quote:

---

In southern Helmand province, a combined police and U.S.-led coalition patrol came under attack with mortar, rocket-propelled grenade and small-arms fire. In the fight that ensued, "almost two dozen" insurgents were killed, it said.

No Afghan or coalition soldiers were killed, the statement said.

---

Perhaps I've missed it, but I've never seen the mainstream media question such reports, of which there are many - other than occasionally saying that reporters weren't allowed on the scene so they couldn't confirm the report, etc.

quote:

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Does anyone have an opinion on what is really going on here?

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Afghan News

Afghan Islamic Press

Afghanistan News

The Voice of Jihad

[ 01 September 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:
Here's a hint: Ever hear of... wait for it young one...sarcasm?

---

The Afghan National Police (ANP) are a paramilitary group and used as such.

The Afghan Border Police (ABP) are used more like western Police forces than the ANP however the ABP are used as soldiers when necessary.

There are often used as second line soldiers in support of the Afghan Natioal Army (ANA).

The first casuality in war is the truth!

The afghan president himself has made many speechs to do with coalition murder of civilians ..baby's ,woman ,children,,,innocent people.

Coalition troops bomb houses at night blowing up entire families..which contributes too afghans joining the taliban..10 to 1 ratio from a cbc report.

A month after that report they did it again because they saw a tali run into a house..they blow it up..entire famillies! To get one tali. Followed by yet another plee to stop killing innocenet babies ,women and children from the puppet president.

When tali's kill the coalition troop it's a cowardly ambush..how many times have you heard that???

When the coalition does its a heroic thing.How many times did you hear that???

So are they liars and murderers...you figure it out.It aint rocket science!

The media - there just puppets of the official line besides being in a conflict of intrest predicament..lest they lose there membership to the parliament club or the crtc fingers them and marks them for removal.

This is why places like rabble are so important...at the very least a Canadian can discuss what may or may not be happening. Especially when it's a matter of life and death.

Do some searchs on the internet for UN documents and nato study's that backup the killings and while yer at it do some research on depleted uranium and the toll it's taking on the children of both iraq and afghanistan...you will be shocked ... ethnic cleansing???and whats more is all the Canadian troops should start coming down with the effects pretty soon...it takes 6 years for the it to start turning up in there urine as it breaks down...So in effect the jokes on them..if they think they can kill for a $$$$ and get away with it.

The government comes out looking pretty smart too as they go to the lumpsum (pat on the back)war vet payment plan. The soldier comes out looking as dumb as a stick, or to pacify and cover it all up-a hero???

You will also note it's like trying to pull teeth to get politicians to visit the contaminated country and when they do they stay indoors providing a variety of excuses...if they do venture out ..it's after a rain storm so they don't breath in the dust!!! They know whats going on!

[ 01 September 2007: Message edited by: Buddy Kat ]

It is hard to say, I would say it involves the tactics being used by each side. The Taliban/Insurgent/Criminal elements do not want large scale battles because they can never win such a fight. NATO/ANSF does not want to get into a close quarter battle situation because of public opinion nightmares resulting in deaths and injuries of soldiers.

I would say most small scale battles are over in a matter of minutes, the enemy attacks us with RPGs and mortars and we responded with artillery and airpower. The results of the battles are usually done by causality estimates depending on the weapons used, very few bodies are recovered or discovered.

Most battles are conducted at stand off distances. The Afghans are not very good shots, they used the spray and pray method when in battles.

I do not trust the media at all especially the CBC. I am trying to find a Taliban website which reports about the attacks they conduct, they are the exacted opposite of western media, they report the number of foreign soldiers kills at no lost of their own.

quote:

---

The Afghan National Police (ANP) are a paramilitary group and used as such.

The Afghan Border Police (ABP) are used more like western Police forces than the ANP however the ABP are used as soldiers when necessary.

---

I am aware of that. I should have written: And it seems that the "police" described in the report are actually a paramilitary force.

I am not quite sure what your question is or the point you are trying to make?

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
It is hard to say, I would say it involves the tactics being used by each side. The Taliban/Insurgent/Criminal elements do not want large scale battles because ... I would say most small scale battles are over in a matter of minutes, the enemy attacks us with RPGs and ....

---

I just find it strange that Afghans once aided and abetted by the CIA through Pakistani ISI to fight against the Soviets, our allies during WWII, are now referred to as the "enemy" and "insurgents" and sometimes both. Just 20 years ago, western governments were telling us Afghanis were the good guys in a shootem up that cost U.S. taxpayers $5 dollars for each bullet supplied.

