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Author Topic: Alberta eases child labour laws
Rush
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posted 24 June 2005 09:33 PM      Profile for Rush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From CBC Edmonton:
quote:
CBC NEWS – Restaurants in Alberta will now find it easier to hire children as young as 12 to be waitresses, dishwashers and other staff, after the province loosened its child-labour rules.

Critics are warning that the new regulation will make it easier to exploit adolescents, who are already considered more vulnerable than older workers.



From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
jianadaren
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posted 24 June 2005 10:20 PM      Profile for jianadaren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am really curious as to what the motivation behind this really is. Are we eventually going to harken back to the days when young people left school to help support the family? I am sure this appeals to misanthropic rednecks who believe young people should be enrolled in the army, forced to do all sorts of backbreaking work (to teach them the value of hard work, you know, or to make them more docile by breaking their spirits, etc.).

This reminds of a situation in China where children around 12 were enrolled in some kind of military camp. Fat kids who "couldn't cut it" were mocked and berated in front of their peers. Those that were too strong headed and refused to cooperate were just sent packing.

I am also worried that this will be a type of "cash grab" for employers. Are these children to be paid minimum wage?


From: China | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
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posted 24 June 2005 10:39 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Are these children to be paid minimum wage?

My understanding is that there still exists a lower minimum wage for youth (vs the minimum wage for adults) here in Alberta.


From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
nuclearfreezone
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posted 25 June 2005 12:51 AM      Profile for nuclearfreezone     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1. very cheap labour
2. most after-school and summer programs end at age 12 so you can send your kid to work after school and all summer and not worry about him/her bumming around
3. if their earnings are taxable, more taxes for the government

I see "exploitation" written all over this.


From: B.C. | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
BleedingHeart
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posted 25 June 2005 04:03 AM      Profile for BleedingHeart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jianadaren:
Fat kids who "couldn't cut it" were mocked and berated in front of their peers.

Sounds like phys ed class for me.


From: Kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bucanero
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posted 25 June 2005 04:06 AM      Profile for Bucanero     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cartman:

My understanding is that there still exists a lower minimum wage for youth (vs the minimum wage for adults) here in Alberta.


No, they got rid of that back in 1995 or so. $7 an hour applies to everyone.

Click


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 25 June 2005 04:30 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wouldn't patronize a business that used children in this way.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 25 June 2005 04:38 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
I wouldn't patronize a business that used children in this way.

You might not know if they're kept in the back as dishwashers, etc.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 25 June 2005 07:27 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Waitresses? From what I've seen, most 16 year olds have trouble getting hired as servers... if they start at that age, they are more likely to host(ess) or bus tables to begin with, and then become servers after they turn 18 so that they can handle drinks too.

I have mixed feelings about this... on the one hand, it's good to teach work ethic early, lest they become one of the many people my age who are barely entering the workforce and have already developed a keen sense of entitlement.

Perhaps it wouldn't be such a bad idea if there were stringent restrictions on what kind of jobs they can do. Even dishwashing can get fairly demanding when you're working in a restaurant doing a banquet for a couple hundred people. That being said, I don't see why younger people can't mop the floor and wipe down counters for a couple 4 hour shifts per weekend at the local fast food joint.


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Cartman
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posted 25 June 2005 11:28 AM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
No, they got rid of that back in 1995 or so. $7 an hour applies to everyone.

Thanx for setting that straight Bucanero.


From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 25 June 2005 11:29 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just as an observation:

Okay, everyone's outraged about this, and rightly so. But haven't some industries been immune from child-labour laws for a long time? I'm thinking here specifically of the entertainment industry, because I can turn on the TV any time I want and see child actors earning money. Plus, I don't think that those are simulacrums modeling kids' clothing in the Sears catalogue.

And to my knowlege there has never been a widepread movement to stop these industries from using kids. Is it considered acceptable because they generally pay more money than restaurants?

Anyway, just something I've always found a little inconsistent.

[ 25 June 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 25 June 2005 12:45 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But haven't some industries been immune from child-labour laws for a long time? I'm thinking here specifically of the entertainment industry, because I can turn on the TV any time I want and see child actors earning money.

There are quite strict laws concerning child actors. Specifically, their hours of work are controlled, and they must have a guardian on-set who may stop filming if it seems appropriate.

