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Author Topic: Are the USA and Canada on the road to fascism?
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 08 October 2006 12:18 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11155.htm

Fascism then. Fascism now?

When people think of fascism, they imagine Rows of goose-stepping storm troopers and puffy-chested dictators. What they don't see is the economic and political process that leads to the nightmare.

By Paul Bigioni

11/27/05 "Toronto Star" -- -- Observing political and economic discourse in North America since the 1970s leads to an inescapable conclusion: The vast bulk of legislative activity favours the interests of large commercial enterprises. Big business is very well off, and successive Canadian and U.S. governments, of whatever political stripe, have made this their primary objective for at least the past 25 years.

Digging deeper into 20th century history, one finds the exaltation of big business at the expense of the citizen was a central characteristic of government policy in Germany and Italy in the years before those countries were chewed to bits and spat out by fascism. Fascist dictatorships were borne to power in each of these countries by big business, and they served the interests of big business with remarkable ferocity.

These facts have been lost to the popular consciousness in North America. Fascism could therefore return to us, and we will not even recognize it. Indeed, Huey Long, one of America's most brilliant and most corrupt politicians, was once asked if America would ever see fascism. "Yes," he replied, "but we will call it anti-fascism."

By exploring the disturbing parallels between our own time and the era of overt fascism, we can avoid the same hideous mistakes. At present, we live in a constitutional democracy. The tools necessary to protect us from fascism remain in the hands of the citizen. All the same, North America is on a fascist trajectory. We must recognize this threat for what it is, and we must change course.

Consider the words of Thurman Arnold, head of the Antitrust Division of the U.S. Department of Justice in 1939:

"Germany, of course, has developed within 15 years from an industrial autocracy into a dictatorship. Most people are under the impression that the power of Hitler was the result of his demagogic blandishments and appeals to the mob... Actually, Hitler holds his power through the final and inevitable development of the uncontrolled tendency to combine in restraint of trade."

Arnold made his point even more clearly in a 1939 address to the American Bar Association:

"Germany presents the logical end of the process of cartelization. From 1923 to 1935, cartelization grew in Germany until finally that nation was so organized that everyone had to belong either to a squad, a regiment or a brigade in order to survive. The names given to these squads, regiments or brigades were cartels, trade associations, unions and trusts. Such a distribution system could not adjust its prices. It needed a general with quasi-military authority who could order the workers to work and the mills to produce. Hitler named himself that general. Had it not been Hitler it would have been someone else."

I suspect that to most readers, Arnold's words are bewildering. People today are quite certain that they know what fascism is. When I ask people to define it, they typically tell me what it was, the assumption being that it no longer exists. Most people associate fascism with concentration camps and rows of storm troopers, yet they know nothing of the political and economic processes that led to these horrible end results.

Before the rise of fascism, Germany and Italy were, on paper, liberal democracies. Fascism did not swoop down on these nations as if from another planet. To the contrary, fascist dictatorship was the result of political and economic changes these nations underwent while they were still democratic. In both these countries, economic power became so utterly concentrated that the bulk of all economic activity fell under the control of a handful of men. Economic power, when sufficiently vast, becomes by its very nature political power. The political power of big business supported fascism in Italy and Germany.

Business tightened its grip on the state in both Italy and Germany by means of intricate webs of cartels and business associations. These associations exercised a high degree of control over the businesses of their members. They frequently controlled pricing, supply and the licensing of patented technology. These associations were private but were entirely legal. Neither Germany nor Italy had effective antitrust laws, and the proliferation of business associations was generally encouraged by government.

This was an era eerily like our own, insofar as economists and businessmen constantly clamoured for self-regulation in business. By the mid 1920s, however, self-regulation had become self-imposed regimentation. By means of monopoly and cartel, the businessmen had wrought for themselves a "command and control" economy that replaced the free market. The business associations of Italy and Germany at this time are perhaps history's most perfect illustration of Adam Smith's famous dictum: "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."

How could the German government not be influenced by Fritz Thyssen, the man who controlled most of Germany's coal production? How could it ignore the demands of the great I.G. Farben industrial trust, controlling as it did most of that nation's chemical production? Indeed, the German nation was bent to the will of these powerful industrial interests. Hitler attended to the reduction of taxes applicable to large businesses while simultaneously increasing the same taxes as they related to small business. Previous decrees establishing price ceilings were repealed such that the cost of living for the average family was increased. Hitler's economic policies hastened the destruction of Germany's middle class by decimating small business.

Ironically, Hitler pandered to the middle class, and they provided some of his most enthusiastically violent supporters. The fact that he did this while simultaneously destroying them was a terrible achievement of Nazi propaganda.

Hitler also destroyed organized labour by making strikes illegal. Notwithstanding the socialist terms in which he appealed to the masses, Hitler's labour policy was the dream come true of the industrial cartels that supported him. Nazi law gave total control over wages and working conditions to the employer.

Compulsory (slave) labour was the crowning achievement of Nazi labour relations. Along with millions of people, organized labour died in the concentration camps. The camps were not only the most depraved of all human achievements, they were a part and parcel of Nazi economic policy. Hitler's Untermenschen, largely Jews, Poles and Russians, supplied slave labour to German industry. Surely this was a capitalist bonanza. In another bitter irony, the gates over many of the camps bore a sign that read Arbeit Macht Frei — "Work shall set you free." I do not know if this was black humour or propaganda, but it is emblematic of the deception that lies at the heart of fascism.

The same economic reality existed in Italy between the two world wars. In that country, nearly all industrial activity was owned or controlled by a few corporate giants, Fiat and the Ansaldo shipping concern being the chief examples of this.

Land ownership in Italy was also highly concentrated and jealously guarded. Vast tracts of farmland were owned by a few latifundisti. The actual farming was carried out by a landless peasantry who were locked into a role essentially the same as that of the sharecropper of the U.S. Deep South.

As in Germany, the few owners of the nation's capital assets had immense influence over government. As a young man, Mussolini had been a strident socialist, and he, like Hitler, used socialist language to lure the people to fascism. Mussolini spoke of a "corporate" society wherein the energy of the people would not be wasted on class struggle. The entire economy was to be divided into industry specific corporazioni, bodies composed of both labour and management representatives. The corporazioni would resolve all labour/management disputes; if they failed to do so, the fascist state would intervene.

Unfortunately, as in Germany, there laid at the heart of this plan a swindle. The corporazioni, to the extent that they were actually put in place, were controlled by the employers. Together with Mussolini's ban on strikes, these measures reduced the Italian labourer to the status of peasant.

Mussolini, the one-time socialist, went on to abolish the inheritance tax, a measure that favoured the wealthy. He decreed a series of massive subsidies to Italy's largest industrial businesses and repeatedly ordered wage reductions. Italy's poor were forced to subsidize the wealthy. In real terms, wages and living standards for the average Italian dropped precipitously under fascism.

Even this brief historical sketch shows how fascism did the bidding of big business. The fact that Hitler called his party the "National Socialist Party" did not change the reactionary nature of his policies. The connection between the fascist dictatorships and monopoly capital was obvious to the U.S. Department of Justice in 1939. As of 2005, however, it is all but forgotten.

