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Author Topic: Cuban Parliamentary Committees meet today.
N.Beltov
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posted 08 June 2006 05:50 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yea, that's right. There's a Parliament in Cuba. I know that the "Cuba is a dictatorship" crowd don't like that sort of talk. Too bad. Maybe their heads will explode like the Martians who can't deal with country music.

Cuban Parliamentary Committees meet.

Cuba Daily (news) in English

An article from the above site notes that there are, according to Amnesty International, 72 prisoners of conscience detained in Cuban jails.

"This allegation is rejected by the Cuban government, which argues that all were tried and found guilty of being in the pay of an enemy power — the US."

It is, of course, illegal for candidates for political office in the USA to be paid by foreign powers. It is not illegal for the USA to do the same in other countries, according to US law.

Granma home page in English.

Canadian Network on Cuba.

The U.S. is getting quite frantic these days over events in Latin America. Freedom is contageous and the US doesn't like it. Tough shit, uncle Sam.

The Gramna site has a short piece on Chomsky's recent remarks in New York on this. I expect that ZNet will have a longer version.

[ 08 June 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
deadduck
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posted 08 June 2006 07:05 AM      Profile for deadduck     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi Guys,

Has there been much debate in Cuba over what happens post-Castro? Have the committies dealt with this issue? Just curious. I can imagine regime-change-R-us is just itching on this.


From: far east | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 June 2006 07:20 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to the Cuban Foreign Minister Felipe Pérez Roque there have been 600 assassination attempts by the USA and its minions on the Cuban President. I expect, therefore, the focus is on keeping President Fidel Castro Ruiz alive.

600 assassination attempts on the President's life.

M.Spector wrote a decent post about "post-Fidel" in one of the threads on Cuba. Look up his recent posts and you will find it.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 08 June 2006 08:00 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Poor Cuba, they have such a good thing going. Everything the American's touch goes bad.

Castro might be somewhat a dictator, but he's a friendly dictator who loves his people.

The American leaders, honestly don't give a shit about their people.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
EmmaG
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posted 08 June 2006 08:03 AM      Profile for EmmaG        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hopefully the committees will consider discussing press freedom.
From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 08 June 2006 08:17 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EmmaG:
Hopefully the committees will consider discussing press freedom.
Press freedoms are not any better here.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 June 2006 08:53 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
EmmaG: Hopefully the committees will consider discussing press freedom.

Yes, the importance of the freedom of Forbes magazine to publish despicable, unsubstantiated libelious lies about the Cuban President is very important. Castro challenged Forbes to substantiate their claim of his supposed wealth. The answer? Silence.

It's also important for the USA to beam in the ugly propaganda of "Radio Marti" and encourge illegal emigration, sabotage, and so on. Yes, such "freedom" is very important to the US State Department.

Unlike Canada, there is no commercial TV in Cuba. In place of commercials there are educational campaigns, public service announcements and the like. Terrible! Cubans should be free to listen to advertisements for Big Macs, large block Chevys, and chewing gum with a fresh, rich flavour. Darn those freedom-hating Cubans!

[ 08 June 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
deadduck
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posted 08 June 2006 09:13 AM      Profile for deadduck     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To be fair to EmmaG She may have been supporting freedom of the press and the freedom to challenge the governemnt openly, rather than the freedom to have a media run a la Manufacturing Consent.

Like many non-communists (the dictatorship meaning of common practice rather than the theoretical meaning we'd probably all be happy with) I have a problem with many of the abuses in Cuba, while I admire the Cubans for instituting very egalitarian reforms we should all be enviable of.

Freedom of expression and the press, while they risk being made tools of empire, are in my opinion worthy ideals (are they not?). Freedom doesn't necessrily mean "economic freedom" in the Milton F. sense. Not to put words in the mouths of others of course...


From: far east | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 June 2006 09:47 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If the "free" press is run from the confines of the U.S. Embassey and financed by that country then it hardly seems worth supporting. The USA has been carrying out an undeclared war on Cuba for the last 47 years. Their Embassey makes gigantic efforts to "unify" the "opposition" under its umbrella in preparation for "regime change".

The US activities extends to foreign countries. US pressure stopped Cubans from attending events in Mexico recently. During the 1999 Pan-Am Games in Winnipeg, an entire 4 or 8 page supplement was added to the Winnipeg Sun which consisted almost exclusively of propaganda the purpose of which was to encourage and facilitate "defection" of Cuban athletes during these so-called "friendly" games. I was ashamed that such things were allowed in my own country. The war on Cuba is unending. Why do people have such a hard time understanding this?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 08 June 2006 10:06 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with freedom of the press, too. Because news journalists are being side-stepped and avoided by this Harper mini-regime right now in Ottawa. Bush's "mini me" in Ottawa doesn't have an original thought of his own. Harper and his stetson-hatted cowboys from Alberta really do need insulating from public scrutiny.

And American newspaper reporters did risk their lives in Chile during the fascist years moreso than Canadian reporters who were considered too unimportant to abduct and torture to death in the 1970's and 80's.

Radio Marti in Florida is broadcasting propaganda over Cuba's CATV and radio signal spectrum. Cuban's doing post-degree course work via remote telecom links with Spanish universities are disrupted on purpose. These are not the acts of a friendly nation. They are acts of aggression against the government and people of Cuba, and it should be stopped. We know who the real red menace is in America.

[ 08 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Infocus
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posted 08 June 2006 10:41 AM      Profile for Infocus        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Cubans should be free to listen to advertisements for Big Macs, large block Chevys, and chewing gum with a fresh, rich flavour"

Indeed they should be freeto listen to whatever they wish - whether government pronouncements or advertising for products. However, as we all know, we mere mortals cannot be trusted and thus, must be given only what is gov't approved.

Give us more 'Heritage Minutes'!


From: Nanaimo, B.C. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 08 June 2006 10:56 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Infocus:
[i]Indeed they should be freeto listen to whatever they wish - whether government pronouncements or advertising for products. However, as we all know, we mere mortals cannot be trusted and thus, must be given only what is gov't approved.

Yes, and now our health scientists are saying there is an obesity crisis in North America. North American children today will enjoy unprecedented poor health and will likely be the first in generations to experience a decline in life span. Television combining with fast food was a marriage of subliminal brainwashing and the obesity industry. The Nazis were never as prolific with their propagandizing techniques.

ETA: As an experiment, turn on the tele some time today, and observe how many channels are actually broadcasting the scheduled program at that particular moment. It's all chewing gum for the eyes.

[ 08 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
deadduck
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posted 08 June 2006 11:01 AM      Profile for deadduck     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Infocus:
Indeed they should be freeto listen to whatever they wish - whether government pronouncements or advertising for products. However, as we all know, we mere mortals cannot be trusted and thus, must be given only what is gov't approved.

Give us more 'Heritage Minutes'!


I doubt we can compare the desire for people to be allowed a voice in a free (not corporate or empire dominated) press to the rights of corpate media the right to advertize 'at' us. Nor should we (directly) compare governemnt CBC Heratige minutes to Governemnt media under despotic regimes....