They must also have a tutor on set who provides education to any children working on a film.

That said, I do think that the relatively unstrenuous nature of the job has some importance.
My son was a child actor (now he's a grown-up one); and a typical day would involve perhaps twenty on-camera minutes.

The rest of the time he would be studying with the tutor, or relaxing in his trailer, equipped with videos, tv, radio, and an X-box.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 25 June 2005 01:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sheesh. I started part-time work at sixteen, and I thought that was good of me. Seriously, Gir: that not early enough for you for the learning of the "work ethic"?

(I was a cashier. I loved being a cashier, and I was very good at it. Still my favourite all-time job, except for the evil managers. Evil managers have been the bane of my existence ever since.)

Twelve-year-olds should be lying on a lawn somewhere, looking up at the summer clouds as they pass overhead and wondering -- about what makes clouds, about the other places those clouds will go, etc. Or they should be reading books. Or they should be sneaking out mum's copy of Peyton Place to share with their friends.

btw, could someone please define "busing" for me, as in to bus a table?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 25 June 2005 01:46 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
btw, could someone please define "busing" for me, as in to bus a table?


Doesn't it mean to clean the table off after the diners have left? Pick up the dishes, etc. At least that's what it meant on the one day I bussed tables twenty years ago.


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rinne
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posted 25 June 2005 02:03 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No doubt it is a good idea to provide them jobs so that they can shop, shop, shop and no reason they shouldn't start getting credit cards at 12 too, after all if they are working .....
From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 25 June 2005 02:36 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Damn right, acow. Let them have credit -- but don't forget, if they are working and earning, we want them paying taxes too.

But wait: if they're paying taxes, I guess they should be voting too. And if they're voting and paying taxes, then shouldn't they be enlisting as well? Twelve-year-olds in lots of other countries pick up guns and join armies -- why not our kids? That'll toughen 'em up.

But wait: if they're paying taxes and fighting in foreign lands and all, why can't they drink? Marry a cousin?

Man, I call this a slippery slope. Someone warn Ralph.


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beluga2
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posted 25 June 2005 02:59 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course, Premier-for-Life Klein is merely following in the footsteps of his forward-looking neighbour, Gordon Campbell -- though it looks like not even Ralph's changes go as far back towards Dickens as BC's have. We DO have a different minimum "training wage" ($6/hour) for the first 500 hours of work -- thus the famous "Six Bucks Sucks" slogan. (500 hours of training to flip a burger? Huh?)

Also: (we made Znet!)

quote:
Perhaps most frightening is the fact that the province has shifted from an investigations-based system of assessing the safety of workplaces employing children to a complaints-based system. All that means that not only do we expect a 12-year-old fixing the deep fryer at 2 a.m. to do so for six bucks an hour, but we expect her to assess the safety of her own workplace and, if she feels uncomfortable, we expect her to fill out the paper work to deal with it; perhaps she'll do so in between games of truth or dare and bouts of calling -- and then hanging up on - the boy she likes.

BC, I believe, currently has the most regressive child-labour laws in North America, and possibly in the entire industrialized world. Now it seems another domino (Alberta) has fallen, with hopefully many more to follow in the race to the bottom. Gordo must be proud.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Fishy
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posted 25 June 2005 04:38 PM      Profile for Mr. Fishy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's like this ladies and gentlemen:

The Alberta economy is so hot right now, there are labour shortages everywhere! Skilled labour, unskilled labour, you name it! 3% unemployment in areas. When unemployment is that low, its because people are picking and choosing there jobs.

If you can't get a job in Alberta there is something wrong. Help Wanted signs abound.

There are few options available in solving a labour shortage: expand the labour pool or immigration from outside the province.


From: somewhere cold and dry | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 25 June 2005 04:47 PM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
When unemployment is that low, its because people are picking and choosing there jobs.

OMG!! Workers getting to choose their jobs! What will happen next? Will employers have to pay more or provide better workplaces? Will they have to pay enough for people to make rent? Say it ain't so!! Ahh, that's better, get the kids to work, even minimum wage looks like a fortune to them.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 25 June 2005 07:28 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How can school compete with money? For many children a job will have more appeal than going to classes. This is an ever downward spiral that we need to resist.

[ 25 June 2005: Message edited by: a citizen of winnipeg ]


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 25 June 2005 10:46 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah... especially when almost everything on TV is telling them to buy, buy, buy...