There is no reason to believe that this policy has changed.

As for "body counts", we know from the American experience in Vietnam how these figures are either inflated or invented from whole cloth.

The people at home, the media and the military supposes, are scoring it like a hockey game, and measure progress by the counts. Or so they think.

Could it be possible that Afghan rebels could take two dozen casualties while Canadian infantry took none? Confirmed reports from the Korean war suggest this not an unlikely scenario. And in Medak Pocket, it was confirmed that Canadian infantry killed 20 some odd Serbs in a fire fight without suffering any casualties.

"Taliban insurgents have re-occupied strategically important areas around the city of Kandahar, including ground won by Canadian forces in deadly, hard-fought battles last year, according to a report published Sunday in The New York Times."

quote:

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

The people at home, the media and the military supposes, are scoring it like a hockey game, and measure progress by the counts. Or so they think.

---

TASK FORCE MARNE SOLDIER DIED OF WOUNDS

You would thing they would report every death and injury, why cause a scandal at this stage of the war?

There were rumours that Soviet deaths and injuries during the 1980s were not reported accurately.

[ 02 September 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:

There were rumours that Soviet deaths and injuries during the 1980s were not reported accurately.

[ 02 September 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Alliances and friendships between nations and empires are always being forged and re-created to suit those in power. Today’s allies could be tomorrow’s enemies.

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That's putting a noble spin on it.

quote:

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If they die in transit to Germany or wherever for medical care, then I think those statistics are separated from official reports. Don't quote me, but I wouldn't put it past them.

---

The only shenanigans I am aware of through our media is the under reporting of the nature of the wounds our soldiers suffer. Thin details allow those who want to believe that soldiers wounded by I.E.D.'s might just have a hang nail, instead of loss of limbs or debilitating head trauma.

quote:

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"Taliban insurgents have re-occupied strategically important areas around the city of Kandahar,

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Are we to be surprised? This kind of war is a game of "whack a mole". We might look at this war as something far, far removed from the type of war fought in WWI, but it is very much a war of attrition. And the insurgency doesn't have to "win" in a military sense, they just have to last.

And while their conventional military tactics seem lacking by our standards, I tend to think that endurance is something Afghanis excel at.

Well, "Operation Elphinstone" continues.

-----

Along the lines of supporting our troops, I saw reports in American media that indicates many National Guard soldiers are returning from duty (arbitrarily and of questionable legality extended duty in many cases) to find they have been "fired" from their civilian jobs-- even though that is very illegal to do in the States.

quote:

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Originally posted by HUAC:
Webgear,

What do you think would happen if the "scumbags" had weaponry other than .303 Lee- Enfields and a handful of old Russian RPGs? For example: B1B, B2, B52, F15, F16, F117, AC130, helo gunships, APCs, MBTs, 155mm howitzers and supplemental artillery, laser and satellite guided targetting systems, Predator and Global Hawk UAVs and state of the art communications? Not to mention 2 or 3 Naval Carrier Battle Groups offshore at all times. Just for openers.
The "coalition" forces, or whatever horseshit name they're called, wouldn't last 2 minutes, including farcical creations like the ANP and ABP.

---

All they really needed to beat the Russians were surface to air missles..that's it and that's all.

The CBC used to show documentary's on the afghan mountain soldier when it suited them.....(during the cold war)...they showed the afghan fighter as the worlds best unbeatable warriors on the planet.

Because they know the mountain terrain and have been fighting wars for 100's of years they have an edge no soldier has. They live and breath war.

Just look at the damage they have caused with primitive weapons???? Can you just imagine what they would do to the "Bush puppet coward force
" if they had anything sophisticated. Gawd they can't even handle off road firecrackers!

The Russians warned the puppet masters...and they didn't listen...in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

People don't mind wasting their life for these clowns so whatever turns their crank. Nothing much we can do..the media and government pretty well can be blamed for de-educating the parents of these soldier and just maybe one day what goes around will come around, and smack them between the eyes and there is some kind of payback for the atrocity.

quote:

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Originally posted by Buddy Kat:

All they really needed to beat the Russians were surface to air missles..that's it and that's all.

The CBC used to show documentary's on the afghan mountain soldier when it suited them.....(during the cold war)...they showed the afghan fighter as the worlds best unbeatable warriors on the planet.

Because they know the mountain terrain and have been fighting wars for 100's of years they have an edge no soldier has. They live and breath war.