It is always dangerous to forget the lessons of history. It is particularly perilous to forget about the economic origins of fascism in our modern era of deregulation. Most Western liberal democracies are currently in the thrall of what some call market fundamentalism. Few nowadays question the flawed assumption that state intervention in the marketplace is inherently bad.

As in Italy and Germany in the '20s and '30s, business associations clamour for more deregulation and deeper tax cuts. The gradual erosion of antitrust legislation, especially in the United States, has encouraged consolidation in many sectors of the economy by way of mergers and acquisitions. The North American economy has become more monopolistic than at any time in the post-WWII period.

U.S. census data from 1997 shows that the largest four companies in the food, motor vehicle and aerospace industries control 53.4, 87.3 and 55.6 per cent of their respective markets. Over 20 per cent of commercial banking in the U.S. is controlled by the four largest financial institutions, with the largest 50 controlling over 60 per cent. Even these numbers underestimate the scope of concentration, since they do not account for the myriad interconnections between firms by means of debt instruments and multiple directorships, which further reduce the extent of competition.

Actual levels of U.S. commercial concentration have been difficult to measure since the 1970s, when strong corporate opposition put an end to the Federal Trade Commission's efforts to collect the necessary information.

Fewer, larger competitors dominate all economic activity, and their political will is expressed with the millions of dollars they spend lobbying politicians and funding policy formulation in the many right-wing institutes that now limit public discourse to the question of how best to serve the interests of business.

The consolidation of the economy and the resulting perversion of public policy are themselves fascistic. I am certain, however, that former president Bill Clinton was not worried about fascism when he repealed federal antitrust laws that had been enacted in the 1930s.

The Canadian Council of Chief Executives is similarly unworried about fascism as it lobbies the Canadian government to water down proposed amendments to our federal Competition Act. (The Competition Act, last amended in 1986, regulates monopolies, among other things, and itself represents a watering down of Canada's previous antitrust laws. It was essentially rewritten by industry and handed to the Mulroney government to be enacted.)

At present, monopolies are regulated on purely economic grounds to ensure the efficient allocation of goods.

If we are to protect ourselves from the growing political influence of big business, then our antitrust laws must be reconceived in a way that recognizes the political danger of monopolistic conditions.

Antitrust laws do not just protect the market place, they protect democracy.

It might be argued that North America's democratic political systems are so entrenched that we needn't fear fascism's return. The democracies of Italy and Germany in the 1920s were in many respects fledgling and weak. Our systems will surely react at the first whiff of dictatorship.

Or will they? This argument denies the reality that the fascist dictatorships were preceded by years of reactionary politics, the kind of politics that are playing out today. Further, it is based on the conceit that whatever our own governments do is democracy. Canada still clings to a quaint, 19th-century "first past the post" electoral system in which a minority of the popular vote can and has resulted in majority control of Parliament.

In the U.S., millions still question the legality of the sitting president's first election victory, and the power to declare war has effectively become his personal prerogative. Assuming that we have enough democracy to protect us is exactly the kind of complacency that allows our systems to be quietly and slowly perverted. On paper, Italy and Germany had constitutional, democratic systems. What they lacked was the eternal vigilance necessary to sustain them. That vigilance is also lacking today.

Our collective forgetfulness about the economic nature of fascism is also dangerous at a philosophical level. As contradictory as it may seem, fascist dictatorship was made possible because of the flawed notion of freedom that held sway during the era of laissez-faire capitalism in the early 20th century.

It was the liberals of that era who clamoured for unfettered personal and economic freedom, no matter what the cost to society. Such untrammelled freedom is not suitable to civilized humans. It is the freedom of the jungle. In other words, the strong have more of it than the weak. It is a notion of freedom that is inherently violent, because it is enjoyed at the expense of others. Such a notion of freedom legitimizes each and every increase in the wealth and power of those who are already powerful, regardless of the misery that will be suffered by others as a result. The use of the state to limit such "freedom" was denounced by the laissez-faire liberals of the early 20th century. The use of the state to protect such "freedom" was fascism. Just as monopoly is the ruin of the free market, fascism is the ultimate degradation of liberal capitalism.

In the post-war period, this flawed notion of freedom has been perpetuated by the neo-liberal school of thought. The neo-liberals denounce any regulation of the marketplace. In so doing, they mimic the posture of big business in the pre-fascist period. Under the sway of neo-liberalism, Thatcher, Reagan, Mulroney and George W. Bush have decimated labour and exalted capital. (At present, only 7.8 per cent of workers in the U.S. private sector are unionized — about the same percentage as in the early 1900s.)

Neo-liberals call relentlessly for tax cuts, which, in a previously progressive system, disproportionately favour the wealthy. Regarding the distribution of wealth, the neo-liberals have nothing to say. In the end, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. As in Weimar Germany, the function of the state is being reduced to that of a steward for the interests of the moneyed elite. All that would be required now for a more rapid descent into fascism are a few reasons for the average person to forget he is being ripped off. Hatred of Arabs, fundamentalist Christianity or an illusory sense of perpetual war may well be taking the place of Hitler's hatred for communists and Jews.

Neo-liberal intellectuals often recognize the need for violence to protect what they regard as freedom. Thomas Friedman of The New York Times has written enthusiastically that "the hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist," and that "McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the U.S. Air Force F-15." As in pre-fascist Germany and Italy, the laissez-faire businessmen call for the state to do their bidding even as they insist that the state should stay out of the marketplace. Put plainly, neo-liberals advocate the use of the state's military force for the sake of private gain. Their view of the state's role in society is identical to that of the businessmen and intellectuals who supported Hitler and Mussolini. There is no fear of the big state here. There is only the desire to wield its power. Neo-liberalism is thus fertile soil for fascism to grow again into an outright threat to our democracy.

Having said that fascism is the result of a flawed notion of freedom, we need to re-examine what we mean when we throw around the word. We must conceive of freedom in a more enlightened way.

Indeed, it was the thinkers of the Enlightenment who imagined a balanced and civilized freedom that did not impinge upon the freedom of one's neighbour. Put in the simplest terms, my right to life means that you must give up your freedom to kill me. This may seem terribly obvious to decent people. Unfortunately, in our neo-liberal era, this civilized sense of freedom has, like the dangers of fascism, been all but forgotten.

Paul Bigioni is a lawyer practising in Markham. This article is drawn from his work on a book about the persistence of fascism.


From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 October 2006 02:11 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just reading the shorter piece ... the author seems to almost suggest a smooth transition from a neoliberal dominance of economic and political life to fascism. Perhaps that is simply a problem with reading a short passage.

In the past, however, fascism was always the result of a crisis that capitalism was unable to solve any other way. Or something like that. This "crisis" precipitating fascism is missing. But I would agree, especially in the USA, that some of the foundation stones are in place. Then again, as long as there is capitalism there will always be the danger of a fascistic response to crisis.

Some other authors have a recent interesting piece on a similar topic:
It could happen here.

quote:
We propose that the current talk about fascism has arisen from conditions that can be best summed up as a general crisis of Pax Americana. By general crisis we mean a convergence of developments, long-term and short, pervading the social order that have rendered much of it dysfunctional and dystopian. Stated in another way, the concept of a general crisis describes Pax Americana in economic, political, social and cultural decline.