From: far east | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 June 2006 11:06 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Infocus: ... as we all know, we mere mortals cannot be trusted and thus, must be given only what is gov't approved.

Yea, government approval of safety in children's toys really sucks too. And government approval of helmets, government approval of food and water quality, government approval of so many things just gets in the way of freedom. Gosh, government approval just blows.

I wish our own government did more to protect Canadians from the repulsive consumer culture, most of which splashes over from the USA. It leaves a sticky scum on my consciousness that can't be scraped off with the best advertised products of Brands X, Y and Z.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 08 June 2006 11:21 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yea, you know the corporate agenda is omnipresent when we hear kids singing the words to commercials and throwing tantrums in department stores over the price of a corporate-sponsored flagship product that their parents can't afford. Big business knows the power of visual and auditory propagandizing of a child's mind from very early on in their lives, from Barney dolls to the brand of diapers they will wear in old age. It's cradle to the grave capitalism.

Is it any wonder our corrupt politicos don't want national daycare?. Somebody's kids have to grow up in front of the boob tube.

[ 08 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 June 2006 11:40 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Advertising aimed at children, other than that which is in the interest of a shared public good, really should just be banned. The consequences of cigarette advertising aimed at children is well know. But that's not all that is harmful.

Children haven't gone through the physiological nor psychic/emotional/intellectual development necessary for them to make intelligent decisions about products that are typically marketed to them with the aggression of a military campaign. Advertising affects adults; it overwhelms children. Anything not in the best interest of children just seems immoral to me when children are so vulnerable to such consumer propaganda.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 08 June 2006 11:58 AM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
you hoooooo, let's get back to the actual content of this thread. Or are those who are so keenly interested n misdirecting the discussion simply blinded by their prejudices towards the Cuban government?
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 08 June 2006 12:18 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're absolutely right, Otter. Sometimes we get so carried away discussing the depth of corruption and level of incompetence in our own autocratic governments that focus on the topic at hand is lost. At least Ottawa and Washington trot in some fresh faces every four or five years for cosmetic appearance sake. (gavel banging for order in the court)

[ 08 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 08 June 2006 12:45 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Personally i find the Cuban democratic process to be far superior to Canada's in a multitude of ways. For example:

Their single party system means much more stability and consistency in policies and legislative direction. While our multi party system ensures that, as soon as "the other guys" get in, programs and policies while be changed and even gutted to reflect the current ideology and agendas of the 'new' party. A system that invariably means one step forward and two steps backward in regime changes.

Their electoral system also allows anyone with an interest in politics to run for office while our own ensures that only those who get a wink and a nod from the various party constituency offices or simly the party leader will be running for office.

I hope that even the detractors will notice that there is no homelessness, no one goes hungry and EVERYONE gets access to a user-fee FREE health care system that will always stand as the best example of socialized health care in the world.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 June 2006 03:31 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for those links in the opening post, Nikolai!

More useful links:

Cuban Democracy thread.

The Cuban Electoral System

Granma International Online News

U.S. Terrorism in the Americas

Walter Lipmann's website, and particularly his Links Page

El Escambray English-language newspaper

The Nova Scotia-Cuba Association

Cuba Education Tours

Cuba Solidarity Campaign (UK)

Blackpool and Flyde Cuba Solidarity Campaign (UK)

National Committee to Free the Cuban Five (today is the fifth anniversary of their wrongful conviction).

Dan Christensen's Cuba website

Cuba Socialista

CubaSolidarity.com

ZNet articles on Cuba

GreenLeft.org articles on Cuba

Global Policy Forum articles on Cuba

Counterpunch articles on Cuba

The Guardian articles on Cuba

Castro Speech Database

Cuban Government Documents archive

Cuba as Alternative

Progressive Cuba-bashing

The Responsibility of Intellectuals: Cuba, the US and Human Rights

Philip Agee: Terrorism and Civil Society as Instruments of US Policy in Cuba

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Infocus
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posted 08 June 2006 06:57 PM      Profile for Infocus        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I]Their single party system means much more stability and consistency in policies and legislative direction.[/I]

"other than that which is in the interest of a shared public good, really should just be banned."

Now I understand. Lets just do away with elections, free speech, power of individual choice and all other democratic institutions, because a benevolent dictator will act in ALL our best interests.

I feel so much better now.


From: Nanaimo, B.C. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Infocus
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posted 08 June 2006 07:02 PM      Profile for Infocus        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Their single party system means much more stability and consistency in policies and legislative direction.

I trust you'd feel the same way if that 'single party' was a Conservative or Republican oriented party? Or does it only apply to communists?

I hope that even the detractors will notice that there is no homelessness

There is also no middle class - at least by N. American standards. How about you? Are you comfortable living at a subsistance standard, like most Cubans? Or is it a case of admiring them from afar? Just curious.


From: Nanaimo, B.C. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 08 June 2006 08:28 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks MS for the great links. I find this one particularily appropriate for many on babble:

Progressive Cuba Bashing

What a great article!


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 08 June 2006 08:49 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Infocus:

I trust you'd feel the same way if that 'single party' was a Conservative or Republican oriented party? Or does it only apply to communists?


Been there done that. Reagan enjoyed two terms and cut taxes for the wealthiest, almost as breathtaking as what this illegitimate Republican government is doing today. Successive Republican governments have ratcheted U.S. national debt to stellar proportions.

Brian Mulroney left us saddled with with the second or third largest national debt in the history of the world amid one of the worst economic recessions in Canada since the 1930's. The Lyin' one didn't even say g'bye.

And Maggie? Well, Maggie pauperized a nation, too, with Milton Friedman advising her and the Bank of England.

And Chile was on a roll of its own with Republican-backed conservative government from 1973 to 1989. hushhhhh

[ 08 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 11 June 2006 05:46 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ian Gibson, British labour MP:
quote:
Cuba is the only country in Latin America that does not receive assistance from international financial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, which are supposed to contribute to the development of third world countries. It is also the only nation on the continent with whom the EU has not signed a cooperation agreement. Yet social advances continue, underpinned by moderate but consistent economic growth.

The UN recently announced that Cuba is the only country in Latin America that has no malnutrition. The World Health Organisation reports that the Cuban doctor-patient ratio is 1:170, better than the US average of 1:188. In addition, WHO has commended Cuba for outstanding literacy levels and rates of infant mortality and life expectancy that outstrip Washington DC - despite 45 years of an illegal economic blockade imposed by successive US administrations. Cuba's international activities also deserve recognition. It is operating humanitarian missions in 68 countries and, in 2005 alone, 1,800 doctors from 47 developing countries graduated in Cuba under a free scholarship scheme.

Yet western governments - including our own - offer little acknowledgement of these achievements. The Foreign Office explains it "cannot have normal relations with Cuba" due to human-rights concerns. Amnesty International claims that 72 prisoners of conscience are detained in Cuban jails, an allegation rejected by the Cuban government, which argues that all were tried and found guilty of being in the pay of an enemy power - the US. The International Red Cross has meanwhile reported that up to 40,000 people are detained by coalition forces in Iraq without charge.



