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Topic: The jobs of a mother
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Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448
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posted 24 October 2004 05:12 PM
Thinking that there is more to life for a woman than being a mother is not being "anti-mother". Heinz-Kerry IS a mother, did stay home with her kids, and has had time in the work force as well.Laura Bush quit working after marriage, if I remember correctly. She's filthy rich, so I expect there was very little dirtying of her hands with diaper changes. And now that the "children" are in their 20s, I think it's safe to assume she's had a number of years where she hasn't had a lot of mothering demands placed on her time. So what else has she accomplished? I mean, besides being vacuous? I think women should be able to choose to be home full time. On a personal level, that would be a sort of death for me. I think one becomes a more rounded person if you have other accomplishments in addition to being a parent. Work is not so much a want for me as it is a need. Other women may not need it, but there is a significant number of women who do, and I honestly have more admiration for them. JMO. [ 24 October 2004: Message edited by: Zoot ]
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438
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posted 24 October 2004 05:25 PM
quote: Then she should campaign for office. There are few things more inherently sexist than the office of "First Lady". Except for a bit of glamour with Mila and scandal with Margaret, we mercifully stay away from that crap. I was disenheartened to see it spread to Britain with Cherie Blair. Women should be judged as candidates, not as unelected wives.
I agree that the whole first lady piece is wrong although I wouldn't say it's sexist. It just seems to take the focus off of real issues and gravitate towards such pressing matters as wardrobe an dhair. I agree that women should be judged as candidates and not as unelected wives but I think that if you are going to speak out as the wife of a politican you should not be surprised that your words carry influence and weight. Choose your words carefully. If you dont' want in the political arena - don't campaign. And I didn't feel that MS Kerry was being judged as a candidate but more as a human being. Her words say a lot about how she values women who make different choices than her own. quote: But interesting point you raise; does Sen. Kerry agree with his wife that being a mother is not an important job? If not full time mothers bets take notice and vote against this anti-mother couple.
Perhaps I am naive but I don't believe that someone who valued the role of a homemaker would marry someone who spoke so disdainfully for the rule. The fact that she has continued to be on the campaign trail with him also suggests he is comfortable with how she presents herself. I would say he is at least tolerant of her views. quote: Thinking that there is more to life for a woman than being a mother is not being "anti-mother". Heinz-Kerry IS a mother, did stay home with her kids, and has had time in the work force as well.
I would agree that if someone believes that there are roles other than mothering that that doesn't make them anti-mother. I don't believe that that is what MS. Kerry said. She appeared to be suggesting that it wasn't a worthy job. quote: Laura Bush quit working after marriage, if I remember correctly. She's filthy rich, so I expect there was very little dirtying of her hands with diaper changes. And now that the "children" are in their 20s, I think it's safe to assume she's had a number of years where she hasn't had a lot of mothering demands placed on her time. So what else has she accomplished? I mean, besides being vacuous?
Laura Bush married and chose to stay home with her daughters. She assisted her husband in his career through her role of wife. I don't believe that any of these things are wrong and I'm disappointed that you would infer that. I believe that MS. Kerry is a more well to do person than George W. Bush but I could be wrong. I understand that her wealth was inherited from her ex-husband's time in the workforce and that her current husband benefits from her deceased husband's labour as well. I am not a fan of Laura Bush. She is prochoice which is not within my comfort zone. As well she wasn't an effectual parent. For someone who made her life's vocation her children she certainly has not been able to demonstrate success in that role as her daughters have committed crimes while their father is president and seem to be very party-oriented. What has Laura accomplished? I think that she has a marriage of over 1/4 of a century to celebrate. Laura has supported her husbands political ambitions and her style has assisted the President in many ways. She has raised two healthy children who have completed their studies and have plans for their future. She is a gracious soft spoken woman and has admirable character traits in some area. quote: I think women should be able to choose to be home full time. On a persoal level, that would be a sort of death for me. I think one becomes a more rounded person if you have other accomplishments in addition to being a parent. Work is not so much a want for me as it is a need. Other women may not need it, but there is a significant number of women who do, and I honestly have more admiration for them. JMO.