Is there any federal legislation that could be legally used against this?


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Raos
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posted 25 June 2005 10:58 PM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Put all of this into perspective. Children as young as 12 could already work in food industry before, they just needed special permission. Now they just need a parent's permission. And and in other industries, like retail, they didn't need special permission, so it isn't exactly like a kid can now do work that they couldn't before, it's just easier for them to get a job in the food industry.

Now I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong, I really don't think kids that young should be working, but in reality, very little has changed with this.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Polly Brandybuck
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posted 25 June 2005 11:12 PM      Profile for Polly Brandybuck     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kids at twelve now are already conditioned to buy buy buy...perhaps its all that leisure time that could be spent looking up at the clouds but instead is spent parked day in and day out in front of the television being fed must haves and need to buys. At least if they get a job they can learn to pay for their own purchases, instead of relying on parental largesse and guilt gifts. My oldest son has worked since 11, mowing lawns, babysitting, shovelling snow...in truth, bussing tables would be a pleasant break for him. And really, with the economy the way it is here presently, it would surprise the hell out of me to learn that any 12 year old was forced to work - most business owners have trouble enticing 16 year olds to work, and that with starting wages of $10 per hour and up. I can't see the exploitation angle here. Maybe its different elsewhere in the province.
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Nam
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posted 28 June 2005 06:19 PM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bucanero:

No, they got rid of that back in 1995 or so. $7 an hour applies to everyone.

Click


Uh, $7.00/hour only kicks in September 1, after the summer is over.

As for the bigger questions this issue brings up, I'm amazed that in 2005 we are actually having this debate. Yes, yes, I know we are talking about Ralphland, but.... This is sad and so wrong.


From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
jianadaren
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posted 28 June 2005 08:45 PM      Profile for jianadaren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with you Nam. Why are we actually entertaining this seriously? Let me put it another way: are Albertans (not that such legislation wouldn't have supporters in other provinces) actually behind this? And, if so, why? I am sure that is has got Campbell to "athinkin'".
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Nam
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posted 28 June 2005 09:55 PM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One of the many strange things about this issue is it apparently came forward, and the regulations changed, without any input from anyone. The usual suspects like the the Food Services Associations etc. claim they did not ask for any changes - but I notice they are not saying the government should roll it back. Neither I nor any else I know heard any rumours about this change before it happened. Albertans from what I've seen in letters to the editors don't like the change, but don't seem outraged by it - at least not enough to get a groundswell going to repeal the change.
From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 29 June 2005 12:26 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Many other provinces have already 'stream lined' the process for hiring kids. Alberta is behind the times.

What makes me angry is that ten years ago Alberta had tougher child labour laws than BC with an NDP government.

No matter what government is in power the child labour laws are weak.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Fishy
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posted 06 July 2005 01:39 AM      Profile for Mr. Fishy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is nothing wrong with Ralphland.

We need more people out here to help grow and all ready humming economy. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone offering minimum wage out here for anything.


From: somewhere cold and dry | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eugene Plawiuk
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posted 07 July 2005 08:46 AM      Profile for Eugene Plawiuk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
yeah they pay ten cents above minimum wage.
From: Edmonton Alberta | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eugene Plawiuk
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posted 07 July 2005 08:53 AM      Profile for Eugene Plawiuk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ezra Le Rant defends child labour...really.
Decisions on young workers and sour gas deserve cheers

From: Edmonton Alberta | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 07 July 2005 11:21 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eugene Plawiuk:
yeah they pay ten cents above minimum wage.

Huh? Where are you seeing that? Obviously you haven't been looking for a job in Calgary. The unofficial minimum wage in Calgary appears to be about $8.50/hr when you look over help wanted ads.

If you offer minimum wage in Calgary's market you end up with no employees.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 07 July 2005 12:01 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's all run to Calgary then.

Where there's dangerous jobs doing hard labour going begging for 10 bucks an hour.

Or lots of part-time jobs without benefits that suck for the same coin. You want more than 15 hours a week? It pays less - but still isn't full time. Full-time jobs that suck pay even less.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 07 July 2005 12:48 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Full-time jobs that suck pay even less.

Keeping in mind that no experience, no education, and no particular skill is required in that job...


