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Topic: difference vs. sameness feminism
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'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248
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posted 18 March 2002 09:23 PM
ok, keep in mind i'm just a dumb guy, and this may be a dumb guy question, but:how divisive is this question? is there a prevailing view? do the 'women and men are different, but our difference is good' feminists see the 'men & women are basically the same & therefore equal' feminists as a threat or somehow counterproductive, or vice versa? or is difference feminism really more along the lines of 'we are basically the same, but due to historical/social factors we become different, and that difference is good' (sorry if this has been brought up before... i did a seach and found nothing.)
From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873
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posted 18 March 2002 10:12 PM
That's an interesting and complex question, O Just-A-Humble-Guy. There's no definitive way to prove where biology ends and socialization begins, so most of what such a question provokes must needs be opinion-based.In my not-so-humble opinionated opinion, we've got the same biology that we had tens of thousands of years ago, so it stands to reason that beneath all our wonderful art, music, philosophy, etc., we're not that long out of the trees. So I guess our basic animalism is a bit rough on our heartfelt desire and intellectual striving for egalitarian society. That said, I think men and women are as different and/or as equal as any single individual is from another. I'm always in favour of moving away from gender-based comparisons wherever possible (and it isn't always possible) and I prefer to steer clear of generalizations when I can and look at people, their strengths and their flaws on a case to case basis. But that's hard to do all the time and it's easier to give into the all too human tendency to categorize and stereotype. And, of course, we have this bothersome history of women being chattel (well, also a history of people being chattel for an elite aristocrasy, but women in particular), and that's taking some pretty substantial time and effort to correct and balance out against the fair and reasonable interests and desires of men. I think we're moving towards some form of social and economic equality, stumbling along the way, but we're always going to be different. I like that difference.
From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001
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nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402
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posted 19 March 2002 09:15 PM
Rebecca, you're right, as usual.I have trouble, sometimes, separating the personal from the political. They overlap, and i prefer to bring everything big and theoretical down to a personal level, just because it's easier to handle. In fairness, yes, i agree, both men and women can be controlling. However, in daily experience, i've noticed that men tend to be a lot more confident in their assumption of the right to control - to tell other people of both sexes how to do things - than women. A woman will more likely say, "Don't you think a helmet is a good idea?" and a man will more likely say "You gotta wear a helmet!" The legislation making helmets compulsory is likely to have originated in a lot of women's concern for children's heads, proceeded through a lot of nagging and argument, and passed because some man insisted. (I'd like to know the real story - i'm just making this up.)
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001
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'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248
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posted 19 March 2002 11:51 PM
early feminist literature is divided between these two options.... i've been dealing with this issue in a social & political thought class of late.
i'm just trying to get a sense of where modern feminists stand on this issue. (never really discussed these issues with feminists before)my own personal thoughts (although i may just be talking out of my ass here?) are that the diff's between men & women are mostly social constructions, but we kind of have to live with them for now at least. not that this difference is in the short term a bad thing.... a moderating voice to the REAL MANtm is helpful, imo
anyway, it seems to me that that the long term deconstruction of socializations can only lead to a deeper understanding between indiv's, moving the idea of difference to a purely individual level, and away from a sex based ideal. i guess i mean to say i don't believe we are at the core different because of sex - other than the obvious physical diff's. (i don't like the word gender - it seems itself a social construction)
however, the problem i see with 'sameness feminism', the early kind i've read about anyway, is that it seems to say that women have been socialized away from men, but ignores social constructs that affect men, and simply pushes women to be more like the REAL MANtm. (that doesn't seem like a healthy ideal to me, but what do i know) or have i just been too heavily influenced by the likes of joan tronto? (i thought moral boundaries was a pretty good book, but it just kinda died at the end....)
From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873
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posted 20 March 2002 09:56 AM
quote:
it seems to me that that the long term deconstruction of socializations can only lead to a deeper understanding between indiv's, moving the idea of difference to a purely individual level, and away from a sex based ideal. i guess i mean to say i don't believe we are at the core different because of sex - other than the obvious physical diff's. (i don't like the word gender - it seems itself a social construction)
I tend to agree with you, although I believe that some of our gender socialization is derived from biological differences, rooted in primitive survival behaviors. I actually prefer the word 'gender' simply because it, for me, encompasses more than basic biology and is less clinically definitive.Regardless, as Kaysarasara points out, women are still undervalued in society as compared to men (never mind race/class equity issues), and this, more than anything, is what feminism seeks to address, regardless of whether it's second wave, third wave, French, North American or African American feminism.
From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001
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