Just look at the damage they have caused with primitive weapons???? Can you just imagine what they would do to the "Bush puppet coward force
" if they had anything sophisticated. Gawd they can't even handle off road firecrackers!

The Russians warned the puppet masters...and they didn't listen...in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

People don't mind wasting their life for these clowns so whatever turns their crank. Nothing much we can do..the media and government pretty well can be blamed for de-educating the parents of these soldier and just maybe one day what goes around will come around, and smack them between the eyes and there is some kind of payback for the atrocity.

3000 centrifuges says sooner rather than later!

---

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
You are comparing two difference events against each other. The Afghan fighters of today are not fighting the ill equipped and ill trained forces of the 40th Combine Arms Army of the Soviet Union.

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

---

How about you provide some evidence that the Soviet military was prepared and equipped for the war in Afghanistan?

How about you try backing up your statement. LOL

PS I will add this icon for you.

Afghans later blew these out of the sky...resulting in the russians placing there tails between there legs and doing the "cut and run".

http://www.c00lstuff.com/768/Russian_Mi_24_Hind_demo_flight/

I'd supply an icon but they don't have one of a person with a paper bag over their head.

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Buddy Kat ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Propaganda? Have you ever read the lessons learned from the Soviet military in Afghanistan?

How about you provide some evidence that the Soviet military was prepared and equipped for the war in Afghanistan?

How about you try backing up your statement. LOL

PS I will add this icon for you.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Highest tech militaries in the world battled low tech jungle warriors in Vietnam. Imperialists discovered that a ten thousand day war was no match for a culture several thousand years older than their own.

Cuttin and runnin from Ho Chi Minh City(Saigon) 1975

---

The problem is that the guerrillas have yet to show any evidence that they have access to the technology which they had access to back in the Soviet invasion.

How about you try responding to my questions?

The Taliban have been using man portable anti-aircraft missiles, to little or no effect. The BBC reported about the Taliban using Chinese NH-5s systems in Helmand Province.

[Edited by Michelle to change redflag's name]

[ 22 June 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
kropotkin1951

How about you try responding to my questions?

It does not matter if I am an invader or liberator. The fact is the Soviets lost Afghanistan due to poor training and ill equipped forces.

---

The Soviets could have won the war in Afghanistan if it was not for their constant blundering such as not properly equipping soldiers for mountain warfare, not updating their tactics, and the poor choice of ill disciplined units that they deployed into the war after 1981.

In many ways they made the same mistakes in Chechnya.

At this moment in time the vast majority of Afghans are not fighting NATO nor do they want to. 30 out of 34 provinces are relativity clam and peaceful, the Afghan people want peace and they understand that NATO can provide the stability they desire.

True American air strikes are likely causing more harm than good however if they were limited there would be more peace.

Afghanistan is a battle of willpower and moral convictions, Russia lost the willpower to continue the fight.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
kropotkin1951

The Soviets could have won the war in Afghanistan if it was not for their constant blundering such as not properly equipping soldiers for mountain warfare, not updating their tactics, and the poor choice of ill disciplined units that they deployed into the war after 1981.

---

I appreciate your points, Webgear, but I beg to differ. No amount of Monday morning armchair quarterbacking can change a fundamental truth. The Soviets were in Afghanistan to impose a regime and a system of government which the Afghan people had rejected.

The Afghan people have never shown much interest in foreign benefactors. They have, rather, shown their readiness to fight and die to safeguard their land and their traditions, no matter how "quaint" they may appear to oh-so-"superior" Soviets, Americans, Brits, and others.

quote:

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Originally posted by redflag:
I honestly and truly believe that once the Afghans get their hands on reliable man portable anti air craft missiles that this whole adventure is over.

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There was a CBC mini-documentary news report last summer which showed Taliban somewhere along Khyber pass firing a shoulder rocket at a U.S. patrol plane. The recon plane left the area in a pretty big hurry.

A Scottish news reporter claims to have interviewed a former Taliban government finance official. He suggested Taliban are just as well funded today as they were when the CIA were funding them and mentioned several surrounding Arab nations and Russia as probable sources. I think most of the Stani nations as well as Russia and China, Iran and probably India don't want NATO in their backyards

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

[Edited by Michelle to change redflag's name]

[ 22 June 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

When they decide to end the war it will end..with nato and canada sticking it's tail between it's legs and doing the cowardly "cut and run".. Don't worry about the US ..Iran will take care of them.

