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Topic: British teacher pardoned in Sudan
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ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961
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posted 03 December 2007 03:31 AM
Good newsCNN
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005
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Caissa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12752
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posted 03 December 2007 04:50 AM
I chose my adjectives with care,YMMV.ETA: I think Canada's drug laws are "primitive and "Barbaric". I think the application of the death penalty in the US is "primitive" and "barbaric." [ 03 December 2007: Message edited by: Caissa ]
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006
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unionist
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Babbler # 11323
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posted 03 December 2007 05:15 AM
It's a good thing she's not Australian. They'd make her serve the rest of her sentence back home.Indeed, she's lucky she's not Canadian and facing a death sentence. She wouldn't even rate a consular visit these days. Of course, that might only apply to prisoners held in democratic prisons like Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, as opposed to the primitive and barbaric non-U.S. facilities.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Petsy
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Babbler # 12553
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posted 03 December 2007 06:12 AM
I too am pleased she has been pardoned. To western sensibilities the law is absurd. However Islam in certain places and amongsrt certain groups of the faithful has a very different take on faith and Sharia law permeates much of society in many countries in Africa. We may not like it, find it bizarre and extraordinary that someone could be locked away and even whipped for such innoucuous action however anyone travelling to such places let this be a cautionary tale. Most Muslims I know here in Canada find Sharia law as it is applied in its extreme objectionable and we ought not hold Muslims here in a negative light for what occurs in countries such as Sudan. That said in my view I hope that Sharia law goes through an eventual reformation in due time.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006
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AfroHealer
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Babbler # 11362
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posted 03 December 2007 09:32 AM
Yeah ..its funny how when its a white-person or western, who gets to benifit form dictatorial powers, then its a good thing.but when its Africans or in the case of Latin america African and Indidenouse people, then its all bad and evil. Ask yourself why someone would go to work in a foreign country, and not bother to be intimately familiar with the laws of the land. You have a duty, to get to know your rights, in any country that you choose to reside in. According to Canadian law, ignorance of the law is not good enough. I do think here punishment was excessive, but in reality westerners need to learn that they are not above the law.
From: Atlantic Canada | Registered: Dec 2005
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Free_Radical
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Babbler # 12633
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posted 03 December 2007 09:37 AM
quote: Originally posted by unionist: Indeed, she's lucky she's not Canadian and facing a death sentence. She wouldn't even rate a consular visit these days.
Depends on if Stockwell Day considers Sudan "a democratic country that supports the rule of law" (CBC).Sudan obviously isn't, but he's cool with the U.S. - and no doubt this particular brand of religious fundamentalism must carry some appeal for Day. So who knows. He'll probably need a sit-down with the ambassador from Khartoum to suss out his views on when the dinosaurs roamed the earth before reaching a conclusion. [ 03 December 2007: Message edited by: Free_Radical ]
From: In between . . . | Registered: May 2006
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Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019
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posted 03 December 2007 09:41 AM
Looks like right-wing rag The Daily Express agrees with Caissa about the "barbarity" of Sudanese justice. From the blog Islamophobia Watch: quote: The right-wing press is having a field day with the report that teacher Gillian Gibbons has been arrested in Khartoum after letting her class of seven-year-olds name a teddy Mohammed.The Daily Express leader is headed "Barbaric clash of values" and opines that the actions of the Sudanese state "show how nasty is the Muslim code of sharia law" and indicate "a fundamental incompatibility between Islamic and Western values". The Sun mentions that Ms Gibbons' children have refused to issue a statement and quotes a relative as saying that "they do not want to aggravate the situation". But the Sun itself has no hesitation in doing just that. Its front page article is headlined "Muslims insulted by Teddy" and an editorial comment inside declares: "The West is routinely condemned for demonising Muslims. But it's hard to sympathise with a faith that demands 40 lashes for calling a teddy bear Mohammed. Every perceived slight seems punishable by violence or even death. Until Muslim leaders speak out publicly against such barbarity, East and West will never come to understand one another." Needless to say, the Sun hasn't actually asked any leading British Muslims for their views on the case. The Sun Online website has, however, invited its readers to submit their opinions.
