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Author Topic: Lost your Job yet? (CAW)
co-worker
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posted 26 November 2007 08:47 AM      Profile for co-worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is there anyone else out there whom feels the way I do? Foreign vehicle purchasing has run our Province into an ever widening toilette!!
The CAW in my opinion has not done enough to emphasize this point to the general public. Sure, there is an on going program of bumper stickers stating "Lost your job yet, keep buying foreign".
Effective, but not near enough. I have one on my own vehicle and you should see the faces I get from Toyota and Honda owners. One has to wonder if there hasn't been a resistance to putting everything into this effort because there are potential dues paying members in the new foreign vehicle factories coming to a home near you. I only say this in light of the new Magna sellout. Surely if the NEB can't come up with something better than this program to start some activism, the very intelligent writers of this page can develop some new ideas. Maybe you disagree?

[ 26 November 2007: Message edited by: co-worker ]


From: london | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 26 November 2007 03:26 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First, define "foreign vehicle". Do you mean "not the big three" or do you mean cars manufactured abroad.

Fact is that a very large percentage of so called "foreign" cars are manufactured in North America.

But the solution is a lot simpler than an advertising campaign. Just get the "American" car companies to make cars that people want to buy. Absent that there isn't an advertising campaign on the planet that can make a difference.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 26 November 2007 03:51 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by abnormal:
get the "American" car companies to make cars that people want to buy

What a novel concept.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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Babbler # 214

posted 27 November 2007 02:17 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And how much of the Big Three parts are made off shore?

What I've noticed in automobiles is while Japanese and Korean manufacturers "evolve" a car, the Big Three tends to just change the name of a vehicle and keep the engineering errors.

I think the Big Three have a nearly century old tradition of putting style ahead of performance, while the Japanese and now the Koreans are free from that culture.

Every one talks about wages and such, but the fact is, we are being out engineered and out managed by the Japanese and Koreans, not out worked.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 27 November 2007 03:25 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lost your life yet? Get the f*ck outa your car and walk!



From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Wizard of Socialism
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posted 27 November 2007 06:17 AM      Profile for The Wizard of Socialism   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was a time when unions were a good thing. The industrial revoloution was crushing the working people. But now things have swung too far the other way. Now we have people with grade eight education making $40. an hour to do the simplest tasks on the automobile assembly line. They can drink on the job, steal stuff, or just not show up. It doesn't matter. Short of killing a baby and eating it on the premises, there is nothing they can't get away with. Because of the union. The very word union has become synonymous with poor quality and high cost. I'm not advocating a return to the bad old days, just a little dose of economic reality. Right now, in Saskatchewan, CUPE is holding our university students hostage. They're on strike because a 17.9% wage increase in a time of 2.9% inflation isn't enough. They've got perks and benefits that would boggle your mind, but because they're union, it will never be enough. We should all show solidarity with our student brothers and sisters against this outrage. Because the union wants an ivory backscratcher for every one of it's members, innocent kids, just trying to learn, suffer. Yeah, I drive a Toyota. I had two Saturns. The first one, made outside the UAW collective agreement, was top notch. The second one, made inside it, was a total piece of crap. I couldn't get a third of what I paid for it ten months later. Never again. You've killed the golden goose, unionistas. No one wants to buy your shoddy, overpriced crap anymore. I suggest you learn the proper way to make french fries.

[ 27 November 2007: Message edited by: The Wizard of Socialism ]


From: A Proud Canadian! | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 27 November 2007 06:27 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wiz, between union-bashing and the Green-bashing you just can't seem to help engaging in, you're way over the line.

Because you've been here for ages and because you often contribute well to this forum, I'm going to give you one last warning before suspending your account. Anti-union rants like this won't be tolerated. And you need to stop the over-the-top vitriol against the Green Party (which I received a complaint about in the last 24 hours).

I like you, but you're not leaving me much choice here when you pull this kind of stuff here.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 27 November 2007 06:49 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Like it or not,we live in a supply and demand commanded economy.Engineering and medical expertise to name two disciplines is in demand worldwide while lower skills such as assemblyline work is not.

The difference between union and free market jobs is that when supply exceeds demand in the free market,the reaction is instantanious whereas in the union jobs,their agreement may stipulate certain protocols,accompanied by an economic benefit to address oversupply.

High wage levels and job security do not go hand in hand in the free market.

It is not merely a matter of better engineering. Foreign car manufacturers in Canada have better processes and are much more productive than the Big three.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
co-worker
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posted 27 November 2007 06:58 AM      Profile for co-worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would have to agree with Tommy when he states the big three have been out managed and engineered. From personal experience I can say management were closed minded about everything that was presented to them and engineering seemed to believe they were infallible and no suggestion brought from the shop-floor could hold merit.
To the wizard of Socialism I would have say thanks for showing your true colors. Another stereo-typing conservative troll. There are no $40.00 an hour assembly jobs in Canada that I know of to start. Second, even in my Big three plant, a pre-requisite for consideration was a grade 12, then it required mechanical, electrical, or plumbing experience of some sort. The wizard sounds like someone who needs to experience a week of brain numbing work on an assembly line, to appreciate that the wages are justified. Does s/he really believe assembly workers do their jobs by choice.

From: london | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 27 November 2007 07:36 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does being poorly educated mean a person should starve? No wonder I hate conservatives. No wonder the unfettered "free market" can only be imposed at the point of a gun.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 27 November 2007 08:54 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Does being poorly educated mean a person should starve? No wonder I hate conservatives. No wonder the unfettered "free market" can only be imposed at the point of a gun.

Whatever are you on about?

Being poorly educated means having less opportunities or options. By free market,I refer to independent workers without any collective agreement or other form of negotiating clout other than demand in the job market.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 27 November 2007 09:13 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am on about this:

quote:
The industrial revoloution was crushing the working people. But now things have swung to far the other way. Now we have people with grade eight education making $40. an hour to do the simplest tasks on the automobile assembly line.

Putting aside the outrageous monetary amount, why shouldn't a person with a grade 8 eductaion be entitled to a living wage?

quote:
Being poorly educated means having less opportunities or options.

That doesn't mean the available opportunities and options should involve slavery, exploitation, hunger, or the stripping of dignity.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Free_Radical
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posted 27 November 2007 09:20 AM      Profile for Free_Radical     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by co-worker:
Foreign vehicle purchasing has run our Province into an ever widening toilette!! . . . bumper stickers stating "Lost your job yet, keep buying foreign".