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 09:47 AM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"cannot have normal relations with Cuba" due to human-rights concerns. "

- of course none of these nations seem to have any problem having normal relations with China or Saudi Arabia.

OK, I accept that Cuba has a form of democracy, although different from our own - but where does Castro fit into the democarcy? Is his name actually on the ballot? Could the Cuban people throw him out of office?

How exactly would someone go about giving the people of Cuba the choice to have free press, or the right to leave the island?

I understand that Cuba has been forced into this position, but I am just curious as to the shortcomings of the Cuban democratic system.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 10:19 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pearson:
I understand that Cuba has been forced into this position, but I am just curious as to the shortcomings of the Cuban democratic system.

And so you must be equally as interested to understand why multi-party democracies in the rest of Latin America have come up so short of the mark with the help of the world banking system and Washington consensus?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 June 2006 10:31 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Pearson: ...I am just curious ...

If that's the case, then check out some of the links that M.Spector and I have provided in this thread. The effort involved should satisfy your curiousity.

Here's another link that is useful for understanding why Cubans "flee" the island.

Why Cubans "flee" the island.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 10:31 AM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

And so you must be equally as interested to understand why multi-party democracies in the rest of Latin America have come up so short of the mark with the help of the world banking system and Washington consensus?.

Not particularly. I'm well aware of the flaws in those nations - and the way in which America champions democracy because it knows that it can manipulate the elections.

There are many elements of the Cuban style democracy which I think would be good for other nations to adopt - such as the lack of power given to parties, and the fact that Cuban politicians do not need a single dollar to run in the election. I am not looking to the flawed systems of other LA nations to learn from.

However, that does not mean that the Cuban system is without flaws, as most democratic systems are - particularly those in North America.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Pearson ]


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 10:35 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Ian Gibson, British labour MP:

An interview with former World Bank Chief, Joe Stiglitz

quote:
Your former boss at the World Bank, James Wolfensohn, praised Cuba a little while ago for its success in social indicators. Do you share his evaluation, and what do you think is behind that?

Stiglitz: I think Cuba has done a great deal for education and health, and what it has shown is that it is possible, even in a very poor country, to have a pro-poor growth strategy that improves health and education. And the failure to do that is simply because there has not been enough emphasis on these very important social dimensions of economic policy.

But the fact that Cuba has nothing to do with the IMF, and is not under the influence of international capital markets - is that one of the reasons they're able to do these things?

Stiglitz: Well, I think that there are other countries that have taken other policies that have shown other ways of becoming independent. For instance, China has also emphasized education a great deal, and has not had an IMF program, and has had the fastest record of economic growth, and

And isolated from world capital markets

Stiglitz: Well, that's a very interesting example, because they have not opened themselves to the short-term capital flows, the speculative capital flows that have brought with it instability. But they have invited foreign direct investment in, the kind of investment that leads to job creation and long-term economic growth. So that is an example of taking advantage of globalization, but on their own terms. And it's the countries that have followed willy-nilly the advice of the IMF that have wound up suffering.


[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 10:42 AM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
N Beltov

I am not questioning why Cuba does not allow people to leave nor why they do not have free press.

The question that I have relates not so much to whether these specific policies are just or unjust, but rather relates to the political processes to have these policies changed.

I am sure that if I spent several hours dredging through the links that you have provided, the answer would be in there, but since you are such an authority on Cuban politics, I am sure that you could provide me the answer much easier.

So, again I will ask:

"How exactly would someone (a politician) go about giving the people of Cuba the choice to have free press, or the right to leave the island?"


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 10:53 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a factoid for you, Pearson. There are a greater percentage of Cuban's coming and going from the island for destinations across the globe than any other Latin American country. Cuba's foreign aid programs are unparalleled in Latin America.

There are more Canadians and Americans who can't afford a Greyhound bus ticket to the next province or state than there are Cubans. And never mind the freedom to afford travel to another country.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 June 2006 10:53 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Pearson: The question that I have relates not so much to whether these specific policies are just or unjust, but rather relates to the political processes to have these policies changed.

Gobbledygook. Keep moving those goalposts.

quote:
am sure that if I spent several hours dredging through the links that you have provided, the answer would be in there, but since you are such an authority on Cuban politics, I am sure that you could provide me the answer much easier.

Doing your own homework isn't really all that difficult. The link on why Cubans "flee" the island is an excellent history of the US warfare against Cuba on immigration and goes a long way towards explaining the facts.

quote:
How exactly would someone go about giving the people of Cuba the choice to have free press, or the right to leave the island?

Normalized relations between Cuba and the USA would require a regime change in the USA. Once the unending US economic, political, ideological, informational and psychological warfare came to an end, I would expect that the rate of immigration to the USA from Cuba would reach a decent equilibrium. The USA doesn't want normal relations with Cuba. Hence, for example, virtually all emigration is illegal and that suits the USA just fine in its propaganda war against Cuba. Up until 1959, emigration from Cuba was just as difficult as it is today from, say, Haiti. Nowadays, the USA allows terrorists to kill people, take over vessels and hijack them to the USA, and such people are rewarded with instant US citizenship. There is no law like it anywhere else in the world. Just do your homework. I promise it won't hurt your brain ... too much.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 11:03 AM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Here's a factoid for you, Pearson. There are a greater percentage of Cuban's coming and going from the island for destinations across the globe than any other Latin American country. Cuba's foreign aid programs are unparalleled in Latin America.

Again, at no time have I actually questioned the policy. I do not know how many times I must state that before you stop defending Cuba's policy on this. I used it merely as an example.

Now them, I ask again - how would a politician go about changing policy on something as large as this?

Does Cuba's democratic process provide the potential to make such change?


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 June 2006 11:10 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why would you want to change good policies? Are you looking for an outline of how to reject good social policy in Cuba? The US State Department has over 45 years of practice doing that.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 11:10 AM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Gobbledygook. Keep moving those goalposts.

quote:

Doing your own homework isn't really all that difficult. The link on why Cubans "flee" the island is an excellent history of the US warfare against Cuba on immigration and goes a long way towards explaining the facts.

I have asked a very specific question which it appears you have no intention of answering - unless 'go look at these 20 links and the answer might be there' is interpreted as an answer. The next time you decide that you aren't going to answer a question, just state that and save us the time.

I am well aware of the US warfare against Cuba - the Miami five, the United Fruit Company etc etc - and I support Cuba fully in its conflict with the US. However, none of this changes my question regarding the democratic system in Cuba which you aren't going to answer.

quote:How exactly would someone go about giving the people of Cuba the choice to have free press, or the right to leave the island?

quote:

Normalized relations between Cuba and the USA would require a regime change in the USA.

Normalized relations with the USA, has nothing to do with my question. It appears that you have stored up a rant to use against anyone you deem to be anti-Cuba but sadly I am not anti-Cuba, I am simply someone trying to understand their democratic process which it appears none of us fully understand.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 12 June 2006 11:10 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yea, that's right. There's a Parliament in Cuba. I know that the "Cuba is a dictatorship" crowd don't like that sort of talk.