While I remain convinced that Cassia "carefully chose" words like "primitive" and "barbaric" to provoke rather than to engage critically, his threatening, macho posturing reproduces the age-old Orientalist vocabulary of defining Middle Eastern people as backwards and animalistic. The sensationalist way this story is framed in the Western media (40 lashes? Really? She was sentenced to two weeks; still unacceptable, surely, but it's a far cry from the "barbarity" of a public whipping) and gleefully scooped up by certain babblers is extraordinarily disquieting. It's consonant with the way Muslim leaders in the U.K. are expected to go through great measures to denounce the story, to criticize a nation they have virtually no contact with, or else face accusations of appeasement from white leaders and media. If only we could expect the same from our white politicians on the Western acts of "barbarity" that touch a helluva lot more people than one English school teacher... It shouldn't be surprising, of course, since Caissa usually only shows up here to defend the rights of white masculinity and point out where minorities or women are playing their respective "cards" out of turn. ETA: At the pain of repeating myself on the earlier thread, I wonder where all this Western outrage and concern at Sudanese injustice has been since 2003, when the Darfur genocide began. I guess it doesn't have the feelgood punch an English school teacher provides. [ 03 December 2007: Message edited by: Catchfire ]
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003
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Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553
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posted 03 December 2007 10:40 AM
quote: Originally posted by unionist: Petsy, it's very kind of you not to blame Muslims in Canada for what happens in Sudan.
Unionist that was a completely gratuitous comment.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006
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Ibelongtonoone
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Babbler # 14539
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posted 03 December 2007 10:55 AM
OK OK we get it - it's only right to condemn western countries for ridiculous crimes and punishments otherwise you're a racist. Btw - the reason this story matters - is the fanaticsm! Really believing that this woman deserved to die! It's not about Islam or Africa or the US. The idea that people are always rational - ie. every action is a rational response to some injustice - this should prove that this is clearly false - irrational thoughts and actions when backed up by superstition can be very dangerous. That's the main point I believe. Bring on the sidetracking.also - I'm not a right wing troll - I picked this thread to comment cause I read this board and I like to go against the grain and make people defend ridiculous things sometimes.
From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2007
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AfroHealer
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Babbler # 11362
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posted 03 December 2007 11:05 AM
things that makes me go Hmmm .. World wide outrage bacause one woman might spend two weeks in jail or get lashed.HMMMMMMM .. but no worldwide outrage at countless African women getting rapped, tortured, terrorized and killed? Excuse me for pointing out the obvious racial preferential treatment. Its funny how they can find the means, to interfere with the Sudanese govt in the case of one white woman. maybe some white women need to threaten their western govts, that they will move in and live with the women b4 it will be worth the while for the rest of the western powers to do something. Since its blatantly obvious, that our (African) lives are worthless to the global community.
From: Atlantic Canada | Registered: Dec 2005
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AfroHealer
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Babbler # 11362
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posted 03 December 2007 11:40 AM
lets not forget that the US govt, was dealing with the Taliban and provided weapons and other military support to the very same fundamentalist that they claim to be going after now.Or how they say nothing about the fact that funds are openly raised for terrorist groups, on Saudi TV. SO long as the oil flows from Saudi, they have no human rights violations. As soon as that changes, the us will suddenly find some excuse to depose them. Same as how now that China is involved in Sudan, there is fake outrage at the govt of Sudan. Some would argue the outrage is related to Sudan no longer buying weapons of mass destruction from the US and Canada, and selling Oil to China etc.
From: Atlantic Canada | Registered: Dec 2005
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Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553
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posted 03 December 2007 11:44 AM
quote: Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
Really? Would you mind listing the many African countries where Sharia law has permeated much of society?
Sudan, almost half the provinces of Nigeria, to some extent in Libya and Senegal,Somalia...do you know any more?