Why should foreign workers be denied an opportunity to sell their product in the Canadian market?

I'd prefer not to discriminate against people based on where they live.


From: In between . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 27 November 2007 09:34 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why should foreign workers be denied an opportunity to sell their product in the Canadian market?

I'd prefer not to discriminate against people based on where they live.



I love the language of neo-cons. Now, finally, after forever and ever, the product belongs to the workers who produced it. Wow!

And neo-cons who trumpet the right to discriminate, now worry about discrimination "against people based on where they live". Those workers are finally people, to boot.

God bless 'im.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Free_Radical
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posted 27 November 2007 09:44 AM      Profile for Free_Radical     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
I love the language of neo-cons. Now, finally, after forever and ever, the product belongs to the workers who produced it. Wow!

Doesn't matter who "owns" it - they'll be the ones left unemployed if you choose to discriminate against them, their employers and the products they produce.

quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
And neo-cons who trumpet the right to discriminate, now worry about discrimination "against people based on where they live".

I don't know where you get the idea that I discriminate against anyone on any basis. It's just amusing how discrimination based on country of origin, or where someone lives (don't buy those cars made by foreigners! They're not even Canadian!), has suddenly become acceptable to so-called progressives.

[ 27 November 2007: Message edited by: Free_Radical ]


From: In between . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 27 November 2007 09:54 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Doesn't matter who "owns" it

No? Then why are all you neo-con types always on about property rights? Suddenly it doesn't matter "who owns it". Suddenly the right is left of Marx. Suddenly they are giving back to the commons. And it is all about jobs, not profits. Who said profits?
quote:

they'll be the ones left unemployed if you choose to discriminate against them, their employers and the products they produce.


You see, it is all about them the workers. The neo-cons just want them to have jobs. That's all. Their young children too!

quote:

I don't know where you get the idea that I discriminate against anyone on any basis. It's just amusing how discrimination based on country of origin, or where someone lives (don't buy those cars made by foreigners! They're not even Canadian!), has suddenly become acceptable to so-called progressives.

Oh, I don't think neo-cons discriminate against people. I think neo-cons are equal opportunity exploiters. But it isn't people we are talking about here, is it? It is those products we all now jointly own. I assume Wal-Mart will no longer be charging for plastic shit if we can prove we work for a living, right? After all, it all belongs to the workers and you certainly don't care about who owns it.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 27 November 2007 09:56 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Free_Radical:

Why should foreign workers be denied an opportunity to sell their product in the Canadian market?.

You'd better renew your membership with the anti-communist league of capitalist dogs, because they'll boot you out for saying things like that.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
co-worker
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posted 27 November 2007 10:01 AM      Profile for co-worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dare any of you open the discussion to something of fair trade, leave discrimination out of it.
From: london | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
windsorworker
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posted 27 November 2007 10:02 AM      Profile for windsorworker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why should foreign workers be denied an opportunity to sell their product in the Canadian market?
Well one reason is we as in Canadians cannot sell our products in their countries .Simple stuff really.

From: windsor | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Free_Radical
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posted 27 November 2007 10:06 AM      Profile for Free_Radical     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by windsorworker:
Well one reason is we as in Canadians cannot sell our products in their countries .Simple stuff really.

China, Japan, India, Brazil, etc. don't buy Canadian goods? Get real.

From: In between . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 27 November 2007 12:15 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Someone must be buying Canadian goods: we've been running a trade surplus since 1994.
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 27 November 2007 01:51 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, it was the Americans, and that seems to be changing for some reason.

Clasist full of shit lies by lying liars aside, foreign auto makers who locate here don't seem to have a problem with us dummies in the working class, and don't have a problem paying union wages and still making a decent car at comparable prices.

The recipe isn't difficult. Without much of a military industrial complex siphoning off the best engineering minds, Japan's consumer industries have had the pick of the litter that way for decades. All they had to do is look at G.M,'s planned obsolescence model, and make parts that lasted a bit longer.

Given that most of us boomers have been stung by their first used vehicles that started to fall apart around the 80,000 mile marker, and continued to fall apart until it rusted prematurely, even if they are making a better product now, many just don't trust them. For good reason.

Nissan issued a recall today because of a cam shaft sensor that could lead a car to stall at low or idle speeds.

In the Big Three, that would be called a "characteristic".


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
jester
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Babbler # 11798

posted 28 November 2007 07:20 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
I am on about this:

Putting aside the outrageous monetary amount, why shouldn't a person with a grade 8 eductaion be entitled to a living wage?

That doesn't mean the available opportunities and options should involve slavery, exploitation, hunger, or the stripping of dignity.


I know people who can't spell "cat" who earn well over $100k/year. Education reduces options but there are plenty of high paying jobs for artisans,craftsmen and skilled trades who have the ability to negotiate for themselves.

These days though,those options are coming to an end as advanced computer skills are required for almost all manufacturing.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 28 November 2007 07:46 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I know people who can't spell "cat" who earn well over $100k/year.

Somehow I don't believe that.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 28 November 2007 08:01 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

I know people who can't spell "cat" who earn well over $100k/year.


How much do you earn? You just spelled CAW wrong.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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Babbler # 12603

posted 28 November 2007 08:30 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CO-Worker:

quote:
Is there anyone else out there whom feels the way I do? Foreign vehicle purchasing has run our Province into an ever widening toilette!!

Yes, I do agree with your point here... But I think we'll differ alot in the cause of this.

The "Lost your job yet, keep buying foreign" slogan is basically blaming the consumer public for the companies failing to build a product that can compete with the competition. I think you need to question what is happening when 'Buying Foreign Vehicles is causing Canadians to lose thier jobs' is pretty close to the only marketable attribute of the big three's products.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 28 November 2007 08:33 AM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

I know people who can't spell "cat" who earn well over $100k/year.


I've never met anyone like this but
I believe it's true.

