Some years ago here in the U.S. schools started outlawing forms of dress that signified gang affiliations: certain types of bagging pants, hats worn in a certain way, bandanas… The reason was these gangs tended not to fight on principle of gang warfare if they could not readily identify “enemy” gang members. Also, not every student was aware of the significance of certain types of dress and would tend to get beat up just by virtue of unwittingly dressing like a gang member. The baggy pants thing eventually fell from significance, but the hats and the bandanas never did so, nowadays, only hats, bandanas, and, by extension, head scarves are forbidden in public schools. If you happen to belong to a religion that requires some kind of head covering and cannot bend to assimilate with mainstream society, you simply go to one of the many private schools that endorse that particular religion.

But the Islamic hijab presents special problems.

Muslim women and girls will say they have a religious obligation to wear the hijab. This is based on the following scriptures:

Koran 24:30-31: “Say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands...”
Both of which are simple requirements for general modesty, not necessarily head-coverings. Demeanor, lack of jewelry or makeup, pinned up hair, and very plain, shapeless but tidy, clothes can accomplish can easily accomplish this sort of modesty in non-Muslim countries without the student even standing out for it.
Another scripture frequently brought in defense of hijab is:

Koran 33:59: O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed...”

This last one was addressed specifically to the Prophets wives lest they be mistaken for slave women who were available to all. The veil in those time beings the symbol of a free and high born woman as opposed to the uncovered peasant or slave who was to be accorded no respect whatsoever by the rabble. All of which means absolutely nothing in western culture.

Muslim women and girls will further defend the need to wear hijab as something that will keep them from being viewed as sex objects, something that will force men or boys to view them as equals, seeing them only for their personalities and minds. They feel that it prevents sexual harassment, even rape.

It’s a nice theory if only the evidence would kindly support it, but that’s not what always tends to happen nor, even when it does, not all that happens.

Like the gangs mentioned above, Muslim women wearing the hijab is too often a show of militant Islamism, less on the part of the women and girls wearing it, than on the part of male family members and associates that have either persuaded or forced it on them.

Muslim males react to having their females wear hijab as empowering to themselves and a token step backward in time toward pure Islam and Sharia law. If that doesn’t worry you, then I must assume you are completely unfamiliar with the harshness of intolerance of basis everyday Sharia law, particularly for women. As an ex-Muslim I am all too familiar with it but this is an incidental side topic.

Another issue of this Muslim male “empowerment” by the hijab of Muslim women is that these males feel protected from the female allure through it. Some have told me in all earnestness that the hijab suppresses the wearer's gaseous female pheromones from unduly arousing all men in her vicinity. After having myself a good laugh at this, I dutifully search for any evidence of this that might be available. Firstly, I discovered that gaseous male pheromones are much stronger than those of females are and, secondly, that they are too small a molecule to be even minutely suppressed by a mere piece of cloth. Some have Muslim males have told me that the hijab is simply a visual suppressant of male desire as well as being the sign of an obedient and chaste female which is something a hard-line religious Muslim male will look for when deciding whom to marry. They will also expect hijobbed women and girls to be chaperoned in public at all times. This last is a mostly unspoken rule that just goes with the territory, though is familiar only to born and raised Muslims and completely unexpected by western converts to Islam whose family members are non-Muslims and who is used to absolute freedom of movement.

All of which can have unfortunate side effects.

Once a Muslim girl or woman starts to wear the hijab, the whole Muslim community and her own Muslim family members will apply pressure to her on the issue if she should later decide not to wear it any longer. It is no longer her choice to wear or not wear for whatever reason not even when she reaches adulthood.

Another side affect is directly proportional to the number of hijobbed Muslim females that a Muslim male sees on a daily basis, in school for instance. He will start seeing hijobbed and chaperoned females as being worthy of his respect and all others as being unworthy and his respect, cheap, and open to his advances even when he is constantly rebuffed. This is because he has begun to think that hijab and a chaperone is all that keeps his lusts in check, he convinces himself that he cannot control himself at all when both are not present. The result is that Muslim females in these areas loose their freedom of choice in the matter of hijab and all females loose their freedom of unrestricted movement and common respect. Evidence of this is the sudden rise in sexual harassment and rape of non-Muslim and unchaperoned hijobbed females alike in areas where hijobs have become a common public sight – especially in the public school systems. Areas of France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, England and even the U.S. have become examples of this. Looks to me that Canada will soon be next.

[ 16 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 16 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

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There is some talk these days of allowing Muslim girls to wear hijab in the public schools of non-Muslim countries

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"talk of allowing" doesn't make sense here... In Canada Muslim girls and women are free to wear the hijab wherever they want, including public schools. I think it should stay that way.
(The comparison to gang clothing is absurd, freedom of regligion is a basic right, being a gang member is not.)

I hear your argument about the many cases where girls are forced to wear the hijab and that they would be freer in school if it was banned. But parents who absolutely want their child to wear the hijab will just put their kids in private religious schools if the public schools won't let them. It is much better for these girls who are controlled by their parents to be exposed to the wide diversity of views and customs in public schools, which will make them into more confident teenagers and adults who will be able to able to make their own decisions about what to wear. If the girls are sequestered in religous private schools, they are probably more likely to believe that the only way to be a good muslim is to wear the hijab and not have the courage to stand up their parents as they grow up to make their own decisions.

[ 16 March 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]

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Sara, in many provinces the state school system is not truly secular - as there are Catholic public schools for example.

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Yes lagatta, I'm not a newbie to the various Canadian school systems.

But the removal of crosses from formerly catholic shools in Quebec (which are now linguistic-based) is completely different. That is a case of the government/school indicating its religious preference. The government should not give more prominence to one religion or another, but it should allow people to practice any religion they want, even on public proprety, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others.