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006
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Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603
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posted 03 December 2007 11:53 AM
Ibelongtonoone: quote: Btw - the reason this story matters - is the fanaticsm! Really believing that this woman deserved to die!
Read the article? There was no death involved here: quote: Gibbons, 54, was sentenced to 15 days in jail last Thursday. Without a pardon, she would have remained in jail another six days.
Weeks of jailtime, deserved to die... Whats the difference? As long as we can point out that it is their fanaticism (extra points if we can squeeze in the word barbaric) and how much better our culture is, we are good no? The rush to judge other cultures by the values of our culture is unfortunate.
From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 03 December 2007 12:07 PM
quote: Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone: Basically what you're saying is as long as the US acts hypocritically - it's impossible to critize human rights abuses any where in the world except the US?
How about you explain to us why it's a "human rights abuse" to ban insults to Mohammed in a school? What would you call it: "Freedom of speech"? Like, what if a Grade 3 teacher in a Catholic School in Ontario named one of the kids' stuffed pigs "Pope Benedict", had it marry another stuffed pig called "Mr. Piggy", and had all the kids throw rice, going "Oink oink Your Holiness, have a great honeymoon, and don't forget your birth control pills!". He might (or might not) be subject to civil or criminal charges, but he would have a hard time keeping his job - no? But I do understand how comforting it is to tell a story about how the bad people of a different colour, creed, and continent did this crappy thing to this well-meaning white lady - and how important it is to rave, rant and spew about this on a progressive board, at a time when the only country of the world that accuses Sudan of committing genocide is looking for ways to squeeze their way in to that country. So let's just wait for the next horror story about the bad bad people.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Ibelongtonoone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14539
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posted 03 December 2007 12:14 PM
noise - Cooler heads prevailed as I suspected they would all along - I was referring to the people in the streets calling for her death and of course fanaticsm is not limited to any race, religion or people living on a certain continent. I simply said that it happens - and it's not the result of rational thinking. I often think there is a something interesting hiding in statements that accuse others of racism or thinking of those in foriegn countries as barbaric when their no visible evidence to back these claims up. Who's the one who's really thinking these things? How lucky those poor Sudanese have you looking out for them hey!
From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2007
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 03 December 2007 12:27 PM
quote: Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone: good try Unionist - since it was the kids idea to name the bear that name.
Says who? And the kids run the classroom, right? I think she did it on purpose and thought she could get away with it. No one is above the law. quote: Maybe the kids should have been arrested too.
Nah, underage. That would have been an offence against human rights. quote: I 'm sure you feel exactly the same way about the offence some christians took to the crufix in piss piece of art. The artist should have been arrested right?
Not if he took his birth control pills.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Noise
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Babbler # 12603
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posted 03 December 2007 12:59 PM
quote: I often think there is a something interesting hiding in statements that accuse others of racism or thinking of those in foriegn countries as barbaric when their no visible evidence to back these claims up. Who's the one who's really thinking these things?
I was pointing out we are judging another society based on our societies values and not theirs... Why have we assumed our values are superior and take precedence over another societies values?... To the point where we must interject and enforce our values no less. quote: How lucky those poor Sudanese have you looking out for them hey!
How lucky those poor Sudanese have you to tell them whats right and wrong, what violates their law and what doesn't, and what laws of theirs are unjust in your eyes. At times, they need protected from us. Wanna tell them what they can and cannot march in the streets in protest for next? (oh wait, you already are). [ 03 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]
From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006
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Draco
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Babbler # 4885
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posted 03 December 2007 01:00 PM
quote: Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone: Btw - the reason this story matters - is the fanaticsm! Really believing that this woman deserved to die! It's not about Islam or Africa or the US. The idea that people are always rational - ie. every action is a rational response to some injustice - this should prove that this is clearly false - irrational thoughts and actions when backed up by superstition can be very dangerous. That's the main point I believe. Bring on the sidetracking.