From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Michael Hardner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2595

posted 28 November 2007 08:43 AM      Profile for Michael Hardner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wizard,

quote:
There was a time when unions were a good thing. The industrial revoloution was crushing the working people. But now things have swung too far the other way. Now we have people with grade eight education making $40. an hour to do the simplest tasks on the automobile assembly line. They can drink on the job, steal stuff, or just not show up. It doesn't matter. Short of killing a baby and eating it on the premises, there is nothing they can't get away with. Because of the union. The very word union has become synonymous with poor quality and high cost. I'm not advocating a return to the bad old days, just a little dose of economic reality. Right now, in Saskatchewan, CUPE is holding our university students hostage. They're on strike because a 17.9% wage increase in a time of 2.9% inflation isn't enough. They've got perks and benefits that would boggle your mind, but because they're union, it will never be enough. We should all show solidarity with our student brothers and sisters against this outrage. Because the union wants an ivory backscratcher for every one of it's members, innocent kids, just trying to learn, suffer. Yeah, I drive a Toyota. I had two Saturns. The first one, made outside the UAW collective agreement, was top notch. The second one, made inside it, was a total piece of crap. I couldn't get a third of what I paid for it ten months later. Never again. You've killed the golden goose, unionistas. No one wants to buy your shoddy, overpriced crap anymore. I suggest you learn the proper way to make french fries.

There are many mistakes in your post, but I'll only address a few.

First of all, the idea that quality is borne 100% on the backs of the workers is ridiculous. Poor quality is a hallmark of poor management, and I'd say a particular hallmark of poor North American management.

Secondly, you didn't provide a link for your example, nor a context. There may be more to the story than the simple wage issue. I worked for an employer where an organized group asked for a 30% increase and it was not even contested, because that position had gained a great amount of importance in the organization, and management wanted to make sure they had the best people there.

Thirdly, the $40 an hour figure certainly seems high and, again, you didn't cite where you got that from. The latest top wage figure I can get for Toyota is $31.60/hr from 2005, not including benefits.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michael Hardner
rabble-rouser
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posted 28 November 2007 09:07 AM      Profile for Michael Hardner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some interesting ideas in this thread, including a misconception that intelligence = wealth, or that financial success is supposed to be karmic.

I have met many people much smarter than you who are poorer than you, whoever you are.

To me, wealth a financial success is like the kid at the birthday party who grabs the biggest piece of cake before anyone else. Sure there is some cunning that's involved there, along with a modicum of intelligence, craftiness, selfishness etc. etc.

Contemporary debates between left and right are basically a discussion about what to do about that kid. We haven't figured out a way to get rid of him, but we shouldn't let him do whatever he wants to do either.

To the point of the thread, I am disappointed that the unions haven't been more successful in reaching out to workers abroad. The free trade pact is twenty years old now, so it's not like they couldn't see this coming.

CAW members in Oshawa, when not voting for Mike Harris (sorry, I couldn't resist) have enjoyed the cheaper prices for goods that have resulted from globalism for a long time, so it's a little annoying for those of us who were globalized years ago to hear them start to complain now, just as their industry is waking up to the 'realities of the marketplace'. ( euphemism used ironically )

As for what to do about it... the time window has passed to prevent free trade from happening... accentuate the positive and take the bad with the good. For example, we're a lot less dependent on the US than we were.

Hopefully, when new cars cost $10K in fifteen years or so, we'll all use that extra money to pay for mandatory air scrubbers on all the cars and all the new factories that have been built.... in China.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 28 November 2007 09:17 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
CAW members in Oshawa, when not voting for Mike Harris (sorry, I couldn't resist) have enjoyed the cheaper prices for goods that have resulted from globalism for a long time, so it's a little annoying for those of us who were globalized years ago to hear them start to complain now, just as their industry is waking up to the 'realities of the marketplace'.

Yeah, I saw a GM van yesterday with a bumper sticker that read "Still have a job? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN" pulling into a Wal-Mart where 70% of what is sold is ... foreign.

I wonder how that escaped my van driver?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michael Hardner
rabble-rouser
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posted 28 November 2007 09:26 AM      Profile for Michael Hardner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yeah, I saw a GM van yesterday with a bumper sticker that read "Still have a job? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN" pulling into a Wal-Mart where 70% of what is sold is ... foreign.

I wonder how that escaped my van driver?


It's fascinating how people don't understand things that are right in front of their faces. I have never set foot in a WAL MART, although I've only had to avoid it once or twice, and only slightly - in a capitalist society there's always somebody around the corner who is ready to sell you the same thing.

Another thing I have never understood. WAL MART seems so Soviet to me - like the GUM store in Moscow. It's utilitarian and economies of scale for everything in there.

What is up with that ?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 28 November 2007 10:05 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As for what to do about it... the time window has passed to prevent free trade from happening... accentuate the positive and take the bad with the good. For example, we're a lot less dependent on the US than we were.

...perhaps you could explain why you think so?


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michael Hardner
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posted 28 November 2007 10:49 AM      Profile for Michael Hardner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The statistic I heard (CBC Radio) was that we're down to 75% of our trade being with the US. When I was a young'n, it was 90%.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 28 November 2007 10:56 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't see it, myself.
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michael Hardner
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posted 28 November 2007 11:00 AM      Profile for Michael Hardner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That chart shows exports to the US fell from about 84% to about 79% 2001-2006.

That's only 5 years... and a drop of 5%.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 28 November 2007 11:33 AM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unfortunately, StatsCan makes you pay for this sort of thing, unless you work for a place who has a subscription. Here are the numbers for the US share of exports (per cent) going back to 1980.