Yes, because the existence of a parliament must mean that a country is democratic. I suppose that's why Stalin's parliament voted him the greatest democratic leader on the planet.

I suppose to simple minded dimwits who fall for the cult of personality of Castro, the existance of a parliament is something to crow about, but for people who actually don't lose all reasoning at the sight of Fearless Leader, here are some facts to consider:

1.The Cuban Parliament meets for a two week period once a year and merely exists to rubber stamp the decisions of the Cuban Communist Party.

2.It is comprised of 619 members each of whom belong to the Communist Party and none of whom faced any challengers in their 'races'.

Nice democracy. If you like it so much, I suggest you move there.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Adam T ]


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 11:16 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pearson:
Does Cuba's democratic process provide the potential to make such change?

I'm not aware of any such laws in Cuba. Cuban's can apply for a permit to travel. But like anywhere in the world, Pearson, it costs money to travel. So what you should be asking is, why would someone want to leave an island, not just Cuba?. It's human nature to want to explore the world. Human curiosity transcends geopolitics. Unemployed Newfoundlanders want to leave that island, too. And thank goodness it's not far from the mainland.

Cuban's come and go all the time. In fact, it's easier to get a permit if you are an uskilled labourer in Cuba. The problem is very similar for millions of people around the world who cannot afford to travel, Pearson. There is no law stating you can't leave Cuba. Castro actually helped Santos Trafficante and mob friends to leave the island for Miami in the 1960's. But you have to go through channels like any other country. Cubana airlines ferry people to and from the island all the time. One Cubana airliner was bombed by a U.S.-trained terrorist in 1976 and killing 73 passengers.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 11:23 AM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, you think that Cubans make those makeshift rafts because that is the only way that they can afford to leave the island?

Well, let me tell you the real reason that the policy is in place - terrorism is only a tiny part of the reason.

In a socialist/communist nation - education is subsidized. Therefore, a medical education in the US might cost 1,000,000 or more dollars - whereas in Cuba - that education is paid for by the government.

Now, if the government pays for some of its people to become doctors, engineers etc - and then they just leave the island to go to a place where there is a far less just distribution of wealth - then Cuba will be left with no trained professionals. Doctors and engineers do not want to work for 100/month - which is what many of them get paid.

Now in order to rectify this situation - we need to set up international law to compensate 3rd world nations when the wealthy nations poach proffessionals for which there is a shortage.

If the US paid Cuba even $10,000 when it stole a doctor or an engineer - then Cuba would be able to re-invest that money to educate even more professionals - but since the US is intent on destroying Cuba's economy so their model does not spread - the US will never agree to such terms.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 June 2006 11:25 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Adam T: 2.It is comprised of 619 members each of whom belong to the Communist Party and none of whom faced any challengers in their 'races'.

Everything written by you here is a lie.

The National Assembly has 609 members.

This is the first lie.

The Communist Party, which is 15% of the population, does not nominate candidates or administer the government. Further,

quote:
The Candidacy Commissions spend a year selecting a slate of candidates for these two Assemblies. This slate must be approved by the Municipal Assemblies. The Communist Party is prohibited from participating in the work of the Candidacy Commission. Next, neighborhood meetings are held in which all biographies are read. Also the candidates as a group hold meetings in work places and other public venues in their Province. All are on an equal footing, as they do not have “campaign expenses”. Nation-wide secret direct elections are held and monitored by youth.

The second lie. Shall I go on?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 June 2006 11:34 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I see. The ABSOLUTE "right to leave the island" supersedes Cuban rights to pass laws regarding legal requirements of emigration. The fact that the US has been beaming thousands of hours of unrelenting propaganda, the purpose of which is to create and increase illegal emigration is irrelevant. The fact that the US has specific and unique laws, unknown elsewhere on planet earth, to make emigration to the USA from Cuba automatic is irrelevant. So too, it is irrelevant how many billions of dollars are spent on this effort. It is irrelevant that other Carribean countries have no such "arrangements".

Curious, my ass. Why would you do any homework when your hostility requires no facts whatsoever?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 11:35 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pearson:

If the US paid Cuba even $10,000 when it stole a doctor or an engineer - then Cuba would be able to re-invest that money to educate even more professionals - but since the US is intent on destroying Cuba's economy so their model does not spread - the US will never agree to such terms.



On the contrary, the American's are being subsidized with Cuban medical training as it stands now and with Fidel's assistance.Castro is offering Hispanic and African-Americans who cannot access the handful of mainly white medical colleges in the U.S.A. six years of free medical training in Cuba. The Cuban's insist that the poor American students return to the U.S. and practice in under-serviced and no-service poorer regions of the USA. And there are shortages of access to basic health care across America. And now Canada is experiencing annual doctor shortages of 500 plus across the country with our two old line parties having increased university tuition fees by over 130 percent in Canada at higher rates than inflation since 1991.

Cuba is proving to the world that commodifying education and health care is more expensive than fully socialized medicine. And the results are noticable with Cuba owning lower infant mortality rates than in the U.S.A with its most privatized and most expensive health care system in the world.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 11:54 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pearson, Washington has described Haiti as the freest trading nation in the Carribe. Haitian's can't build enough rafts to get off that island because big sugar companies have clear cut all the trees from their end of the island. Passing over Haiti in a plane, you see nothing but grasslands and withered land after decades of rape and pillage of the island by rich people and big sugar companies.

And whenever Haitian's do make it to Florida or the Keys, they are promptly returned home by the U.S. Coast Guard. What's up with that ?. I thought big business in the states appreciates cheap labour immigration to that country in suppressing domestic wages and unions?. Cuban's welcome poor Haitian's suffering malnutrition, AIDS and fleeing from political oppression.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 12 June 2006 12:02 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And aid agencies that have tried to replant the devastated forests have been appalled to learn the landbarons there send their thugs in the dark of night to tear up all the plantings. Why? so that they can maintain control of the only wood products available on the island, most of which is turned into charcoal for cooking.
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 12:05 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Why would you want to change good policies? Are you looking for an outline of how to reject good social policy in Cuba? The US State Department has over 45 years of practice doing that.

I wouldn't. But I would like to have a dialogue on it. And if THE PEOPLE decide it is a bad policy, then I would like to have a way of changing it.

For example:
Harper believes that having troops in Afghanistan is good, and therefore no dialogue needs to take place. I disagree. I don't think it is up to Harper to determine whether or not we can have a dialogue about such a thing. I think it should be up to Parliament do decide that.

Neither you, nor I, nor Castro should be able to single-handedly determine which policies are good or bad - the people of Cuba should decide.

And they may very well vote to keep such policies in place, but they should be given the opportunity to do so.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 12:10 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
Nice democracy. If you like it so much, I suggest you move there.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Adam T ]


Nope, you go. Because it was CCF'ers, socialists, unions and social rights activists who have fought so hard pushing and shoving our two old line parties for socialized medicine, old aged pensions and all of what makes life in Canada, and the states still worth living for.

