The original philosphy of any religion grows out of the life - the economy, work, family structure and environment - of the people who embrace it. The earliest ones were invented by hunting-gathering peoples, and tended to be egalitarian. In the early creation myths, there was usually an original pair of male and female humans with equal, if different, powers, virtues and weaknesses: they were complementary and essential to each other. The religions which grew up around these progenitors were usually about balance between humans and nature: not particularly sexist or sexual.

Early agrarian cultures based their religions on seasonal cycles (surprise!) where male and female elements both played an important part - but the institutions which evolved from these religions tended to center on the ownership of land. It could still go either way: in some societies, women owned the land and inheritance was through the maternal line; therefore, women wielded much power.

The bad, sexist, destructive kind of religion doesn't come along until complex building and trading civilizations. These have already established land-ownership through the paternal line and vested most of the power in males. This is when we start seeng angry, petulant, jealous gods. Not because they're male, but because they're acquisitive. Capitalism creates nasty gods.

Here comes the irony. Complex civilizations give rise to patriarchal, persnickety, punishing religions, usually invented by men. As long as a new religion is marginal, maybe persecuted, it has both male and female adherents, but mostly male champions. Once it becomes institutionalized (that is: when the job of high priest is well paid and carries status and influence), its leaders are male. But the majority of its supporters are female! It's the mothers who drag the kids to church; it's the mothers who enforce the commandments in the home. Women support established religion, even if the religion reviles them, renders them powerless, blames them for original sin.

Why? Because, once a religion is institutionalized, it is a stabilizing force in society. Women tend to support whatever holds civilization together, whatever makes life predictable, whatever holds a promise of security for their children.

Read Timothy Findlay's Not Wanted on the Voyage. But not on the subway.

[ 08 June 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

quote:

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Originally posted by nonesuch:

Why? Because, once a religion is institutionalized, it is a stabilizing force in society. Women tend to support whatever holds civilization together, whatever makes life predictable, whatever holds a promise of security for their children.

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I agree. This happens in most religions of today. For instance, I have a young friend in Iran (she is 15 yrs old). Her parents were young (early 20's) when the Shah was overthrown in '79... The change to fundamental Islam was very hard for the father but the mother accepted it with open arms... she was only doing her best to protect her childrens' spriritual health...

My young friend has a dream of coming to Canada to study once she finishes high school in a couple of years... Her parents want a better life for her... as it is currently, she is very lucky to be found to be "a brilliant student" and therefor "allowed" to continue her schooling. I pray that she is able to come to Canada.

And all that crap about sexual modesty and repression has really messed a lot of women up. Coupled with the ancient ideas about birth control and abortion, women in religious communities have historically had very little control over their own bodies, and I think this still holds true today. It's messed up.

Nothing makes me more sad and frustrated than watching perfectly capable women subject themselves to the condescension and golden cages of the men in their faith communities.

quote:

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Originally posted by nonesuch:

Read Timothy Findlay's Not Wanted on the Voyage. But not on the subway.

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[ 12 June 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

I myself am a Christian. I spent some time in a very patriarchal church - but eventually, upon discovering christian feminism, I left.

(I'm not the only one lately who has become disillusioned because of this political swing, so I don't think it's just me.)

Hi Michelle! Nice to hear from you. I am a denominationally undefined animal with Baptist, Presbyterian, and Messianic Jewish sympathies. : ) As for the move to
the left, I recall a conversation I had with Barbarah B., a Baptist Pastor in Toronto (she used to pastor Woodbine Baptist church at the time). She said that she felt
very sad and concerned about the major shift to the right that her denomination experienced.

***** I'm not the only one lately who has become disillusioned because of this political swing, so I don't think it's just me.)****

I personally do not keep up with all the 'Christendumb politics' - but I of course am familiar (in passing) with the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC... and their
dropping of the 'priesthood of believer clause' in favor of the female enslavement...uh, gracious submissiveness of wives to husbands :-) I was very disappointed -
competency of soul before God was a major part of the Baptist philosophy for a long time.

