i'm looking at a map of Winnipeg right now....it shows where all the railway, roads and certain zoned areas....i think Winnipeg -(in conjunction with CN/CP)- should build an underground, inner-perimeter electric rail and road....Winnipeg could easily connect all major malls, big boxes, high rises, hospitals via an electric tunnel under the current above ground railway lines

why not get rid of big rigs driving through the city and wrecking the roads and air?....CP/CN could promise "ship-to-shelf" inegrated distribution lines

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Originally posted by CourtneyGQuinn:
the truckers union in Vancouver should watch their step....CN and CP could easily convert their distribution system to bypass big rigs altogether...

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While my sympathies lie with the truckers, you are right. The dockers in England pushed so hard that most of their work went to the continent where cargo was containerized. From there, it came by train and delivered well away from London's docks.
Canadian industry could containerize everything and train it to Prince Rupert. There are significant noises about much of the traffic going to Seattle.

maybe once unions were a help to the average person...but i think unions today are little more then a hassle...do Canadian organizations really need more "middlemen" and paper-pushers offering little value to the overall economy?

i think unions don't look out for workers in general...they look out for THEIR workers....

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maybe once unions were a help to the average person...but i think unions today are little more then a hassle...do Canadian organizations really need more "middlemen" and paper-pushers offering little value to the overall economy?

i think unions don't look out for workers in general...they look out for THEIR workers....

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Once again the old canard is trotted out. Yes, we don't need unions anymore because capitalists are enlightened and no longer seek to maximize the bottom line at any human cost, but are in business to do good for the average worker.

shit.

Anywho, here in the industrial heartland many industries that have not had their rail siddings torn up by CN or CP for their scrap value are just keeping them for contingency reasons. If you sit back and take a look at how most consumer goods are needed, a truck is now, and for the foreseeable future, the most pragmatic way of shipping things.

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Yes, we don't need unions anymore because capitalists are enlightened and no longer seek to maximize the bottom line at any human cost, but are in business to do good for the average worker.

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I've said it before, but... in a labour-history class I took, we were told that the Globe and Mail has been running this editorial about every generation or so. The first time -- and our prof showed us a microfilmed copy -- was around 1886 (when it was still the Globe, I believe).

the right feels the need to associate with the church....the left feels the need to associate with unions

in a one industry town back in the day a union made sense...

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today..how do unions help workers as a whole?

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I don't know why you would think that, if unions did not help "workers as a whole" (whatever they are), they (unions) would thereby be useless, or could be classed as "past, old organizations." (Though, in truth, I hardly understand any of your thought processes, at least as you've articulated them on this board -- but let that pass).

To make only the most obvious objection: if, "in a one industry town back in the day [sic]," a union made sense, how did it make sense for "workers as a whole," meaning (presumably) workers elsewhere? How did it help them?

But there are better objections to your dismissal of unions today (as opposed to back in the "bad old days." Like most of your ilk, you don't bother to explain just how things are better for "workers as a whole" than they were in, say 1965. In some ways, they're demonstrably worse). Your dismissal is, by the way, just about as glib and ignorant as most such.

For example: if unions didn't fight to preseve and extend workplace health and safety protection, no-one would, or at least no-one with any clout. And, unlike some of what unions do, this benefits workers who are not and probably never will be organized.

[ 23 July 2005: Message edited by: 'lance ]

It is useful to ask these people if the joining together of capital/money in corporations is also something which should be denigrated.

Usually, they think it is highly fantastic for capitalists to join together, but never workers.

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Usually, they think it is highly fantastic for capitalists to join together, but never workers.

Basically, they want corporate rule.

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Well, this is it exactly. Union shops or closed shops, picket lines and the like are supposedly infringements of individuals' rights to work. But the same argument isn't applied to capital formation -- which sets up barriers preventing a lot of individuals going into business.

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Originally posted by Cougyr:
Unions have to change with the times. I've talked to several union heavyweights who understand this. The problem is that it is very difficult to make the necessary changes when the present climate leans so heavily towards getting rid of them alltogether.

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by Tommy_Paine

I take your slide into irrelevance as surrendering the point.
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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

a truck is now, and for the foreseeable future, the most pragmatic way of shipping things.

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So why isn't it done? My guess is lack of flexibility on the part of the rail systems.

You can order up a truck at the drop of a hat, and have that hurry up load half way to Mexico before CN or CP has your box cars put together into a train.

In the auto sector, many parts suppliers are given a print out by Ford or GM or Chrysler of the forcasted build. The parts are loaded onto a transport truck in the reverse order of how they will be needed at the plant, so they will be in proper order when they are unloaded. Many of these loads are put on a conveyor system on the loading dock, and they are loaded all at once, instead of the old way with lift trucks going in and out.