But I think that if you are fed up with socialized medicine and the few human rights that exist here because of Tommy Douglas, the CCF, NDP and leftist foot soldiers since turn of the last century, then you, Adam, should pack up and move to any of those right-to-work states where you will be paid what some expensive suits tell you you're worth. Don't get sick though, because chances are you'll be under-insured and have to pay out of pocket. And then we'll see your scrawny tail back over the line to Canada and to where the basic human right to health care is still respected for the time being.

And if you really want to get away from socialism in Canada, Adam, pick up a travel brochure for El Salvador or Honduras. You'll only be a few days drive from Texas, another right-to-work, pay-as-you-go state.And hand in your provincial health card at the border when you take out U.S. citizenship. See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya. Send us a postcard from West Virginia or whichever red, have-not state it is you'll be moving to. Because I doubt very much he'll choose any of the multi-party democracies in Central America. Never.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 12:11 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Oh, I see. The ABSOLUTE "right to leave the island" supersedes Cuban rights to pass laws regarding legal requirements of emigration. The fact that the US has been beaming thousands of hours of unrelenting propaganda, the purpose of which is to create and increase illegal emigration is irrelevant. The fact that the US has specific and unique laws, unknown elsewhere on planet earth, to make emigration to the USA from Cuba automatic is irrelevant. So too, it is irrelevant how many billions of dollars are spent on this effort. It is irrelevant that other Carribean countries have no such "arrangements".

I am aware that US policies aimed at destroying the economny of Cuba have in many ways forced Cuba into making emmigration much tougher.

I do not believe that leaving Cuba is merely a matter of filling out the right forms. I believe it is quite difficult for the reasons I have stated above.

But that is irrelevant. I have not stated whether I think the Cuban policy is right or wrong, I have merely asked what mechanism exists, such that if the majority of Cubans wanted the right to leave the island, the policy could be changed.

quote:

Curious, my ass. Why would you do any homework when your hostility requires no facts whatsoever?

My hostility? Precisely who am I being hostile to?

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Pearson ]


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 12:17 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At least provide us with a web link to your hearsay and dated American cold war rhetoric on Cuba, Pearson. It's not that we haven't heard this shinola before about Cuba and Castro. It's all very American in nature and spirit, and we can expose ourselves to the same Cuba-bashing propaganda 24/7/365 with American right wing radio broadcasts. Every station has an American version of Tokyo Rose.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 12:43 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pearson:

I am aware that US policies aimed at destroying the economny of Cuba have in many ways forced Cuba into making emmigration much tougher.

I do not believe that leaving Cuba is merely a matter of filling out the right forms. I believe it is quite difficult for the reasons I have stated above.


But you're full of steaming brown cow patty, because even the CIA has acknowledged Cuba's economy expanded 5.2 percent last year. That growth rate was higher than our North American economies experienced.

quote:
But that is irrelevant. I have not stated whether I think the Cuban policy is right or wrong, I have merely asked what mechanism exists, such that if the majority of Cubans wanted the right to leave the island, the policy could be changed.
[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Pearson ]

But now you're just a troll who provides us with no web links or even dated American cold war sources for us on Cuba, Pearson.

As a Canadian citizen, you own the personal right and freedom to travel to Cuba. Go to Cuba yourself, and discover that Cuban's travel to and from the island all the time. If you don't believe me, and you don't have any dated American cold war sources to backup your claim, then go to Cuba and find out for yourself, Pearson. Because you're a broken record already from trollsville. How does it feel to be making nonsensical irrelevant comments on Cuba, Pearson ?.

Pearson, you should try convincing dum and mad to steer clear of Orlando, FLA next year, and talk'em into heading across the Rio Grande and down to El Salvador, Chiapas and Guatemala. Send us some post cards, and don't flash any more than a few pesos at a time.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
rici
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posted 12 June 2006 12:50 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pearson:

According to the Cuban constitution, Article 88, citizens have the right to propose a law provided that the petition comes from at least 10,000 citizens with the right to vote. I cannot find any specific constitutional provision which deals with what happens after such a petition is made; I presume that it would go to the parliament ("the National Assembly of Popular Power") for approval, modification or rejection.

The constitution already guarantees freedom of press, more or less, in Article 53:

quote:

ARTICULO 53. Se reconoce a los ciudadanos libertad de palabra y prensa conforme a los fines de la sociedad socialista. Las condiciones materiales para su ejercicio están dadas por el hecho de que la prensa, la radio, la televisión, el cine y otros medios de difusión masiva son de propiedad estatal o social y no pueden ser objeto, en ningún caso, de propiedad privada, lo que asegura su uso al servicio exclusivo del pueblo trabajador y del interés de la sociedad.
La ley regula el ejercicio de estas libertades.

quote:
My translation (I'm not a lawyer ):
"The citizens' liberty of speech and of the press is recognized in conformity with the goals of the socialist society. The material conditions for the exercise of this liberty are given by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema and other mass media are state or social property and in no case may be private property, which assures their exclusive use at the service of the working population and the interests of society. The law regulates the exercise of these liberties."

As far as I can see, the Constitution does not guarantee the right to travel. (I can't remember seeing that right in any list of constitutional rights anywhere, but I haven't made a detailed study.) If Cubans wanted to enshrine such a right, they could only do so -- presumably -- through a constitutional amendment, which can only be achieved by a two-thirds majority vote of the Parliament.

However, it would not actually require a constitutional amendment; simply a change to the law of migration (law 1312) (I think -- I'm just going by a page of laws helpfully provided by the Cuban National Assembly.)

That law says that in order to leave (or enter) Cuba, a citizen must have a Passport, of which there are five kinds: Diplomatic, Service, Official, Marine and Common. The holder of a common passport also requires an Exit Permit (or Entry Permit, if they are entering), which is granted by the Interior Ministry. The Interior Ministry is also responsible for issuing common passports.

It seems to me that, if Cubans wished to simplify the process, they could do so through a modification to this law, for example by removing the requirement for Entry and Exit Permits. That would require an initiative (of at least 10,000 citizens) and then the initiative would have to be approved.

So that's my best reading of the processes involved.

Hope that helps.


From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 12:53 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel,

For the record, I have been to Cuba, enjoyed myself immensely, and fully support the Cuban revolution and its people - particularly over the US government.

I have no idea what it is that you think you are refuting by stating that the Cuban economy grew 5.2% last year. But you appear to think that it demonstrates my dishonesty - for reasons which only you and a select few are able to deduce.

However, none of that changes the fact that I have questions about its democratic system.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I support the US against Cuba, or why I would use cold-war rhetoric.

In fact, I actually agree with you on most things when it comes to Cuba, but apparently the fact that I don't agree with you as to the perfectness of Cuban democracy makes me a pro-American troll.

I won't waste any more time engaging in conversation with you on this subject, as it appears that you are too emotionally attached to it, to make any sense.

Feel free to call me a coward and claim victory if you feel that will give you a sense of closure.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Pearson ]


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 12 June 2006 01:00 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rici,

Thank you for answering my original question.