1980Q1 66.3040
1980Q2 61.7195
1980Q3 62.1772
1980Q4 65.0490
1981Q1 65.5239
1981Q2 66.7900
1981Q3 68.4293
1981Q4 66.7537
1982Q1 67.2378
1982Q2 68.2910
1982Q3 69.3825
1982Q4 70.4705
1983Q1 72.7084
1983Q2 72.4367
1983Q3 73.2985
1983Q4 74.6264
1984Q1 76.8232
1984Q2 76.1080
1984Q3 75.1879
1984Q4 76.6861
1985Q1 77.6500
1985Q2 79.6684
1985Q3 79.2800
1985Q4 78.4902
1986Q1 78.7889
1986Q2 78.9003
1986Q3 77.5546
1986Q4 76.8455
1987Q1 76.4784
1987Q2 75.1244
1987Q3 76.3266
1987Q4 75.5828
1988Q1 74.4765
1988Q2 73.4576
1988Q3 73.1868
1988Q4 72.3453
1989Q1 73.5280
1989Q2 74.8097
1989Q3 72.7428
1989Q4 72.9291
1990Q1 73.1087
1990Q2 73.0296
1990Q3 73.5083
1990Q4 73.8359
1991Q1 72.8386
1991Q2 72.9077
1991Q3 74.5890
1991Q4 73.8282
1992Q1 74.1307
1992Q2 75.2479
1992Q3 75.5434
1992Q4 76.8191
1993Q1 77.6600
1993Q2 78.1385
1993Q3 78.6722
1993Q4 79.0072
1994Q1 79.4314
1994Q2 79.6546
1994Q3 79.2879
1994Q4 79.0734
1995Q1 78.2664
1995Q2 77.2039
1995Q3 77.1099
1995Q4 77.4870
1996Q1 78.6287
1996Q2 79.8017
1996Q3 79.6546
1996Q4 79.5944
1997Q1 79.2635
1997Q2 79.6877
1997Q3 80.0052
1997Q4 80.7878
1998Q1 80.7464
1998Q2 81.8105
1998Q3 82.9494
1998Q4 83.6267
1999Q1 83.5307
1999Q2 83.9249
1999Q3 84.2054
1999Q4 83.3993
2000Q1 83.0904
2000Q2 83.4402
2000Q3 83.5325
2000Q4 84.3369
2001Q1 84.1073
2001Q2 83.8227
2001Q3 83.8501
2001Q4 82.9640
2002Q1 83.8036
2002Q2 83.8569
2002Q3 84.2029
2002Q4 83.4217
2003Q1 83.1332
2003Q2 82.3983
2003Q3 82.6629
2003Q4 81.4593
2004Q1 81.7689
2004Q2 81.7258
2004Q3 81.9271
2004Q4 81.4079
2005Q1 81.7808
2005Q2 80.9858
2005Q3 81.3006
2005Q4 81.9504
2006Q1 80.7866
2006Q2 80.1049
2006Q3 78.7589
2006Q4 77.2410
2007Q1 77.2795
2007Q2 75.7789

[ 28 November 2007: Message edited by: Stephen Gordon ]


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michael Hardner
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posted 28 November 2007 11:49 AM      Profile for Michael Hardner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmm....

I could see why it would increase after the late 1980s but why did it go up so drastically from 1980 until then ?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 28 November 2007 12:01 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was a recession around that time in the US (and Canada), so much of that rise was a bounce back from a low base. The share fluctuated in the 60-70% range during the 1970's.
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jabberwock
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posted 28 November 2007 12:53 PM      Profile for Jabberwock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I might be wrong, but is it not the case that Toyoto is the only Auto Company in ON that is not laying off workers?

And if they are paying union-equivelant wages, I will be happy to continue buying Toyota. My current Toyota is a 97 and nothing has gone wrong with it other than one rear seatbelt getting permanently stuck.

I don't think I would get that kind of quality with Ford.


From: Vancouver | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 28 November 2007 05:48 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

How much do you earn? You just spelled CAW wrong.


Well over $100k/year.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 November 2007 06:56 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
First of all, the idea that quality is borne 100% on the backs of the workers is ridiculous. Poor quality is a hallmark of poor management, and I'd say a particular hallmark of poor North American management.

Yep that's right. Unions don't design cars, and unions aren't the ones deciding to pay blue chip dividends while the big three lose market share.

And Toyota's 58, 000 unionized workers in Japan negotiate twice a year and usually receive decent performance bonuses.

U.S. car companies should start pensioning off and doing clean sweeps of key management departments and bring in new blood.

North American car companies can't afford to prop up private health insurers in the U.S. anymore. U.S. capitalism in general was handed a prescription for socialized medicine a number of years ago. U.S. capitalists fell in-inline with a number of socialist measures to save their economy beginning in the 1930's - so this should not be that difficult a red pill for them to swallow. They've got to ditch stubborn ideologues and the right-wing insurance lobby to save the export economy.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 29 November 2007 04:35 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

Well over $100k/year.


Which brings us back to Michael's point:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
Some interesting ideas in this thread, including a misconception that intelligence = wealth, or that financial success is supposed to be karmic.

I have met many people much smarter than you who are poorer than you, whoever you are.

To me, wealth a financial success is like the kid at the birthday party who grabs the biggest piece of cake before anyone else. Sure there is some cunning that's involved there, along with a modicum of intelligence, craftiness, selfishness etc. etc.

Contemporary debates between left and right are basically a discussion about what to do about that kid. We haven't figured out a way to get rid of him, but we shouldn't let him do whatever he wants to do either.



From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
co-worker
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posted 29 November 2007 06:42 AM      Profile for co-worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
O.K Stephen Gordon how about a comparison of Canadian exports and imports with Japan? Those are the numbers that will support my opinion I believe.
From: london | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 29 November 2007 06:52 AM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Billions of current (i.e., not corrected for inflation) dollars:

Year Imp-all Imp-Jap Exp-all Exp-Japan

1971 15,313.7 803.1 17,782.4 831.0
1972 18,271.5 1,071.5 20,222.0 964.8
1973 22,725.7 996.4 25,648.8 1,789.1
1974 30,903.0 1,412.4 32,738.2 2,219.3
1975 33,961.6 1,188.5 33,616.4 2,139.9
1976 36,607.5 1,505.9 38,166.4 2,344.9
1977 41,523.0 1,774.3 44,495.1 2,424.7
1978 49,047.9 2,248.8 53,361.0 2,987.6
1979 61,157.0 2,111.0 65,581.5 3,898.0
1980 67,902.6 2,810.4 76,680.5 4,275.4
1981 77,139.9 4,044.6 84,432.1 4,591.6
1982 66,738.5 3,551.7 84,392.7 4,616.0
1983 73,098.3 4,354.5 90,555.6 4,787.3
1984 91,492.6 5,477.1 111,330.1 5,715.4
1985 102,669.4 6,063.4 119,061.4 5,596.6
1986 115,195.0 7,645.8 125,171.9 6,005.7
1987 119,324.3 7,567.7 131,484.0 7,310.6
1988 132,714.9 8,024.6 143,533.8 8,997.8
1989 139,216.5 8,365.9 146,963.1 9,285.3
1990 140,999.9 8,319.6 152,055.5 8,538.0
1991 140,657.9 8,748.5 147,669.4 7,644.2
1992 154,429.6 8,913.3 163,463.5 8,253.7
1993 177,123.2 8,477.4 190,213.1 9,184.5
1994 207,872.5 8,315.4 228,167.1 10,788.5
1995 229,936.5 8,427.6 265,333.9 13,286.1
1996 237,688.6 7,227.4 280,079.3 12,423.4
1997 277,726.5 8,711.0 303,378.2 11,925.5
1998 303,398.6 9,671.8 327,161.5 9,745.8
1999 327,026.0 10,592.2 369,034.9 10,125.9
2000 362,336.7 11,729.8 429,372.2 11,297.4
2001 350,071.2 10,571.9 420,730.4 10,120.8
2002 356,727.1 11,732.6 414,038.5 10,115.0
2003 342,709.5 10,645.5 399,122.1 9,799.5
2004 363,308.1 10,087.2 429,067.1 9,839.2
2005 388,281.7 11,215.9 451,783.0 10,319.1
2006 404,394.6 11,882.5 455,696.5 10,455.3


