An article by Polly Toynbee in the Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,952285,00.html The UN estimates that 2 million women are trafficked globally.

Fighting this trade and refusing that human beings be reduced to the form of commodities to be used and thrown away has nothing to do with the Christian right. And less still with US and other military powers that have brought mass prostitution everywhere they implanted a military base.

[ 15 May 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]

I think the real unholy collaboration is between some strains of feminism and these modern slavers. The sex trade is huge, but a part of a larger pattern of trafficking human beings, a burgeoning trade.

[ 15 May 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]

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Am I not understanding the issue here- Is Bush not fighting against the sex trade? Isn't that a good thing?

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Well, there is 'fighting' and fighting.
He says, that's bad, don't do that, and nobody had better try to legalize it.
At the same time, he's sucking all the money out of social programs at home and abroad; he's supporting despots and helping to create economic structures that make sex-trade (and slave-trade) profitable for the exploiters, unavoidable for the victims.
When poverty is deep enough and wide enough, people sell themselves and their children; people are enslaved for debt; people sneak across borders (and put themselves in the hands of ruthless traffickers) for a chance to make any kind of living. When despotism is unchecked and popular revolt is drowned in blood, people are rendered homless, orphaned, made destitute by whatever thugs are in power.

The position I take is almost unanimous in France and prevalent in Québec, though there are groups such as Stella who take the opposite view. I assure you that most of us in the Gallic world are not adverse to a roll in the hay! (positive stereotype, I know... ).

Here is a quote from lawyer and long-term feminist Gisèle Halimi, who defended the accused in the famous "salopes" (sluts) case about abortion rights, as well as FLN defendants in the Algerian independence struggle, and a link to the consultations held by the FFQ here in Québec. These consultations heard Stella and other groups that favour legalisation but could not go along with the idea of prostitution as a job like any other.

The question of protection for people in prostitution - against violence, against stealing their incomes, pimps and especially intimidation by immigration authorities as it becomes more and more an international trade remains. Prostitutes must never be victimised, but those pulling the strings of the prostitutional system is another matter.

"It is a disastrous suggestion," railed Halimi, who co-founded the pro-choice group Choisir with De Beauvoir and worked as a lawyer for her and Jean-Paul Sartre. She said: "Prostitution is the paroxysm of a woman's non-power over herself. Whatever anyone says, no woman chooses freely to make her body the object of an exchange of money for pleasure."

That said, this group is very much made up of the educated and (usually) fairly well-off scions of the middle class. As such, they are vastly in the minority when it comes to sex work. Without question, the overwhelming majority of the time prostitution is simply exploitation. It's vitally important to separate these two groups. You never want to lump in organic farmers with migrant farmhands and say "they're all exploited." Equally, you don't want to point to organic farmers and tell people this proves that migrant farmhands aren't exploited.

Unionizing for sex-workers is useful because it can address the needs of both groups. For those who are being exploited it provides a measure of protection, and a potential means to get out of "the life". For those who choose to get involved, it gives them the same benefits as other unionized workers.

I strongly feel feminists need to pursue the fact that it's the exploitation, not the sex, that they object to. That gets to the heart of the probem.

Women's (and men's!) sexual choices are indeed affected by the dynamics of their society. However, you can't solve this by dictating a different dynamic, by which they "should" be affected instead. Rather, one has to broaden the opportunity to choose for women - even where those choices may not be palatable to those fighting for them. The only real way to encourage change is to provide viable alternatives, socially and economically. Then perhaps we may see sex work shift back where it belongs, to those who do it for kicks.

[ 16 May 2003: Message edited by: April Follies ]

I just thought I'd drop in my perspective -- I fit squarely in the catagory of priviledged women who chose sex work. I was in school, and frustrated with having to work crazy hours at a job I hated to pay the bills. The choice, for me, was between selling my time for $7/hr or $250/hr, and since I had access to the internet, I was my own 'boss'. I can't say I generally enjoyed it, but I honestly felt more exploited working retail for less than what my time was really worth to me.