The authors are Gregory Meyerson and Michael Joseph Roberto. The article has excellent footnotes, some of which have links, that could serve as the foundation for a reading list on fascism. "A fully annotated version of this article is available from the authors." I like to see this sort of scholarship on the left.

As part of their conclusion, the authors quote Nafeez Mossadegh Ahmed:

quote:
Because the “post-9/11 military geostrategy of the ‘War on Terror’ does not spring from a position of power but rather from entirely the opposite.” Ahmed claims that the “global system has been crumbling under the weight of its own unsustainability… and we are fast approaching the convergence of multiple crises that are already interacting fatally….” These crises include peak oil and climate tipping points, and a dollar denominated economy on the verge, according to no less an authority than Paul Volcker, of a currency crisis (the contradictory character of U.S. plans are indicated by the currency problem, both cause and consequence of a desperate strategy). Ahmed asserts that senior level planners in the policy making establishment have appeared to calculate “that the system is dying” but the last “viable means of sustaining it remains [sic] a fundamentally military solution” designed to “rehabilitate the system … to meet the requirements of the interlocking circuits of military-corporate power and profit.”

and finally ...

quote:
Ahmed ends his very recent article (July 24) with Daniel Ellsberg’s warning that another 9-11 event “or a major war in the Middle East involving a U.S. attack on Iran …will be an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree,” involving massive detention of both Middle Easterners and critics of the policy, the latter deemed terrorist sympathizers.

[ 08 October 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 October 2006 02:40 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Supplemental: another recent thread here on babble is interesting reading related to the topic of this thread.

Are you an "enemy combatant"?

Somehow, travel to the USA is not something that I'm in a hurry to do. Know what I mean?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 08 October 2006 02:46 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr.Beltov - is Islamic terrorism, or the perception of it, not the "crisis" required for the transition from neo-liberalism to fascism? If there is another attack on US soil anywhere near the scale of 9/11, whoever carries it out, I think that will be the only excuse the ruling class needs to tear up what is left of the US constitution.
From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 October 2006 02:48 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, yea. That is the point that (Nafeez Mossadegh) Ahmed makes - at least in the view of the two authors.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 08 October 2006 02:50 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
yeah sorry I had missed that - I should take to reading things through fully BEFORE I reply.
From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 October 2006 03:02 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No problemo. I think it's useful to read the opinions of several people who have similar views. You get a better variety of objections, arguments and counter-arguments.

Another thing about the Nazi precedent is that they didn't wait for a real attack. They staged one and blamed the commies. [Hence Ahmed's reference to the Reichstag fire.]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 08 October 2006 04:20 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nice to see this leaking out into the MSM but were already a long ways down that road. This was posted on EnMasse if anyone thinks the end results will be much different here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/09/18/video-kids-at-jesus-camp_n_29703.html

(YouTube video I'm afraid, so need a decent player)


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 08 October 2006 04:51 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/082103F.shtml

this was written in 1944 - note how prophetic some of it is (obviously he gets some things wrong, and I also disagree with his ideological stance as he is a pretty much textbook liberal - but IMO he is eerily accurate in some of his predictions). This is my favourite:

"American fascism will not be really dangerous until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information, and those who stand for the K.K.K. type of demagoguery."


From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 08 October 2006 06:52 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The simple answer is yes. Thanks to the events of 9/28 it is all over with our democracy. The Supremes will not overturn the Military Commissions Act. Bush now has all the authority in his hands that he needs to do what he will.

And most Americans don't care.

We've lost our country and our freedom through not merely inattentiveness but because we just didn't give enough of a damn to get involved. Too many of us were too busy making money to care. And since we've been conditioned to obey since we were children, its come naturally.

I should like to point out that the more I read about US-Canada relations, the more I am convinced that moving to Canada would be a temporary respite and a fool's errand for the true activist. After all, the DEA has offices and operational capability on Canadian soil and according to this article, the FBI now can operate with damn near impunity on Canadian soil:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/10/05/fbi-border.html

Since most people can't conceive of putting anything at risk to stop this movement toward fascism, I am now convinced that it is pretty much all over with freedom and democracy in the United States.

Again, all that is truly needed for the beast to start operating out in the open air is one more 'coalescing event.' And you know its coming. Like the first and second world trade center attacks, something new will come. And now all the i's have been dotted and the t's crossed.

Sorry to be so cynical, but I live here and know my people. As long as there is food in the fridge and the game on the tube, life is good. Keep your head down, your mouth shut and do as you're told and you can enjoy the bounty of the American dream (tm).

All hail our non-negotiable lifestyle.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
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posted 08 October 2006 06:56 PM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
re: original post's Question: Quite simply, I doubt it.

Citizens need to participate in democracy, not become complacent. The checks and balances would prevent a move to facism. In terms of the US, the constitution protects the citizens from the government.

[ 08 October 2006: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]


From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 October 2006 07:19 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Steve Yoder over at ZNet outlines a lengthy list of the vocabulary of fascism. What's interesting is that alongside comments by officials of the Nazi Reich he places similar comments ... from officials of the Bush administration. The topics include: Allies and Enemies, Executive Authority, International Law, International Opinion, Interrogation, Peace, Preemptive War, Prisoners of War, Propaganda, Torture, Troops, and Us Versus Them. It's all there.

Fascist Vocabulary


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 October 2006 07:32 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canada is on the road. The USians have arrived.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 08 October 2006 08:10 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But does fascism, like torture, not have its own seed of self destruction buildin?
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 08 October 2006 08:11 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr.Beltov that link was fascinating and very worrying indeed. Thanks.
From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 08 October 2006 11:41 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's another couple of links that are truly chilling:

Profits über Alles! American Corporations and Hitler

It's long but is the most through examination of the links between corporate America and the Nazis. It will shock you to see all the connections so clearly laid out (even if you heard some of it before). What's most chilling is that these same corporations read like a who's who of today's current leaders. Definitely worth a read and passing on to as many as possible.

Meanwhile the religious right are busy developing a new video game to hone their slaying skills by blasting us heathens senseless.

The Purpose Driven Life Takers

quote:
Imagine: you are a foot soldier in a paramilitary group whose purpose is to remake America as a Christian theocracy, and establish its worldly vision of the dominion of Christ over all aspects of life. You are issued high-tech military weaponry, and instructed to engage the infidel on the streets of New York City. You are on a mission - both a religious mission and a military mission -- to convert or kill Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, gays, and anyone who advocates the separation of church and state - especially moderate, mainstream Christians. Your mission is "to conduct physical and spiritual warfare"; all who resist must be taken out with extreme prejudice. You have never felt so powerful, so driven by a purpose: you are 13 years old. You are playing a real-time strategy video game whose creators are linked to the empire of mega-church pastor Rick Warren, best selling author of The Purpose Driven Life.

Time has dubbed Mr. Warren "America's minister." But Mr. Warren says that his agenda stretches far beyond America, and far beyond traditional ministry. He sees himself as the CEO of a global marketing enterprise, and as the Commander in Chief of a stealth army of one billion Christian foot soldiers.

