing nutbar though? Or is that some other gym?

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The guy who started it is a right wing fundamentalist. The franchises are not allowed to be open on Sundays or later in the evenings because that is when ladies need to be in church or preparing dinner for their families.

Many of the franchise owners are Christian, frequently the music played over the sound systems is Christian music.

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Originally posted by libertarian:
Melsky; could you provide references? My wife is a Curves client.

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Does Curves Founder Support pro-life causes?

From a Christian Women's Message Board

... I really like that both owners are Christian and all their studios are closed on Sunday ... also, @ my location they play Christian music and I thought that was neat, too ..

I'm familiar with them because they opened in the town I used to live and I thought about going there, but I didn't want to because they were not open on Sundays so I asked them why, and they told me they want women to spend Sunday and evenings with their families.

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Special interest organizations
18.  The rights under Part I to equal treatment with respect to services and facilities, with or without accommodation, are not infringed where membership or participation in a religious, philanthropic, educational, fraternal or social institution or organization that is primarily engaged in serving the interests of persons identified by a prohibited ground of discrimination is restricted to persons who are similarly identified. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.19, s. 18.

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Recreational clubs
20. (3) The right under section 1 to equal treatment with respect to services and facilities is not infringed where a recreational club restricts or qualifies access to its services or facilities or gives preferences with respect to membership dues and other fees because of age, sex, marital status, same-sex partnership status or family status. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.19, s. 20 (3); 1999, c. 6, s. 28 (9).

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Lots of businesses get away with violating human rights code because no one is interested in challenging them. There are plenty of men-only and co-ed gyms -- and I expect the last thing non-gym body men would want is to work out in a gym surrounded by women.

[ 26 October 2004: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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I don't think any of these apply to businesses though.

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My guess is that Curves, or any other similar service, could get around this by saying "We're not a business that charges fees, we're a club that charges dues."

That said, I'm not sure that women or men feeling "awkward" in their spandex is really a good enough reason for a women-only (or men-only) gym. As has been pointed out a million times, if climbing the stairmaster in front of some hardbody is going to be a dealbreaker for you, there's always the "Y".

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Originally posted by libertarian:
I was under the impresswion that all clubs/business must be open to all comers.

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Come, Thou almighty King,
Help us Thy Name to sing, help us to praise!
Father all glorious, over all victorious,
Come and reign over us, Ancient of Days!

(reign or "rain" over us?)

Jesus, our Lord, arise,
Scatter our enemies, and make them fall;
Let Thine almighty aid our sure defense be made,
Souls on Thee be stayed; Lord, hear our call.

Come, Thou incarnate Word,
Gird on Thy mighty sword, our prayer attend!

"thy might sword?" Oh, puh-lease!

Come, and Thy people bless, and give Thy Word success,
Spirit of holiness, on us descend!

Jesus is a top.

Come, holy Comforter,
Thy sacred witness bear in this glad hour.
Thou Who almighty art, now rule in every heart,
And ne’er from us depart, Spirit of power!

In assembly each morning we would sing "All things bright and beautiful"
The first line of the third verse begins
"The purple headed mountain" Invariably followed by much sniggering

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Originally posted by runner:
[QB]reminds of the old school days at my all boys grammar school in the UK

In assembly each morning we would sing "All things bright and beautiful".

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O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!

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What is it with purple mountains anyway

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

Lots of businesses get away with violating human rights code because no one is interested in challenging them. There are plenty of men-only and co-ed gyms -- and I expect the last thing non-gym body men would want is to work out in a gym surrounded by women.

[ 26 October 2004: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
Down with gyms of all flavours I say.

Open your door, walk past your car, and continue walking or running until you feel like stopping.
Rest and repeat.

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Ghobe! To Sara Mayo for posting the Charter clauses that outline the issue here. It explains it very well. I have seen how courts and tribunals have dealt with the grey areas of anti-discrimination and public space.

The Charter also makes a provision in the equality section that allows for programs and initiatives to be targeted to help what it calls "traditionally disadvantaged groups."

The gym situation is clearer, since, as many have outlined here, exercise can be a very personal matter--and body therapy and maintenance is traditionally viewed in society as a very gender-specific thing (like gender-specific washrooms or medical and health therapies).

That's much different than saying a gym should be for "whites only" or any other specific ethnicity, since body maintenance and therapies are not ethnic-specific.

In fact, "whites-only" anything is pretty much an intentionally racist discriminatory practice, since "whites-only," especially in North America is a very political concept, not based on an ethnic-specific need.