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 29 November 2007 07:03 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Our Liberal and Conservative party stoogeocrats can't give Canada away to the Americans fast enough. What's afta McNAFTA ? What's next is McCustoms union, McTakeovers financed by Canada's "deep six" banks(your money), and corporate America making McHappy meals of our economic sovereignty.

quote:
Hewers of Wood

After hundreds of years of trying to develop value-added industries in this country and get away from the "hewers of wood, drawers of water" dependence on extracting natural resources, NAFTA, through the proportional sharing clause, has encouraged a structural change in our economy, back to the old resource-dependent model.

"In 2005, for the first time in a generation, more than half of our total merchandise exports from Canada once again consisted of raw materials and natural resources." - Jim Stanford, Ph.D. economist.


[ 29 November 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
co-worker
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posted 29 November 2007 07:26 AM      Profile for co-worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank-you S.G. We can certainly see the growing Japanese auto-market from the 80's up. Now all I need is someone to show auto-motive (good paying, benifits, and pensions) manufacturing job loss in Canada since 1980. Not just the Big three, but the thousands of supplier jobs that went hand in hand. Maybe, one of our proud Gov. officials can show us how many Mc tele-phone soliciter jobs have been created over that time frame because apparently job loss is not an issue here. Un-employment is at an all time low, can I be more sarcastic!
From: london | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 29 November 2007 09:05 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jester:

Well over $100k/year.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which brings us back to Michael's point:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
Some interesting ideas in this thread, including a misconception that intelligence = wealth, or that financial success is supposed to be karmic.
I have met many people much smarter than you who are poorer than you, whoever you are.

To me, wealth a financial success is like the kid at the birthday party who grabs the biggest piece of cake before anyone else. Sure there is some cunning that's involved there, along with a modicum of intelligence, craftiness, selfishness etc. etc.

Contemporary debates between left and right are basically a discussion about what to do about that kid. We haven't figured out a way to get rid of him, but we shouldn't let him do whatever he wants to do either.


Your envy and bitterness aside,Mr Jesus, its quite simple really. Get up at 5 am,go to work,get home at 8 and do it all over again.

It is most likely a very strange concept to you that many people enjoy working and do so after their monetary needs are met simply because it is fulfilling.

How about the elderly schoolteacher who never married,lived frugally and leaves a multimillion dollar estate.

No, reality gets in the way of your need to claim anyone who works hard and accumulates assets is greedy and selfish.

I wonder how many babblers have well paying positions,live frugally and invest for their retirement?


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Farmpunk
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posted 30 November 2007 03:16 AM      Profile for Farmpunk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It'll be very interesting to watch what happens when Chinese and India made vehicles start showing up in NA. Mahindra.

From what I've read Mahindra already sells tractors and utility equipment in Canada. They're about to target a market that hasn't been well served for two decades: true trucks, utilitarian more than showpiece. Turbo diesels with reportedly good fuel mileage. The big three still do well with their full and mid-size trucks, but the vehicles are completely over-styled and are basically luxury vehicles with an open trunk. Ask any construction people, or farmers, or well punchers, about the quality of the big three trucks and the options for buying new. A team of cement skreeters jumping in a brand new Ford F150. It's not a pretty picture. I think Mahindra will eventually take a big chunk out of that market - IF the quality is there.

The big three are living off their parts supplying businesses. Build vehicles that break down or vehicles that are literally programmed to demand service at regular intervals. Brakes, especially. Want to see people freak out - wait until one of those idiot lights fires up, anti-lock brakes being a prominent idiot light.

Never buy a GM truck. Close to a thousand dollars for a standard brake job. And if the truck is being used as intended, for truck purposes, then you're looking at a complete brake job per year as a standard operating cost. There was a reason why Ford and Dodge trucks went back to rear drum brakes, but GM stubbornly insists on keeping four wheel disc. The difference in performance is negligable, but the parts cut is a lot higher with the "improved technology".


From: SW Ontario | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michael Hardner
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posted 30 November 2007 05:51 AM      Profile for Michael Hardner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
jester

quote:
Your envy and bitterness aside,Mr Jesus, its quite simple really. Get up at 5 am,go to work,get home at 8 and do it all over again.

It is most likely a very strange concept to you that many people enjoy working and do so after their monetary needs are met simply because it is fulfilling.

How about the elderly schoolteacher who never married,lived frugally and leaves a multimillion dollar estate.

No, reality gets in the way of your need to claim anyone who works hard and accumulates assets is greedy and selfish.

I wonder how many babblers have well paying positions,live frugally and invest for their retirement?


I don't think I said anything about working.

Unless you're a bank executive or an NBA star, you're likely not getting rich by cashing a paycheque.

The kid in the analogy is the capitalist. And as I mentioned we can't get rid of him, as in 'if we try to get rid of him the system fails'.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 30 November 2007 06:03 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I wonder how many babblers have well paying positions,live frugally and invest for their retirement?
Wheras I wonder how long you'll get away with questioning the accumen of everyone here, jester.

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 November 2007 06:08 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
The kid in the analogy is the capitalist. And as I mentioned we can't get rid of him, as in 'if we try to get rid of him the system fails'.

Electoral and economic-monetary reform are what they fear most. One single democratized society is what they fear most, like the CIA's obssession with domino effect.

CIA spooks are fanned out all over for December second, from Caracas to Cabimas.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 30 November 2007 06:28 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
Your envy and bitterness aside,Mr Jesus, its quite simple really. Get up at 5 am,go to work,get home at 8 and do it all over again.