If the point of the story is to demonstrate that people are prone to dangerous fanaticism, then it makes it even harder to understand why discussing it in a context of our own culture's dangerous fanaticism would be considered sidetracking. [ 03 December 2007: Message edited by: Draco ]
From: Wild Rose Country | Registered: Jan 2004
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Frustrated Mess
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Babbler # 8312
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posted 03 December 2007 01:56 PM
quote: gain, without evidence that I, in your words, "don't give a shit about the genocide in Iraq", or that I believe "there was no Armenian genocide", you're just making yourself look very silly.
Now you apply double-standards. How not a surprise is that? Here are your words: quote: Too many , so-called progressives take the view that trying to do anything about this disaster - or to even talk about it - is paramount to being a stooge of American and neo-con imperialism. Best to let the peole of Darfur suffer, because the U.S. might somehow tangentially gain by the world stepping in, you know?
And you linked to other discussions on this board. So you don't mind accusing others or applying blanket smears but you take exception when the same methods are applied to you. What a hypocrite. But I suppose that is self-evident.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603
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posted 03 December 2007 02:19 PM
quote: Secondly (see the obove post by Noise) many babblers believe comparing the Sudanese to ourselves is unfair because we have different cultures.
Not compare... Judge and enforce. Are you missing this intentionally? Here's our story:
quote: Gibbons, 54, was sentenced to 15 days in jail last Thursday. Without a pardon, she would have remained in jail another six days.... "This was an unfortunate, unintentional, innocent misunderstanding," Ahmed said. ... Gibbons was cleared of charges of inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs, her lawyer, Ali Ajeb, said.
Misunderstanding of laws, cleared of charges. She apologized and her Gov't stepped in, getting her a presidential pardon after she served 9 of the 15 day prison term. So far the response here:
quote: An appropriate response to a barbaric and primitive law.
Another cultures laws are barbaric and primitive when judged by our values... Good to know. quote: To western sensibilities the law is absurd. However Islam in certain places and amongsrt certain groups of the faithful has a very different take on faith and Sharia law permeates much of society in many countries in Africa. We may not like it, find it bizarre and extraordinary that someone could be locked away and even whipped for such innoucuous action however anyone travelling to such places let this be a cautionary tale.
Watch out for these bizarre cultures And my personal favorite: quote: Btw - the reason this story matters - is the fanaticsm!
The strange part is you're right... It's to fuel fanaticism. Go read the comments on the CNN article if you want a good idea of who's fanaticism it's fueling. As you put it... A 15 day jail term that was stopped at day 9 with a full apology matters not a bit... It's all about the fanaticism. ETA... If it were anything else, this statement would be the headline: quote: Cooler heads prevailed as I suspected they would all along
[ 03 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]
From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006
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Ibelongtonoone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14539
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posted 03 December 2007 04:00 PM
You deliberately misread me. Go back and look at all my posts yesterday and today and you will see that I'm not trying to stir up more anger and hatred at all. When I was talking about fanaticsm I meant the protesting crowds(everything needs a caveat on this site it seems - not that they represent all Islamic people or all Sudanese) calling for her death not the government officials. When Crtistians in America get upset because they feel like their religion is been attacked by a joke on a half hour comedy show or a provocative artwork somewhere, they get their networks to send out e-mails and they all talk about evil-hollywood and starting boycotts and if it gets big enough getting the offence things off the air or out of the museum. That's not a good thing but rarely do you see them calling for the writer of the offensive joke to be killed or the network president to be beheaded. Again I don't believe that these things represent the majority of muslims, but they are real - the camera person didn't give these people signs or tell them what to say. These images of people calling for violence creates part of the fear by which Bush can so easily manipulate the populace of the US with Fox News help of course. IT's cultural!! Absolutely but that doesn't change the images that your regular average person sees on the news. (and if you've read Sontag or McLuhan you understand the power of images, especially in today's world!!) As far a blashphemy, I think that people should be free to think what they want and freely worship. Anyone mocking, insulting or attacking any religion or it's symbols is being mean but it shouldn't be illegal because honestly it can also be funny - for example South Park's satire of christian symbols - Jesus and The Devil, as well as the episodes on Mormonism and Scientology. Anyways I can see that my interest in this topic has been misunderstood. See ya around.