You are certainly entitled to hold women who work outside the home and place their children in alternative care situations in more esteem than you do women who are at home full time. That's your perogative. I would, however encourage you to ask yourself if you saw a more traditional person post that they "honestly have more admiration" for women who stay home and don't place their children in those situations you would not like it. You would see that as an effort to make women feel guilty for their choices. It seems, to me, that it should be a two way street and not a one way street.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 24 October 2004 05:31 PM
I was talking about democracy.Do you care about democracy, Hailey? Do you understand the place in the history of democracy of the Constitution of the United States? No, it isn't the first or the greatest such document, Hailey ... but it matters. And why would any committed democrat care about the relatives of any candidate?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440
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posted 24 October 2004 05:42 PM
quote: Originally posted by Hailey: I would agree that if someone believes that there are roles other than mothering that that doesn't make them anti-mother. I don't believe that that is what MS. Kerry said. She appeared to be suggesting that it wasn't a worthy job.
I have an idea. Why don't we look at what Ms. Kerry actually said: quote: "Well, you know, I don't know Laura Bush. But she seems to be calm, and she has a sparkle in her eye, which is good. But I don't know that she's ever had a real job -- I mean, since she's been grown up. So her experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things."She added, "And I'm older, and my validation of what I do and what I believe and my experience is a little bit bigger -- because I'm older, and I've had different experiences. And it's not a criticism of her. It's just, you know, what life is about."
Her experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things.Let us also note that Ms. Kerry has apologized for the factual error in her comments. And I would submit that's all that requires an apology because nothing in her comments suggests that being a full-time mother is unworthy. All she's saying is that working outside the home offers different experiences and can affect one's point of view.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002
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Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448
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posted 24 October 2004 05:51 PM
quote: I don't believe that that is what MS. Kerry said. She appeared to be suggesting that it wasn't a worthy job.
Nonsense. She noted that there are some things that Laura Bush hasn't experienced, namely, what middle and working class women all over America do every day -- working for a living. She'd forgotten that Laura had a job before marriage and apologized for the mistake. I don't think she ever suggested that being a stay at home parent wasn't a worthy job -- she has, in fact, done that very thing herself. quote: Laura Bush married and chose to stay home with her daughters. She assisted her husband in his career through her role of wife. I don't believe that any of these things are wrong and I'm disappointed that you would infer that.
Oh, balls! If you think she didn't have a staff of full time nannies, you're delusional. And assist her husband, how, exactly? By ordering the maid to make sure the tv room was stocked with pretzels? Having cook prepare his favourite meal? She has done very little campaigning up to now, in either the bid for governor or president (first election). quote: I believe that MS. Kerry is a more well to do person than George W. Bush but I could be wrong. I understand that her wealth was inherited from her ex-husband's time in the workforce and that her current husband benefits from her deceased husband's labour as well.
Yes, she may be. However, she has run a multi-million dollar foundation -- rather more successfully, btw, than any of Georgie Porgie's business ventures. quote: What has Laura accomplished? I think that she has a marriage of over 1/4 of a century to celebrate. Laura has supported her husbands political ambitions and her style has assisted the President in many ways. She has raised two healthy children who have completed their studies and have plans for their future. She is a gracious soft spoken woman and has admirable character traits in some area.
I don't know that she does. She comes off as such a cipher. Like she's heavily tranquilized. Hell, if I had to live with George Bush, I know I would be. How has her "style" assisted much of anything? I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. She wore the right dress? Hired the right decorator? And raising two healthy children isn't much of an accomplishment when you've got a staff and no job to speak of. quote: You are certainly entitled to hold women who work outside the home and place their children in alternative care situations in more esteem than you do women who are at home full time. That's your perogative.
Actually, it's my opinion, and I stated it as such. I believe that women who raise kids and work are more rounded humans, and that makes them better parents. I don't really give a good goddam whether you agree with that or not. quote: I would, however encourage you to ask yourself if you saw a more traditional person post that they "honestly have more admiration" for women who stay home and don't place their children in those situations you would not like it. You would see that as an effort to make women feel guilty for their choices. It seems, to me, that it should be a two way street and not a one way street.
What makes you think it isn't? I absolutely support women (men, too, actually) in being able to choose to stay home full time. I don't think it's a smart or healthy choice, but, for those who would choose it, it's their choice. If someone admires stay at home parents more than their working counterparts, that's also their choice. Whatever. I don't really care. As long as they aren't going on about how working and daycare damages children (there's no evidence that it does), I have no problem with that. I don't think I stated that stay at home mothers damage their children, specifically. I just don't think it's good, long-term, for adults.