*****Anyhow, I'd just join a progressive church the way you have as an alternative, but the truth is, I don't really believe what you need to believe in order to be a
member of a church, so I stay away.*****

Amen to that. I spent over 2 years away from church. From time to time, I was bugged by people about going back - "What would Jesus do?" I just about replied
like Mark Twain once said, "Jesus most certainly would not have become a Christian..." but being a good girl that I am, I bit my tongue. o:-)

**** Too bad, really - life was a lot more comfortable when I had the answer to life, the universe, and everything. ****

Hmmmmm... well, we'll leave it to Falwell and Dobson to have all the answers. : Their 'answers' are far more entertaining than "Fraiser" and "Married with Children"
combined :-)

[ 25 June 2003: Message edited by: Cynicalico ]

quote:

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Originally posted by paxamillion:

I believe that the historical Jesus was far more inclusive of women than many churches are today. Unfortunately, when the church becomes focuses on power and politics (instead of love and grace), repression and exclusion tends to be the result. Sad but true.

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Yes, yes, yes....

The 'original Jesus'/NT Jesus:
- spoke to women as persons
- allowed them to touch him
- permitted women to follow him on his journeys
- insisted that learning is more important for a woman than housework
- affirmed women as active participants in life, rather than babymaking machines
- send women to address his apostles upon His ressurection, effectively making them 'apostles to the apostles'

the Christian church today -
- talks down to women
- does not allow women to touch the Eucharist host/body of Christ
- teaches, in a kindly patronizing way that woman's place is at home, in safety (hmmm... isn't a significant percentage of spousal rapes and beatings occuring IN homes??? some safety!)
- insists that education for women is not neccessary since it creates a very wrong 'independent spirit' (oh, the horror!)
- DEFINES femininity by motherhood and childcare
- Tells women to 'sit down and shut up' (courtesy of Chuck Swindollon this year's Mother's day sermon).

I just realized - if Jesus were to come back tomorrow, and start his own church, he would not be allowed to join the Southern Baptist convention for his stance on women's issues!!!

: )

quote:

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
Very true for SOME Churches, but don't paint all of them with thew same brush.

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I was in a very enlightened parish, where the women had a lot of power and responsibility in the church. We have had numerous female preists.

My parish was among the first in the diocese to incorporate inclusive language into liturgy. In any of the prayers, you will regularly hear people, replace the word father for "creator" etc.

Womens healing circles were formed a few years ago and have also really strengthened the feminist community in the church.

I realize that there are a lot of Christian churches that are oppressive to women. However, there are also those that do the opposite.

In my own experience as a Christian, and an Anglican, I have found faith to be very empowering for women, uplifting us, creating networks and bonds that through our shared spitituality.

quote:

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Hi Michelle! Nice to hear from you. I am a denominationally undefined animal with Baptist, Presbyterian, and Messianic Jewish sympathies

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Since the war and my own self-exploration I have moved decidedly to the left but within my Judaism.

So I have met Jews from all religious backrounds.

To me your term "Messianic Jews" refers to the followers of the late Chassidik leader, Rabbi Menachem Schneerson. But reading your other posts this surely cannot be what you mean.

But when I've heard of Messianic Jews, they are generally Christians, of Jewish descent somewhere in their family tree, who desire to hang on to their Jewish traditions and identity although they have converted to Christianity and believe in Jesus as the Son of God - thus the Messianic Jew thing.

One organization associated with Messianic Jews is "Jews for Jesus" - and most Jews I've heard who have talked about this organization are really quite resentful of them. It's a very evangelical and fundamentalist group, from what I remember, and basically its raison d'etre is converting Jews, or "saving" Jews. You can see why this paternalism might be rather offensive.

Some people even go as far as to consider Messianic Judaism as represented by groups like Jews for Jesus and Jewish Voice as cultish in tone. I don't know if I'd go that far, well at least not inasmuch as any religion is a cult if you want to look at it that way. But I can see where extremely evangelistic organizations that target one demographic group in society (e.g. Muslims, Jews, Gays, etc.) can be very distasteful. Especially to a religion such as Judaism, where they don't really have a tradition of badgering people into converting to their faith.