When pakistan gets taken over by the osahmoites (sp)they will have nukes..then watch them cut and run bigtime...shit they may actually fight back and launch a missle ...across the atlantic...then what?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:
The Taliban have been using man portable anti-aircraft missiles, to little or no effect. The BBC reported about the Taliban using Chinese NH-5s systems in Helmand Province.

---

A day after the British Press tells us about how the SAS had to destroy one of it's own Aircraft without explaining why it made the hard landing, reports are coming from the Chinese government that they are not supplying the Taliban with AA equipment.

£50m Hercules blown up

Afghan government denies China supplies weapons to Taliban

Further investigation seems to confirm my long held theory that Iran is the one who is peddling the weapons for the Taliban.

Chinese weapons reaching Taleban

In the past, I blogged about this topic and wondered aloud why Iran isn't more actively involved in more proxy operations in Afghanistan, but it's now starting to appear as if they've been there all along to varying degrees, it's just that we're only now hearing about it because they're starting to get a bit more brazen about their activities there.

quote:

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Blame Iran for everything they are part of the axis of evil after all.

So what do you think should we nuke them or just do a shock and awe on them?

---

Oh shock and awe for sure. We need to create as many anti-occupation insurgents after the fact as possible to keep the thing going while we soak taxpayers to the tune of several hundred billion dollars. How else could be go about warfiteering capitalizing on deliberate CIA fuckups of 30 and 40 years ago?.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Blame Iran for everything they are part of the axis of evil after all.

So what do you think should we nuke them or just do a shock and awe on them?

---

I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, but your pointing the cannon in the wrong direction if that's the case.

I have no doubt the Iranians are supporting Iraqis fighting the US occupation. That is not parroting Washington's line but acknowledging that Iran has an interest, right now, in keeping the US bogged down in Iraq.

In fact, I am not sure why the Iranians even deny it. Iran should only point to the many precedents established by the US and cite Iranian security interests. What can the US say? I think nations like Iran do themselves more harm than good by denying actions the US itself engages in.

quote:

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TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - The president of Iran again lashed out at Israel on Friday and said it was "heading toward annihilation," just days after Tehran raised fears about its nuclear activities by saying it successfully enriched uranium for the first time.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called Israel a "permanent threat" to the Middle East that will "soon" be liberated. He also appeared to again question whether the Holocaust really happened.

"Like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation," Ahmadinejad said at the opening of a conference in support of the Palestinians. "The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Comments like that are just plain, sorry, but stupid. Israeli and US politicians have openly called for nuking Iran. Are they carrying out Hitler's work also? Or are holocausts committed against Persians permissible in your world?

---

When Iran makes threats it has not the means to deliver on them. The US and Israel do and they have demonstrated no concern for Islamic lives.

Israel and the US have nuclear weapons. So who is the threat?

Step away from your propaganda for a while and study the real world.

Imagine you are Iran with two belligerent, militaristic, war-like powers snarling and snapping at you. Would you want a nuke?

Sure you would. But amazingly, and do pay attention here as this is very important, unlike the US and Israel, Iran has broken no international laws. Not even the NPT. And yet, they are the bad guys. Explain to me how that is?

No doubt you side with gangsters over honest shopkeepers.

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Solidarity4Ever: They are calling for the nuking of Iran because Iran called for the annihilation of Israel. Tit for tat. But something that Iran started. Also something in Iran's power to end by quitting its quest for a nuclear bomb.

---

Arguments about "who started it" like this one are more useful to convince small children than adults. Besides which, you're making reference to a deliberate mis-quote by pro-Israeli and pro-US propagandists. This is a well established fact that can be verified by a simple Google search.

Iran is perfectly entitled to develop nuclear power and the lower levels of enrichment that it requires. Unless the US and Israel stop their barbaric sabre-rattling and open plans of slaughter of Iranians, the Iranian regime would be well advised to keep going as well.

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

quote:

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Solidarity4Ever: ... even that guy who claimed to have worked on the Israeli nuke program was proven to be a total fraud.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:
There's no proof that Israel has nuclear weapons. They've never admitted it, no one has ever seen an Israeili nuke test, no pictures, even that guy who claimed to have worked on the Israeili nuke program was proven to be a total fraud.

---

That of course explains why Israel has never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, while Iran has.

By the way, don't think you're fooling anyone. You don't think I recognize you?? You and I both worked at Dimona in the mid-1980s, until you were fired for f***ing the dog and then there was that wildcat you led where you had everyone singing Solidarity4Ever...