I was making as 'free' a choice as anyone on the low end of the labour market. We sell ourselves in so many ways in our society and, really, sex work is to selling a sexual relationship as counselling is to selling a friendship. Of course, most people in sex work aren't as lucky as I, but legalisation not only stops the criminalisation of those who choose to do sex work, it also works as a harm-reduction policy.

The rabble article says "no more funding for ... “organizations advocating prostitution as an employment choice or which advocate or support the legalization of prostitution.”"

Legalizing prostitution (or, in Canada, everything surrounding it, like living off the profits of and communicating for) can give sex workers protection by and from police, allow freer access to medical care, let workers organize, and give 'pimps' less power by taking sex work out of the realm of organized crime.

I gather that currently the most exploited class - women who are actually out on the streets, heaven help them - may make $20 a job in some cases in the poorer regions of the States. In even more deprived areas of the world, the fee may be "a meal" or "don't beat me please." This sort of slavery and near-slavery would of course not be permitted in regulated prostitution.

My mother, with whom I've had a couple of discussions on this topic, has a good counter-point. If we legalized prostitution, she argues, illegal prostitution would still continue, even as the illegal drug trade thrives though alcohol and tobacco are legal. There will, she argues, always be a market for all those aspects that regulation would prhibit, and therefore the criminals would just shift to cover those (generally reprehensible) areas. Further, she contends, the existence of legalized prostitution would give a sheen of societal sanction to such practices.

Our society which is predominantly WASP fears sex and all its associations - look at our chosen profanity compared to a culture that fears the church or God - That which we profane is also what we fear the most. But thats a whole other topic.

However it does explain the preoccupation with prostitution and morality.

You can get up at 6:00 am for a shift at Mickey Ds - work 6 hours and make in some provinces, $30.00. Less your 16% taxes after personal deductions. Or you can roll out of bed at noon, pick up a John and make $200.00 for an hours work, tops. Which sounds more appealing to young girls? They want money for clothes, makeup, cds, rent, food, parties .. It isnt hard to see why so many choose the sex trade.

Todays morals are completely different and a conservative guestimate of the young women I know is that they will have had a couple of dozen sex partners before they reach the age of 21. And thats being conservative. The belief that sex should be with someone who have a special feeling for or love for is pretty much passe these days.

If sex has become recreational then why not commercial? This is how they think, and in a logical way it does make sense.

Is there a difference between using your brain to earn money? Or your muscles? An athlete is using his/her body to their benefit. Before you say but sex is different - remember our cultural fear of sex. What else can you base your argument on?

Some of the girls I have counseled do seem to have self esteem issues, or what I preceive to be self esteem issues but maybe I am old fashioned in my thinking that they should value their bodies and that prostituion is some way devalues them. (?) I am a creature of my own culture, which was different when I was young then it is today.

The ugly flip side of course is slavery, degradation and violence. If there were some ways to prevent these aspects of the sex trade from happening then what argument could we use to oppose it? This aspect horrifies me, sickens me. I will never understand the horror that human beings are capable of visiting upon their own kind.

A middle aged friend of mine says if she had her life to live over she would be a stripper rather than an ad exec. I can see her reasoning. She has worked hard all her life as a single parent.
In her opinion she would have had more fun as a stripper, and better pay.

However if Bush or anyone tends to wage war on the sex trade they should be hitting the clients just as hard as the people working it.

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You can get up at 6:00 am for a shift at Mickey Ds - work 6 hours and make in some provinces, $30.00. Less your 16% taxes after personal deductions. Or you can roll out of bed at noon, pick up a John and make $200.00 for an hours work, tops. Which sounds more appealing to young girls? They want money for clothes, makeup, cds, rent, food, parties .. It isnt hard to see why so many choose the sex trade.

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Exactly! This is just it. I find it interesting that, in a society where men make the most money, when there is something that women have that men want, and that women can sell to men for big bucks, society makes it illegal for them to do so, and sticks a great big nasty stigma on it besides.

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Todays morals are completely different and a conservative guestimate of the young women I know is that they will have had a couple of dozen sex partners before they reach the age of 21. And thats being conservative.

