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Author Topic: impossible to recover?
wingtai
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posted 26 July 2007 10:08 AM      Profile for wingtai   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i notice lately in listening to what people have to say on radio, tv, public opinion, etc., on subject rape and/or sexual assault, some give the view that the consequence of being sexually assaulted, abused or raped, is a "life sentence", in so many words saying that it is impossible to heal or recover from such an experience being inflicted upon one. This point of view stirs some discomfort in me, as a woman, am i to take it on faith, almost as if this is now a new dogma, that "victims of sexual crime" can NEVER heal? and, by asking this question, am i "in denial"? Should a "victim" accept the declaration that the emotional consequences are a "life sentence"...no, you can't recover your life, you are forever victimized. Hey, don't shoot the messenger, this is simply the kind of thing I hear from various commentators on the media such as cbc radio, but also others, that, when discussing the sufficient (or insufficient) sentencing of those found guilty of sexual assault, that the victims are given a "life sentence" and that the nature of sexual assualt is such that a victim cannot ever have a normal life, will be forever victimized, well, i can only assume this is emotional victimization that can't be healed or changed, even by the victim him or herself. isn't this just the same as the old "woman as perpetual victim" assigned by patriarchal culture of old, therefore defeating the self-determining origins of feminism?
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Frustrated Mess
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posted 26 July 2007 10:32 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is not just rape it is any crime and in particular any crime of violence. Some people recover better than others. For some, healing never fully occurs.

Yesterday afternoon I was listening to the CBC and they interviewed the contractor describe how he keeps breaking down into tears following the discovery of the mummified baby.

We can't know how a crime will impact any one person and each person will deal with the impact differently. Some people will re-live the crimes in their heads over and over again always wondering "what if ...?" What if they walked a different way? What if they were stronger? What if it was their own fault?

Also, because of our cultures, religious mores, our upbringing, sexual crimes can also be crimes that our surrounded by stigma and shame. They are more difficult to talk about and talking can bring about some healing.

I think it is a mistake to further burden victims by suggesting they should get over it already. People need to be allowed to heal in their own way and time.

[ 26 July 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


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Naci_Sey
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posted 26 July 2007 11:36 AM      Profile for Naci_Sey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wingtai:
i notice lately in listening to what people have to say on radio, tv, public opinion, etc., on subject rape and/or sexual assault, some give the view that the consequence of being sexually assaulted, abused or raped, is a "life sentence", that it is impossible to heal or recover from such an experience. This view stirs some discomfort in me. as a woman, am i to take it that "victims of sexual crime" can NEVER heal? Should a "victim" accept the declaration that the emotional consequences are a "life sentence"... no, you can't recover your life. this is simply the kind of thing I hear from various commentators on the media but also others, that, when discussing sentencing of those found guilty of sexual assault, the victims are given a "life sentence" and the nature of sexual assault is such that a victim cannot ever have a normal life.

Traumatic events like rape are life-altering. A rape impedes the path that one was taking prior to the event. It both redirects one's course and adjusts one's speed. In that sense, one never 'recovers' or is able to recapture the life that once was or would have been had the rape never happened. As to whether a person ever heals from rape, I think it's more that such events get absorbed into who we are. That can't help but be the case.


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remind
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posted 26 July 2007 12:26 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Very well put Nancy, it becomes like a scar, a reminder of the physical wound that caused the permanent scar. Tissue that is significantly scarred also has a decreased ability to perform as it would have prior to the wound that caused the scar.

Moreover, our Limbic brain is where the physical or sexual assault impacts, and is where the wound is created. How it heals, or its ability to heal denotes recovery parameters and extent of scarring. Our basic responses to stimuli stem from this portion of our brain.


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Michelle
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posted 26 July 2007 12:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it depends on the person and the incident itself. I see what wingtai's saying.

Just from my completely unscientific and informal observations, from conversations with other women, I think sexual assault is much more common than even the high statistics we learn, if you include date rape, not stopping right away when a woman says stop, etc. And yet, most of us aren't walking wounded victims.

I think it probably depends on the severity and level of violence of the assault. And even then, I don't think it's necessarily a life sentence to misery.

I think remind has it right - I think it heals eventually for most people but becomes a scar. Eventually you don't think about it much, but if something triggers you, or you think about it, the emotions can come flooding back.