It is most likely a very strange concept to you that many people enjoy working and do so after their monetary needs are met simply because it is fulfilling.


If you were really so 'fulfilled', you wouldn't need to hang around here taking potshots at people who don't share your values.

I go to work at 8 o'clock and get home at 5. I don't expect to get all my satisfaction from a job, but rather from the family, friends and community that I leave myself time for.

Not that I've been unsuccessful in my endeavors, as you seem to so fervently hope.

[ 30 November 2007: Message edited by: Lard Tunderin' Jeezus ]


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 30 November 2007 06:27 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
jester

I don't think I said anything about working.

Unless you're a bank executive or an NBA star, you're likely not getting rich by cashing a paycheque.

The kid in the analogy is the capitalist. And as I mentioned we can't get rid of him, as in 'if we try to get rid of him the system fails'.


Thanks for the clarification. Your original intent was clear to me.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 01 December 2007 06:04 AM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ontario will be the biggest loser in auto production among jurisdictions in North America during the next five years, according to a leading industry journal.

Vehicle output in the province will slide more than 600,000 vehicles over the period to about 2.2 million cars and trucks a year by 2012, Ward's Automotive Reports says in its latest forecast.

If the forecast becomes reality, it would reduce annual auto production in the province to its lowest level since the early 1990s.

It would mean more big job cuts and a further blow to the province's struggling manufacturing sector. The vehicle losses in the forecast represent two vehicle plants operating at almost full capacity and several thousand of jobs in assembly and parts production.

Ward's also predicts Chrysler will eliminate another shift at its Windsor minivan plant and Ford will close its St. Thomas operation.


http://www.wheels.ca/article/34563


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 December 2007 09:11 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"At this point, Ontario is the highest cost jurisdiction for the international auto industry," he said. "If the CAW addresses that, there will be a lot of future opportunity."

Ontario lost more than 175, 000 good-paying manufacturing and forestry sector jobs since electing the Liberals in 2003.

The Liberals held back from allocating $500 million dollars in grants and loans promised to Ontario's forestry industries while we bled jobs.

Ontario has the highest industrial hydro power rates in the country. What we need is a regional power pricing scheme and to stop the porkbarelling salaries and immoral and unsustainable pay packages at Hydro One and Ontario Power Generation as the NDP has recommended for several years while the McGuinty Liberals stalled with expensive studies which have essentially revealed to them that they needed to act several years ago.

Still there is no response from our dead end Liberal government. Their answer to the power pricing crisis today is a bottomless nuclear money pit expected to produce new power sometime ten years down the road. They wull funnel anywhere from $45-$75 billion dollars into another Darlington nuclear megafiasco while Ontario will continue to hemorhage good paying manufacturing jobs to other provinces and U.S. states. Our phony majority Liberals, with just 22% of eligible voter support behind them, have done nothing to address these issues in the here and now. Their beady little eye light up at the prospects for commissions from wildly expensive nuclear power contracts which we will be paying through the nose for with artificially high power rates for decades to come. McGuinty was fresh out of ideas on day one of his job as Ontario premier.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 02 December 2007 12:45 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Up in the middle of the night with indigestion (ate rich and spicy indian much too late), I came across an interesting program on the BBC:The Happiness Formula
quote:
According to happiness research, friendship has a much bigger effect on average on happiness than a typical person's income itself.

One economist, Professor Oswald at Warwick University, has a formula to work out how much extra cash we would need to make up for not having friends.

The answer is £50,000.


£50,000 = $100,000

So it seems our friend jester might be happy this year after all.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 02 December 2007 03:27 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And what if we combined a 400 million dollar taxpayer cash infusion into the auto parts sector in Ontario, with a 10 dollar an hour pay cut to CAW workers?

There is no reason to believe the money will be spent to secure or provide more jobs. There's nothing to say the money wouldn't be pocketed as bonuses for executives, or misspent in bad capital projects, because we don't have the brain power in management or engineering to accomplish those things effectively.

Think about it. In Japan and Korea, they have to import all their fuel and their materials. Within a days drive in Ontario, we have the materials in the ground, we have the smelters, we have the factories. We have an abundance of hydro electric power-- as "free" a power as it gets-- just across the provincial border, and we are more than self sufficient in fossil fuels for electric generation in this country.

With all these inherent advantages, we are getting spanked by resource poor countries.

And it ain't because workers are too expensive, or because workers aren't good enough.

As I said before, we are being out thunk, out managed.

[ 02 December 2007: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 December 2007 04:17 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
Up in the middle of the night with indigestion (ate rich and spicy indian much too late), I came across an interesting program on the BBC:The Happiness Formula £50,000 = $100,000

So it seems our friend jester might be happy this year after all.


Actually,I hear the "I'm too busy living my life with friends and family to bother working much" story quite a few times. Usually when the speaker comes over to borrow something or get me to do things for free for them because I'm "rich" and can afford it.

I too am very concerned with living a balanced life. When my children were young, I stayed home for a couple of years with them and my wife and now, I never work more than six months per year.

The difference between my sort of work and CAW jobs is that I have absolutely no job security - I work as an oilfield contractor,mostly pipeline and facilities.I work on a project specific contract. When the project is done,so am I. Sometimes its busy, sometimes not, therefore my renumeration has to last until the next project. I've spent as much as 2 years without work so I invest wisely. I don't have a pension plan or health and welfare benefits into retirement like the CAW so I need to look after that myself also.

So,to me,if your lifestyle is more important than your family's security, thats fine but don't complain when you lose your job and have no savings to depend on.

I truly hope your research into happiness will bear reward for you personally, Mr. Jeezus, because you appear a very bitter person. Perhaps contributions on the subject at hand will inspire a more positive attitude on your part.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 December 2007 04:19 AM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
And what if we combined a 400 million dollar taxpayer cash infusion into the auto parts sector in Ontario, with a 10 dollar an hour pay cut to CAW workers?

There is no reason to believe the money will be spent to secure or provide more jobs. There's nothing to say the money wouldn't be pocketed as bonuses for executives, or misspent in bad capital projects, because we don't have the brain power in management or engineering to accomplish those things effectively.


That's sort of why I'd much rather see that money given directly to the autoworkers themselves. Perhaps a fund administered either by or with the CAW, targeted to laid-off workers who need it most.