Here is another Messianic Jewish organization called Menorah Ministries. Since that last link I gave you was to a web site that basically has the slant that Messianic Judaism is a cult, I thought I would give you this latter link from the point of view of the proponents of the religion. You can judge for yourself.

You might also want to look up Jews for Jesus and Jewish Voice on google, and you'll find more information.

i believe so-called "Messianic Judaism" is a fraud. Their claim that you can remain Jewish and accept Jesus as the messiah is Judaically inconsistant and religiously absurd.

Christianity is NOT Judaism. Indeed the reason the two religions are different center around the fact that Jews do NOT accept that Jesus was the messiah. PERIOD.

For more information on this issue I refer you to the following website:

Jews for Judaism

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

It is fair to say that within much of the Coservative-Reform/Reconstructionist movements women play an equal role to that of men in all aspects from the Rabbinate to religious observation and participation.

The orthodox maintain a more traditional reading of Jewish law and are far less egalitarian. Women cannot become Rabbis or fully participate in religious service. According to orthodox doctrine men and women have specific and different responsibilities in judaism. Women are in charge of the family and income ensuring that the home functions properly. As a result she is exempted from relgious duties. Men on the other hand have as their responsibility the spiritual side of things.

You are correct about "Messianic Judaism" being basically a version of Christianity faith. Messianic Judaism is as diverse as you can imagine. Some "Messianic Jews" are those who join the movement in appreciation of the Hebraic roots of Christianity.

Some Messianic Jews are Jewish by nationality, and even though they have embraced Yeshua as the Messiah, they still observe all of the Torah and many of the current rabbinical traditions as well.

I have mixed feelings about Jews for Jesus. Some of their publications are good, in my opinion. Some of their behaviors are not so good - and people say that their missionaries/workers can be very intrusive in personal lives (which I do not like). However, I haven't had enough 'insider' contact with the organization to form a firm opinion.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mishei:
Michelle:

i believe so-called "Messianic Judaism" is a fraud. Their claim that you can remain Jewish and accept Jesus as the messiah is Judaically inconsistant and religiously absurd.

Christianity is NOT Judaism. Indeed the reason the two religions are different center around the fact that Jews do NOT accept that Jesus was the messiah. PERIOD.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

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This argument deliberately confuses the two 'types' of Jewishness, by ethnicity and by religion.

If you are an ethnic Jew, you will be an ethnic Jew no matter WHAT religion you embrace - Roman Catholicism, Messianic Judaism, Zen Buddism, or atheism.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

But I can see where extremely evangelistic organizations that target one demographic group in society (e.g. Muslims, Jews, Gays, etc.) can be very distasteful.

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I think the big problem is about *HOW* such evangelism is conducted. For example, if such ministry acknowledges the society's and church mistreatment of gays, and stops trying to turn gays into heterosexuals at the moment of their conversion, I'll applaud it. I am yet to see such a ministry.

Also, I find that "Messianic Judaism" has some good potentials to it. It was useful to me in the following areas:

- it helped me appreciate the Jewish roots of Christianity and Jewishness of Jesus

- it helped me gain new insight into parables of Jesus and cultural context of the New Testament, thus helping me understand His teachings better

- it presented me with a culturaly relevant message, helping me to take ownership of "my" Christianity. The "original" Christianity was quite Jewish - so Jewish that gentiles often felt out of place in the church. Now the tables are turned, sadly. Messianic Judaism gives a Jewish person who is a Christian the 'handles' on how to own their Christian faith, so to speak.

- It helped me understand that antisemitism (like sexism, racism, bigotry of any kind) is not SUPPOSED to be a part of the Christian faith - it is a perversion of Christianty.

- Finally, it made me more sensitive to antisemitism in Christian churches, and Christian writings, and equipped me to combat it.

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Cynicalico ]

So I doubt I'd go as far as to say that Messianic Judaism is "fraudulent". It's an offshoot, or perhaps a combining of two faiths, but I wouldn't consider them any more fraudulent than, say, Mormons are fraudulent Christians. And yet there are a lot of mainstream Christians who are quite offended at the thought of Mormons calling themselves Christians since their theology is so incredibly different as to make it almost unrecognizable to the central tenets of the Christian faith. But they figure that since they share our scriptures in common, they are Christians. Who am I to say they're not?