I realise that Ontario Catholic schools obivously display their religious preference, but I'm not going to defend the Ontario school system as it is set up know, as I have major problems with it.

[ 16 March 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]

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Originally posted by Mandos:
See, this appears to be a well-reasoned argument against the hijab that a Muslim can reasonably argue to other Muslims, as opposed to the rantings of certain others who come on this site.

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Sara I apologise if my comment sounded as if I thought you weren't familiar with the school systems at least in Quebec and Ontario, you obviously are from many posts you have made. I'm extremely tired from working on the computer about 15 hours a day - guess I should refrain from posting. I couldn't stay away from the thread about Alternatives being accused of anti-semitism as it affects me deeply. Happened to see this - indeed the initial post was very interesting. Also very, very similar to the argumentation against the hijab for school pupils on the part of young women of Muslim origins in France.

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"talk of allowing" doesn't make sense here... In Canada Muslim girls and women are free to wear the hijab wherever they want, including public schools. I think it should stay that way.

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Sorry. I'm American and it has been discussed here but is not yet legal. About Canada, I'd heard that it was talked about but didn't realize it had been made legal. My children have never been allowed to wear hats or scarves to school, not even when they went, temporarily, to a private Christian school. (We're not Christian, but that school was smaller and had higher standards than the public schools so we tried it for awhile. The side-line of religious indoctination was a bit too much for the kids to take though, so I later removed them). The reason for the ban on hats and scarves, as I mentioned was based directly on the experience school districts have had with gang related violence. Islamist specific dress is now being regarded with the same suspicion because of what we're hearing about Europe's recent problems with that... as well as some of own in certain areas. And it's not just the harrasment of non-Muslim girls that is occuring but also, incidently, of Jewish students.

Where's the relationship you might ask? It's that "empowerment" issue again. Fundamental Islam is very anti-Semetic because the Koran frequently refers to Jews as a misguided people of the book and dispicable. Hence, Muslim males who feel Islamically empowered by the traditionalism of their females wearing hijab also get back to the basics of harrassing Jews.

I can see where a Muslim girl forced to attend private school would miss something important in not getting to interact with the rest of the world so she can make her own decisions from an experienced point of view. Nor would I wish for you as a Muslim girl/woman to be deprived of wearing hijab if you really feel obligated or particularly safe or confident in doing so, or for any reason, but the problems that can arise from it will still need to be addressed. We don't want the same problems that Europe is having with it! I mean, YIKES! and I don't really understand why it has gotten so bad there.

It seems to me that a simpler solution would be to punish the malcreants outright rather than restrict the innocents. It is generally not the Muslim girls themselves that are causing the problem but rather what their hijob is communicating to the Muslim boys who suddenly feel sexually "out of control" or disrespectful in the absence of either hijab or chaperone, not to mention the strength of their sudden burst of disruptive negativity toward Jewish students.

A possible approach to the problem the boys are causing (any of them really, not just the Muslim boys), is to start each school semester with a sort of human relations class: good touch, bad touch, what is incorrect to say to someone, and the warning that sexual and any other sort of harrassment of groups or inviduals will not be tolerated. Maybe a three strikes you're out deal? Out of the public school system entirely if there are three verifiable accusations against the student. For rape,arson,and other sorts of more eextreme violence, of course, there is always juevenile detention until adulthood.

What do you think? Would there be any serious objection to that kind of solution in leiu of banning hijab? I wonder, in fact, what Europeans are actually doing to solve the problems. I've only heard them complain about the problems, but oddly haven't heard a thing about what they're doing to take care of them. Does anyone here know?

By the way, with hijab in public schools legal in Canada, is Canada experiencing any of the problems related to it that Europe is? If so, how is it being dealt with?

[ 16 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]any

[ 16 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 16 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

I had theorised in my own mind that this situation could arise, the effect on boys, the treatment of non-hejabed girls, etc, and it plays a part in my dislike for overt religious expression, but, since I didn't go to school with strict Muslims, I hadn't had any personal experience with it and I haven't read enough about the situation France, I didn't really get into that with my posts.

Your experience is very interesting.

As far as these problems happening in Canada, I've never come across any studies. I imagine that we will have to wait and see. I don't think there were enough hejabed girls in schools ten years ago to tally up enough numbers for there to be a serious study. At one elementary school in Ottawa I would say 75% of the girls are wearing hejabs. It will be interesting to see what effect that has once they all reach highschool and puberty.

[ 16 March 2004: Message edited by: Trinitty ]

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By the way, with hijab in public schools legal in Canada, is Canada experiencing any of the problems related to it that Europe is? If so, how is it being dealt with?

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Maybe I'm out of the loop, but I'm not even aware of the hijab being an issue in Canadian public schools.

The only issue around religious dress that I'm aware of was some years ago with Sikhs wearing a kirpan (ceremonial dagger) in the schools.

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Maybe I'm out of the loop, but I'm not even aware of the hijab being an issue in Canadian public schools.

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I don't think you're out of the loop. That's my experience as well.

The U.S. has had similar problems. Only in the Army have the American-born Muslims presented any problem at all, but certain immigrant groups, the ones that have never integrated with our society, present BIG problems. The Bangladeshi immigrant Muslim groups have created such big problems for their new American communities that one community after another has made the unprecedented demand that they be deported as a whole group. I'm not kidding. The only thing that has prevented this from happening is Amnesty International keeping the pressure on us, saying that it would be inhumane to send them back to Bangladesh where both the economy and the human rights situation is a complete fiasco.

So how to assimulate these people so that they don't feel the need to go to identity extremes that other people can't live with? Draconian measures shouldn't be neccessary for this sort of thing. Right?

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...not the French, who can be a bit uppity about foriegners at the best of times.