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wingtai
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posted 26 July 2007 10:24 PM      Profile for wingtai   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
and...it adds another burden to a victim to be hazed into believing that he or she can NEVER recover...i have heard people talking this way about the possibilities of outcomes...it is a burden of lack of hope...if all around one hears people who can help saying "a victim can never recover, it's a life sentence" and so on, then where can the person victimized find some hope that they can "get over it"? i have been a victim of assault/crime...i take exception to the suggestion that it is an additional burden that i consider and look forward to active ways to heal and recover. why should I give that much power to my tormenter that I can NEVER recover and actually buy into what someone has suggested is cultural stigma or something like that, and, furthermore, where in my questioning of what appears to me to be a tendency toward dwelling on victimization and victim mentality, did anyone suggest that healing and having hope and optimism is some kind of callous suggestion we should just "get over it".
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Michelle
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posted 27 July 2007 03:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, and perhaps it might add to a person's guilt, too, if they do "get over it" and are able to enjoy sex, they don't think about it that much anymore, etc. As if it makes their story less credible. If the stereotype of women who have been victims of rape is that they are emotionally stunted and damaged for life, then perhaps even rape survivors themselves might doubt themselves or their experience if they have managed to get over it to a large degree. And if you don't fit the "suffering victim" stereotype then perhaps others might not believe you either.
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Stargazer
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posted 27 July 2007 04:03 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
People recover (or not) from trauma in their own time, and with some help. First, those quotes around the word suffering victim bother me. Not because you said it, but because it implies there is something wrong with suffering and feeling pain over an extended period of time. As a rape victim, and as one who still cries, gets upset and has a problem with intimacy, those quotes mean "you are weak" "you can't have your own pain". I know that is not your intent, and that this is my own baggage but that is the guilt in me, and a lot of other women.

No one has a right to say when anyone should be over a rape. Or how they should deal with that pain and for how long. Each of us did not come into being a rape victim on equal footing. Some were victims as a child as well, and further rapes and assaults compound the problem. Some have access to great care, some don't. Some women are able to talk about their rape, so they are able to heal, but most of us are not. This culture does not allow us to talk about rape, and how it hurts, and how we can deal with it to at least function enough to live a good life.

The quotes, and imposing some type of time period to "get over it", and the suggestion that we, as victims, are perpetuating a stereotype is more than offensive to those of us who maybe can't get past the trauma as fast as others like. Maybe we're making people uncomfortable with our pain. Maybe we should be able to deal with our victimization as it works best for us, in a society that doesn't constantly put more guilt upon us by thinking we victims forever.

I hear it all the time when I'm having a trigger day - you need to get over it. You need to take the power back. Well you know what? It isn't that freaking easy. If it were, we'd all be walking bundles of normalcy. I, for one, would like to forget the rape, and move on so easily. Sorry it makes people uncomfortable but too bad. Just as my pain is not their problem, their comfort level with that pain is not my problem either.

Because isn't this really about making people feel comfortable about rape?


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Michelle
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posted 27 July 2007 04:10 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry, Stargazer. I hope you didn't think I was implying that. We've obviously had really different experiences. I think it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you don't present as a "damaged woman" then you're not believed. But if you take too long to "get over it" then you get criticized too.

I'm sorry if that's how it sounded. I don't want anyone to feel comfortable with rape. I just would like people to stop pigeon-holing women who have experienced it, especially since I believe that way more women have experienced sexual assault than we are led to believe by statistics.


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wingtai
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posted 27 July 2007 07:03 AM      Profile for wingtai   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well, no, this particular topic of posts is not about "making people feel comfortable with rape" but about questioning the trend in public opinion to characterize women (and other assault victims) as perpetual victims who have received a "life sentence" to live with unhealable suffering. doesn't that characterization rather fly in the face of the original spirit of feminist politics which was to call upon society as a whole to change it's view and seriously consider the idea that women are self-determining, individual human beings, and not to be defined always in terms of their sex/gender/biological condition.
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wingtai
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posted 27 July 2007 07:06 AM      Profile for wingtai   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
yes, Michelle, i believe you are probably right, more women (and most likely men) have been victims of sexual assault than the stats or public reports might indicate...and thus could we guess that at least some of those people figured out a way to "get over it", which does not mean that the experience was trivialized, but rather, they took back control somehow.
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Stargazer
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posted 27 July 2007 08:57 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You didn't read much of what I had to say. To dismiss this topic as not being about others comfortableness with rape is shortsighted and wrong, because this whole issue is related not to the rape victim, but to how other perceive her and her pain, and that pain is often deeply uncomfortable for others to deal with. It certainly is, whether you want to look at it that way or not.