As for me, gyms are a secondary issue, since I do most of my exercise on my own at home. The gym I used on occasion is the weight room at my local community center. It is coed, but the atmosphere is pretty laid back and welcoming. People, including the women there, don't appear to feel uncomfortable.

The comments by skdadl, Realitybites and Magoo got me to thinkin that it does seem like a lot of US folk culture get this here thang bout mountains an sex:

SHe'll be cumin round the mountain when she comes
She'll be comin round the mountain when she comes
She'll be comin round the mountain, she'll be comin round the mountain she'll be comin round the mountain when she comes.

Whoever wrote this musta had their hormones pretty jacked up at the time.

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Originally posted by runner:
In assembly each morning we would sing "All things bright and beautiful"
The first line of the third verse begins
"The purple headed mountain" Invariably followed by much sniggering

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Noooooooo! That's one of my favorite hymns of all time! I even used it as one of my wedding hymns! And now I'll never be able to hear it again without thinking about that! Arrrrgh!

However, the "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord" always makes me giggle too. Dirty minds!

P.S. Klingon - not only will she be comin' round the mountain when she comes, but she'll be riding six white horses when she comes!

[ 09 November 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

would make good background music at an orgy;

Oh, Oh, just remembered the next two lines, and realized that if taken literally, it could be a great set-up for an Isreali raid.

[ 09 November 2004: Message edited by: James ]

K’pla! Mandos!

That’s why they banned me from Ron Zalko Fitness Affair. Killing the yuppies there and refusing to pay the cover charge were two things the pathetic little P’tackh just couldn’t handle. So I practice at home now. Humans are just weak and timid wet blankets!

>Klingon - not only will she be comin' round the mountain when she comes, but she'll be riding six white horses when she comes!

Qu’Q! Coming all over those gallant white horses!? You don’t mean bestiality, do you Michelle? Hey, maybe that song should be banned. Let’s suggest it to Jerry Falwell.

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Originally posted by Klingon:
Ghobe! To Sara Mayo for posting the Charter clauses that outline the issue here. It explains it very well.

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is it such a big deal that a woman have a space to exercise without being ogled by testosterone overloaded fuck wits

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Wow. Men are "testosterone overloaded fuckwits" now?

Isn't that the basic premise of "Men only" clubs... so men could have a little peace and quiet without being nagged by estrogen overloaded fuckwits?

I just don't think we have a real need to divide the world this way. If you don't like the other clientele at your gym, choose another or exercise at home. How long before we have a "men's end" and "women's end" of the beach, based on exactly the same belief that people seeing other people in a swimsuit is the end of the world?

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Oh for fuck sake's grow up.

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Exactly. Nobody's staring at your leotard. Just get on with it. Geez.

ed'd to add:

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If you really wanted to challenge womens' only gyms, you could take it to the Human Rights Commission but I can't foresee much support

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The worst part being that if you win, all you get is the right to join Curves. Yay. But I will challenge the idea that dividing the world into "Women only" and "Men only" sections makes sense. For for washrooms and changerooms, sure, but for very little else. If men or women at health clubs are "ogling" this should be brought to the attention of the staff and it should be dealt with properly. I don't think the answer is gender-only facilities. That said, those who want to support the religious right by joining Curves can help themselves.

[ 10 November 2004: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]

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If you don't like the other clientele at your gym, choose another

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That is in essence what we are doing by choosing a gym that caters to women only.

I don't know how many of you actually use a gym on a regular basis but the more common reason they seperate men and women is becuase of the power lifters who hog equipment and grunt (the grunting is apparently annoying to some women).

while some men have no problem sharing equipment with women who are on and off it in 15 minutes, most power lifters tend to team up with a buddy and can spend as long as an hour on one or two machines.

Edited to add: and lets not forget the sweating and the smell either.

[ 10 November 2004: Message edited by: exiled armadillo ]

It is absolutely correct that Curves is catering to a niche market and that market isn't women - it's a certain kind of woman. My mother exercises at Curves (despite my protest!) but it would not suit my needs at all. The program is designed so you can complete an 'aerobic and strength' circuit in just thirty minutes. There are no free weights, no intimidating machines, just easy to use resistance machines. It's designed for 'regular' women with busy schedules and not the 20-something tanned and tight Bally's addict.