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Ravenscript
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6803
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posted 24 October 2004 06:52 PM
Zoot writes: "Actually, it's my opinion, and I stated it as such. I believe that women who raise kids and work are more rounded humans, and that makes them better parents."What exactly is the criteria for being a well-rounded parent that working automatically fulfills? I guess the above comment made me think of my Mom, who was a stay-at-home mom but contributed a great deal to her community through unpaid volunteer work. So I guess I think that there's more to being well-rounded than being paid for your labor. If it's having a sense of self as a citizen of the world (which, presumably, working would provide), then I think it could be argued that my mother was well-rounded parent. Weirdly enough, the same could be said of Barbara Bush, who has always been active in charitable work.
From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2004
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Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448
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posted 24 October 2004 07:02 PM
Ech, Barbara Bush! *shudder*Yes, I'd say your mother was. However, I'd estimate that the majority of stay at home mothers don't volunteer. Mine didn't, during the stints where she could afford to stay home. She now admits that her working life, while stressful, did have its benefits. She found a way to combine the two by selling Avon (6 territories at once!) before anybody ever considered offering parents of either sex flex hours. I do think there is a benefit to dealing with something in addition to child-rearing and housekeeping, whether it is paid or not. I don't know if Heinz-Kerry's position was paid, but she worked at something. It widens the sphere of your existence. Besides which, kids grow up. You can make them your career for only a limited time, unless you intend to have a lot of them. Most women don't, limiting families to three or fewer children. They're high-maintenance at the beginning, but that lightens up a lot later on. [ 24 October 2004: Message edited by: Zoot ]
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 24 October 2004 07:19 PM
quote: I understand that her wealth was inherited from her ex-husband's time in the workforce and that her current husband benefits from her deceased husband's labour as well.
Excuse me for interrupting, but as a description of the Heinz fortune, I think that this is one of the funniest single sentences ever posted to babble. The point about women and work is that most women always have worked, and most of them outside the home as well as in, simply because most PEOPLE have never had enough money to make ends meet since we all urbanized. I also find it difficult to imagine that Laura has had a lot to do beyond directing the servants, but who knows? But again: why does it matter? I think of my own two enormously extended families. If I were to run for elected office, do you know how many flap-mouths of how many different political persuasions I could be embarrassed by, on three continents no less? The political exploitation of the candidates' families, of personal lives, is indicative of a serious dumbing-down of our political culture. Yes, moral fibre matters when we assess candidates for public office. But one's ability to fit perfectly into an American TV sitcom shouldn't.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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Ravenscript
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6803
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posted 24 October 2004 07:22 PM
I am definitely on the odd side of the argument today...I think it's a cliche that stay-at-home Moms are insular, child-centric women that don't have an investment in the wider community, just like I think it's a cliche that working moms short change the quality of their children's lives. I've know one-dimensional and multi-dimentional women in both categories. It's a moot point to me whether Barbara Bush stayed home or Ms. Kerry worked outside the home... both can be extremely insular since seeing the world through predominantly business lenses is just as narrow as being predominately child-centric... Blinders are dangerous, regardless. I am far more interested in the quality of their opinions than whether, as stay-at-home or working Moms, they are better placed to understand the world, or make better parents.
From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2004
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pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440
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posted 25 October 2004 12:49 AM
quote: Originally posted by Hailey: Pogge I think that George Bush is incredibly poor in his choice of words and he frequently stumbles. It is not acceptable for a man in his position. I would do it with both equally.
I have difficulty believing that. Willy started the thread by taking one phrase out of context without providing a link or a quote. And it can only be for lack of trying because it took me less than a minute to find it. Then you chimed in, again with no effort to look at what Kerry said in context or to see what her real point might have been. So I went and found the exact words which I would submit say something quite different than what you and Willy claim, and you've completely ignored it. I don't think that Kerry can really speak for the average American any more than skdadl or Hinterland do. But I also think Kerry's been taken out of context to support some pre-conceived notions here and to support a little good old-fashioned liberal-bashing.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014
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posted 25 October 2004 01:48 AM
quote: ...shrill and full-on, think that the pampered elite of American society have anything real or important to say about anything. Why do you do this?
Biger Willy? Hailey? ...*crickets?*
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438
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posted 25 October 2004 01:55 AM
quote: Then you chimed in, again with no effort to look at what Kerry said in context or to see what her real point might have been.
Well youa re entitled to think as you wish but I believe she is suggesting that raising children isn't a real job - other people have interpreted it differently. I find it disdainful towards women who parented full time. quote: But I also think Kerry's been taken out of context to support some pre-conceived notions here and to support a little good old-fashioned liberal-bashing.
