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Author Topic: Another family murder-suicide...
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 24 July 2003 10:54 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In a Montreal south shore suburb, a man killed his wife and two teens, then himself .
http://Montreal.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=qc_murdersuic20030724

From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 24 July 2003 01:47 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, another, 'if I can't have you no one else will either'.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 24 July 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

And I hate to bring politics into tragedy, but I have to say that I am not surprised that the guns being registered obviously did not help the situation.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Foxer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4251

posted 24 July 2003 10:31 PM      Profile for Foxer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sad but true gir.

There must be something that can be done. Is there no way to identify these 'family annilators' or whatever they're labled these days? There must be some way to deal with this kind of thing.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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Babbler # 3714

posted 24 July 2003 10:51 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There must be some way to deal with this kind of thing

Yeah, ban guns completely (except for police officers).

Let the flame war begin...


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 387

posted 25 July 2003 02:11 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In a case like this, if there hadn't been guns he would have used something else. There aren't enough safety factors for women and children who want to leave men that aren't willing to let them go. The problems likely didn't pop up suddenly, there's usually a long history behind family breakups.
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 25 July 2003 02:14 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yeah, ban guns completely

Ya! We banned drugs, and now nobody uses drugs anymore. Do the same with guns!


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Foxer
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posted 25 July 2003 03:10 AM      Profile for Foxer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sara! C'mon this is serious.

obviously the instrument isn't the problem. But i can't see what the solution is. Are we just going to have to accept that a percentage of people are going to be killed by their spouse when they break up with them?


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 25 July 2003 03:10 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
And I hate to bring politics into tragedy, but I have to say that I am not surprised that the guns being registered obviously did not help the situation.

Well, since you've brought politics into tragedy (despite how much you hated doing so), let me point out that this kind of incident nicely exposes the fallacy of a key anti-gun-control argument: that gun laws should be aimed at criminals and leave the "law-abiding gun owners" alone. The killer was apparently a hunter with an extensive gun collection, and would have probably fit the right's definition of a "law-abiding gun owner" -- until decided not to be.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 25 July 2003 10:30 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In a case like this, if there hadn't been guns he would have used something else.

Although not impossible, it is quite difficult to kill three persons using a weapon other than a gun. It certainly takes more planning, which means that there is a greater opportunity to think about consequences, than when one simply grabs the gun and blasts away.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 25 July 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nah, baseball bats, knives. A lot of things kill.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 25 July 2003 11:15 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
and would have probably fit the right's definition of a "law-abiding gun owner" -- until
decided not to be.

Isn't that kind of how it works? Don't people fit the definition of "innocent" until they decide not to be?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 25 July 2003 12:15 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Don't be

That was exactly my point: It's ridiculous to talk about trying to keep guns away from "criminals", while allowing unfettered access to everyone else. How do you identify the criminals before they become criminals?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 25 July 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Nah, baseball bats, knives. A lot of things kill.

But like someone else mentioned above, not as efficiently, not as instantly.

At least, had he chosen a knife or a bat, there would have been more struggle, and a slightly greater chance that the victims could have escaped, fought back, or only been injured, rather than killed.

Maybe. But I'd rather take that chance, I think.

Guns are stupid.


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freshie
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posted 25 July 2003 12:44 PM      Profile for Freshie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I read a story like this and I realize counsellors (and similar workers) are true heroes. I don't know how you can funnel people like this guy into a counsellors office so that the anger and rage can be safely eased..but that's the key, or at least one.

I went through a bad breakup and I was pretty angry, as is human nature (please don't try to suggest for one second that it's only men who are angry, hurt and betrayed when a love goes wrong). But I knew I didn't want to be like that, so I went to a counsellor. I know that I would never hurt anyone over a relationship, but let's face it you can get really down when this happens. I can honestly say talking to an objective wise voice really defused a lot of bad feelings and dramatically quickened the healing process; I could get on with my life and realize there is just as much happiness, joy and potential then as there ever was or would be.

Now, would that have worked with someone who lacked the tools to cope (to the point of murdering his family)? I don't know, but even a one percent chance is better than zero. Maybe instead of tax cuts so we can buy a new DVD we can as a society realize that problem solvers are to be valued (instead of downsized).


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 25 July 2003 12:45 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by clersal:
Yeah, another, 'if I can't have you no one else will either'.
It's horrific, no matter how you look at it. Men often identify their families so closely with themselves that when they become severely depressed and suicidal they cannot imagine leaving their families behind, to "cope" without them. So they kill them before killing themselves. Sometimes it's rage (how dare you leave me) and despair, sometimes it's retribution (I'll punish you for leaving me) and despair.

A person very close to me once confided that he'd had thoughts about killing his children and then himself. He said that his thought at the time was that he could not bear to leave them alone in a world filled with such bleak horror and despair(that was how he saw the world when he was suicidally depressed). Luckily he wasn't so far gone at the time that couldn't see how warped his perceptions were.

Gun control is an important issue, with some valid points on all sides. However, we have other threads devoted to gun control, and really, do you need to co-opt a thread in the feminist forum, one that should be focused on domestic violence and mental health, in order to score political points off each other?


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 25 July 2003 01:05 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
How do you identify the criminals before they become criminals?

We could certainly start with the people who already are criminals (at least those with any kind of assualt record), and if we really wanted to we could have a zero tolerance policy for use of a weapon in a crime, or carrying a weapon without a permit. If you pull someone over with a handgun in their glove compartment, there's your criminal.

Note that we also have no way of knowing who might or might not drive drunk, but there's not a whole lot of talk of banning cars outright. We also have the technology to make cars that are interconnected to a breathalyzer, and yet these aren't standard issue on a vehicle. We could, but we won't.

Which kills more people in Canada.. guns or cars?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Foxer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4251

posted 25 July 2003 02:55 PM      Profile for Foxer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anyone can become a criminal - and I'd remind you that the majority of spouses killed by their partners are NOT killed with guns.

The point is that we just spent 2 billion dollars tracking legal gun owners who are not any MORE likely to become a killer than YOU are and we harrass the ones who HAVEN'T done anything wrong - instead of worrying about actual criminals and dealing with people BEFORE they become murderers.

Did the registry help this woman?!? - Do you feel better now that she's dead at the hands of a man with a LICENSED gun?

People drink and drive and kill people that way, but yet you don't think that every car owner is a killer. Instead of blaming the ones who HAVEN'T been drinking and driving (althouth they COULD - get fired from work and go drown your sorrows.. etc) we launch programs to catch and punish the drunk drivers! And lo and behold, it goes down.

It's pretty low brow thinking and socially irresponsible to think of the gun as the 'culprit' in this case. "ugh! Gunz iz bad! umm me ban gunz solve social problems dat way". I assure you that a knife can be every bit as fatal and every bit as fast. And if the daughter didn't hear the gunshot, she sure wouldnt' hear the screams.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 387

posted 25 July 2003 11:25 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We need to insist that such things as divorce legislation have built in protection for abused people (sometimes the woman is the bad one though it's most often the man so focusing the legislation on the protection of women isn't wrong). We also have to find a way to educate people (again, men are the largest number of offenders) that their families are not their property to own or dispose of as they see fit and that partners have the right to leave. We need the police and courts to take every event of family violence seriously and at least have ways to try to stop it before it ever reaches the point of murder or near murder. We need to protect children from family violence, even if they aren't the victims but their parent is.
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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