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Strange. I don't know even one woman who had that many sex partners before they were 21. None of my friends in high school did. None of the women I know now did back when they were that age. And I don't know any female teenagers who have had that many partners before they're 21. Now I do know a couple of women who have had many partners during their 20's. But they're the exception among women I know, not the rule.

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The belief that sex should be with someone who have a special feeling for or love for is pretty much passe these days.

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You think so? I don't know if I believe that. We're still getting sold "true love triumphs over all" in all the Hollywood flicks, and most women I know would rather have sex with love than without it. But again, maybe we have had experience with women with very different attitudes.

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A middle aged friend of mine says if she had her life to live over she would be a stripper rather than an ad exec. I can see her reasoning. She has worked hard all her life as a single parent. In her opinion she would have had more fun as a stripper, and better pay.

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I can see her point. I've never been in the position to have been able to do that, not having the body for it. But if I had, I can't say for sure that I wouldn't have done it. When I left high school, I worked for $6 an hour at a bakery. Stripping for a few hundred bucks a night would have been pretty damned tempting if you ask me. Prostitution I'm not so sure about - whether it's a cultural taboo or not, I doubt I would have been able to do that. But I won't condemn women who do, that's for sure.

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However if Bush or anyone tends to wage war on the sex trade they should be hitting the clients just as hard as the people working it.

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See, that's just it. That'll never happen. Because the only way men like Bush can tolerate the sex trade is if women are in the weaker position. People like Bush can't stand the thought of women having the upper hand in transactions such as money for sex. And I think it IS possible for women to have the upper hand in those transactions if there were a shift in how we think of it. If a guy pays me $250 for an hour or two of sex, who has the upper hand? He's out $250 and I have not only a high income but a skilled service that I can use to make that money over and over again.

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Drugs are illegal, you get busted for buying and using - it isnt just the dealer who gets nailed. Fair is fair.

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I suspect that if you get into any kind of sex-work for fun, it can remain fun, as long as one doesn't overwork, or have bad experiences. But for people who get into it for money, convenience, or (most often, I fear) survival, I can't imagine that it would start with any good associations, much less get better along the way. No "Pretty Woman" here.

There are lots of wives who, after years of marriage, don't want sex much either. Maybe the same type of dynamic is at work that April Follies is describing? When it gets to be a duty, it's not much fun anymore, whether you get paid for it or not. Depends on your attitude toward it, whether you're doing it for money, doing it for marital security, or doing it for fun.

[ 17 May 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]

But at one point did self esteem become an issue? Did they hit the trade because of low self esteem? Two girls I worked with did admit to being molested by male family members. The others didnt have that experience. Bad relationships with parents and family members yes, but it's pretty darn hard to say which came first, the chicken or the egg - because all of them had one thing in common. They were all strong willed teens who did what they wanted to do -

Honestly after all that experience with them I have to say I just dont know. It was very hard for me to step outside my own values and see their side of it.

Some of the stories were hard to listen to, a few had experienced degradation and abuse - one native girl I will never forget, she will be in my mind forever. The things she told me I have never even been able to tell anyone else ... Thats when its wrong.. and shouldnt be happening.

A mentally challenged young man I know was hired by a bar to dress up as a caveman and put on a "performance". For this he was paid minimum wage plus tips. His handicap was evident in his appearance so he suited his role in that way. Clearly it was this that prompted the bar owner to offer him the job - and coach him to behave in "neathderthal" ways and grunt and jump around.

Now this boy enjoyed his job, he was being paid, he was proud of the fact that he was working and independent, but on the other hand his employer WAS exploiting his handicap and one could argue in a very cruel way. People were laughing AT him, he thought they were laughing WITH him -- ad he thought of himself as an actor.

What do you do as a counselor? Is it exploitation if Trev thinks its okay? If you told him he was being exploited and people were making fun of him he would have been crushed --

He was there by choice. He didnt understand all the nuances of the situation but is it important that he does?

I questioned him as to whether anyone was being mean to him, making him feel bad or hurting him in any way. He said no to all of it.

This was one of the toughest situations I ever ran into. I consulted another counselor or also questioned Trev about the job, how he felt about it, how he was treated - ultimately we decided it was in his best interest to let it go and monitor the situation as best we could.