I don't believe that I am doing that but I believe that that is happening. It's like being outraged that the Cheney's daughter was referred to as a person who is gay. It's about taking the opportunity to bash someone for points. quote: Some how I don't think he was her ex-husband, it appears he is her dead husband. Mrs. Kerry knows what it's like to be a single Mom. Somebody should be ashamed.
You would be welcome to address me by name if you feel I've made a mistake. He is no longer her husband as she has remarried. If I should have said former husband or that she was widowed that's fine. By the way, even if they were divorced rather than departed through death she would know what it was like to be a single mother. quote: Hailey and Biger Willy...why do either one of you think these people speak for the billions of regular women who make decisions about their lives, every day, in one situation after the next? I'm echoing Skdadl's point here, but both of you, shrill and full-on, think that the pampered elite of American society have anything real or important to say about anything. Why do you do this?
I think that the position of President and first lady allows a great opportunity to have your thinking presented to the world. She has a spotlight in a way that eludes the vast majority of women and I think it would be unrealistic to believe that the president or first lady are not influential.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004
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Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595
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posted 25 October 2004 12:29 PM
quote: She came from a humble background and I believe that she was an active mother.
Hardly humble. Not that it matters, for when she married into the Bush family and became a mother she was fabulously wealthy. It's easy to be a Betty Crocker housewife when you are loaded. You can afford a cleaning lady, several cars, trips around the world, nannies, tutors, private schools, the time to volunteer, medical help if you have post partum, etc. Mostly you can afford the time to spend with your children.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Biger Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6794
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posted 25 October 2004 02:29 PM
quote: Originally posted by pogge:
Do you have a quote to back this up? It's certainly not evident in the quote I supplied.
Yes yes I do. Mrs. Kerry said this about the First Lady, and inturn about all full time mothers: "But I don't know that she's ever had a real job -- I mean, since she's been grown up." REALY JOB?? is being a mother not a real job? I think it is, she does not. This applies to all full time mothers. As for the fact of the Bush’s wealth it really makes not difference. I find this notion that rich people can not be parents to be offensive. It may interest you to know that the President got a ride to school with his mother and not a driver. [ 25 October 2004: Message edited by: Biger Willy ]
From: Winnipeg | Registered: Sep 2004
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Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595
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posted 25 October 2004 02:59 PM
Could you take it down a notch Wily, your foaming at the mouth. quote: As for the fact of the Bush’s wealth it really makes not difference. [/quoteGo sell that to a single parent stuck on welfare. It makes a difference. [quote]I find this notion that rich people can not be parents to be offensive.
Then you should be careful of those notion you dream up. quote: It may interest you to know that the President got a ride to school with his mother and not a driver.
No it doesn't interest me. Lucky him that they had a carlikely an second car, and that she had the time to drive him everyday, that's what I call a luxury back in the day.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370
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posted 26 October 2004 12:28 AM
quote: NOT a feminist issue? It is regarding the value of full time mothers. I fell that it is very relevant. It is regarding 2 privileged women, but it is about how they view a “real job” for women.
...the value of full time mothers. I go along with that. It becomes a choice and should be viewed as a job and there should be a paycheck. And I will repeat, What the hell have Ms Bush and Ms Kelly know about any of this? They don't even think about it and never will. What is the point? To prove a point by using people who are often in the news is a bit farfetched. You don't need them. They ruin the whole thing.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001
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pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440
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posted 26 October 2004 01:46 AM
quote: Originally posted by Hailey: I can just say that in the women's studies classes that I have taken, in media representation of feminist thought and feminist rallies, and in other general opportunities to hear the feminist movement I have not heard them comment positively on homemakers.
So you're characterizing people based on what they haven't said. quote: As well if you ask traditional homemaker organizations - prolife feminists, real women, afwuf, etc they all share that they feel very disenfranchised by the feminist movement who they describe as being unwelcoming towards them.
Or you're characterizing people based on what their detractors have said. quote: In all fairness though I may have missed something...
Gee, you think?
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002
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f1 dad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6141
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posted 26 October 2004 09:36 AM
quote: Originally posted by Biger Willy: It depends largely on the individual. But I challenge you to find evidence that Mrs. Bush had a large staff prior to moving to the Governors House. I believe that they lived in a middle class area. [ 25 October 2004: Message edited by: Biger Willy ]
The guy that led a partnership that owned a major league baseball team was middle class? Huh? What's your definition of middle class?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004
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