His dominionist theology is apparent in this ministry. A key aspect of dominionist thought is a conviction that the Scripture gives the church a mandate to take dominion over this world socially and culturally before the return of Jesus Christ. Mr. Warren's global plan is a strategy to realize a dominionist vision of churches, states, and corporations forming partnerships to bring about a new world order to make way for Christ's return by establishing a literal, physical kingdom of God on earth. In order to build this earthly kingdom, Mr. Warren plans marketplace ministries - business ventures with a veneer of missionary compassion that slip into a country in order to transform it systematically through the governmental, corporate, and social sectors.

According to Mr. Warren, the establishment of this earthly kingdom requires "foot soldiers." As part of his plan, Mr. Warren said he would encourage laypeople to "adopt" needy villages overseas in order to plant churches, expand business opportunities, educate children, influence governments, and overthrow corrupt political leaders, whom he described as "little Saddams." Mr. Warren said his purpose is to enlist "one billion foot soldiers for the Kingdom of God" in the developing world. And the stadium crowd roared its approval.

Celebrants included Paul Kagame, the president of Rwanda, a tiny east African country that lost hundreds of thousands of people when it suffered genocide in 1994. Catholic and Protestant clergy have been convicted in connection with that genocide. Yet Mr. Kagame announced that he would allow Mr. Warren to turn his country into the first purpose driven nation. The following month, 16 Rwandan religious leaders arrived in Orange County to begin religious training at Saddleback Church.


Zeig heil and pass the ammo (or the tums ...)


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Abdul_Maria
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posted 09 October 2006 08:44 AM      Profile for Abdul_Maria     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm

check out Chapter 2.

were Bush & Harriman working for Hitler & Thyssen ?

or vice versa ?

"Bush Property Seized - Trading with the Enemy".

in my life, i would like to see this headline in a major paper. along with all the history that goes with it.

as far as the original subject - America is there. just the other day i heard 2 mountain bikers on Twin Peaks talking, saying, "you know, i like san francisco, it's not so liberal anymore".

unfortunately, Canada is following America.

fortunately, Canada is a sovereign state & a much different country.

retired Berkeley econ. prof. Doug Dowd likes to say, "America has a democracy, if only you would use it".

after watching what happened during the last 2 elections, and witnessing my own not-entirely-Republican family's response, my reading is that America is no longer a democracy, and that most Americans accept the bread and circuses and Diebold replacement we have as plenty good enough.


From: San Fran | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 09 October 2006 11:57 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by a lonely worker:
Definitely worth a read and passing on to as many as possible.

Zeig heil and pass the ammo (or the tums ...)


We tried passing on all that information is a big forum that has 10's of millions of readers, response was we got banned and the topic board shut down as that was then and this is now, sorta philosophy, the USians intent on war would not tolerate the the truth.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 09 October 2006 08:59 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have to shake my head in disbelief every time this topic comes up on babble. In disbelief that it's coming up again, as though we havn't already beaten this topic to death. In disbelief at the long-time babblers who still buy into this notion that America is fascist.

The United States is not fascist.

I point babblers to an article on Noam Chomsky's website by Robert W. McChesney titled Noam Chomsky and the Struggle Against Neoliberalism

quote:
Earlier in the twentieth century some critics called fascism "capitalism with the gloves off," meaning that fascism was pure capitalism without democratic rights and organizations. In fact, we know that fascism is vastly more complex than that. Neoliberalism, on the other hand, is indeed "capitalism with the gloves off." It represents an era in which business forces are stronger and more aggressive, and face less organized opposition than ever before. In this political climate they attempt to codify their political power and enact their vision on every possible front. As a result, business is increasingly difficult to challenge, and civil society (nonmarket, noncommercial, and democratic forces) barely exists at all.

From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 October 2006 09:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Noam isn't god, he is merely interesting, but hardly infallible.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 09 October 2006 09:13 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
The United States is not fascist.
I agree with you, but that 7-1/2-year-old article by McChesney doesn't prove the point - nor indeed does it try to.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 October 2006 09:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps this endorsement will give LT pause for second thought on his original conclusion.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 09 October 2006 09:37 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From fervent nationalism to fraudulent elections, the situation in U.S. has all of the 14 defining points for American-style fascism

And our lap dogs in Ottawa wouldn't protest in the least. Like the U.S.-Japan security calls for re-writing Japan's constitution to allow nukes on their soil, our poodles in Ottawa would belly up for the next dud Bomark missile purchase without so much as consulting the public or even political opposition(ha!).

[ 09 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 October 2006 09:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Myabe its not "Fascism" per se, but if we split to many hairs on these issues we are going to need a pretty good conditioner to get our hair straight again, that is, if we aren't forced to cut off the whole head, so to speak.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 09 October 2006 11:12 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Noam isn't god, he is merely interesting, but hardly infallible.

Where did I ever say that Noam Chomsky is god?


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 09 October 2006 11:13 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Perhaps this endorsement will give LT pause for second thought on his original conclusion.

I welcome any endorsement I get from M. Spector. Sorry Cueball.


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 09 October 2006 11:37 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
The United States is not fascist.

"If fascism comes to America, it would be on a program of Americanism," Huey Long once famously said.

Or else he said

quote:
"If fascism ever comes to America, it will come wrapped in an American flag."

Or "when fascism comes to America, it will call itself Americanism, it will call itself democracy, but it will be fascism."

Or

quote:
When fascism comes to America . . . it'll come disguised as Americanism.

"Of course we will have fascism in America but we will call it democracy!" - Huey Long.

Or Louisiana Governor Huey Long ironically noted that, 'When fascism comes to America it will come disguised as anti-fascism.'

Gee, I love that quote, whatever it is.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 09 October 2006 11:41 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
From fervent nationalism to fraudulent elections, the situation in U.S. has all of the 14 defining points for American-style fascism

[ 09 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


That document is a red herring. A true fascist nation would be far worse on most of those 14 points than the US currently is. Besides, isn't Fascism about putting into power segments of the Bourgeoisie that could not otherwise achieve power?

The terms I would use to describe the current ideologies of the American government are neo-fundamentalism and neo-imperialism.


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 10 October 2006 03:02 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A true fascist nation would be far worse on most of those 14 points than the US currently is. Besides, isn't Fascism about putting into power segments of the Bourgeoisie that could not otherwise achieve power?

Some of the items on that list could apply to many countries around the world, including some well-regarded democracies. Regulation of the mass media? Is anyone here aware that Frnace has long had a law on the books against insulting the President?

I don't think that the USA is anywhere near having the penetration into civil society that would be neccessary for true fascism to take shape. Can anyone name me one single organization that Americans are legally obliged to join, or one singe activity(besides paying taxes) that they are obliged to do?


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 10 October 2006 03:57 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Source for the info on the French law...

quote:
Under French law it is a criminal offence to insult the president, carrying a fine of up to 45,000 euros (Ł30,000).


And for all those who think that the USA really has reached a state of fascism...