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So how to assimulate these people so that they don't feel the need to go to identity extremes that other people can't live with? Draconian measures shouldn't be neccessary for this sort of thing. Right?

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I should mention that we already have social programs to help immigrants with all of these but the Bangladeshi have refused to cooperate or participate on all fronts, preffering to live on the dole, to show open hostility to all non-Muslims and non-Bangladeshis around them, and won't even learn English. What can we do with them?

What were you suggesting by the way? Obviously I misunderstood.

About the Parisian being uppity, I've been there a few times for month-long stays and so have some of my friends. None of us could speak any better than highschool French, which should have been enough to get around with, but unless we were flashing money, the Parisians we met wouldn't even give us the time of day save to occassionally curse us for our poor pronounciation. I can well imagine they extend this treatment to other foriegners as well. Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's been my only experience with them.

[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

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Why wouldn't we?

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Tonight I met this young women from Somalia. She worked at restaurant. She was relating to me how she threw this woman out of her bar. I said: that was "really unchristian of you," In a lightherted way. She said she was Muslim. I said: "so Where is your Hejab." She said, "like, whatever!"

We talked about that for a while.

It just seems to me that for all the talk of various forms of clothing that are indigenous (?) to western culture, that some people criticize (for the sake of comaprison) as being opressive (sic) that we spend an inordinate amount of time discussing what is oppressive in a culture that is not our own.

Some people who post here are Muslim, so it is interesting, but for some reason the consitent focus on a piece of ceremonial cloth that some people interpret as being oppressive to women in Muslim culture seems somewhat slanted.

I am reminded of Said's work on orientalism.

Speaking of which:

Uppity Persians?! Is someone posting from the 19th century?

[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
It just seems to me that for all the talk of various forms of clothing that are indigenous (?) to western culture, that some people criticize (for the sake of comaprison) as being opressive (sic) that we spend an inordinate amount of time discussing what is oppressive in a culture that is not our own.

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Baloney. There have been lots of other threads talking about what is oppressive in our own culture. Assuming that you mean "WASP" is "our own culture" here (which is problematic to begin with), there are all sorts of discussions in the feminism forum and others about all sorts of oppressive things about our society. And there have been all sorts of criticisms of Christian movements, not the least of which have been made by me - and that's my "culture".

We are interested in all forms of oppression from all cultures. All of which, by the way, are facets of CANADIAN culture.

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Uppity Persians?! Is someone posting from the 19th century?

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Uppity Parisians. Not that that's much better, as it's a generalization.

[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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I don't believe for a minute you've had month-long stays in Paris. You sound like you've never stepped one foot out of Iowa.

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Goodness you're a bit grounchy Hinterland. Have some more coffee with some nice Irish cream and enjoy a happy St. Paddy's Day!

Actually, I've had two approximately 1 month stays in Paris. The first time was in 1982 when I had a stopover there on my way back from Iran and started hemorraghing. For that I was hospitalized for a couple of weeks. The people in the hospital, unlike those on the street, were super nice. Afterwards, I had to recupperate for a month, staying with some Iranian relatives there before they'd let me back on the plane. That was fine, I got to explore all over Paris. It's a beautiful city. It's just that the people on the streets were unfriendly. Don't know if it was because I was foriegn, because I was Muslim (at that time), or because I was American. But they were COLD! The artists in the square were friendlier, though, maybe because we had a common love of art.

Meanwhile, having travelled to Iran on my husband's passport (not knowing that was a problem), I came up to a brick wall, finding out that, though Iranian while in Iran, I was an American when travelling back to Iran so had to get an American passport. They were so upset with me at the embassy that I'd travelled to Iran on an Iranian passort that they were going to deny me re-entrance in the U.S. When I sighed heavily and said that I'd have to go back to Iran where the Engalob Ministry had offered be a job, they had a hurried conference in the back room before abruptly handing me my passport. The Engalob Ministry had in fact offered me a job that I'd turned down never knowing that "Engalob" meant "revolution" in Persian.

My second month long stay in Paris was during my military tour stationed in Germany when I got to go there on a special R&R tour in 1986. Didn't have to go in uniform either. I was no longer a Muslim then, but the Parisians were still unfriendly. I had fun anyway. Luckily, I was travelling with a large group of friends.

Back to the subject though, I never felt that the full nun-like hijab was strictly neccessay when a simple modest demeanor would have sufficed. I wore it first to please my Iranian husband - though not exactly with a willing spirit - and then he wouldn't let me take it off.

In Iran, there were squads of crow-like women in black chadurs and marnets who were driven in little Peykahn trucks. Whenever they saw a woman's hijab slipping, they would jump off scolding and hitting the woman with their batons. I was soon terrified to take off the hijab or ever have it anything less than perfect. Even so, everywhere I went in Iran, with or without an escort, the men would constantly be making grabs at me. My husband had to stop me short of breaking one's nose once (I was a karate student back in the States), but then did nothing about it himself, the LOOSER. It was a sure evidence to me that men there didn't respect women in general with or without hijab or escort.

Just this morning on the news, I saw again, with appreciation, that it's different here in the States even without the hijab. A man's face was plastered on the "Wanted" screen for making grabs at women's bottoms all over town just as I used to see the men in Tehran doing all the time with not the least reprimand.

By the way, I have never been to Iowa. I hear it's flat and they grow corn there. It's never awakened much interest in me as a place to travel.

[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

Also, who is we? I am not targeting this site in particular but critiquing overemphasis on one culture (Islam) in general.

For that matter where is the discussion of opressive traditions in Judaic culture?

I see there is a new thread on Islam in the Youth Issues section.

Edited to add: I see that Lagatta has started a thread on the topic of western cloths. Good for her.

[ 18 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Another scripture frequently brought in defense of hijab is:

Koran 33:59: O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed...”

