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Author Topic: CRTC's new No-call list
M. Spector
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posted 30 September 2008 07:53 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Today is the first day for registering on the junk phone call NO NOT CALL list. Surveys have shown that the vast majority of Canadians intend to register.

And judging by the difficulty getting through to the CRTC's special website today, many of them are doing it right now.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 30 September 2008 02:20 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The CBC story brings up a significant drawback to this:
quote:
Eighteen months ago, Pitney Bowes, which specializes in mail delivery and data analytics, invested more than $400 million in business technology to take advantage of what it sees as a major shift from telemarketing to direct mailing. Chopra said this is a "permission based" marketing medium that most people prefer.

People will receive fewer annoying phone calls, Chopra said, and will receive more direct mail that is more relevant to their needs.



Telemarketing may be more annoying to people, but junk mail is immeasurably more annoying to trees.

From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 30 September 2008 03:07 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Direct mail is a lot more expensive than telemarketing. I don't expect a huge increase in the former.

quote:
Registering on the National Do Not Call List (DNCL) will not eliminate all telemarketing calls. There are exemptions within the Rules that may allow calls from organizations such as charities, those with whom you have existing business relationships, political parties and newspapers. - above website

[ 30 September 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
bagkitty
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posted 30 September 2008 03:39 PM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have been trying all day to get in, no luck yet.
From: Calgary | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
triciamarie
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posted 30 September 2008 05:14 PM      Profile for triciamarie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was on the site a couple days ago. There are lots of exceptions to the new rules -- registered charities for one are still allowed to harass you, so that already covers a large proportion of the calls I get, that I will still be getting. You're supposed to be able to explicitly opt out those kind of calls, but how that will work now when it never did before, I'm not clear.

Companies with whom you have done business in the past 18 months are also exempt; banks, for example, who harass me mercilessly. Incidentally I have heard that this goes to one of the major reasons why the registered banks want the ability to sell insurance, so that they can develop these huge customer databases sharing information across divisions -- which is also apparently within the bounds of privacy law.

Also exempt are police and polling agencies (no kidding), although as I mentioned in the polling thread last week, I am optimistic that there could be grounds for complaint against KlrVu, the telemarketing / research company out of Winnipeg, due to their use of automatic dialing technology to promulgate their ridiculous surveys.

As for the big serious telemarketing scams, Centrex phone service resellers are supposed to ensure that the call forwarding function is not being used in telemarketing. I guess that could work... There are major fines for individuals and companies who don't comply with these rules but as always, a lot will probably depend on how much money the regulator is given for enforcement.


From: gwelf | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 September 2008 05:55 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bagkitty:
I have been trying all day to get in, no luck yet.

Try now. I got on right away.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 30 September 2008 06:28 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I tried the website and got this:

Error
We apologize, there has been an error.

Guess it's still overloaded.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 01 October 2008 07:22 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Canada's widely anticipated do-not-call list was a victim of its own popularity when thousands rushed to sign up soon after it launched yesterday, crashing the registry website and clogging toll-free phone lines.

The system was so overwhelmed it crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and was available only sporadically for the rest of the day.

The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the federal agency in charge of the list, said it would be working overnight to increase the system's capacity.

There is no deadline to sign up for the service.

"We're victims of our own success," said Denis Carmel, a spokesperson for the CRTC.

More than a million consumers had called one of two phone lines to register by early afternoon. At one point more than 40,000 callers were trying to get through "at the same instant," Carmel said. An unknown number also tried to sign up online at the registry's website.

Just over 334,000 consumers had succeeded in getting on the list by 4 p.m., Carmel said. Most of them had signed up by 9 a.m., when the system became overwhelmed. Only a few thousand were able to get through after that, he said.

The system is operated for the federal agency by Bell Canada.


Enough said

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
bagkitty
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posted 01 October 2008 07:30 AM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Finally got in during the wee hours. Some benefits do exist to periodic bouts of insomnia it seems.
From: Calgary | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 06:12 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I tried it just now and it worked.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 02 October 2008 03:13 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Advertizing of all kinds should be examined more closely-- in a perfect world. No doubt things will proceed as they have been. But for the sake of conversation...

The do not call list, while welcomed by me, is a day late and a dollar short. In some ways, I think the market has spoken. People have become hardened to pitches, and most just don't answer or, upon detecting the sales pitch, hang up. So I see the do not call list as something that just hastens the demise of this marketing tool.