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scooter
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posted 07 July 2005 02:29 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Let's all run to Calgary then.

Full-time jobs that suck pay even less.



And it pays alot more than minimum wage.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 07 July 2005 04:43 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

Keeping in mind that no experience, no education, and no particular skill is required in that job...


....and a back & knees you can afford to ruin kneeling to polish rims and detail splashguards.

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 07 July 2005 04:45 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

And it pays alot more than minimum wage.

"alot" ???


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scooter
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posted 07 July 2005 05:11 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wouldn't pass up on a 35.5% pay increase.
From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 07 July 2005 05:12 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good math.
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scooter
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posted 07 July 2005 05:23 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The job you quoted pays $8.00, Alberta minimum wage is $5.90. How do you do your math?
From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 07 July 2005 06:31 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Really?
quote:
Originally posted by Bucanero:

No, they got rid of that back in 1995 or so. $7 an hour applies to everyone.

Click


Oh, I see. Ralphie and the boys announced an increase, then made sure no one would see it for a while.

$5.90 is disgusting, BTW, and Albertans should have been outraged about it. No one can live on such wages.

[ 07 July 2005: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 07 July 2005 08:41 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
$5.90 is disgusting, BTW, and Albertans should have been outraged about it. No one can live on such wages.

And come September 1, 2005 Alberta's minimum wage will be higher than Newfoundland ($6.00), New Brunswick ($6.30), Nova Scotia ($6.50), Saskatchewan ($6.65), and PEI ($6.80).

At least the BC NDP government was able to get the minimum wage up to $8.00 before the Liberals arrived. The Saskatchewan NDP government should be ashamed of themselves.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nam
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posted 08 July 2005 03:10 PM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The wage rate in Calgary is now being talked about in this thread and another. Yesterday, I had some time in the afternoon so I headed down Macleod Trail to check out some of those ads. The result was not unexpected.

First place - a food store offering "starting wages" at $8.50. They forget to mention on their billboard that a training wage of $7.00 applies, and I couldn't get a straight answer on how long until I would be considered trained.

Second place - a restuarant/bar needing help, paying "above average wages" according to the large, colourful sign. Further investigation reveals "above average wage" means minimum wage plus tips. Yes, could be well-paying, but some staff I snuck a chat with said my job would end with Stampede over.

Third place - a large chain drugstore, large sign saying "starting wages up to $11.00 plus benefits". Thinking I had hit the jackpot, found out in reality they weren't taking applications for anything except nighttime stock-shelving, paying $6.50 to start, no benefits, and probably only two shifts per week.

Fourth place - there was no fourth place as I headed back downtown, found an outdoor patio, had a cold beer, and thought about all the lying asshats would live in this city.


From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 08 July 2005 03:54 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nam:
The wage rate in Calgary is now being talked about in this thread and another. Yesterday, I had some time in the afternoon so I headed down Macleod Trail to check out some of those ads. The result was not unexpected.

Certainly the expected result for one afternoon of looking at a limited number of jobs none of which required much in the way of skills, education, or experience.

But then again, is it really reasonable to expect a starting wage of $19/hour with benefits for jobs that don't require any of the above?


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Coyote
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posted 08 July 2005 03:59 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:


At least the BC NDP government was able to get the minimum wage up to $8.00 before the Liberals arrived. The Saskatchewan NDP government should be ashamed of themselves.


Come again? The Sask. NDP gov't is raising the minimum wage, in three increments, to $7.95 (in a province with no where near the living costs of BC; in terms of spending power, that puts Sask.'s minimum wage earners far ahead of BC or Alta.). The SFL is pleased, so are poverty groups and community based organizations.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 08 July 2005 04:28 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

Certainly the expected result for one afternoon of looking at a limited number of jobs none of which required much in the way of skills, education, or experience.

But then again, is it really reasonable to expect a starting wage of $19/hour with benefits for jobs that don't require any of the above?


What it's reasonable to expect and what certain rah-rah types have been claiming are not necessarily the same thing. Nam didn't say he was surprised--he was saying that his anecdotal evidence contradicts the claims put forward with no evidence at all, that jobs are always $8.50 or more.
Now you may not have said that, in which case you might surmise that he's not arguing with you.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 08 July 2005 06:44 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rufus, I'm taking this discussion to the minimum wage in Calgary thread where it belongs.

So child labour laws...


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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