This last one was addressed specifically to the Prophets wives lest they be mistaken for slave women who were available to all. The veil in those time beings the symbol of a free and high born woman as opposed to the uncovered peasant or slave who was to be accorded no respect whatsoever by the rabble. All of which means absolutely nothing in western culture.

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I'm not sure what you mean. The other day, a friend of mine who works at a bar (a waitress)was accosted by a group who described themselves as "proffessionals," (read elite). They grabbed her breast and otherwise verbally mistreated her.

"Schoolgirl look" makes students a target

And they thought Barbie's proportions were bad... (thread digresses onto high heels)

The sexualization of young girls through revealing clothing

Fat is a capitalist issue (about how our society encourages and yet vilifies fatness)

Female body image

Women and religious institutions - mostly about how women are treated by Christian religions, although there was a digression onto Orthodox Jewish culture too.

I'm changing my name to "Harry" - about women who feel pressured to shave their legs even though they don't want to

International WoMEN's Day? - not only is this thread about oppression of North American women - but about the experience of a women who felt oppressed by North American men on the left.

Sexist Media

The horror that is the women's magazine industry

R.I.P. Mode - about the cancellation of a fashion magazine aimed at large women, which included criticism of the fashion industry, and even of Mode itself as an agent of that industry.

Also, because the hijab has been in the news lately with the news out of France.

[ 18 March 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Also, because the hijab has been in the news lately with the news out of France

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Yes, that is part of what is bothering me. Why is the Hejab news?

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I didn't know that the hijab was already legal in the Cadandian public school system and had been for a while, but I had heard that Canada was seriously considering installing Sharia family law in Canada and was a bit worried about it. I'm an American, but I love Canada and have a lot of trouble even considering it a separate country. I sort of feel that what happens to Canada will somehow happen to the U.S. and that we should share one another's concerns. I'm afraid that what has happened in Indonesia, parts of the Philapines, and what is beginning in Europe, will happen to Canada. Hijab is too-often a beacon for militant Islamism even when that's the furtherest thing from the wearer's mind.

As I explained before, hijab wearers should be allowed to wear it without harrassment, but non-hijab wearers should have the same consideration. What is happening in Europe, particularly France, is that Muslim women/girls start wearing hijab and Muslim men/boys start looking at non-hijab wearers with dangerous disdain leading to a sudden surge in the harrassment and rape of women/girls in those areas.

In France, too many women who seriously hate the hijab are ending up wearing it just so they can walk again in safety on streets where they used to walk in safety when there were few if any hijab wearers. Are you following what I'm saying? It's the same sort of thing that happens to women when a red-light district opens in their neighborhood.

These weak-willed men who feel that women wearing hijab and having escorts is all that keeps them from losing control of themselves is ALL that is creating the problem. Not just non-Muslim girls in general, but Jewish students too are getting regularly attacked as the fundamentalist fervor - unwittingly, perhaps, symbolized by the hijabs - grows. French people are feeling compelled to move their children out of schools that have a preponderance of hijab-wearers because of how dangerously violent those places have become.

Out of desperation, because these men refused to control themselves, France posed a law that would make hijab illegal in school since Muslim teenage boys are the ones who cause the most trouble when hijab is present. If the parents of those boys had only taught them how to control themselves, to be lawful French citizens, and to treat all people equally, the problem would never have arisen in the first place. Usually, violent gang members get their start in a violent amoral home front where there is a lot of intolerance present. Is that what happened with these boys? or is it something else?

That said, the fundamentalists (yes, the ones that take Koran and haddith literally, but with many interpretations), reacted badly. They sent a threatening letter to the government, basically saying that it had better kowtow to them or else. Here is an excerpt from a CNN report, March 17, 2004 http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/17/france.threats/index.html:

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The letter, from a previously unknown group calling itself the "Servants of Allah the Mighty and the Wise," said it planned to take action after Muslim girls were banned from wearing headscarves in schools.

The bill was passed last month by the National Assembly.

"You have let loose on yourself a river of hate and ignorance, not only toward Muslims but toward Islam itself," the letter, addressed to Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said.

"We will plunge France into terror and remorse, and we will make blood run to your borders."

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These are the reasons for hijab being in the news so much lately.

[ 18 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 18 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 18 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

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I didn't know that the hijab was already legal in the Cadandian public school system and had been for a while, but I had heard that Canada was seriously considering installing Sharia family law in Canada and was a bit worried about it. I'm an American, but I love Canada and have a lot of trouble even considering it a separate country. I sort of feel that what happens to Canada will somehow happen to the U.S. and that we should share one another's concerns.

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[rant]Just so you know, those kinds of statements can be really annoying to progressive Canadians. It sounds eerily like Paul Cellucci the US ambassador to Canada who is pressuring the Canadian government not to soften our marijuana laws. Or like Us politicians who blame Canada for the debate in the US over same-sex marriage. We are a sovereign country and we can change the laws anyway we like, regardless of how it makes Americans feel. [/rant]

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Originally posted by Ampbreia:

I'm an American, but I love Canada and have a lot of trouble even considering it a separate country.

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Really. Well then, you don't "love" Canada. You just feel possessive. I got news: We're a separate country. Get used to it.
(Takes deep breath, deletes remainder of rude rant he was going to post)

You know, this is the kind of comment that really brings out the worst in Canadians. If you want to talk to us, maybe you'd better think carefully about the reputation of Americans for thinking their own solutions are always the right ones and that they have the right--even the duty--to explain to everyone why things should be done the American way. Then think about the fact that one defining feature of Canadian identity involves resisting Americanization, surviving the fact of the world's biggest culture exporter sitting next door.

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It never occurred to me that anyone in their right mind could take that as some kind of insult. Sorry. I'll remember to walk on eggshells around you next time.