As for the issue of choosing between working at McDonalds and working as a prostitute -- in my view, it's more accurately characterized as being a question of choosing between being a McDonalds employee and being a McDonalds Hamburger...

A big part of the phenomenon is missing from the discussion above -- that of the consumers. I know several men who have been customers, and occasionally have the opportunity to discuss this issue with other men I know. No man I know is buying arguments that the sex trade can be empowering for women.

The idea that society will be able to quickly shed the substantial stigma and taboo attached to prostitution is utopian, IMO. The best we might be able to achieve would be a society where prostitution is tolerated. It could be hundreds of years before society is transformed into one where sex has the same connotations for power and deservedness as hair colour. Until then, sex as a commodity will continue to be about power and control.

[ 18 May 2003: Message edited by: verbatim ]

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As for the generation that doesnt equate sex with love or love with sex, I am talking about the girls who are just now 18,19,20 - they dont even seem to know what I am talking about or how it relates to them when you bring it up. Sex is something you do for fun - recreation - its beyond my comprehension but thats what it is.

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Which would explain the almost epidemic of some STDs these days. IE Clamydia (sp?) will go through a whole community.

I was much more comfortable counseling little B&E artists and kids who boosted cars then I ever was the hookers. Because I personally dont get it, I am too old to incorporate this kind of thinking into my own personal values.

I can understand the WHY of it, it would just never be a choice I would personally make.

Another phenomena that supports this kind of commercial thinking if the trend I see for young girls to go after older men (with money and established careers or jobs). A large number want to get married to older men. Its because they dont want to have to save and struggle and wait for the perks in life. They want it all now.

When I was 20 we laughed at older guys trying to pick us up, we even had a term for them - fat, forty and finished - now when I go into a pub I see forty, fifty year old men surrounded by young attractive 20 year old women ...

Too many of them are seeing their parents struggling to make a living even with university degrees - they dont want to be lower middle class, which is sinking faster every day. But even that doesnt explain it because girls from wealthy families are also chosing the sex trade. I think its just seen as "easy money". And it makes them feel as if they have "power".

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I wonder if prostitution affects your self-esteem because society holds it in so little esteem? If attitudes about sex for money were different would prostitutes feel differently about sex, or about their self-esteem?

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[ 19 May 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

Fighting this trade and refusing that human beings be reduced to the form of commodities to be used and thrown away has nothing to do with the Christian right. And less still with US and other military powers that have brought mass prostitution everywhere they implanted a military base.

[ 15 May 2003: Message by: lagatta ]

[ 17 May 2003: Message: Michelle ]

[ 15 May 2003: Message by: lagatta ]

The pro-prostitution side of feminism tend to be extremely ferocious and gets very upset at any attempts to dislodge the criminal gangs which might control their pet agenda.

It is not unusual to find the pimps, child pornographrs and other hoodlums lined up against the anti-trafficking constituency in a solid and harmonious phalanx.

Child pornographers and some feminists jumped into each others arms on the pseudo-child pornography debates as well.

In brothels and lap dancing clubs to boost income they often use Asian girls with shaved genitalia. That sort of thing is like real life pseudo-child sex.

But being a courtesan was one of the few ways creative, intelligent women could live outside marriage or the convent. Now the women who would have been courtesans are in a variety of professions and can screw whomever they want (and who is interested in them, of course).

There is a lot of controversy in the Netherlands and other countries where there is a legal, regulated sex trade, in large part because it hasn't prevented the growth of a black market trade based on trafficking women from Eastern Europe, Africa and elsewhere.

Secondly how can I say this is not a choice I would want my daughter to make but its okay for other women's daughters?

Sometimes our thinking can become too liberal in supporting a position rather than supporting alternatives.

This shit happens all the time. The industrial revolution paupered the artisan class and herded rural people to the cities, where they worked for practically nothing and lived in the worst possible conditions. Then some holier-than-anybody middle-class twerp would come along and say: "Look how debased these people are! They need spiritual guidance."
They need a chance to get paid decent wages for respectable work. And that ain't about to happen.

[ 21 May 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]