I see a parallel with Judaism and Christianity. Christianity comes directly from Judaism, although personally I think it's likely that the metaphysical beliefs of Christians today are very different from the beliefs of the Christians of New Testament times. Christians in the New Testament did seem to be categorized as Jewish Christians or Gentile Christians, so I can see where the logic comes in with the Messianic Judaism thing. Jesus and his followers were Jews and they celebrated all the Jewish holidays. Of course, he was a bit of a radical in that he was pretty relaxed about the laws - but then, aren't Reform Jews these days pretty relaxed about performing every aspect of the law too?

Anyhow, I can really see Mishei's concern about the way Messianic Judaism is presented to potential Jewish converts. If a central aspect of, say, Reform Judaism, is that Jesus Christ was a great teacher but not the son of God or divine, then I can see where it is misleading to tell a Reform Jew, "Hey, you can still be Jewish, AND you can be Christian as well!" because actually, you can't be Jewish as the Reform Jew is Jewish and worship Jesus Christ as God.

I don't really have a problem with the use of the term "Messianic Jew" as long as it is made very clear that there is a difference.

I have to say one thing, though, Mishei. After having read through that Jews for Judaism link, particularly the testimonials, a lot of it sounded pretty dogmatic to me, as dogmatic as stuff I might hear in some churches. There was a bit of an insular flavour I noticed, that you often see in fundamentalist religions like Mormonism or the more strict evangelical sects.

quote:

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So I doubt I'd go as far as to say that Messianic Judaism is "fraudulent". It's an offshoot, or perhaps a combining of two faiths, but I wouldn't consider them any more fraudulent than, say, Mormons are fraudulent Christians. And yet there are a lot of mainstream Christians who are quite offended at the thought of Mormons calling themselves Christians since their theology is so incredibly different as to make it almost unrecognizable to the central tenets of the Christian faith. But they figure that since they share our scriptures in common, they are Christians. Who am I to say they're not?

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In Judaism Jesus IS NOT THE MESSIAH.. It is Jewish religious authorities who decide "who is a Jew" and no matter the differences between Orthodox and Reform all agree that the acceptance of Jesus as messiah means that person has chosen Christianity.

My God (excuse the pun) Michelle why would there be a need for Christianity if a Jew is a Christian? Not only is it illogical it is a total bastardization of both religions.

In that way for a Christian to make such a claim (or a Jew for that matter)it is patently false. "Jews for Jesus" know this but will use any means available to convert Jews. Even dishonest ones.

The bottom line..it is us Jews who define Judaism not Christians. I would never deem it appropriate to tell my Christian friends what Christianity is , I would ask for the same in return.

Jesus is the Messiah for Christianity. Any Jew who accepts Jesus has rejected his faith. All I ask is that person show the courage of his convictions and call himself properly by his newly adopted religion...a Christian.

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

I also agree with you that it is Jews who should be defining what Jewish is, and not Christians.

I certainly didn't mean to upset you on this, Mishei, I understand your point. I agree that Messianic Jews are Christians. In fact, I also wonder what the point is of there even being a "Christian" category if people can just say, "Well, I believe in Jesus, but that just makes me a Jew that believes in Jesus." It makes me think, "No, that makes you a former Jew who has now become a Christian."

It does make me wonder though - for instance, there are huge theological differences between Mormons and mainstream Christians, Mishei. Mormonism is unbelievably different in their metaphysical views. I mean, they think that when they die, they each get a planet to run just like Jesus runs the Earth.

Are they "Christians"? Many religious Christians I know would say no, and are quite offended that Mormons call themselves Christians. I used to feel the same way. Would you be willing, Mishei, to tell a Mormon that they're not a Christian even though they believe themselves to be one? I feel the same way about telling a "Messianic Jew" that their Jewish identity is not legitimate. Maybe if I were Jewish, I might have more justification for saying so, I don't know.