And once again no - I and others like me are not perpetuating any stereotype. You are though, by following dominant male culture which dictates how long and how much we should have to feel about rape as victims. You can try to say we aren't victims, but we most certainly are and guess what? Victimhood does not, and is not a defining characteristic of who I am, and who other rape victims are. It is but a part of an entire whole.

To me, you seem to be the one pushing rape victims into getting over it, and then making us feel guilty because You feel we should be more empowered, otherwise what? we aren't good feminists?

You cannot take the crime out of the wider context in which it resides.


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writer
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posted 27 July 2007 09:18 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As anybody who frequents this board knows, I talk openly about being sexually assaulted, several times, since childhood.

I also do this in the real world, when it's relevant.

The silence around first-hand experiences of rape is stifling. People who have been raped hear a lot from people who haven't been raped. They talk about what it must be like to be raped all of the time. And we're told we can't talk about it, because we're too emotional, damaged, bitter, whatever.

It grows wearying.

When we *do* speak directly of our own experiences, we are usually met with awkward silences, open hostility, embarrassment, and doubt. Sometimes, we are met with a fellow survivor, who bursts at the opportunity to talk about what rape means, what happened, and who they've become because of it.

How does one recover from a violent patriarchal act when one still lives under the confines of patriarchy? I guess some of us can cope with the fact that we are a threat and a target, but it doesn't change the fact that we are a threat and a target. And for some of us, we are left haunted by the moment this terrible war against us became personal.

So I call bogus to the idea that some kind of infantalization results because we're told we'll be scarred for life.

The inability to express our own experiences without being jumped on is far more dibilitating.

This is a war that has no open language or acknowledgement. *That* is dibilitating.

[ 27 July 2007: Message edited by: writer ]


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kropotkin1951
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posted 27 July 2007 10:27 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I heard the CBC item spoken about above. I was taken aback by the statement that sexual assault victims never recover. Like all language the nuances are everything. Sexual assault changed me in many ways but since it happened many decades ago prior to becoming an adult it is really difficult to isolate the actual effects.

It is my believe that many victims of abuse suffer from PTSD and the literature says that about 50% of people who experience a serious traumatic event like rape or asssault recover from the worst and most severe effects within a year while others can take years or decades to get over the symtoms of PTSD.

The internal silencing experienced by me and many other victims means that for years the event was not dealt with and not spoken about. It was over twenty years after the events in my life before I told a single soul. I went to a counselor for anger management techniques because I was having difficulty in my second marriage and in about the third session I just blurted out that I had been abused over a period of years when I was an adolescent. I had never even told my spouses.

Since then I also often speak about it in the proper context. Being able to talk about it has helped me resolve many of the lingereing issues. It has also allowed me to rethink some of my youth. The "party animal" who almost self destructed in late teens and early twenties is no longer related the same way. I wasn't a child of the sixties experimenting, in retrospect I was on an extremely destrutive path that but for my first wife would likely have led to an early demise. But even though her trust love and affection allowed me to survive I could not even tell her what had happened.

Did it change my life? Of course. Did I recover? I think so but who really knows were the negative parts of their personality come from.


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writer
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posted 27 July 2007 10:41 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, kropotkin1951.
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remind
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posted 27 July 2007 10:56 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, it does not fly in the face of feminist political thought. In fact, it is quite the contrary. kropotkin touches upon this with his input of information regarding PTSD. And thank you for sharing kropotkin stargazer and writer.

Our rational brains can decide to "move on" all it wants and it does not mean a thing.

The injury happened to our physical body and the scars are held in our Limbic brain. The Limbic brain is our flight or fight response to stimulis brain that responds to triggers. All of this happens beyond the control of the rational mind.

For those assualted, the triggers to the Limbic brain can be smells, sights, noises, movements that are similar to the assault situation or situations that evoke a memory response of the assault. The Limbic brain goes into startle mode instantly, the rational brain then, if possible, impliments coping mechanisms or rational thought that calms/destresses the Limbic brain.

The responses of the Limbic brain can be, and are, varied from person to person and can go unrecognized even for what they are.

Those who do not accept and/or try to understand this scarring is beyond the rational mind's control and are trying to blame the victim for not getting over it. They are in serious denial, and are remaining ignorant to what happens physiologically to the person when a trigger occurs or what the person has experienced,or is, experiencing.

It has happened, scarring has occurred just as a physical wound has occurred leading to scarring, only you cannot see the scar with your eyes, though you may experience the results.