Unluckily for you, I still have the file on that grievance - which I won, but you had already accepted that posting in Islamabad. Anyway, you say there's "no pictures", LOL, well what about this one from the file of you and me inspecting that uranium enrichment hopper?

I could pull up some powerful documentary testimony for you. For example, the chief UN arms inspector responding, when questioned about US pressure on Iran, said, "Careful! If we turn up the heat too high the pot could explode around our ears," while explaining that Iran is working with his team.

I can point you to an Oxford Research Group document that warned against a US strike on Iran for strategic reasons. The same research group predicted the results in Iraq.

But I have a better argument. We live in a capitalist society that puts personal, selfish interest as the determinate guiding principle of our society and civilization. We have been educated, inculcated, to believe and accept, and I do, that by injecting altruism into it, we ruin it.

I want you to be a good capitalist and put your own best interests first. And let me tell you, either as a combatant or a civilian, war is not in your best interests. In fact, it is downright detrimental.

I don't need to go far to provide you with evidence. No further than a new browser tab, anyway.

quote:

---

As they cut away his blood-sodden bandages in the trauma ward they found that all four limbs had either been severed or were attached by little more than skin. He had 70 per cent burns to what was left of his body.

They worked frantically to keep him alive. All his remaining limbs were amputated except for the top of one arm. Within hours he was air-borne again – this time bound for Germany and an onward flight to the Brooke Army Medical Centre in Texas.

There, some time soon, he will wake to realise that life as he knew it is over.

---

From there, it gets worse.

Why would you inflict such barbaric violence on yourself or your family? Where is the profit? And if you wouldn't, why would you inflict it upon someone else and his or her family? Where is the profit?

Is it national? Religious? Racial? All of those things will demand your life but none of them can or did give it to you.

A greater calling? What can be a greater calling then the human quest for peace?

If you want to take a side, watch or play hockey. When it comes to the politics of war, be the best damned capitalist you can be.

[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:
There's no proof that Israel has nuclear weapons. They've never admitted it, no one has ever seen an Israeili nuke test, no pictures, even that guy who claimed to have worked on the Israeili nuke program was proven to be a total fraud.

---

Say What!!

"Which country in the Middle East has undeclared nuclear weapons...undeclared biological and chemical weapons... and no outside inspection?

Israel's weapons of mass destruction: how they use them and how they keep the fact of their existence from the world."

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/13.html

Knock yourself out and while yer at it check out some documentary's

"Chinese HN-5 anti-aircraft missiles are with the Taliban, we know this... and we are worried where the Taliban gets them. Some of these weapons have been made recently in Chinese factories."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070912/weapons_china_070912/20070912?hub=TopStories

"Cut and run" time??

Here is some info on the type of anti aircraft missles:

Max. Range 5,500 meters
Min. Range 500 meters
Max. Altitude 4,500 meters
Min. Altitude 18 meters
Length (m) 1.40
Diameter (mm) 70
Weight (kg) 9.97
Missile Speed (m/s) 580

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
My remark was based on the fact that you had no facts cited and are parroting a Washington line.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by redflag:

To be fair, I cited three articles. Those all contain some reference to Iran which is easily understandable and logical. I think your being unreasonable if you really want to discount any theory about how the Afghans are helping to liberate themselves if you automatically discount anything which mentions references which are not pro-Iran.

---

Well, the Iranian regime and the Taliban were extremely hostile to each other for a long time - the Taliban killed a bunch of Iranian diplomats, among other things. I have trouble imagining they'd be friends.

[Edited by Michelle to change redflag's name]

[ 22 June 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by arborman:

Well, the Iranian regime and the Taliban were extremely hostile to each other for a long time - the Taliban killed a bunch of Iranian diplomats, among other things. I have trouble imagining they'd be friends.

---

And NATO turned their backs on the carnage from 1989 to late 90's as their proxies tore Afghanistan apart from stern to stem. Millions of Afghan refugees are still living in the stani nations, Europe and North America today as a result. And when it comes time to pull troops out of Afghanistan, we can bet Karzai won't suffer the same fate as Najibullah. He'll be able to seek asylum at the nearest UN office and be whisked away in a scene reminiscent of an evacuation of Saigon in 1975.

And reminiscent of a covert evacuation of Taliban and several promininet al Qaeda leaders from Afghanistan as the "Northern Alliance" was about to overrun them.

And the warfiteers will laugh their fat heads off all the way to the bank. FUBAR is what drives their agenda at KAOS headquarters.

[ 15 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]