Anyhow, it's an issue that is confusing for me. I do find the tactics of targeting Jews for conversion distasteful, as I say. But who am I to tell a Jew who has converted to Christianity but who still practices Jewish customs that he isn't Jewish? I don't know.

Mishei, I certainly agree about the question of Jesus not being the Messiah for Jews. In that sense early Judeo-Christians were Christians, though culturally Jewish.

quote:

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Originally posted by paxamillion:
But you are defining what makes a Christian in your post, Mishei. As a Christian, I believe Jesus to be much more than the historical Messiah.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Oh Mishei, I agree with you, and I think "Messianic Jew" is kind of a strange name.

I also agree with you that it is Jews who should be defining what Jewish is, and not Christians.

I certainly didn't mean to upset you on this, Mishei, I understand your point. I agree that Messianic Jews are Christians. In fact, I also wonder what the point is of there even being a "Christian" category if people can just say, "Well, I believe in Jesus, but that just makes me a Jew that believes in Jesus." It makes me think, "No, that makes you a former Jew who has now become a Christian."

It does make me wonder though - for instance, there are huge theological differences between Mormons and mainstream Christians, Mishei. Mormonism is unbelievably different in their metaphysical views. I mean, they think that when they die, they each get a planet to run just like Jesus runs the Earth.

Are they "Christians"? Many religious Christians I know would say no, and are quite offended that Mormons call themselves Christians. I used to feel the same way. Would you be willing, Mishei, to tell a Mormon that they're not a Christian even though they believe themselves to be one? I feel the same way about telling a "Messianic Jew" that their Jewish identity is not legitimate. Maybe if I were Jewish, I might have more justification for saying so, I don't know.

Anyhow, it's an issue that is confusing for me. I do find the tactics of targeting Jews for conversion distasteful, as I say. But who am I to tell a Jew who has converted to Christianity but who still practices Jewish customs that he isn't Jewish? I don't know.

So don't take it as me telling you what Jewish is, Mishei, I would never presume to do that. I was just thinking through possible reasons why people might identify that way, that's all.

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As for the Mormans, well I dont know enough about their belief system to get into it. I suppose there are many off-shoots of Christianity with basic core beliefs. However I just dont know enough.

Judaism is a different matter. You seem to grasp the bottom line, that being , you simply cannot be a Jew and Christian at the same time. They are totally antithetical with the only common thread being the Hebrew Cannon.

From there and certainly from the time of Saul of Tauras (St. Paul) it became clear that there was a split that became so pronounced that Jews became demonized throughout the centuries for their refusal to accept Christ as the messiah. Indeed historians trace the roots of murderous antisemitism back to this ultimate cause.

Jews react viscerally when it comes to "Hebrew Christian" religious fraud artists for a host of reasons not the least of which is history.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
But then, how do you differentiate between a Christian who practices mainstream Christianity, and a so-called "Jewish Christian" who practices all the Jewish holidays and laws, but also believes in Jesus? How do you differentiate between the two? Because they are undeniably different.

Is it just the name that is the problem?

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Frankly, I have met a number of these so-called "Messianic Jews". Many (at least the Jews who are now Christians in my books) seem almost brainwashed into believeing. The Christians who now call themselves Jews are plain being silly. Have they converted according to
Jewish law. Have the men been Bar-Mitzvahed? I am sure that if they truly believe in the edicts of the Torah those that are not circumsised have had circumsisions..ask them. Do they keep kosher?

Sheesh it is a bizaare issue..the bottom line in order for a Christian to become a Jew he/she must convert according to Jewish law. Geeze I guess if you want, you can call yourself a tree. Doesn't make you one.

It is obvious that many of the key beliefs and practices of Christianity and Islam derive from Judaism.

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
The historical name for such people, from the early Christian Church, was "Judeo-Christians". That would be a very clear name, too.

It is obvious that many of the key beliefs and practices of Christianity and Islam derive from Judaism.

Could SOMEBODY please attempt to answer my other questions? I'll send you a virtual bowl of tiny new local strawberries with a choice of chantilly cream or kirsch.

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Mishei, see that other Jews for Jesus thread and I'll post my response to you there.

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]