Glad to see you go, go, go, go, GOODBYE. As Joey Ramone used to say.

Advertising is like that. A new technology or new technique comes along, and it gets public attention-- until every advertising agency copies it, and the public tunes it out.

Look down any town's "Golden Mile"-- particularly if it's a route you are familiar with-- and actually look at the signs. You'll see stuff you never noticed before. Because you tuned it out. You also tuned out the brutal uglyness of it all. You might also have tuned out the other signs. The speed limit sign, the school zone sign....

At a certain point, advertising encroches on your right as a person not to live in a butt ugly town. And it challenges public safety.

To what end? What value does this add to our lives? To our economy? I don't ask that on the internet without thinking it provides some. But enough to give the industry free riegn over our rights?

I think not.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 02 October 2008 03:33 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And then there is SPAM. For a while filters work, then it starts up again.

Tommy, I'm not sure we don't see advertising placards we've consciously "tuned out". I'm sure they are there in the back of our minds somewhere.

But it is impressive that so many people are taking action.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 02 October 2008 03:39 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How broad a phenomena is this though? Is it just advertising? Or is it part of people being fed up with business, or at least increasingly common sharp business practice, in general?

Gas price fixing, text message price fixing, cell phone gougery, throtteling, blowing up neighborhoods, etc, etc, etc.

Business seems to be above the law these days. I think the number of people who have so far flocked to the "do not call list" may not just be an anti- telemarketing statement, but an anti- business statement?


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
bagkitty
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posted 02 October 2008 03:45 PM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Now, I have stopped people dropping off flyers at my home, I wonder what the chances are that Canada Post can be forced to adopt a "no unaddressed ad mail" option. Of course, I wouldn't have to bring the recycling in as often... hey, it's a win/win.
From: Calgary | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 02 October 2008 04:30 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Alas, I do consult the grocery store flyers. I think they will be increasingly available online, then I can put a stop to that.

Yes, wondering how the general anti-business sentiment can be transformed into some kind of class consciousness or empowerment... A lot of people feel so powerless with globalisation, outsourcing, delocalisation.

I have two old cast-iron frying pans made in Carleton Place, not far away at all...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 03 October 2008 10:59 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I did some specific grocery shopping yesterday, to make a large batch of speghetti sauce. I prefer canned mushrooms as they hold together better over a long day of simmering.

Couldn't find any canned mushrooms that weren't a product of China. Now, I'm not making a point of not buying Chinese products because I'm against Globalization. I'm not buying Chinese products because I like to avoid the whole sickness and death thing.

Easy enough with mushrooms. I just went over and bought some grown a county over. But, have you ever seen orange juice sold as "Product of Canada"? Odd, you say, when there's no orange groves here. It's reconstituted orange consentrate from China-- if you dig deep enough to get the info.

Chinese orange juice labeled as "Product of Canada" because they added water to it on this side of the border.

And that's "legal".

I think there's more than just speghetti sauce simmering in the kitchens of the country. I tend to think the "do not call" list is the only outlet for steam at the moment.

A tiny and insufficient one at that.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 03 October 2008 11:34 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
Chinese orange juice labeled as "Product of Canada" because they added water to it on this side of the border.
They do the same with canned apple juice - and we do grow apples in Canada!

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 October 2008 12:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's interesting that they anticipate that one of the side effects of the Do Not Call list will be more ad mail.

Personally, I've always thought that it would be a good idea for people to get together and protest ad mail by getting activists to go door-to-door and collect ad mail from people willing to give itup, and then dump it all into the nearest mailboxes, marked "return to sender".


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 03 October 2008 12:54 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I might try that with the junk mail, if it gets out of hand.

Years ago when I still paid bills by mail I used to return all the advertising sent to me with the bill with the enclosed payment. Didn't stop them from sending more, but that was everyone else's fault that didn't do the same.

I've stopped most "junk mail" from being plopped on my porch. Of course, the environmental aspect was one reason. But the other was the fact that no one read the several pounds of advertising. So it went from my porch, to my internal blue box inside, then to the external blue box, then to the curb on garbage/recycling day. I thought the whole expenditure of effort, while not onerous in the physical sense, just plain insane.