It is interesting to know that there is indeed a process for Cubans to make fundamental changes to their government.

In your translation regarding free press, I would say that the particular article does not guarantee free press - but rather guarantees that the press is not owned or run by private individuals - which would suggest that it is not free.

This, however, as you have shown, could be changed if Cubans went through the process of changing it.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 12 June 2006 01:14 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Generally, the rights in the Cuban Constitution have no enforcement mechanism, and so are just marks on paper, similar to the Soviet Constitution and that of other bygone dreamlands.

As for the Cuban state having no right to move within or outside of Cuba, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights provides:

quote:

1. Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.

2. Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.


While the Covenant provides for truncation of this right for reasons of national security, etc, the starting point in international law is that everyone has this right.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 01:17 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pearson:
Fidel,

For the record, I have been to Cuba, enjoyed myself immensely, and fully support the Cuban revolution and its people - particularly over the US government.

I have no idea what it is that you think you are refuting by stating that the Cuban economy grew 5.2% last year. But you appear to think that it demonstrates my dishonesty - for reasons which only you and a select few are able to deduce.


Because you were keen to zero-in on the same lame argument that all trolls invariably end up making against Castro and Cuba. And we pointed out to you that Cuban's, like Haitian's, sometimes can't afford to travel. I know it sounds overly simplistic to you, that someone somewhere in the world can't afford to travel by Greyhound bus to the next state or province, let alone another country. But it's true. Have a good look around the next time you're out and about in the world. Ralph Klein once handed Greyhound bus tickets to poor Calgarian's to travel to B.C. because the number of people living on the streets in that city was becoming an embarrassment in Wild Rose County.

We in North America abide by an unwritten law entitled the, "You are free as long as you pay" Act. It's enforced quite strictly here. Cuban physicians and aid workers travel around the world all the time though. Those Cubans are better traveled than the majority of Canadians and Americans.

Pearson, there IS a law in America that says American's can't travel to Cuba and spend above a certain amount of money on the island. American's can be fined $7500 bucks if caught and dozens of American businesses have been flouting Helms-Burton for a long time now. And yes, there are lots of Canadians in Cuba, yes. We are free to travel to Cuba anytime of the year.

How would American's go about changing a dated cold war era law restricting their personal freedom to travel to Cuba, Pearson ?. Perhaps they'll have to wait for five time senator and self-proclaimed white racist Jesse Helms to be carted out feet-first from his Shady Pines rest home in the Carolinas.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 June 2006 03:08 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pearson:

There are many elements of the Cuban style democracy which I think would be good for other nations to adopt - such as the lack of power given to parties, and the fact that Cuban politicians do not need a single dollar to run in the election. I am not looking to the flawed systems of other LA nations to learn from.

However, that does not mean that the Cuban system is without flaws, as most democratic systems are - particularly those in North America.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Pearson ]


Good point, Pearson. Perhaps I did overreact.

I think that certain nations can and do exaggerate external threats to the safety and well being of its citizenry for politically expedient reasons. I don't believe Fidel Castro is exaggerating the threat to the revolution if, say, multi-party elections are introduced to Cuba with associates of the CIA allowed to run as candidates as has happened before in Central American elections.

As N. Beltov mentioned, the best way for international relations to be normalized throughout Latin America and the world is by putting an end of Anglo-American plutocracy. We must create democracy in North America first before demanding that Cuba or any other nation follow our democratic example. Latin America doesn't want or need the kick-back and graft we've had to put up with from successive Liberal and Conservative party autocracies in North America. They don't want to be forced into buying wrenches and toilet seats at twelve times the real price like Americans have had to with runaway corporate-spondored militarism in the U.S.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
rici
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posted 12 June 2006 03:50 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
jeff house is of course correct to point out that a constitution is not worth much in the absence of an effective enforcement procedure, although I would argue that it is slightly more than "just marks on paper"; it is at least an aspirational statement. For example, I might feel that certain provisions in the Cuban constitution are worthwhile (for inclusion in the constitution of my country, for example) regardless of whether the Cuban state actually lives up to them or not.

In that spirit, I would disagree with Pearson's statement that the Cuban constitution opposes a free press because it (more or less) prohibits private ownership of the media. (Neither do I believe that it truly guarantees free speech and free press: compare Article 53 with Article 55, which "recognizes, respects and guarantees" the freedom of religion belief or non-belief.)

The crux of the question is what "freedom of the press" truly entails. The dominant view in Canada and the US views freedom of the press as little more than the application of freedom of expression to media owners. On the other hand, the Cuban constitution correctly (in my opinion) views the mass media as a public good, seeking to protect the public's right to receive information free of the bias of private media owners, but fails to provide any substance to the notion of freedom of individual expression. Certainly, there is abundant evidence in the world that private media ownership tends to restrict rather than expand the range of opinions expressed in the media; on the other hand, state ownership itself is not a guarantee either -- although, to be fair, the Cuban constitution also allows "social" ownership, which I interpret to mean ownership by social organizations.

Finally, the provision in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights that people are free to leave any country, including their own, is fine as far as it goes but it is significantly conditioned by not guaranteeing the right of people to enter another country. The thousands of Mexicans who every month attempt to leave their country -- a flood of humanity which swamps the trickle of Cubans -- might reasonably feel that the International Covenant is "just marks on paper" as far as they are concerned.


From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 12 June 2006 04:00 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Perhaps they'll have to wait for five time senator and self-proclaimed white racist Jesse Helms to be carted out feet-first from his Shady Pines rest home in the Carolinas.

Uuummmmm, what a charming thought to end the day with. Much thanks for such a delightful picture of Carolina hospitality


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 12 June 2006 05:17 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Babblers might be interested in knowing that 'Reporters Without Borders' publishes an annual press freedom index. Cuba ranks lowest of any country in the western Hemisphere, and 161 out of 167 countries overall.
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=15333

Here is their most recent report on Cuba:

quote:
Cuba - Annual report 2006

Press freedom worsened in 2005 with a new crackdown on dissidents during the summer that included three journalists, who joined 20 others imprisoned since the wave of arrests in March 2003.

Cuba is still the world’s second biggest prison for journalists. Seven were freed in 2004 and two in 2005, but the past year saw the arrest of Oscar Mario González Pérez, of the independent news agency Grupo de Trabajo Decoro, in Havana on 22 July. He was charged under law 88 on protection of “the Cuban economy and national independence” but was not tried. A few days earlier, Roberto de Jesús Guerra Pérez, who worked for the websites Payolibre and Nueva Prensa Cubana as well as Radio Martí, was jailed for “disturbing the peace.”



http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=17421

From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 12 June 2006 05:28 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Babblers might be interested in knowing that "Reporters Without Borders" is a scam.