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Originally posted by Ampbreia:
No Sara Mayo, I meant it in a purely neighborly way. It never occurred to me that anyone in their right mind could take that as some kind of insult. Sorry. I'll remember to walk on eggshells around you next time.

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Good lord. I can see it not occurring to you, but it seems as if you still don't understand. Do you ever put yourself in the other person's position? Look, if country x isn't a separate country from the US, that doesn't mean much for the US; just another bit to be digested. But for country x, it means they've been taken over, assimilated, made over into the US's image, their nationality has been annihilated, their patriotism has been crushed. You Americans are nationalist and hyperpatriotic as hell--there's no way you would take kindly to such implications if it was turned around. Why are you acting like for anyone *else* it's a ridiculously touchy notion? Is it just that you have trouble taking seriously the thought that anyone else might have a national identity of their own?

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I'm an American, but I love Canada and have a lot of trouble even considering it a separate country.

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It's your country, do with it as you like, but keep it on your side of the border.

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I think this is the problem. What makes you think we have not kept it on our side of the border? Is our ambassador to the US lobbying US politicans to improve your dreadful healthcare system? Are your newspapers filled with Canadian Press wire stories? Is your TV filled with 90% Canadian shows?

By the way, even though I feel very strongly against your statements, I think you are probably a very nice person, as are most Americans I know, and I enjoy this debate with you. I just hope you can see things from our point of view.

[ 18 March 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]

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What is happening in Europe, particularly France, is that Muslim women/girls start wearing hijab and Muslim men/boys start looking at non-hijab wearers with dangerous disdain leading to a sudden surge in the harrassment and rape of women/girls in those areas.

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Are you trying to pose, seriously, that the Hejab causes rape? Not like the woman in the miniskirt who gets blamed for her own rape because of the cloths she wears, but it is now the woman who wears the Hejab who causes the rape of the woman in the miniskirt?

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Is our ambassador to the US lobbying US politicans to improve your dreadful healthcare system?

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Not that I know of, but we could certainly stand to follow Canada's example in this regard.

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Are your newspapers filled with Canadian Press wire stories? Is your TV filled with 90% Canadian shows?

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Actually, we get a lot of Canadian news sources and television shows here, though I don't know the percentages.

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Are you trying to pose, seriously, that the Hejab causes rape? Not like the woman in the miniskirt who gets blamed for her own rape because of the cloths she wears, but it is now the woman who wears the Hejab who causes the rape of the woman in the miniskirt?

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Yes actually. Check the European statistics on this.

It's the same thing as having a red-light district in the area. Men in those vicinities start thinking of women ONLY as sex objects and worthy of scorn and disrespect. Then they start harrassing ALL women and stop thinking of them as human beings with human feelings. Rape goes up accordingly. I was a social-psychology major and this subject is a common one.

When the hijab is present, fundamentalist Islamist men feel empowered by it. They start looking at any woman who doesn't wear the hijab as a whore. They start thinking of Jews as "misguided people" and their natural enemies. They begin attacking both groups, regularly and violently. They start using their religion as an excuse for this behavior. Eventually, they form a lesser regard for all women because of such scripture as the following:

quote:

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Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

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Sounds like the old adage: "All people are created equal, but some are more equal than others."

Sura 2.282:

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But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember.

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Which is to say that, according to Koran, women are intellectually deficient and unreliable as witnesses. Pardon me while I vehemently disagree! It sounds like a regular Old Boys Club! In Nahjulbalagha, Khutba 83, Ali adds to this insult, crowing:

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O People! Women suffer from three deficiencies: of faith, of mind, and of a share in heritage. Their deficiency in religion is apparent from the fact that at certain times they keep away from prayers and fasting. Deficiency of mind could be gauged from the circumstance that two female witnesses are considered equal to one male, and deficiency in shares of heritage is plain from the incident, that their share is equal to half of the share of male members.

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Keep yourself away from the wiles of wicked women, and do not indulge too much even in good ones. Do not blindly follow their advice even in good deeds, so that they may not be tempted to lead you toward bad ones.

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But it is personal experience that has made the biggest impression on me. I used to be a hijab wearer. In the U.S., when I was still married to the Iranian, non-Muslim men tended to regard me as untouchable as a nun. I looked like one. When I went to live in the Islamic Repblic of Iran, it was a different story, because all women, willing or not, were forced to wear the hijab and men were being raised to believe that a woman is worth half of a man, not to be trusted, and if a man couldn't control his baser instincts around her, it was her fault, not his.

Everywhere I went in Iran, men would make grabs at my behind so that, defensively, I learned to kick straight backward at groin level when I heard one's stealthy approach. Somehow, I never did mistakenly kick an innocent; the hand was already fastening on my behind when my kick went out. A satisfactory "Umph!!" always followed. That time I mentioned when I wanted to break the guy's nose was in a crowded bazaar in Mashad with my husband and his whole family around. I hadn't heard the guy sneak up on me that time.

I've never had to endure so much sexual harrassment in my life! Once I left the hijab and Dar Islam behind, it never happened again.

I compared notes with other women who had worn the hijab and lived in Dar Islam for awhile. All told about the same story. One woman, also defensive, was very scared by it and wanted to be armed everywhere she went, but they wouldn't let her carry a gun. She had to settle for an electric cattle prod. This was in Saudi Arabia and, more than simple butt grabbers, the men there made constant lewd gestures & propositions to her. The next time a guy jumped out in front of with lewd innuendo and started jacking off in front of her, she zanged him on the winger with her cattle prod and left him on sobbing on his knees.

You can wear hijab and feel good about it if you like. You may continue to do so if nothing happens to jar your illusions, but it is basic respect for women as human beings that makes the difference in how they are treated; not just a piece of cloth. That piece of cloth, however, can make a difference in how women are viewed and, demonstratably, that is not always a good thing.