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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Babbler # 214

posted 02 December 2007 06:02 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We already have a fund, it's called E.I. Although, it's not what it used to be, thanks to Buz' buddy Paul Martin who established the practice of stealing from these deferred wages.

I'm not against cash infusion from the taxpayer for this or other industries. But it has to come with strings attached-- like top salaries being reasonable, and solid accounting on what capital was purchased with the money-- so that said capital can be returned to the taxpayer in the event of plant closure or bankruptcy.

Similarly, if workers take wage and or benefit cuts, the capital it purchases or preserves then belongs to the workers.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 December 2007 06:51 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
When my children were young, I stayed home for a couple of years with them and my wife and now, I never work more than six months per year.

So you work twelve hour days six months a year, and figure you're working harder than people who work eight hour days all year round?

quote:
When we asked people to choose the two most important sources of happiness in their lives, out of 1001 people only 77 people said work fulfilment.

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 December 2007 07:04 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Similarly, if workers take wage and or benefit cuts, the capital it purchases or preserves then belongs to the workers.

Good principle Tommy.

But most cases I know of, the capital ends up not being worth anything. And doesn't take long doing it. For reasons not hard to figure out.

Maybe it's still better than nothing, and there may be new twists on this- something more like leverage and less like capital [not just pathetic 'seats on the board' or 'at the table'].

There is a flip side problem too- when it comes to companies like GM, taking stock for wage cuts is almost as undesirable to the companies as just giving the money. [Stock dilution.]

Well, maybe not in the case of GM, since the stock can't be worth much anyway. But if that's the case- the tradeoff for concessions is pretty dubious.

BRAIN WAVE: based on that past history of concessions for a share of capital- if one sees a company do that and the stock price is comparatively healthy, sell it short. [IE, you put money on it going down.]

[ 02 December 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 02 December 2007 07:53 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ken, it sounds as though you're saying that workers and their unions have nothing to contribute to the improvement of the N. American auto industry (and indeed, could be expected to speed its deterioration).

I hope I've misread your last post.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 December 2007 09:42 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Definitely.

Tommy suggested that if workers are going to make monetary concessions, they should get an appropriate piece of the company in return. The capital.

I was pointing out that the monetary value of that seems to usually, or nearly always be, from trivial to zero. [Because these companies on their way down don't come back.]

An idea that has occurred to me- just an idea. I don't watch this stuff anymore so this may be known to be impractical, or it may be out there.

That in return for moneatary value concessions workers get what amounts to a secured loan [held collectively]. No principal is repaid until and if there are profits above a minimum level. But interest accrues.

The advantage being that if the company declares bankruptcy the workers are in line with the banks who are in the ballpark of being paid 30-80 cents on a dollar owed, as opposed to being shareholders that are going to get pennies on the dollar.

Companies wouldn't want to do this for good reason: it would doom them to a long period of low profits even as[if] they recover. Management always pays a price for doing that. But if they really need the concessions... tough. What's their alternative?


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 December 2007 10:58 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here’s something meaty to throw into the discussion. And it’s closely related to the ongoing CAW – Magna deal discussion a number of us have been part of.

It’s something I’ve been half expecting to come up in that thread. I would not have been the one to introduce it for fear it would derail from the focus on folks figuring out what is going on, and then groping towards what to do about it.

In that thread I made the argument that it isn’t so much the no strikes provision that is crucial for Magna. By itself, they could have got that easy. It is the no strikes provision, combined with the other elements of the agreements, making sure that the power balance in the agreement stays in Magna’s favour well beyond the formal 6 year term of the no strikes provision.

Associated, but not really part of the power balance thing of keeping the CAW hobbled- is that Magna will get to keep the biggest advantage all non-union employers have. In fact, many employers are ready to quickly concede equal to union wages and benefits to keep this advantage.

Which is the power to have no union interference in the managing of production.

We emphasise that the union’s ability to limit that power is a rightful means to ensure justice, dignity and a share of control over the environment workers spend so much of their lives in.

But what about the elephant in the room: the monetary cost of that? No, it isn’t a zero sum pie. And a lot of the reason that more union/worker power does easily cost more is because of weaknesses in management: they don’t or won’t figure out how to be efficient without being arbitrary dictators.

Historicaly, management insists on total and arbitrary power until concessions are beat out of them. Then they grudgingly adjust to the new reality without ever thinking how to truly integrate notions of shared responsibility into efficient management of production.

So we are where we are now.

But that all still avoids the union’s elephant in the room: Work rules.

Touchy stuff there.

There are all sorts of apocryphal exaggerations out there of work rules that make no sense and impose huge costs. But cut away the distortions and we all know that there is more truth than a grain of salt to that.

Get more forthright about that elephant and you admit that the benefits of those work rules are far from evenly distributed in the plant.

Those work rules are a sacred cow in any union. No one wants to face the internal battles that go with honest discussion of them.

But maybe they need to be opened up for discussion- anything goes even- start from scratch, everything on the table…. Wouldn’t that be better than the wholesale surrender that the Magna deal is?

As Buzz says- the Magna workers aren’t giving up what they don’t have [except the ones that already have CAW contracts]. But that’s a dodge, because what is enshrined in the Framework for Fairness as things Magna workers will never have to give up will eventually come knocking on the door for workers in CAW plants across the industry. When the Magna Framework look-alikes come battering at the door of already organized plants, they will most definitely mean losing something big time for organized autowrkers.

So rather than waiting for the wholesale surrender, wouldn’t it be better to put everything on the table? ...but where the union still has negotiating power- as was and is the case at CAMI: no traditional work rules, but with work rules that are continuously negotiated with an independent union, and that buttress in plant union institutions that maintain bargaining power for the long term.

[ 02 December 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 December 2007 03:09 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I rewrote the post above, and apologies to anyone who already tried to read it.

Rushed.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
windsorworker
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posted 02 December 2007 06:14 PM      Profile for windsorworker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
China, Japan, India, Brazil, etc. don't buy Canadian goods? Get real.
Takeing out natural resources We have trade deficts with everyone of those countries.

From: windsor | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 02 December 2007 06:49 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
GUELPH, ONT. — — — Every two hours, a yellow puck appears amid the flow of parts along the assembly line at Denso Manufacturing Canada Inc. That means it's time for employees to stretch.