It took several phone calls, and a sign on my porch to get it stopped. Then a telemarketer called, and asked if I was getting the advertising. I said "no", and added that I didn't want it. I repeated that I didn't want it. And after that, I added, again, that I didn't want it.

Next week, it was on my porch again. But I got it re-stopped after only a couple weeks and several phone calls durring which, you might be surprised to know, I never lost my temper.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 03 October 2008 12:59 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Since 1997, Canada Post has provided Canadians with the option to not receive unaddressed admail.
quote:
Canada Post respects the wishes of consumers who indicate, through a self-produced note on their mailbox or mail receptacle, that they do not wish to receive unaddressed material. The only exemptions are materials from Elections Canada and Provincial Chief Electoral offices, House of Commons mailings, municipal electoral mailings, and community newspapers.
- Canada Post website


If people don't wish to receive addressed advertising mail, they can simply contact the Canadian Marketing Association and request to have their name removed from mailing lists.

[ 03 October 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 03 October 2008 01:06 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Make sure to also register at Michael Geist's http://IOptOut.ca:

quote:
The Canadian government passed legislation in 2005 mandating the creation of a do-not-call registry. The registry takes effect on September 30, 2008, yet many Canadians may be disappointed to learn about the exemption of a wide range of organizations (registered charities, business with prior relationships, political parties, survey companies, and newspapers). Under the law, exempted organizations are permitted to make unsolicited telephone calls despite the inclusion of the number in the do-not-call registry. However, organizations must remove numbers from their lists if specifically requested to do so.

IOptOut takes advantage of this approach by allowing Canadians to create and manage a personal do-not-call list that begins where do-not-call list ends. Once you register, you'll be able to view a categorized list where you can opt-out of further contact from exempt organizations. To do this we send an email notification to each organization on your behalf requesting that your name, email address and phone number(s) be removed from their active marketing lists.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 03 October 2008 01:22 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you, M. Spector, I was under the impression that junk mail delivered by Canada Post couldn't be stopped.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 October 2008 02:11 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fabulous! I just signed up for Michael Geist's list.

Also, M. Spector, I think I knew that at some point, but had forgotten. I've moved several times in the last few years, so the junk mail hasn't followed me.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
G. Pie
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posted 04 October 2008 05:09 AM      Profile for G. Pie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whenever a SASE is included in his junk mail, my dad returns all that crap to sender. That way, they get dinged for the postage.

I don't have a land line anymore so I don't get junk phone calls but, when I did, the thing I hated most was the automated "Congratulations!" phone calls. It's a shame charities are exempt from the no call registry, as they tend to be the worst offenders.

I agree that paper junk mail is a problem but it's not a privacy intrusion the way an unwanted phone call is.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
1weasel
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posted 04 October 2008 08:59 AM      Profile for 1weasel        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Chinese orange juice labeled as "Product of Canada" because they added water to it on this side of the border.[/QB]

Wine is similar in that way. Unless the label has VQA you really can't be certain where the juice was tankered in from. All you know is the finished wine was fermented in Canada.

Of course, this has little to do with the no-call list. For what it's worth, there is the red dot campaign. Unfortunately, my community newpaper stopped its delivery to me when the red dot went on my mailbox. Guess they missed the memo.


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 04 October 2008 10:10 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 1weasel:
All you know is the finished wine was fermented in Canada.
Well, that's the crucial difference, isn't it? If it was fermented in Canada, it's not unreasonable to call it "Product of Canada", is it?

If all you're doing is importing fruit juice concentrate, adding Canadian water, and selling it as reconstituted juice, it's harder to justify calling it a Product of Canada.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 04 October 2008 10:40 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by G. Pie:
It's a shame charities are exempt from the no call registry, as they tend to be the worst offenders.

Try http://IOptOut for dealing with charities.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 04 October 2008 03:13 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Well, that's the crucial difference, isn't it? If it was fermented in Canada, it's not unreasonable to call it "Product of Canada", is it?

If all you're doing is importing fruit juice concentrate, adding Canadian water, and selling it as reconstituted juice, it's harder to justify calling it a Product of Canada.


I think I've noticed some words to the effect "made from a blend of Ontario and French grapes" on labels-- which I don't have a problem with.

What's wrong with telling the truth? The fact these companies lie by omission tells me they have no confidence in their suppliers.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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