Hinterland, tell me about your experience with the world. You say we have had similar experiences? Which ones? And which of my attitudes do you consider bizarre.

About my love of Canada, by the way, I want to reassure you all that I wouldn't have any affection for it all if the people I'd met there had been as touchy as you guys. The Candians I met, in places like Victoria B.C. and Banf, were warm, friendly, easy-going, and not the least bit touchy or judgemental.

[ 18 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 18 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

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Check the European statistics on this.

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quote:

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But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember.

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About my love of Canada, by the way, I want to reassure you all that I wouldn't have any affection for it all if the people I'd met there had been as touchy as you guys. The Candians I met, in places like Victoria B.C. and Banf, were warm, friendly, easy-going, and not the least bit touchy or judgemental.

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Well, hell, they were obviously high as kite!

You obviously don't get what babblers have been trying to tell you, you don't seem to understand that it is you who caused offense. It's not judgemental to react to being offended or insulted. It's not touchy to be annoyed when someone casual talks about disregarding something you may be proud of in some way.

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Yes it is "a ridiculously touchy notion." What are you? Paranoid?

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In a word, yes. There is an entire culture of paranoia here in Canada when it comes to the States.

For me, I'm not paranoid that the United States will take us over militarily. But, the administration just makes me want to vomit all the time.

Not everyone is as touchy as some of the folks on this board. In fact, the most touchy people I've ever "met" are on Rabble. So, just as I won't judge all of the United States based on Fox News, Don't judge Canada based only on Rabble. It is a part of Canada, but, it doesn't define it.

--------------------------------

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About my love of Canada, by the way, I want to reassure you all that I wouldn't have any affection for it all if the people I'd met there had been as touchy as you guys. The Candians I met, in places like Victoria B.C. and Banf, were warm, friendly, easy-going, and not the least bit touchy or judgemental.

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I guess we should all indulge your painfully naive observations and condescending attitute, otherwise you won't love us as much?

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Originally posted by Ampbreia:

The Canadians I met, in places like Victoria B.C. and Banff, were warm, friendly, easy-going, and not the least bit touchy or judgemental.

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Did you tell them you didn't think of Canada as a separate country? I find it difficult to envision any Canadian not on working hours in the hospitality industry reacting well to such a comment. Well, or high finance.
Why exactly is it that you can't seem to dig the idea that this is a disrespectful thing to say?

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About my love of Canada, by the way, I want to reassure you all that I wouldn't have any affection for it all if the people I'd met there had been as touchy as you guys. The Candians I met, in places like Victoria B.C. and Banf, were warm, friendly, easy-going, and not the least bit touchy or judgemental.

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According to Lucienne Bui-Trong, the officer in charge of the Towns and Suburbs Department at the Renseignements generaux (general intelligence) of the French police, no less than one thousand Muslim neighborhoods are under monitoring throughout France, which means that the National Police keeps more personnel there to prevent public disorder. Violence and crime are rampant in those areas. Seven hundred Muslim neighborhoods are listed as "violent"; four hundred are listed as "very violent," meaning not just that organized crime and firearms are present but that residents have a systematic strategy to keep the police out. The Ile-de-France has 226 violent neighborhoods, Provence-C"te d'Azur has 89, Rh"ne-Alpes 62, and Rh"ne-Pas-de-Calais 61.15.

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Unemployment is rife in these suburbs, with 470,000 registered unemployed adults in 1993, or roughly one third of the total adult manpower.16 Violence ranges from theft and looting of cars (58 percent of all offenses) and street fighting to assault on teachers and civil servants (10 percent). Perhaps most distressing are the high numbers of assaults or rebellions against the police (19 percent).17 Periodic outbursts of large-scale unrest or rioting sometimes occur. The first major riots occurred at Vaulx-en-Velin, a Lyons suburb, in 1990; since then, further riots have taken place in the Paris suburbs. In addition, riots have even taken place at the seaside or mountain resort sites where suburbanite youngsters are sometimes placed for government-sponsored vacations.

As the notion of a government-sponsored vacation suggests, French suburbs have hardly been neglected by the authorities. Since the riot there in 1990, Vaulx-en-Velin has benefited from a $50 million program financed by the central government since 1990: each of the town's 45,000 inhabitants has had $1,000 spent on him for parks, sport facilities, underground parking lots, public libraries, and kindergartens. The money even goes for museums, including France's most modern planetarium and a Permanent Exhibition Center for Minorities. At the national level, $3 billion has been earmarked in French fiscal year 1995 for "urban policies" (a euphemism for ghetto rehabilitation).

And yet, the government has little to show for its expenditures: crime and unrest are both sharply on the rise at Vaulx-en-Velin and everywhere else. The basic assumption underlying this welfare policy -- that unrest is the result of poverty and a shabby urban environment -- would seem to be proven wrong.
In fact, as many sociologists -- including Muslim ones -- acknowledge, an almost symbiotic relationship exists in the ghettoes between the underclass way of life and ethnic/religious separatism. Conservative Muslims see the ghettoes as a way to benefit from immigrating to France without having to assimilate into French society. Some level of violence has the advantage of ensuring separation from the outside world and can be used as a bargaining tool with the authorities to get more de facto autonomy -- meaning that Muslim enclaves are ruled only by Muslims according to Islamic law and mores -- as well as to obtain more funding. It also serves as a social control tool against liberal-minded Muslim individuals, for conservative Muslim leaders can easier exert pressure on liberal-minded Muslims -- for instance to compel females to don the veil -- within the context of the ghettos' violence.[/QUOTE]

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Every community has the right to uphold and protect its way of life, so long as minorities' rights are protected as well. Not so long ago, this consideration applied primarily to colonial areas threatened by the industrial West. Arguably, it applies to Western industrial nations as well, should they be threatened by mass immigration. In the case at hand, the main point is not whether mosques may be built or if hallal food may be distributed; but whether polygamy is to be tolerated and the police to operate in Muslim neighborhoods. In other words, Islam ought to adapt to the traditional French way of life, with its emphasis on individual freedom and secularism, rather than the reverse.