Imagine tellling a severe burn victim they are not scarred for life, it doesn't wash does it. Yes, they may, or may not have, accepted the changes to their physical self, dealt with the initial trauma, but they are still scarred for life and will have to always acknowledge the results. I.e. people starring, decreased movements, skin breakdown, personality changes etc.

The fact remains with the non-visible scarring results of assault, something at some time will trigger the Limbic brain and there will be observable results from that trigger. And that is what the assault victim will have to deal with, and those around them.


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Naci_Sey
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posted 27 July 2007 01:02 PM      Profile for Naci_Sey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree. It's not about willing oneself to a recovery either. In fact, the word 'recover' makes no sense applied to someone who has experienced a trauma-inducing event. It suggests that he/she will be able to go back to a certain point that preceded the event and then resume life from there. This is impossible.

No matter how we may resist it, rape changes how we view men and even how much we can trust any human being. It can affect the degree to which we become socially engaged. It can affect so many human interactions that the list is virtually unending.

As to PTSD, it tends to last a lifetime. If someone is extremely fortunately, their PTSD will rarely manifest itself. But it's very possible to go on with your life supposing that you're just fine, thank you very much, and then BAM some triggering event, which is itself innocent and non-threatening, sets you off into a tailspin. That describes my own experience.

Edited to add missing word.

[ 27 July 2007: Message edited by: Naci_Sey ]


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writer
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posted 27 July 2007 01:09 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Me, too.
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wingtai
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posted 27 July 2007 07:06 PM      Profile for wingtai   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well, far be it from me to define what my own experience is. if someone else says Nope you can't ever completely recover, well, I guess i should just accept that, who am I to say what my own experience is. these posts all seem to be saying that some people are sadly mistaken when they foolishly let thier rational mind convince them they are recovered. oh yes, i forgot, this is all about letting somebody else tell you what your experience is all about...how silly of me to go around "in denial" thinking i have moved on to a new place, tut tut tut, that is just undermining others who haven't. silly me.
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remind
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posted 27 July 2007 07:34 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wingtai:
well, far be it from me to define what my own experience is. if someone else says Nope you can't ever completely recover, well, I guess i should just accept that, who am I to say what my own experience is.

Actually wingtai, you are trying to define everybody else's experience based upon your own, while others, including myself, are saying it is different for everyone.


quote:
these posts all seem to be saying that some people are sadly mistaken when they foolishly let thier rational mind convince them they are recovered.

That would be your interpretation of what is being said. Was your question actually rhetorical then?

quote:
oh yes, i forgot, this is all about letting somebody else tell you what your experience is all about...how silly of me to go around "in denial" thinking i have moved on to a new place, tut tut tut, that is just undermining others who haven't. silly me.


What are doing here asking questions then wingtai, if you are not prepared to accept what other people have to say based upon their personal experiences? You are appear to be trying to deny others experiences, as opposed to others to denying yours, because they/we are not.

Moreover, you appear to be experiencing a high degree of anger about this.

How long has it been since you were assaulted, if you do not mind my asking?

[ 27 July 2007: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
wingtai
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posted 27 July 2007 08:06 PM      Profile for wingtai   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
nope, i'm not going to bite...it's about the growing "victimization" of society....and speaking of "angry", I think you doth protest too much.
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remind
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posted 27 July 2007 08:36 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wingtai:
nope, i'm not going to bite...it's about the growing "victimization" of society....and speaking of "angry", I think you doth protest too much.

hmmm well, you are more than welcome to see how you want, after all ist is about you and your victimization and how you are with it.

However, you have no right to impose your view points upon others. As others, including myself, are simply sharing their experiences and knowledge, not imposing upon what you experience. I would suggest many of us have years of experience in coping with the after math.

And no, there is no anger present in my words, if you have imposed anger upon them that too is your choice. And is something to look at within yourself.

Regarding society and victimization, it is a truth, and if our society was not reeling with dysfunctioning people, as a result of being victimized, you may have a leg to stand on.