Do you think that left-wing Americans should support the general aims the home-schooling movement? Because if the USA really is fascist, I can pretty much guarantee you that the last place any left-winger should be sending their kids is to the public schools.

http://tinyurl.com/7wpe

[ 10 October 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 10 October 2006 05:33 AM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Can anyone name me one single organization that Americans are legally obliged to join, or one singe activity(besides paying taxes) that they are obliged to do?

Try not standing for the National anthem. Or refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance. A minor affront, no? Hell, I got some pretty nasty looks when I refused to stand for the Canadian anthem at a Flames game.

But seriously, aren't Americans obligated by law to register for selective service (the draft) when they reach 18? Even though there is no real draft, they must still put themselves in the pool.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 October 2006 06:13 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:

I welcome any endorsement I get from M. Spector. Sorry Cueball.


Well thats just dandy then!

In anycase, this whole idea that countries "slide" into fascism is a little out of touch. What is usually the case is the siezure of power by a clique within the ruling elite is precipitated by a national crisis.

A mere glance at the USA today suggests that such a crisis is imminent, possible, if not extremely likely.

The fact that there are extremely regressive trends in mainstream us politics, militarism, an over-weaning sense of national pride, knee jerk defensiveness, movements by sectors of the elite to curtail essential constitutional guarantees, general scapegoating of vulnerable national minorities, a highly controlled media, do not bode well for the possibility that the US will face a national crisis by becoming more liberal.

Recent attacks on the Bill of Rights such as the Patriot Act, and removing emergency powers to the executive to be adminstered by fiat, smack very heavily of the Nazi Enabling Act, fixed elections, etc... Lets not forget that the Nazi's didn't just up and throw all the commies and Jews in jail at once, the stage had to be set first.

Hmmm... dream on, and go ahead split some more hairs if you like. Right now living in Canada feels a little like what it was probably like living in Denmark in 1933.

[ 10 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 10 October 2006 08:28 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With the loss of Habeas Corpus, the corporatization of media, and the merging of corporate/public interests, the US has crossed the line into fascism. What is required is consolidation. That will occur when an authoratarian cabal seizes government and suspends democratic institutins and processes (habeas corpus being one) likely on a pretext.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 10 October 2006 08:34 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:
But seriously, aren't Americans obligated by law to register for selective service (the draft) when they reach 18? Even though there is no real draft, they must still put themselves in the pool.


Granted. But several European countries had mandatory military service(not just registration) well into the 1990s. And if I'm not mistaken, Germany still does. I'm excluding South Korea from the list because they are still in a technical state of war against a heavily militarized power.

http://tinyurl.com/f6pc5


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2006 11:39 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by voice of the damned:
Because if the USA really is fascist, I can pretty much guarantee you that the last place any left-winger should be sending their kids is to the public schools.

I think your Guardian link is "exemplorary" of Fascism's defining point numero tres, "Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause"

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

And on disdain for intellectuals and the arts, the U.S. fits the bill, and with its subserviant banana republic of Canada following in lockstep as usual:

Fascism in Canada

quote:
Anti-intellectualism

Another classic pattern of fascism is the attack on intellectuals, universities, students, and the very concept of higher education. This pattern is repeating itself in Canada at both the federal and provincial levels. The proposal of the ruling Liberal Party to cut transfer payments to the provinces would make education far more expensive. Tuition fees are predicted to rise, possibly by 300% or more; small and medium sized colleges and universities might have to close. Ultimately this will mean that higher education will become restricted to the sons and daughters of the wealthy. As a result, more young people will be driven into the "reserve army of the unemployed" and, thereby, working-class gains won through trade unions will be severely weakened. Furthermore, large numbers of young people will enter their working lives without the type of liberal arts education which provides an intellectual inoculation against reactionary and fascist ideology.

On another level, the Klein government in Alberta is demanding an end to the tenure system in universities. Tenure is the guarantee of academic freedom, allowing professors to espouse anti-government views without fear of losing their jobs. Along with this overt threat, the Klein Tories are demanding changes in faculty collective agreements that would enable administrators to dismiss professors whenever they felt economically constrained. The position of Marxist, Communist, Socialist, Anarchist, or Radical Feminist professors would become particularly unstable in such a context.


"Work all night on a drink a'rum
(Daylight come and he wan' go home)
Stack banana till thee morning come
(Daylight come and he wan' go home)"

buenos dias


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 October 2006 12:03 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's "Saint Noam" on fascism from a recent Georgia Straight of October 5 of this year:

quote:
Chomsky: "You know, we're not living in a fascist state," he says. "We don't have to face torture chambers and secret police and so on. Consumerism is a much easier threat to face than torture chambers. We can overcome this, as in the past. There have been similar periods of regression that have been overcome. The 1960s is a recent example. It really led to civilizing society in significant ways. The rights of minorities, the rights of women, opposition
to aggression -- these were substantial changes. And there was a backlash.and very self-conscious efforts to try to beat back the
democratizing wave. And, yes, we're in the middle of that period now. But not forever. It's continuing, but I think its hold on power is very fragile and it could be overcome. It's a matter of will, really."

So, "Get off your butts," says Noam the drill sargeant for radicals. Not bad advice, actually.

[ 10 October 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 October 2006 12:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I really don't think Noam is on the ball with this one, with respect. I mean sure he can point to other eras of opression in US society, and say "look we got through McCarthy." He doesn't consider the possibility that since the sixities a primary objective of the right, has been ensuring that the kind of free expression and use of the Bill of Rights that was evidenced there does not happen again.'

And it seems they have been effective in this regard, with wholesale locking down of cities when large anti-globalization protest are in the offing, and a virtual lock on what is and is not told to people by the media. Any demonstrations opposed to the war, is more or less page 15 stuff these days, when in the sixties 6 kids in tied dyed-shirts and a sign could get a front page story.

Similarly, the very controlled media approach to any of the recent wars, shows concretely a signficant curtailment of freedom of access to information. I think Noam is dated, and operating from a 80's view of US politics and the state of the nation, and ignoring the progressive loss of rights since the RFK, JFK, MLK, Malcolm X assassinations.

He seems to be suggesting this is a cultural problem to do with "consumerism" not a political one.

[ 10 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 10 October 2006 12:59 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Left Turn, you should really read the article, because the conclusion was that a prolonged period of neo-liberalism often leads to fascism. when the state and business are one, this is fascism - can this be denied about modern day USA?
From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Disgusted
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posted 10 October 2006 01:46 PM      Profile for Disgusted        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One of the few rays of hope that I see regarding the appalling current state of American "democracy" is the myth of American individuality, freedom, and self-determination that has been the basis for much American pride. The settling of the continent by people wanting to make a better life for themselves, the freedom of the open range and the life of the cowboy, the ability of the common man to rise above the pack by dint of his own efforts, and so on, are powerful motifs (despite the fact that the continent was actualy raped, the original inhabitants robbed and slaughtered, the cowboy's life was probably grueling, and many of those who become "successful" work hard to prevent others from getting what they got.) Still, these have helped shaped the American psyche, and there is some truth in them. How many other countries in the world have had such a view of themselves as a nation, glorifying rugged individual freedom? I'm no historian, so would welcome some enlightenment on that issue, but I do think the American myth of self-determination is unique.