Outside the walls of its 10-year-old plant, Denso is stretching itself even more with a $73-million expansion that is tripling the size of the Guelph, Ont., facility and doubling the number of employees. Production of some components will be transferred here from Battle Creek, Mich.


quote:
Denso is not alone. Other Japan-based suppliers are adding jobs or opening their first plants in this country to sell to Toyota Motor Corp. [TM-N] as the Japan-based juggernaut constructs a new assembly plant along the main artery of the auto industry in Canada, smack dab on Highway 401 in Woodstock, Ont.

Lurking beneath the surface of the carnage in auto parts specifically and manufacturing in general are these nuggets of growth, which show that it may be possible not only to survive as an automotive supplier, but also prosper.


Japan to the rescue - they don't need handouts


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 December 2007 08:40 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And what is your point that flows from the article on Japan based firms that are expanding production here?

Overall North American auto and parts manufacturing is shrinking steadily. Within the context of that it still makes sense for global Asian based firms to base some of their production here.

So they do. The article is about particular firms that are expanding. But the volume of production and investment done here by Asian firms is not increasing overall.

Japanese firms are not rescuing anybody. Nor does it mean anything that they don't need handouts to make investments in North America.

It's just part of the business plan that they need to have some part of their production here. In fact, overall they are somewhat less into investing in production here than earlier. But they still spread their options. In doing so, even if they are just standing still in the level of production investments, or even shrinking some, there are still going to be local expansions as are discussed in the artticle.

Again, your point is what?


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 December 2007 09:31 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The whole work rules in unionized plants thing frequently comes up when [non-union] Japanese owned firms are discussed.

The importance of work rules is often overblown. It is only one of the things that effects competitiveness.

Historically overblown or not, anything that effects auto industry competitiveness is amplified these days. In the especially brutal parts industry, the no union / no work rules formula is part of the success of Magna and others.

The UAW and CAW have always pursued multi tracked strategies to level the playing field and eliminate or mitigate the disadvantages of unionized employers.

The CAW deal with Magna fits within that- though even its supporters would agree it’s a fundamentally different way of going about it. Critics say that it just brings the union to a no [independent] union / no work rules formula.

This strikes a lot of us as unnecessarily desperate. And dangerous to say the least: because if allowed to gain a foothold, the arrangement will spread rapidly through the industry on the galloping horse of employer demands in collective bargaining. “Give us something like Magna has, or else.”

My earlier post raises the question of an alternative to this wholesale surrender. Start by admitting that work rules are a competitive issue. In fact, its done constantly on ad hoc local basis [“change these rules or we don’t make this new investment”]. But address it systematically- with the same scope as the Magna deal.

Be proactive.

The precedent is there. The CAMI plant does not have the kind of work rules typical of union assembly plants because Suzuki would not accept that. But the CAMI plant has union stewards, union grievance and other committees, and the work rules are negotiated with the union.

[This existence of the traditional in-plant union institutions is also essential to the long term maintenace of the unions overall bargaining power. I elaborated this in the Magna deal thread.]

My point about the elephant in the room is that addressing this in existing organized plants is difficult because the benefits of traditional work rules are not evenly distributed among autoworkers. So putting these work rules on the table is going to make losers out of particular groups, and ones who tend to have influence in the union structure.

This would create big time tensions within any institution- it’s by no means unique to unions or are they any more guilty of turning a blind eye to that. [Much more of that in management layers- which thrive on that differentiation, with the convenient mythology that it is merit based differentiation of privilege.]

But for the union in a company, and on a plant by plant basis, re-drawing work rules is not going to cost the jobs of those workers with the unequal benefits from work rules. And not dealing with it is another factor in everyones’ jobs being at risk.

It’s understandable that some autoworkers would see going down that road as an inherent sellout. But leave the status quo and you get desperate measures like the Magna deal… soon enough to come to your door too.

Would you rather have the Magna deal as a pattern, or the CAMI situation?

[ 02 December 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 03 December 2007 06:38 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
editing out post put into wrong thread

[ 03 December 2007: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
co-worker
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posted 04 December 2007 10:36 AM      Profile for co-worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Quote

Denso is not alone. Other Japan-based suppliers are adding jobs or opening their first plants in this country to sell to Toyota Motor Corp. [TM-N] as the Japan-based juggernaut constructs a new assembly plant along the main artery of the auto industry in Canada, smack dab on Highway 401 in Woodstock, Ont.
Lurking beneath the surface of the carnage in auto parts specifically and manufacturing in general are these nuggets of growth, which show that it may be possible not only to survive as an automotive supplier, but also prosper


Do you seriously believe the Japanese auto-makers will pay, benefit, and pension Ontario employees once they (the Toyota and Honda purchasers) have desolved the big three?
Will they ever employ the 175 000 jobs already lost?


From: london | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 04 December 2007 11:35 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Yeah, I saw a GM van yesterday with a bumper sticker that read "Still have a job? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN" pulling into a Wal-Mart where 70% of what is sold is ... foreign.

I wonder how that escaped my van driver?


Don't be too hard on them-- they might have been going to work.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 04 December 2007 11:56 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
Hmmm....

I could see why it would increase after the late 1980s but why did it go up so drastically from 1980 until then ?


In 1980 the Canadian dollar had a significant meltdown.

There has been no change in "dependence on the US". All you are seeing is a combination of: 1) the US buying less due to a recent slowdown 2) the effect of transfers of Canadian jobs to the US and other places. With a higher dollar they just buy from elsewhere, don't buy at all or fire the Canadian workers and set up a new plant in the US or Mexico. Our overall stats on dollar value traded does not go down by much because the oil and gas component is going up. There is no good news here.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 04 December 2007 12:00 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jabberwock:
I might be wrong, but is it not the case that Toyoto is the only Auto Company in ON that is not laying off workers?

And if they are paying union-equivelant wages, I will be happy to continue buying Toyota. My current Toyota is a 97 and nothing has gone wrong with it other than one rear seatbelt getting permanently stuck.

I don't think I would get that kind of quality with Ford.


Actually I am driving a Ford Escort 1998 with similar success. It now has 230,000 km on it....
It is very good on gas, parts are cheap and it is quite reliable. It is made in Michigan or Mexico.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
huberman
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posted 05 December 2007 10:12 AM      Profile for huberman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Toyota may not be laying off workers in ON, but here is something on how they treat workers:

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN3030114720071130

Court rules employee worked to death
Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:18pm EST
A Toyota Motor Corp employee died of overwork after ...


From: NAFTA | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged

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