It caters largely to women trying to lose weight or to get into the shape for the first time. It provides a safe environment where they can feel comfortable and not intimidated. It isn't about avoiding oogling and testosterone, it's about providing a safe space where these women can forget about body image issues or negativity and work towards their goals in a supportive environment. If you've been to a regular gym, you'll know this isn't what you find.

There, that about covers my reasons for not working out. Pass me the Doritos^TM and the remote, please.

[ 10 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

Lots of the fitness world types go there AFTER they've gotten back into shape. but to a woman who has serious body issues, it might feel like the while world is watching you walk in to the room(complete with spandex). This would keep them from ever going on a regular basis.

the object is to get them out, to get them hooked on enjoying what it feels like to realy move your body and feel healthy. if they need a "womens only" closet, fine, leave the golds gyms and the fitness worlds to the rest of us.

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Many women feel uncomfortable using free weights and they certainly don't need the 40lb dumb bells being thrown around all over the place at Goodlife or Bally's.

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Some men too, I'd assume. I can't see a problem with gyms advertising the kind of equipment and facilities a member could expect. I just think it's odd that these preferences are being assumed to be drawn down rigid male:female lines.

And if it really only does come down to the whole "I don't want to be ogled" thing, why no heterosexual-only gyms? I had a friend years ago (no longer) who believed that gay men were constantly "checking him out" and it made him uncomfortable. If "Curves" branched out to a new franchise called "Straights", where heterosexual men could work out without worrying that some gay hardbody was comparing glutes with them, could anyone support that??

Edmonton has women only shinny hockey at designated times.

Bars have ladies nights. Hotels have women only weekends.

If you are a private club, you can.

Those interested in the state of the law on this could read the case of Madelyn Gould at this site.

Type "Gould v. Yukon" in the search engine.

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Wow. Men are "testosterone overloaded fuckwits" now?

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one's who ogle or harrass women at the gym are

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Exactly. Nobody's staring at your leotard. Just get on with it. Geez.

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Well a two-hundred pound plus bald guy in leotards might get a few stares. I'll have to try it out.

As usual magoo you don't get it and you don't even try to get it, you are unable to appreciate the experience of anyone else in the world, you lack the sensitivity or perceptiveness to understand another perspective.

women are subjected to all manner of harrassments just going out in the world ranging from leering, unwanted comments to threats and actual violence, physical, sexual and emotional.

women's bodies are displayed commodified objectified and considered to be generally open to comment or ridicule...so I've heard... frequently

This is not the general experience of you or I as men in our society.

What you fail to appreciate from your own example about your friend is that he is uncomfortable being sexually objectified and I imagine,he is not ogled constantly by gay men. how would he feel if this happened all the time his entire life?

Your slippery slope argument is equally ridiculous.

It all started with separate gyms then it led to separate beaches and separate neighbourhoods,to separate cities to separate countries and finally separate planets and before you knew it

Men were from Mars and women are from Venus

also comparing female gyms to racial segregation is not only stupid it is absurd and offensive, I really don't think i need to go into why.

[ 10 November 2004: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]

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Wow. Men are "testosterone overloaded fuckwits" now? Isn't that the basic premise of "Men only" clubs... so men could have a little peace and quiet without being nagged by estrogen overloaded fuckwits? I just don't think we have a real need to divide the world this way. If you don't like the other clientele at your gym, choose another or exercise at home. How long before we have a "men's end" and "women's end" of the beach, based on exactly the same belief that people seeing other people in a swimsuit is the end of the world?

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That first part did make me chuckle. The latter part did make me think a bit more about the whole issue because while I wouldn't support separate ends of the beach I do support separate gyms. Makes me realize how inconsistent I am!

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I don't know how many of you actually use a gym on a regular basis but the more common reason they seperate men and women is becuase of the power lifters who hog equipment and grunt (the grunting is apparently annoying to some women).

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I find that men are much more amenable than women. If you tell them they are spending too much time and you'd like a turn they always get off.

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Hotels have women only weekends.

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Seriously????

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women are subjected to all manner of harrassments just going out in the world ranging from leering, unwanted comments to threats and actual violence, physical, sexual and emotional.

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Men making casual note of the fact that you are attractive isn't a sin last time I checked.

If someone is, however, threatening, being violent, sexually abusing anyone, physically abusing anyone or being emotionally abusive then women shouldn't be hordered off to another corner the offender should be dealt with.

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Hotels have women only weekends.

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Notwithstanding anything, such segregation should be illegal, and these inferior imports should be deported

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