Railway workers are unionised as well.

There is a legitimate issue of what to do when there are unionised workers - and indeed any workers, whose jobs are in a polluting or detrimental industry - arms workers, of whom there are many in Montréal, are a case in point. As for auto workers, it is far easier to convert the plants they work in to produce the massive production of public transport vehicles that would be needed in changeover to carfree cities, not to mention the equally massive infrastructure investments. Truckers are a similar case - their labour is socially useful, but it is a more-polluting and more land-consuming response to the question of distribution. There are ways to provide employment or income security to these workers in transitional periods. It is the capitalists who started the post Second-World-War move to sprawling suburbs and sped up the shift from rail to trucking (while taxpayers pick up the bill for road repairs and "improvements"). Not the workers.

[ 24 July 2005: Message edited by: lagatta ]

i've gots to hand it them though....they're acting like a union without having to pay the dues

the reason i don't see a need for unions:
1)you don't need to sign up for a job if you don't want to...you know what you're getting into when you sign on
2)you've got a problem (that's effecting you or other coworkers), then you should consult management...if the problem might lead to widespread disruption then it's in managements best interest to settle workers problems
3)if you have a problem that management refuses to consider you can consult a: 1)lawyer, 2)police, 3)media, 4)politician

if a corp shuns workers, then workers and investors can shun the corp

within a city...why don't trains have the ability to offload small scale cargo along its lines....why does a train carry big boxes to the railyard and the transfer those big boxes to the big boxes via big rigs?

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the reason i don't see a need for unions:
1)you don't need to sign up for a job if you don't want to...you know what you're getting into when you sign on

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Employers violate their contracts

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2)you've got a problem (that's effecting you or other coworkers), then you should consult management...if the problem might lead to widespread disruption then it's in managements best interest to settle workers problems

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For many employees, confronting management about a problem they face is intimidating, considering that employers can fire you for any reason and make up some excuse as to why they did and get away with it.

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3)if you have a problem that management refuses to consider you can consult a: 1)lawyer

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Do you know how much those cost?

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2)police

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They are not as capable of responding to white collar crime as they should be because of declining resources, and the police are not there to protect us, they are there to maintain order and cracking down on white collar crime, according to the powers that be, isn't their highest priority in keeping order.

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3)media

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So they can spin the story to sound like you're whining, if you're lucky enough for them to pay attention to you at all?

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4)politician

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You have a few briefcases stuffed with $100 bills kicking around?

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if the problem of corps (multiple) not treating workers well increases...you can always vote for a political party that will do something about it

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I thought we did that when we voted for politicians who passed laws guaranteeing union rights. The idea of being part of a union is that everyone is concerned with everyone else's welfare, that they all look out for one another. That ultimately puts the workers in a stronger position. It stands in contrast to the idea where each worker thinks, "I'm well-paid enough, so I don't have to worry about what happens to anyone else."

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i know the truckers in Vancouver aren't technically a union....but they sure are acting like one....using their clout to disrupt society...

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That is a very ignorant remark. In each individual situation, you can question whether or not the union was too quick to call for a strike. Strikes, however, have to be approved by the rank and file, and these people have the most to lose. You go on strike when you feel your employer won't negotiate fairly with you and there's no other option. I can assure you that a strike vote is not taken lightly by the workers. Conversely, the employers have the rignt to start a dispute if they feel the union is unreasonable. That's called a lock-out. Time is on the side of the employer, because dragging out a dispute allows them to basically starve the union into submission.

It is ironic that you will accuse unions of "using their clout to disrupt society." You forget that corporations also have such clout. How about the fact that Enron caused the summer 2001 energy crisis in California in order to drive up rates and increase profits?

i see your points...you are correct on many thoughts

i don't really care if someone on the right feels the need to give X amount of their weekly pay to the church to do something for them.....i don't really care if someone on the left wishes to give X amount of their weekly pay to the union- (or professional org...which is really a quasi-union)- to do something for them

Unions? For skilled labour and essential services..Absolutly. But some janitor mopping out bathrooms is making 18 bucks an hour, goes on strike and shuts down my kids school? The pendulum has drifted to the other side.

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Originally posted by CourtneyGQuinn:
i was thinking....within a city...why don't trains have the ability to offload small scale cargo along its lines....?

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Actually, much of what you suggest did exist in most cities and was removed. Big interurban railroads, such as the BC Electric RR, provided trolley, and freight service and substantial suburban commuter service. The line up the Fraser Valley to Chilliwack was noted for its milk runs; farmers would drop of milk cans to be taken by rail to dairies. In the fifties, General Motors ran a major marketing campaign to persuade cities to replace the electric railways with diesel buses and trucks; of course, made by GM. Automobile drivers hate tracks in the roads and to this day will raise stink about them.