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from http://www.meforum.org/article/337

Related article: “Muslim Europe and the Transatlantic Divide” http://www.aicgs.org/events/2004/02192004_summary.shtml

Exerpt from “Muslim immigration has overwhelmed permissive French institutions”

[QOUTE]France is probably the worst affected of all western nations by immigration, since it is on the brink of losing its European identity to the insistent Muslims increasing in numbers within French borders. As they grow in population, they come to believe they can impose the will of Islam on the French people, who seem rather unconcerned with the transformation.

With a population of five million Muslims, France is holding a tiger by the ears. The threat of violence from radical Islamic elements cannot be far from politicians' minds. Wherever there are large numbers of Arabs, there is crime and violence, particularly against women. [/QUOTE]

Here’s another from “France is Not a Western Country Anymore”

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And Jews are not the only victims of France's new identification with radical Islam. In many French cities with a growing radical Islamist population, no teenage girl can go out in the evening, at least not without a full burqa. If she does, it will mean that "she is for everybody": in short, a whore. In the same cities, every teenage girl - regardless of religion - has to wear the Muslim veil if she does not want to be harassed or killed. Almost every month, a young woman is mugged and raped in a suburb of a big city. Gang rape has become so frequent that a new word, used by the rapists themselves to define their hideous actions, is used by everybody: tournantes (revolving). To the rapists, the woman is nothing, a mere object to be thrown away after use. The people who speak about "revolving" seem to forget a human being is involved as the victim. Policemen do nothing. Every decent person knows the problem is Islam, but no one dares to say it. It could be dangerous. The streets are not safe.

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I feel the same way, as an Albertan first, about America. My kinship to my Southern friends is far stronger then to the liberal twats in the East that have ruined my once great nation....and continue to do so.

And remember this Ampbreia, when Islamic terrorists strike here in Canada.....probably Toronto or Montreal, these same liberal anti intellectual fools will be calling on the good ole US of A to rescue there sorry butts from the effects of out of control Islamic immigration!!

Hilariously......the Islamic world does not share the same kumbya spirit about Multiculturism that the NDP morons here in Canada think......there idea is to hide behind nice words like diversity and tolerance.......and of course they will gladly use 'useful idiots' like the NDP and many Liberals to help them along in there way...

Of course we can ask how much religious freedom there is in the 65 Islamic countries for us Dhimmis and Pagans and the resounding answer is none as per Islamic doctrine!

But we do not want to confuse the liberal intelligestia with any facts.....

At least know this......many here in Alberta and the West stand by America.......you have to understand.....after 35 years of state sponsered socialism, the fruit is massive idiocy...
And Canada has its fair share.....believe you me.....

I would suggest to those who have shown themselves vastly ignorant on Islam, to at least do a cursory study of its primary sources before you sing this Arab Ideology anymore praises! And if you have an iota of open mindedness (doubtful) you will at least consider that there is a very very dark side to the Meccan's ideology!

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Out of desperation, because these men refused to control themselves, France posed a law that would make hijab illegal in school since Muslim teenage boys are the ones who cause the most trouble when hijab is present.

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And remember this Ampbreia, when Islamic terrorists strike here in Canada.....probably Toronto or Montreal, these same liberal anti intellectual fools will be calling on the good ole US of A to rescue there sorry butts from the effects of out of control Islamic immigration!!

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And how much did the good ol US of A count toward the 200 killed in Spain last week. ZERO. Why? Becasue the beligerent and jingoitsic premise on which you base you ideas is as remote from reality as Stockwell Days theories of creation.

Sad, that you think you somehow can speak for the people of Alberta, some of the best in Canada that I know. Yet I can say this, but all you can do is come up with sweeping backward nastininess about other Canadians. Move south, if you don't like it here.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Sorry I couldn't find the cut and dry number charts for you, but I have collected up some articles for you that put it a bit more elouquently. Happy reading!

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So in fact you have no evidence to support your thesis that the Hejab is responsble for rape. Be honest, it is just a theory of yours. Right?

Or perhaps you can direct me to some sociological research supporting your thesis. Surely you must have got this idea from somewhere.

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I'd rather talk to real Candanians.

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Hoo ha! You can't stay out of the doo doo can you?

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weren't real Canadians but just French colonial separatists.

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Oopsies. Ethnic stereotyping not allowed on babble. Tsk, tsk.

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I'm rather tired of you.

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Believe me, the feeling is mutual. What's keeping you here?

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He said you nasty tempered ones weren't real Canadians but just French colonial separatists

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This one is just so funny! You obviously haven't seen our heated threads over Canadian unity. You should try to remeber that speaking on a topic you know nothing is just going to further embarass you.

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Originally posted by Ampbreia:
So my husband was right! He said you nasty tempered ones weren't real Canadians but just French colonial separatists. I'd rather talk to real Candanians. I'm rather tired of you.

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And she just gets more charming doesn't she? I knew sooner or later she'd crack and say something deeply offensive and idiotic. It was just a matter of time.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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And remember this Ampbreia, when Islamic terrorists strike here in Canada... probably Toronto or Montreal, these same liberal anti intellectual fools will be calling on the good ole US of A to rescue there sorry butts from the effects of out of control Islamic immigration!!