They might also be interested in knowing that every Cuban "dissident" poses as either a journalist or a librarian, although practically none of them have any real training or accreditation in either of those professions. And so, when they get convicted, after a fair trial, of accepting money from the US government to foment rebellion in Cuba, they pretend they are journalists or librarians who are being persecuted. This attracts the attention of people like JohnK, who are easily conned by faux civil libertarian arguments into spreading slanders about Cuba and supporting imperialist aggression aimed at overthrowing the popular revolution.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4631

posted 12 June 2006 09:40 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
N Beltov,
Saying 619 members instead of 609 hardly makes me a liar, it just makes me slightly misinformed. I was making my post using my very poor memory, rather than wasting more time looking up more on Cuba to argue with the self deluded Castro Cultist morons.

I notice that the 'lies' I supposedly said that you pointed out went after the form, rather than the substance.

Even on that matter

quote:
The Communist Party is prohibited from participating in the work of the Candidacy Commission

None of that means that Communist Party members are not allowed to be nominated. And, as I said earlier, I would be surprised if all nominated members aren't Communist Party members, as they are/were in virtually all communist dicatorships.

As to the substance, however.

Do you actually deny that the parliament is anything more than a meaningless forum?

Can you in any way argue that:
1.It meets just for two weeks a year
2.It merely rubber stamps decisions made by the Communist Party and especially by Fidel Castro.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4631

posted 12 June 2006 09:57 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel, like Pearson above, I have no interest in having a discussion with you either. It's clear to me you have zero ability to think rationally.

I will leave you by suggesting you immediately move to your socialist paradise to be closer to your Fearless Leader. As I'm sure this website is no doubt blocked in your worker's paradise, everybody on this channel will have the pleasure of your absence.

Either that, or I suggest at a minimum you cancel your internet subscription and instead give the money to a charity that helps the poor you profess to care so much about.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12739

posted 12 June 2006 10:05 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel,

There is a certain parallel between Cuba and the United States in that certain freedoms are lost because we do not live in a perfect world.

In the US, citizens are losing their rights to privacy because the US believes it has the right to know of every conversation and e-mail going on in the country - in order to fight terrorism allegedly.

In Cuba, they have a lack of freedom of the press. But, when you have an enemy intent on misleading the people through concentrated propaganda efforts , and paying your citizens to revolt, and criticize the government - it becomes a necessary evil.

Just as when you have an enemy who aims to rob you of all your most valuable citiznes, and train ex-Cubans into terrorists, limiting who leaves the island becomes a necessary evil.

Interestingly, if you read the de-classified documents on the run-up to the Cuban missile crisis, (which reveal Kennedy to be as big a POS as the rest) - it shows that the US thought of challenging Cuba to hold a free election - but they backed down because they thought Castro would win.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9893

posted 12 June 2006 10:07 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey John, although I agree with M. Spector's analysis about rsf / rwb being a scam. In fact my doubts were raised as soon as I read:

quote:
the other “black holes” for news where the privately-owned media is is non-existent ...

as if having "private media" meant freedom in our system.

I found this hilarious: the US is in 44th place (behind Macedonia and virtually tied with Bolivia). Even the most corporate friendly source
can't deny there is something seriously wrong with yanqui "freedoms".

Worst than Macedonia! Thanks for this gem to use on my "Amerika uber alles" aquaintances!


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9893

posted 12 June 2006 10:14 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Adam T:

quote:
As I'm sure this website is no doubt blocked in your worker's paradise, everybody on this channel will have the pleasure of your absence.

Actually rabble isn't blocked in Cuba, Adam. I read it all the time I'm down there.

Maybe you should get some facts before you post more Miami based propoganda. And to think at one time I thought you were beginning to realise that things aren't always true as reported.

BTW, did anyone notice that our media is more concerned about Alberto hitting Florida and ignoring it's impact on Cuba. Over 25,000 evacuated in western Cuba with no casualties (thankfully).

In fact on the CBC they didn't even show Cuba on the map just it's path into Florida. Guess that's why people like Adam care more about Florida and can parrot the Miami mafia's propoganda without fail.


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4631

posted 12 June 2006 10:34 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
a lonely worker, I'll take your word on the rabble thing. I suppose it's possible that the internet may be unblocked in hotels for westerners and not for Cubans.

Otherwise, I'm surpised, and pleased, to hear that.

Regarding Cuba and the hurricanes. I saw a brief story on CNN.

I would think it's likely that CBC and most news outlets don't report on Cuba because Fidel discourages foreign reporters from entering his country. I highly doubt that there is any media conspiracy to not report on Cuba given that the media has given ample coverage to every other place around the world that has had natural disasters.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12739

posted 12 June 2006 11:00 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
AdamT

I have heard of the reporter that is going on a hunger strike because he can't get access to the Internet.

But the odd thing, is that most hotels have Internet, there are even Internet cafes in Veradaro and Havana - as well as some government offices - all available for a fee - no ID needed.

Also, we stayed at the home of some Cubans in Havana, and they had dial-up - the whole family used it. So, I don't really understand the inconsistency. Perhaps the reporter has been black-listed for taking bribes from the US.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9893

posted 12 June 2006 11:09 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
AdaM T:

quote:
I would think it's likely that CBC and most news outlets don't report on Cuba because Fidel discourages foreign reporters from entering his country. I highly doubt that there is any media conspiracy to not report on Cuba given that the media has given ample coverage to every other place around the world that has had natural disasters.

Again Adam, you're wrong there. Much is reported on hurricanes when they hit Cuba. The government doesn't hide these facts (sorry to burst your bubble). The problem is OUR media won't report anything on Cuba that doesn't have Washington's spin attached. Reporting that "backwards" Cuba survives a hurricane without any casualties doesn't fit into this mold.

Besides who cares they're only Cubans? They're not even worth 1/10 th of an American life?

It seems the only time the media gets interested in Cuba is when they send in their reporters to do a "travel" story about "sewage filled" Havana just AFTER the hurricane hits. Like that LA Times article you posted on another thread.

BTW, are you American? Since every source you quote for your news is based there and some of your ideas about Cuba seem to be from someone who's had no contact with the island at all (like the internet and rabble myth).


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4631

posted 12 June 2006 11:24 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm Canadian. Like I said, my brother and his wife have gone to Cuba twice. I'll ask them what they thought about the place.
From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4631

posted 12 June 2006 11:44 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cuba law tightens internet access
Stephen Gibbs
BBC News, Havana
Saturday, 24 January, 2004,

The new law makes it impossible for many Cubans to access the internet from their homes
The Cuban Government is tightening its control over internet access.
A new law coming into force on Saturday makes it impossible for many Cubans to dial up the internet from their home telephone lines.

http://tinyurl.com/fvok7

So, more lies? This time from the BBC yet. It seems there must be a worldwide conspiracy against the greatest democratic leader of all time: Fearless Leader.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
John K
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3407

posted 13 June 2006 09:14 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Previously posted:
quote:
Babblers might be interested in knowing that "Reporters Without Borders" is a scam.