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Slumberjack
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posted 28 July 2007 02:47 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sounds to me like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It's manifests itself distinctly in different individuals. Its not something that fades with the passage of time, and can be present many years later through behavioral symptoms that may appear to be normal because some people are able to develop their own coping mechanisms that mask the internal episodes. Its like a circle with high and low areas. For many it requires therapy to identify the low points of the circle, which can help a person to become aware to the point of identifying the need to self adjust within their own situation to begin the move towards some higher point on the circle. Its critical to be aware of, or at least have some internal reference of activities or things that could cause trigger moments. Emotions such as fear, guilt and helplessness, especially in circumstances where a person who has suffered a traumatic experience feels that the people around them are either unhelpful or indifferent, can cause the person to draw inward and make it more difficult in the long run to manage their life. For someone to come along and say 'just get over it' can be the worst thing that can happen to someone trying to cope.
From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 28 July 2007 03:08 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wingtai:
well, far be it from me to define what my own experience is. if someone else says Nope you can't ever completely recover, well, I guess i should just accept that, who am I to say what my own experience is. these posts all seem to be saying that some people are sadly mistaken when they foolishly let thier rational mind convince them they are recovered. oh yes, i forgot, this is all about letting somebody else tell you what your experience is all about...how silly of me to go around "in denial" thinking i have moved on to a new place, tut tut tut, that is just undermining others who haven't. silly me.

You say you've recovered and that's great. By turning such attention to those who say recovery is difficult if not impossible, in the manner that you have, sounds more like a coping mechanism, which would suggest that you are in fact doing just fine.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 28 July 2007 03:46 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Naci_Sey:
As to PTSD, it tends to last a lifetime. If someone is extremely fortunately, their PTSD will rarely manifest itself. But it's very possible to go on with your life supposing that you're just fine, thank you very much, and then BAM some triggering event, which is itself innocent and non-threatening, sets you off into a tailspin. That describes my own experience.
[ 27 July 2007: Message edited by: Naci_Sey ]

It took 12 years to determine that fetching frozen body parts from an air crash site may have played a role in significantly altering the 90s in very interesting ways. For me it was the simple act of retrieving a whole frozen salmon one day from the freezer for a BBQ. A charred frozen arm I once held immediately came to mind. It was 12 years after the incident. My default coping mechanism of blocking it all out over those years wasn't working any longer, if it had worked at all. It took awhile to examine the events of that decade, and longer still to admit that connections existed and influenced everything all along. I believe in actively seeking out the positive distractions in life rather than living in the shadow. It just takes more effort some days than others, and mostly it works. I'm still trying to determine if there's a connection in my change from conservative to socialist views during the mid-nineties. Sounding out on Babble certainly has been a positive influence. There really is a silver lining in every cloud.

[ 28 July 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 28 July 2007 06:03 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
I'm still trying to determine if there's a connection in my change from conservative to socialist views during the mid-nineties. Sounding out on Babble certainly has been a positive influence. There really is a silver lining in every cloud.

Thank you for sharing that slumberjack and your observations are pertinent.

Regarding the socialist ideological change there is no doubt in my mind that life altering events, where you can't just suck it up and move along make one more socialist in perception.

First, you really do not want others to have to experience what you are experiencing and to get help if they are, and the only way to do that is to instrument social change to try and halt,or make fewer, the type of incidents that cause it to happen, and ensure that the social help programs that are available continue to be there.

Secondly, you realize through not being able to suck it up and move along that the harsh non-empathetic nature of those who are more interested in profit margins and not people, is harmful to people and society and perpetuates cause factors.

Thirdly, you come into contact with people, who are acknowledging of your experience and more empathetic to you and it.

[ 28 July 2007: Message edited by: remind ]


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Slumberjack
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posted 28 July 2007 08:44 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
First, you really do not want others to have to experience what you are experiencing and to get help if they are, and the only way to do that is to instrument social change to try and halt,or make fewer, the type of incidents that cause it to happen, and ensure that the social help programs that are available continue to be there. Secondly, you realize through not being able to suck it up and move along that the harsh non-empathetic nature of those who are more interested in profit margins and not people, is harmful to people and society and perpetuates cause factors. Thirdly, you come into contact with people, who are acknowledging of your experience and more empathetic to you and it.
[ 28 July 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

Yes, that very much sums up where I'm at. For all the positive distractions, there are of course the dark intrusions to deal with. An aversion to human suffering juxtaposed against senseless influences such as 'shock an awe,' 'mission accomplished,' and all the other garbage force fed to us constantly. As for the intended subject of this thread, I can believe that the intensity must be magnified because of the extreme personal nature.

[ 28 July 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 28 July 2007 12:18 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Um slumberjack, was your experience in ontario? My father had much the same experience after his helping recover victims of a crash in woodbridge in the early 70s or late 60s (he didnt like to talk about it and I was way too young to understand anyway)
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10108

posted 29 July 2007 03:27 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
Um slumberjack, was your experience in ontario? My father had much the same experience after his helping recover victims of a crash in woodbridge in the early 70s or late 60s (he didnt like to talk about it and I was way too young to understand anyway)

No, it was on Ellesmere Island in 1991.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged

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