So while I agree with American Egalitaire that it looks pretty grim for the America we used to know (or thought we did), perhaps at some future point if/when Americans smarten up and become unhappy with the repression that rules their lives, some will revive those myths and wonder what has happened to them. Whether or not they will be able to do anything about it remains to be seen.

It also helps to remember that there is, right now, a large percentage of the American public who see what is happening and don't like it. Perhaps the outrage will grow and the tide will turn.

Failing that, and given that the world as a whole seems to be going to hell in a handbasket, it will probably take major worldwide catastrophe and the death of billions to put and end to American fascism. Not exactly the best solution though ... (except for the Rapturists, that is).


From: Yukon | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 10 October 2006 01:57 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
One of the few rays of hope that I see regarding the appalling current state of American "democracy" is the myth of American individuality, freedom, and self-determination that has been the basis for much American pride. The settling of the continent by people wanting to make a better life for themselves, the freedom of the open range and the life of the cowboy, the ability of the common man to rise above the pack by dint of his own efforts, and so on, are powerful motifs (despite the fact that the continent was actualy raped, the original inhabitants robbed and slaughtered, the cowboy's life was probably grueling, and many of those who become "successful" work hard to prevent others from getting what they got.) Still, these have helped shaped the American psyche, and there is some truth in them. How many other countries in the world have had such a view of themselves as a nation, glorifying rugged individual freedom? I'm no historian, so would welcome some enlightenment on that issue, but I do think the American myth of self-determination is unique.

I think there is a lot of truth what you say, as many of bush's biggest ciritics who I have corresponded with are actually very conservative/libertarian - although some believe themselves to be liberals (surely a triumph of right-wing propaganda in itself, to make people believe your own lies about them). The trouble is that this myth is precisely the one the right use to excuse their actions, so in effect it may have been largeky neutralised. But I hope your are right.

Let me leave you with some very wise words I once heard (I don't know who the original quote is from):

quote:
Freedom, as a concept, has only ever been used to enslave.

From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 October 2006 03:52 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd say the state of American democracy is about what it was during the time of Wilson-Coolidge and the Palmer Raids.

That is, many worrying violations of individual rights, policies directed at making corporations happy, etc. etc.

In fascist countries, by contrast, elections are replaced by the veneration of a "dynamic" leader.

Those who actually were elected to representative institutions ended up in jail.

Under fascism, legal institutions are no longer independent, but are subordinate to The Leader and his will.

One need only read the Hamdan decision from the US Supreme Court to know that this is not true of the US at this time.

Bottom line: Bush is a terrible President and has the blood of thousands of Iraqis and others on his hands. But even if he were a fascist, the US is far from being a fascist state.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 10 October 2006 04:11 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'd say the state of American democracy is about what it was during the time of Wilson-Coolidge and the Palmer Raids.
That is, many worrying violations of individual rights, policies directed at making corporations happy, etc. etc.

In fascist countries, by contrast, elections are replaced by the veneration of a "dynamic" leader.

Those who actually were elected to representative institutions ended up in jail.

Under fascism, legal institutions are no longer independent, but are subordinate to The Leader and his will.

One need only read the Hamdan decision from the US Supreme Court to know that this is not true of the US at this time.

Bottom line: Bush is a terrible President and has the blood of thousands of Iraqis and others on his hands. But even if he were a fascist, the US is far from being a fascist state.


But can't fascism come in many different guises? I mean, firstly, can you reallly claim that there is a free media in America? It seems to me that all mainstream national media is pure propaganda. Also, with the extent that money dominates politics now, it seems to me as if the elites are as much in full control as they were in any more conventionally fascist state. Is it not possible to have fascism with elections? If we take the definition of fascism as the merger of business and the state, is the US, if not actually fascist at this moment in time, at least showing worrying signs? If you read the article, it is suggesting that it is through economic policy that fascism is born - the same heavily pro-business corporatism which is taking place in the US today.


From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 October 2006 05:02 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But can't fascism come in many different guises?

Words have meanings. The meaning can be stretched, but when that happens, clarity is lost.

I know that calling someone a "fascist" can be quite satisfying, but it can be alarmist, too.

I like to use words carefully, because then, when I say something, people are more likely to believe it.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 10 October 2006 06:38 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I should like to point out that the more I read about US-Canada relations, the more I am convinced that moving to Canada would be a temporary respite and a fool's errand for the true activist.

If you don't come to Canada what would your second choice be? The problem is that the political futures of many Western nations don't look very bright at this point. The United Kingdom and Australia are marching to Bush's big drum and the extreme right is becoming extraordinarily popular in many Western European states. I think that you could hear the midnight knock on the door no matter where you move in the industrialized world.

Edited to because of concerns about style.

[ 11 October 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Il Morto Qui Parla
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posted 10 October 2006 07:11 PM      Profile for Il Morto Qui Parla     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Words have meanings. The meaning can be stretched, but when that happens, clarity is lost.

I know that calling someone a "fascist" can be quite satisfying, but it can be alarmist, too.

I like to use words carefully, because then, when I say something, people are more likely to believe it.


I don't find it satisfying to call someone a fascist, I just think it is worth examining whether the USA are on the road to fascism in light of the persuasive arguments and firm evidence which point towards this being a possibility.


From: Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 10 October 2006 07:30 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

If you don't come to Canada what would your second choice be? The problem is that the political futures of many Western nations don't look very bright at this point. The United Kingdom and Australia are marching to Bush's big drum and the extreme right is becoming extraordinarily popular in many Western European nations. I think that unless you want to move to a place like Venezuela, you could hear the midnight knock on the door no matter where you move in the industrialized world.


That's exactly it and I agree with you. I could at some point, up until I turn 49 and start losing points big time, change my mind. I'm now seriously considering upstate Vermont (green socialism, in a way) in Burlington or thereabouts. But indeed, you are correct about Australia and the UK. And actually I need to be within a days drive of my mum and son in Cleveland. I am becoming realistic but I have to say, and it may be a false hope, that there does seem to be a stirring in the land leading up to this election.

My fear is that the Democrats will indeed take the house and senate and later the Presidency. And then there will be the next Reichstag fire. And all the laws and legal framework are in place for the hammer to truly come down. I fear HRC may go overboard to prove her toughness doing incalculable damage. At that point, the despair of true US progressives reaches the tipping point. What happens then I do not know. That's when you may see me crossing, I can't say. I have to hold out a hope, faint as it is, that people are waking up.

Definitions of fascism: the old fashioned definition of fascism would certainly not allow Keith Olbermann to take a marker and cross out every line of the Bill of Rights (except the Third Amendment) as he did tonight on his TV show. It was breathtaking and necessary. It was a sign of the non-death of healthy discourse.

It was hope.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 10 October 2006 07:59 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Il Morto Qui Parla:
Left Turn, you should really read the article, because the conclusion was that a prolonged period of neo-liberalism often leads to fascism. when the state and business are one, this is fascism - can this be denied about modern day USA?