I'm sure one of Fidel's defenders will be able to dig up an old Babble thread similarly trying to discredit the 'Committee to Protect Journalists' which has this to say about Cuba's record on press freedom:

quote:
Cuba remains one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists, second only to China, with 24 independent reporters behind bars. Those who try to work as independent reporters are harassed, detained, threatened with prosecution or jail, or barred from traveling. A small number of foreign correspondents report from Havana but Cubans do not see their reports. Officials grant visas to foreign journalists selectively, often excluding those from outlets deemed unfriendly.


http://www.cpj.org/censored/censored_06.html

From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 13 June 2006 09:29 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ya in North America, we have newspaper magnates telling it their way. And Conrad Black's newspapers were so short of reporters that they depended on Reuters for Canadian news.

quote:
With 2 million inmates, the U.S. already has the largest gulag population in the world. China, which the AFL-CIO consistently condemns as anti-worker and totalitarian, has a half-million fewer prisoners. With only 5 percent of the world's population the United States has a quarter of the world's 8 million prisoners.

And with over 600 prisoners, Guantanamo Bay is the largest gulag population on the island of Cuba. United States exporting 'tools of torture'

[ 13 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
EmmaG
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12605

posted 13 June 2006 01:42 PM      Profile for EmmaG        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And what exactly is your point Fidel? Conrad Black's crappy media outlets did not prohibit rabble, This magazine or any independant blogger or reporter from saying whatever the hell they want (outside of libel laws).

Guantanamo Bay's torture does not in the least excuse the fact that Cuba locks up dissenting reporters. This has been well documented by many organizations and news services.

Whenever posters such as Adam T present you with ugly facts about Cuba, you bring up the US or certain Canadian media barons. Why not stay on topic?

You may disagree with Canwest's statements and reporting methods, but I'm glad they're free to do so. I'm also glad rabble is free, as our This magazine or Canadian Dimension, etc, etc...

I'm sure Cuban reporters who are behind bars are a little less idealistic than you about their dictator's paradise.


From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 13 June 2006 04:24 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
I would think it's likely that CBC and most news outlets don't report on Cuba because Fidel discourages foreign reporters from entering his country.
Speculation is no substitute for the facts, which are readily available.

For example, here's a 2003 press conference in Cuba, attended by 59 media from 22 countries.

quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
A new law coming into force on Saturday makes it impossible for many Cubans to dial up the internet from their home telephone lines.
"Impossible" in the sense that they must pay for the privilege with dollars. Not "impossible" in the sense of illegal.

If you read the whole article, it is clearly just another example of the necessity of rationing scarce resources.

quote:
Originally posted by John K:
I'm sure one of Fidel's defenders will be able to dig up an old Babble thread similarly trying to discredit the 'Committee to Protect Journalists' which has this to say about Cuba's record on press freedom:
No old babble threads on this one. But yes, that so-called committee is a scam as well.

But please, don't bother posting any more links to propaganda websites that pretend that these counter-revolutionary plotters and saboteurs are "journalists". There are plenty of those sites out there on the web. There are also plenty that tell the truth about Cuba. Why, I wonder, is your skepticism reserved only for the latter?

quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
I'm Canadian. Like I said, my brother and his wife have gone to Cuba twice. I'll ask them what they thought about the place.
You've never asked them? And you claim to be well-informed on the subject of Cuba?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
John K
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3407

posted 14 June 2006 12:21 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Posted by M. Spector:
quote:
This attracts the attention of people like JohnK, who are easily conned by faux civil libertarian arguments into spreading slanders about Cuba and supporting imperialist aggression aimed at overthrowing the popular revolution.

If anything, those of us on the democratic political left have tended to be overly silent on the human rights situation in Cuba. It's not a lot of fun to have false accusations such as the one above hurled at you by fellow leftists, or to have your position misrepresented, distorted or misunderstood.

Despite Cuba's accomplishments in areas like health care and education, this does not justify or excuse a human rights record that by any international standard is deplorable. I don't believe that Cubans (or Haitians or Guatemalans for that matter) are any less entitled to the same basic civil liberties as Canadians are.

If the Cuban government deserves commendation for its progressive social policy, it equally deserves censure for its failure to respect international human rights norms including putting the "popularity" of its revolution to the test in a free, fair and democratic election.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: John K ]


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 14 June 2006 12:46 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EmmaG:
Guantanamo Bay's torture does not in the least excuse the fact that Cuba locks up dissenting reporters. This has been well documented by many organizations and news services.

Guantanamo Bay's torture gulags are illegal and a direct affront to Cuba's sovereignty. The number of Americans locked up in private and publicly-funded gulags, on probation and on parole represents over two-thirds of Cuba's population. If the US conservatives have the right to create the largest bureaucracy in world history in response to CIA blowback self-induced terrorism, then surely any nation has the responibility to pull up the drawbridge and protect its citizens from other aggressive nations. Cuban's have been on a state of alert since 1959 with U.S. acts of terrorism committed against their island nation. You people want pluralist "democracy" in Cuba. That won't happen as long as they are threatened by the CIA and U.S. military and being imposed upon in their own country, illegally I might add.

quote:
Whenever posters such as Adam T present you with ugly facts about Cuba, you bring up the US or certain Canadian media barons. Why not stay on topic?

One cannot discuss Cuba without discussing the dated cold war policies of the U.S. still menacing them after all these years. Suggesting that Cuba needs to open itself up to U.S. imperialism is like suggesting that they need to put up a no smoking sign in a fireworks factory employing children in India. Firstly, the damned factory owners should be shot and pissed on right off the bat. I'm not sure how that relates to this discussion, but it felt good typing it as I've exhausted all logic on you people concerning Cuba.

You people might make more sense if there weren't so many third world, multi-party democratic shitholes and trading freely with Uncle Sam so close to Texas and Florida as it is now. Decent examples in the Carribe and Central America for Cuban's to follow are few and far between. Perhaps if Haiti wasn't such a basket case with CIA meddling, you people might have a clear case for pluralistic rule in Cuba and a return of organized crime in Havana. But you don't and are sounding sillier and sillier and more obsessed with Castro's Cuba with every weak argument and hasty post.

It's all very emotional, but it doesn't make sense to me or Cuban's who don't want to see a return to 12 hour days of back-breaking labour under tropical sun in the cane fields while their children sell themselves to wealthy foreigners and criminals and die of TB, drug overdose and secret police beatings the way it was in Batistas Cuba with U.S. backing.

quote:
You may disagree with Canwest's statements and reporting methods, but I'm glad they're free to do so. I'm also glad rabble is free, as our This magazine or Canadian Dimension, etc, etc...

I'm sure Cuban reporters who are behind bars are a little less idealistic than you about their dictator's paradise.


And I'm glad that Cuba has strong leadership and are able to counteract CIA meddling in Havana. Haitian's have suffered at the hands of some of the most brutal U.S.-backed right-wing dictators for decades just 50 miles from Cuba.

The U.S. owns the largest gulag population in the world. The U.S. is the biggest threat to human rights on the island of Cuba, no doubt about it.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 14 June 2006 06:58 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by John K:
It's not a lot of fun to have false accusations such as the one above hurled at you by fellow leftists, or to have your position misrepresented, distorted or misunderstood.
Now you know how the Cubans feel.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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