From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2007
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Dead_Letter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12708
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posted 04 December 2007 01:24 AM
quote: Originally posted by AfroHealer: things that makes me go Hmmm .. World wide outrage bacause one woman might spend two weeks in jail or get lashed.HMMMMMMM .. but no worldwide outrage at countless African women getting rapped, tortured, terrorized and killed? Excuse me for pointing out the obvious racial preferential treatment. Its funny how they can find the means, to interfere with the Sudanese govt in the case of one white woman. maybe some white women need to threaten their western govts, that they will move in and live with the women b4 it will be worth the while for the rest of the western powers to do something. Since its blatantly obvious, that our (African) lives are worthless to the global community.
The plight of Africans, men and women, could hardly be more publicized in the Western world. The notoriety of this case owes solely to the bizarre and ridiculous circumstances of it, not because the woman is white.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2006
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Dead_Letter
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Babbler # 12708
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posted 04 December 2007 01:34 AM
quote: Originally posted by Noise:The rush to judge other cultures by the values of our culture is unfortunate.[/QB]
Specious. "Culture" is a meaningless word nowadays in politics. Slap it onto anything, justify anything. Let's judge other COUNTRIES on more objective standards - are they harsh with their poor, their minorities or their 'criminals'? Do their people live well? Does rationality prevail or does superstition and mysticism? Does the rule of law prevail or does arbitrary government? Sudan is a singular failure on all of those counts. The case of Gillian Gibbons is but one sensational example.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2006
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Dead_Letter
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Babbler # 12708
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posted 04 December 2007 01:59 AM
quote: Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone: As far a blashphemy, I think that people should be free to think what they want and freely worship. Anyone mocking, insulting or attacking any religion or it's symbols is being mean but it shouldn't be illegal because honestly it can also be funny -
People are free to think whatever they want mainly because there is no real way to stop them from doing so. I believe they should be free to worship as well. Although, I also believe it is the least of anyone's rights, trumped by any other more important one it might violate. Where I don't agree is that part about being "mean". It's not "mean" to mock, insult or attack someone's religion. Religious people really, really, really have that coming. And you do realize that the society we have evolved into is a direct result of people having the courage to "mock, insult and attack" the predominant religion? If nobody ever did that, the Enlightenment would never have happened. We'd still be having Thirty Years' Wars. People can ahead and think what they want because no one can stop them, as I said. But that doesn't mean anyone else needs to take them seriously when they want to impose it on others. Hey look, a lot has happened between now and 600 AD when the Koran was written. Or between now and two millenia ago when the Bible was composed. Humankind has learned a thing or two since then. A couple contradictions have opened up between now and then. We must no longer gear our societies around those outdated tomes. We know better now. Religious people trying to compel adherence to their illogical views from their fellow citizens by force is sooooo four hundred years ago. When it happens in our day, we are best served by speaking the truth, not placating stupidity.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2006
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Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019
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posted 04 December 2007 03:43 AM
While the rhetorical power of your rolly-eyed smiley is quite compelling, I question your assertion that the only reason this story is in the news is its "bizarre" and "ridiculous" nature. Usually, "ridiculous" stories get relegated to the odd-bin section of the news, and not two straight weeks of front-page treatment. Why this story? And why did this particular individual rate direct, personal state visits to plead for her freedom, and yet the millions of Africans who live under daily threat can't get their pictures in the Obituaries?I concede that they aren't English citizens, but even without mentioning that the life of a citizen of the British Empire is no longer worth more than that of a savage, why did four British citizens have to wait two years to be released from Guantanamo Bay? (At least four British residents, incidentally, are still imprisoned, without charge--unlike the school teacher in question.) Why can't this question be considered without trotting out the lame-duck response of anti-Americanism? It's contextualizing the story, not deflecting it. It