Which article are you referring to? If you mean the one that I posted a link to, I read it. If you mean the October 5th Gerorgia Straight article, I read it too (and before it was linked on this thread). I wanted to post the excerpt from that article, but didn't have it in hand. So I googled Chomasky and Fascism instead.

And even if a prolonged period of neo-liberalism can lead to fascism, that alone does not prove that the USA has crossed the line into fascism.

I think way too many people on this thread are throwing around the term "Fascism" way too loosely. I'd like to think that we could recognize the transition to Fascism in the US should it happen. If we falsely think that America is Fascist when it is not, we will be blinded to any future arrival of Fascism, and won't have an appropriate response.


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 October 2006 09:01 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, but:

  • several million people from Afghanistan, the former Yugoslavia and Iraq have died premature deaths since 1991.
  • the hawks are likening Iran's leader to Adolf Hitler
  • maybe half of N.Americans are too stupid to know any better, and fascists operate on that principle
  • our lap dogs in Ottawa aided and abetted the overthrow of a democratically-elected leader in Haiti.
  • the voting systems in both countries favour corporate and big banking agendas, and over a hundred countries have better voter participation rates than both the U.S. and Canada

Is it fascism or fatalism ?.

Mayor Vaughn of Amity, Long Island 1975: "Fellows, let's be reasonable, huh? This is not the time or the place to perform some kind of a half-assed autopsy on a fish..."

[ 10 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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Babbler # 6943

posted 10 October 2006 10:07 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
One of the few rays of hope that I see regarding the appalling current state of American "democracy" is the myth of American individuality, freedom, and self-determination that has been the basis for much American pride. The settling of the continent by people wanting to make a better life for themselves, the freedom of the open range and the life of the cowboy, the ability of the common man to rise above the pack by dint of his own efforts, and so on, are powerful motifs (despite the fact that the continent was actualy raped, the original inhabitants robbed and slaughtered, the cowboy's life was probably grueling, and many of those who become "successful" work hard to prevent others from getting what they got.) Still, these have helped shaped the American psyche, and there is some truth in them. How many other countries in the world have had such a view of themselves as a nation, glorifying rugged individual freedom? I'm no historian, so would welcome some enlightenment on that issue, but I do think the American myth of self-determination is unique.

This is one of the things I was vaguely alluding to with my "home schooling" reference a few posts up. It seems to me that American conservativism has a strong faction that is all about withdrawing from institutions rather than gaining control of them. This is in some contrast to European conservatives, who were all about glorifying traditional institutions, and classical fascists, who were all about either taking control of traditional institutions or creating new institutions on a mass scale.

A guy like Timothy McVeigh(to take an extreme example), while certainly guilty of massive crimes, was in the final analysis really not much of a threat to anyone besides the unfortunate people he killed that day. McVeigh did not round up a mob and storm the federal building and demand that the government implement his program of action, he blew up the federal building in a nihilistic act of rebellion against the very idea of government itself. Had McVeigh stayed in the woods with his compatriots, chasing around phantom black helicopters with their hunting rifles, I can't really say I'd have been too worried about that, apart from thinking that they were all a bunch of A-1 weirdos.

At the polar opposite of the spectrum, and much closer to classical fascism, are the neo-cons. Far from wanting refuge from government, these guys are in love with the very idea of government, and are extremely hepped up about harnessing and expanding government for their own destructive ends. And, unlike the militia kooks, they're not content with fighting an imaginary war against phantom enemies. They fight(or more precisely, start) real wars against parties that end up being real enemies.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 10 October 2006 10:34 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Americain Egalitaire wrote:
quote:
Definitions of fascism: the old fashioned definition of fascism would certainly not allow Keith Olbermann to take a marker and cross out every line of the Bill of Rights (except the Third Amendment) as he did tonight on his TV show. It was breathtaking and necessary. It was a sign of the non-death of healthy discourse.

Thanks, AE, for cutting through the hysteria with another thoughtful post.

The old-fashioned definition of fascism is the only correct definition of fascism, IMO. And no, it wouldn't allow even a fraction of the dissent that exists in America today. The United States can only be declared fascist when it meets the proper definition of fascism, not when we have sufficiently modified the definition of fascism to fit the current state of political life in the United States.

[ 10 October 2006: Message edited by: Left Turn ]


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 11 October 2006 08:44 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I vacillate back and forth depending on my mood.

For instance I'm watching President Bush's press conference on CNN. I'm wondering if he's on something. He's far more inarticulate and defensive than usual. He seems more interested in what reporters are wearing than the questions. But questions on the war get him literally turning crimson when he answers. His replies are getting more strident and angry. He is becoming more obstinately insistent on his positions. I really think he's disturbed and today's press conference seems to really drive that home.

When he starts talking about the war, I play some old Nazi marches on my computer as background music (try it sometime, it just seems so fitting, especially the Konigsgraetzer March with its unfortunate history, Die Wacht am Rhein, while not a Nazi march is still quite appropos). Yet, of couse, its nowhere near that kind of fascism even though I can SEE that all the legalities have been lined up like ducks in a row. Remember the Nazis carefully codified everything they did in law.

But the US rarely needs to use bully boy methods to keep its population in line. The first line of defense for this modern state is the school system which breeds compliance, order and industrriousness (and an utter lack of knowledge about the history of the country) but the big line of defense is the ability to earn a living. Your employer here, with a burgeoning industry of checking one's references and, especially, views expressed online (that's the one that will probably kill me from forever wearing the white collar again) are the best and mose efficient use of social control. The greatest sin in America is poverty - of not being able to partake of the American Dream (tm). In a land of so much wealth, its a powerful incentive to keep your fucking mouth shut and go with the program and its gets harder and harder to fly under the radar.

Of course, when one is precluded from achieving that level of "success" many turn to crime and we have a penal system that would be the envy of Stalin. Its fantastically Kafkaesque (as is our criminal law), and its network is quite extensive and provides (masterfully) employment for a wide segment of people who would not otherwise be gainfully employed.

I mean, when you stand back and contemplate the American system of social control, you really have to give it credit. Very rarely do the guns have to come out and when they do (Waco, Kent State, Ruby Ridge) and the truncheons (Seattle and Miami) these little exercises in brutality are very well covered and provide a great lesson to the striving middle class to keep themselves in line. Do you want your boss to see you on the evening news? Remember that (like Robert Ley once said) only the employer can decide and almost all of our law is firmly on the side of the employer. You can thus exercise your freedom of speech on the unemployment line as your family wonders how you'll pay the rent.

Brilliant really.

Is it fascism? Well, not really. But it IS a highly effective system of social control that builds consensus, mutes debate or moves it to the avenues of comedy or academic parlor debate among people with no real power or access to the mainstream. With some exceptions as noted, Keith Olbermann. Perhaps he represents the steam that is let off to continue the mythology of freedom. Perhaps he has his own guardian angels within the media who have, indeed, gotten fed up with the current state of affairs and are willing to put something at risk. Most often, these experiments land up like Phil Donahue.