BC Electric RR

[ 26 July 2005: Message edited by: Cougyr ]

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Originally posted by Con Carne:
Unions? For skilled labour and essential services..Absolutly. But some janitor mopping out bathrooms is making 18 bucks an hour, goes on strike and shuts down my kids school? The pendulum has drifted to the other side.

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Do I detect wage (penis) envy? I never seen any one of you goddamn crappers about "OOH THE JANITORS ARE MAKING $18 AN HOUR CAN'T HAVE THAT" actually try to get one of them allegedly cushy jobs.

Nuh-uh, You're perfectly willing to sit on your fat duffs whining about the wages just because you're either too cool to go get one of those jobs and get the $18 an hour or you're just envious, or you're just too freakin lazy to even bother trying.

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Originally posted by Con Carne:
Unions? For skilled labour and essential services..Absolutly. But some janitor mopping out bathrooms is making 18 bucks an hour, goes on strike and shuts down my kids school? The pendulum has drifted to the other side.

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Unions? For skilled labour and essential services..Absolutly. But some janitor mopping out bathrooms is making 18 bucks an hour, goes on strike and shuts down my kids school? The pendulum has drifted to the other side.

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Let's see, $18 an hour x 40 hours = $720 a week x 52 weeks in a year and that makes $37,440 per year....hardly a huge sum. To get me to clean toilets and clean puke and God knows what up from our schools they'd have to pay me a hell of a lot more than that. That's a deal IMHO.

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Originally posted by radiorahim:
On the other hand I don't know a single CEO who's worth a million bucks a year. In the grand scheme of things that $18 an hour janitor is worth a whole lot more to society.

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Originally posted by Cougyr:
Agreed. What's more, a lot of CEO's get huge bonuses for screwing up.

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Aha! Looks like Zurich is trying it out as well.

It would be particularly suited to containers...

i've been thinking about the potential of cabs/taxis in regards to global warming, smog, and the incomprehensible rise of gas prices.....imagine if the top 10 or 20 cab/taxi companies in BC, MB, QB, NF adervertised their willingness to switch to pure electric cars should the Provincial government press Ottawa and Ontario....

they- taxis/cabbies- could say they would buy non-polluting pure electric if the provincial gov's help set a competitive hydro bill....the taxi/cabs's could charge their removable, interchangable battery packs when hydro demand is low (at night)

the car, bus and train companies ought to agree on standards to intergrate pure electric vehicles....one size should fit cars/trucks/vans/SUV's (multipacks depending upon model)....one size of battery shoud also be for inner-city trains, buses and big rigs

Winnipeg should move the inner city rail transfer yards....(imagine any politician in Canada/Manitoba/Winnipeg...the CP Winnipeg rail-land between the two bridges could be an amazing development spot).....Winnipeg should use the existing inner city lines efficently/effectively...

a few days ago i looked over the Shaw Rebchuk birdge at the huge railyard in Winnipeg overlooking the Arlington bridge (huge plot of land in between)....a couple of things concerned me.....1) the amount of graffiti on the railcars....(mind you the railcars are from how many differnent jurisdictions?)....there aren't even fences seperating the railyards from the sitting trains waiting for transfer...?

With respect to Janitor's: EVERY employee plays an important role in society. EVERY job is important. You think a doctor is better than a janitor?? Imagine what would happen if no one cleaned the schools, they would become infested with bacteria, disease, animals probably and the physical structure would degenerate. Children would become sick and we wouldn't have schools anymore.
$38 000 is barely sufficient for a family of four, thus creating a need for both parents to work.
How dare someone suggest the qualification of the role of each person in society, it is classist and oppressive. It is directly related (sorry for the drifting) to why full-time mother's aren't supported by our government.

This forum is supposed to be left-wing and those talking against unions are bringing right wing arguments (especially with the above-mentioned arguments)into the mix and it is not appreciated.

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Originally posted by Con Carne:
Unions? For skilled labour and essential services..Absolutly. But some janitor mopping out bathrooms is making 18 bucks an hour, goes on strike and shuts down my kids school? The pendulum has drifted to the other side.

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Originally posted by Con Carne:
Mental health support workers are paid 10 bucks an hour.

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"A person in low income is someone whose family income falls below Statistics Canada's low-income cutoffs (LICOs)." By 2003 Stats Can figures 40.9% of children in female lone-parent families are low-income, as are 37.5% of single women 18 to 65, 30.7% of single men, and so on.

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

This is how "just in time" works, and I don't see rail ever adapting to this system without billions and billions in capital investment.

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