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I doubt we’d be coming to the rescue. More likely we’d just strengthen our borders against Canada the way we have against Mexico. Nothing personal, but if you want to invite in Sharia you can keep it and we’ll think you nothing but fools for it. See, this has happened before. Iran brought in the Islamic Regime in 1979 and told us to stay out their affairs. Fine. We withdrew and have had nothing to do with them since. 20 years later, 90% of Iranian society is totally disaffected with the Islamic regime and being suppressed by it with extreme prejudice (demonstrators shot, or in the case of women protesting being forced to wear hijab, acid thrown in their faces, demonstrators being arrested and tortured, one publisher after another shut down…). Now some of the same groups that brought that vile regime into power are begging the U.S. to rescue them from it. We may feel sorry for them, but the general consensus is that until they learn to clean up their own messes they are simply not worth helping for any reason whatsoever. I’m sure it would be the same with Canada if we should watch them bring Sharia law, which seems to be exactly what’s happening.

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Hilariously......the Islamic world does not share the same kumbya spirit about Multiculturism that the NDP morons here in Canada think......there idea is to hide behind nice words like diversity and tolerance.......and of course they will gladly use 'useful idiots' like the NDP and many Liberals to help them along in there way...
Of course we can ask how much religious freedom there is in the 65 Islamic countries for us Dhimmis and Pagans and the resounding answer is none as per Islamic doctrine!

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I agree with you 100% Proud Albertan. I simply tried to avoid going into that too much because Mandos here is a Muslim and has shown himself as nothing but completely gracious and gentle mannered and I don’t wish to upset him. It’s important to remember that though fundamentalism in any religion is incredibly dangerous to live with and there are a lot of these in Islam, not every Muslim is a fundamentalist and those shouldn’t be held to blame for the total havoc their extremist brethren tend to make.

My daughter got an e-mail last night that comically illustrated what a lousy world we’d live in if even Christianity went fundamentalist again like it did in the Dark Ages. It’s addressed rhetorically to President Bush the latent fundamentalist:

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Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Moral indignation is envy with a halo.
H.G. Wells

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I don’t really dislike Bush even when I don’t always agree with him. Mostly he’s okay. I’m just glad there’s such a clean division of religion and state in the U.S. that it would be practically impossible for religious law to befall us all either sidewise (ala Sharia in Canada) or directly. I couldn’t live that way. Been there done that.

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So why is the answer to a problem with the men the limitation of the choices of women? Women and girls need the help required to deal with these difficulties; men need to learn more appropriate ways of relating to women. Neither of these things is accomplished by banning items of clothing.

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Actually, I agree with you Doug. The innocent hijab-wearers should not be punished just because Muslim boys can’t learn to control themselves. But you realize, that France my have considered that the more benign solution since going after the boys will require either mass deportations (not a bad idea) or acts of extreme violence in order to counter their own extremist brand of violence.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

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See, this has happened before. Iran brought in the Islamic Regime in 1979 and told us to stay out their affairs. Fine. We withdrew and have had nothing to do with them since.

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I’m just glad there’s such a clean division of religion and state in the U.S. that it would be practically impossible for religious law to befall us all either sidewise (ala Sharia in Canada) or directly. I couldn’t live that way. Been there done that.

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Your kidding right? Do you listen to your President speak? Or do you only listen to what your husband tells you?

As for Canada allowing in Sharia law, you obviously have no knowledge of in what manner it has been discussed being used. You also seem to have little info on the other "peoples" in Canada allowed latitude in self-governance. There is plenty of info here on babble if you just take a look around.

As for your bitching about Canadians not being as nice as you thought:

A: Boo frickin hoo. By nice you meant people who roll over and ask our smarter American neighbours to pat our bellies when they believe they have given out the highest compliment, and rewarded us for not fighting our assimilation.

As to insulting your French Canadians, I paid what I mistakenly thought was a compliment, trying to express that I didn't consider them 'alien' or 'OTHER' to my own people, that we have a lot in common besides just a border. They responded to this as though I had insulted them and then commenced to insulting me in exactly the tones I last heard in Paris. Can't say anything right to people like that; they can make anything into an insult. So, I responded in kind. Screw them.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Ampbreia ]

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And remember this Ampbreia, when Islamic terrorists strike here in Canada... probably Toronto or Montreal, these same liberal anti intellectual fools will be calling on the good ole US of A to rescue there sorry butts from the effects of out of control Islamic immigration!!

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quote:

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The veil or hijab may be a factor in the low incidence rate of nasopharyngeal (nose) cancer among Saudi women according to Dr. Kamal Malakar, head of the oncology department at the Princess Norah Oncology Center at the National Guard Hospital in Jeddah.

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Wait and see jack ass. I'm gone now. I know you won't miss me nor I you.

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Well, her work is done. She made no convincing argument regarding the pros or cons of wearing the hijab, she sounded hysterical, and she made racist remarks.

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Wait and see jack ass.

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I don't know why I'd have to wait and see Jackass, it's out on DVD now and has been for months. What does it have to do with this thread anyway!

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I'm gone now. I know you won't miss me nor I you.

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Originally posted by Ampbreia:
Revisionist? They held Americans hostage and they threw us out. Okay? You know this right?

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Yeah, and then there was this little thing called Iran contra, during the Iran-Iraq war for eight years of the following decade. You know this, right?

As I said before. Utter ignorance.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

That being said, I share some of the misgivings of the Canadian Council for Muslim Women about the motivations and thinking of the people who want to set it up; the misgivings are not that these people want to "conquer Canada" or something, but rather their theological claims and motivations within the Muslim community, including the all-important question of "whose Sharia?"

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Ask for some evidence though, and people accuse you of being French Canadian

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...yeah, I know. THAT old dodge.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

Well, Guy LaFleur never wore Hejab. He was an old school warrior.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]