And the American people are so fickle. Should there be another 9-11 type incident watch the polls change in a heartbeat. Watch the laws that have been carefully crafted in secret at midnight suddenly become invoked. Watch the vast majority of the people fall silent as the flag is waved in their face. I would hope I'm wrong, but I would not bet against it.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Abdul_Maria
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posted 11 October 2006 08:53 AM      Profile for Abdul_Maria     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
The United States is not fascist.

whatever you call it - the US meets Mussolini's definition of Fascism.

the US is doing more bad sh*t than Mussolini's Fascist government.

+ 2 stolen elections.

= a worse-than-Fascist dictatorship.


From: San Fran | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 11 October 2006 08:56 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Addendum: David Rovics is also good to listen to as you watch Bush. I have this new song playing while I watch him as well which is rather fitting. Its from the new album Halliburton Boardroom Massacre. Since he provides all of this music free there's no problem with the lyrics.

By the way, DR is on tour and will be at First Unitarian of Minneapolis next Thurday at 6 p.m. as part of his North American tour. I'll be there and its only a few hours south for your Winterpeggers who want to brave the US border.

quote:
How far is it from here to Nuremberg?

David Rovics

Is there a flag upon your house

And a flag upon your car

And a ribbon on your mailbox

With the stars and bars

Do you support the president

And the war for oil

Do you think your sons belong

There on someone else’s soil

How far is it from here to Nuremberg?

Did you hear about Falluja

And the hundred thousand dead

Did you hear about the torture

In the newspapers you read

Did you pretend it didn’t matter

Did you blame a few bad men

Did you think your leaders

Wouldn’t just do it all again

How far is it from here to Nuremberg?

Did you design the software

That ran the engine in the tank

Or were you pushing papers

At City Bank

Were you in Seattle

Turning bombers into gold

Or did you pull the trigger

‘Cause you did what you were told

How far is it from here to Nuremberg?

Or did you take your kids to school

Go off to your job

Send your taxes off in April

To help support the mob

Did you vote the lesser evil

And think it’s all a shame

Did you think that this alone

Could take away the blame

How far is it from here to Nuremberg?




From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 11 October 2006 09:01 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Believe it - Bush just said "abu ghraib eased us off the moral high ground."

I kid you not, I just heard it live with my own ears.

EASED US OFF!

Good Goddess in the Ether if there was any justice in the world, he would be called to account for these crimes.

By the way, re: Keith Olbermann as previously mentioned:

WATCH IT HERE - The Death of Habeus Corpus

He's my hero. And I'm not being cute when I say that.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 13 October 2006 08:31 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Americans are too inattentive and distracted to be aware of the grave danger that the neoconservative Bush regime presents to American liberty and to world stability. The neoconservative drive to achieve hegemony over the American people and the entire world is similar to Hitler's drive for hegemony. Hitler used racial superiority to justify Germany's right to ride roughshod over other peoples and the right of the Nazi elite to rule over the German people. Neoconservatives use "American exceptionalism" and "the war on terror." There is no practical difference. Hitler cared no more about the peoples he mowed down in his drive for supremacy than the neoconservatives care about 655,000 dead Iraqis, 100,000 disabled American soldiers and 2,747 dead ones.

When Bush, the Decider, claims unconstitutional powers and uses "signing statements" to negate US law whenever he feels the rule of law is in the way of his leadership, he is remarkably similar to Hitler, the Fuhrer, who told the Reichstag on February 20, 1938: "A man who feels it his duty at such an hour to assume the leadership of his people is not responsible to the laws of parliamentary usage or to a particular democratic conception, but solely to the mission placed upon him. And anyone who interferes with this mission is an enemy of the people."

"You are with us or against us."


Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 30 November 2006 07:25 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Open letter to the American Psychological Association:
quote:
November 27, 2006
....
Dear Dr. Anderson:

It is with great sadness that I have decided that I can not in good conscience continue paying dues to the American Psychological Association, an organization that uses my money to support the participation of psychologists in illegal and immoral national security interrogations at Guantanamo and other concentration camps, known and unknown.

Guantanamo is illegal according to international law as detainees are held there without due process and with no legal protections, possibly for the rest of their lives. The United Nations Committee on Torture found that detention at Guantanamo was itself tantamount to torture. Further, there are repeated credible allegations of abuse and torture against detainees held at Guantanamo and other known and secret national security detention facilities. Psychologists, including Major John Leso, a member of APA, have reportedly participated in these abuses.

Numerous international organizations -- including the European Union, Amnesty International, and Physicians for Human Rights -- have condemned the existence or the nature of treatment at Guantanamo. Amnesty International, in their annual report, called Guantanamo "the gulag of our time." Psychologists participating there are thus aiding and abetting torture or abusive and dehumanizing behavior in this gulag.

The situation has become worse with the passage of the 2006 Military Commissions Act, which APA opposed. With the passage of this act, all legal protections have been overtly removed for national security detainees. Further, this act makes it clear, as do press reports, that detention may be for the rest of the detainees' lives. Additionally, the act essentially suspends United States participation in the Geneva Conventions protections against torture by allowing the President to redefine what these Conventions mean.

With these actions, along with many others, the United States government has declared itself an international outlaw. It is time for men and women of goodwill to refuse to collaborate with this outlaw in its illegal, immoral actions.

The APA has engaged in a repeated pattern of duplicitous, evasive, and illegitimate behaviors in order to protect the participation of psychologists in Guantanamo and the other gulags. The APA appointed a Presidential Task Force (PENS) to look into these matters and recommend policy. The APA kept the membership of the PENS Task Force secret. When the membership leaked it out, the reason for the secrecy became clear. Five of nine voting members, a majority, were from the military. At least four of them had direct experience with the interrogations of which the morality was in question. Further, APA officials took a strong role in "guiding" the PENS Task Force to its predetermined conclusion that participation in coercive national security interrogations was ethical. Not surprisingly, the APA officials insisted that PENS' members sign a confidentiality agreement, thus attempting to keep their immoral manipulation private. Upon reaching a conclusion, the PENS report was rushed through within days to official APA approval by the Board, circumventing the usual step of debate at Council. Thus, the PENS Task Force was a farce and its conclusions are, because of the duplicity with which it was created and manipulated, null and void.

In the summer of 2006, the APA reaffirmed its opposition to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. However, the APA managed, through a last-minute revision, to define "Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" in such a manner -- by reference to the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, the McCain Amendment, and three Amendments to the U.S. Constitution -- as to remove much of the Resolution's force. Through this subtle revision, the Resolution now implicitly defines "Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" using the relativistic "shocks the conscience" standard of American jurisprudence, allowing abusive behaviors to be justified through a claim of necessity to protect against harm.

The question of the treatment of national security detainees is one of those moral issues that defines a society. One either opposes these horrors or implicitly accepts them. The APA has repeatedly taken the latter path. It is part of the problem. In its response to this moral crisis, the APA has facilitated the abuse.

Therefore, I have decided that I can no longer pay dues to the APA because I cannot, in good conscience, pay to aid the APA's immoral actions. I refuse to accept the legitimacy of the leadership of the Association. Therefore, I am not at this time resigning membership. I look forward to the day when I can again in good conscience pay dues to the Association.

Thank you for your attention.

Sincerely,

Stephen Soldz, Ph.D.



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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