should be taken for granted that the sentence levied was unjust, so the next level of intelligent analysis should not be to gleefully (or in some cases, maliciously) point fingers at a culture so that we can pat our Western backs at not being as backwards as Sudan (motes, beams, eyes, etc.) but rather to question why this story? Why now? As AfroHealer aptly points out, this story is a microcosm of Western assumptions of cultural primacy and the problems that arise when a member of one culture enters into another without properly understanding the attendant values and system of justice. Citizens of Western society simply do not have the right to travel wherever they like and expect the world to change with them, to simulate America wherever they go. And no, I am not saying the school teacher deserved what she got, but I am willing to guess that a Sikh travelling to America or Britain is far less likely to earn state-intervention should they produce a similar cultural misstep. When immigrants come to the West, they are expected to adapt (why else would they leave their "primitive" home?) Why aren't Western emigrants to Oriental countries expected to do the same? In fact, the response in this thread has been indignant that we should alter our world-view to one more consonant with African nations. It would be nice if the left characteristically engaged in a bit more critical scepticism when it came to stories like this, especially stories that relate to the cultural and politically mediated impulses of imperialism and Islamophobia that are powering movements of global conflict the Left is attempting to combat.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 04 December 2007 04:05 AM
quote: Originally posted by Catchfire: It would be nice if the left characteristically engaged in a bit more critical scepticism when it came to stories like this, especially stories that relate to the cultural and politically mediated impulses of imperialism and Islamophobia that are powering movements of global conflict the Left is attempting to combat.
I generally agree with all your comments, but what makes you initimate that the "left" is not critical of trivial stories like this one? There are no doubt individuals (cf. this discussion board) who train their telescopes on every real or imagined sin committed in a small list of countries which (coincidentally) happen to be on George W. Bush and Stephen Harper's "This Week's Axis of Evil" list. They have no eyeglasses, let alone microscopes, to aid them in examining the real crimes committed by their own governments and societies. IMHO, it is their instincts and their partisanship which are askew. Generally speaking, it is difficult to understand what such attitudes have to do with anything denoted by the term "left". In the case of media efforts to stir up hysteria (like the Gillian Gibbons case), I don't mind speaking calmly to friends, workmates, and family members about what the media are doing. But for those who style themselves "leftist" while buying into Anglo-U.S. imperial haughtiness, I still think ridicule and teasing are the most apt response.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Frustrated Mess
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Babbler # 8312
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posted 04 December 2007 05:14 AM
quote: The notoriety of this case owes solely to the bizarre and ridiculous circumstances of it, not because the woman is white.
In the West, where more often than not, bigotry rules, including among late night posters to web sites, we want to view the rest of the world through a lens of our own making. In Sudan, blasphemy is punished with death. And, yet, in the West, we have taken little notice of those convicted of blasphemy, or even worse, criticizing Sharia law, which also carries a sentence of death, until a white, British school teacher was convicted. Already facing a reduced sentence, the West rose as one and demanded even less and so she was released. Meanwhile, Sudanese took to the streets. And, again, we interpreted for ourselves that these blood thirsty savages were calling for the head of our sweet teacher. It isn't possible, for example, that they were protesting the double-standard where a Sudanese faces a lopped off head for the crime of blasphemy while a white school teacher faces 15 days reduced to nine and probably in segregation. No, because, in the West, we have never rioted over unfair penalties. No justice; no peace.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603
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posted 04 December 2007 05:55 AM
Ibelongtonoone : quote: You deliberately misread me. Go back and look at all my posts yesterday and today and you will see that I'm not trying to stir up more anger and hatred at all. When I was talking about fanaticsm I meant the protesting crowds(everything needs a caveat on this site it seems - not that they represent all Islamic people or all Sudanese) calling for her death not the government officials.
I know the fanatacism you're talking about, I'm not blind to that... But it's all we (and our media) are paying attention to. If you're not stirring up hatred, then perhaps I've missed ya on this one... But many (almost exclusively) are. The woman involved here... She was cleared of all charges (for a 15 day prison term... Not a death sentence), taken care of by gov't officials (No abuse while she was in the care of authorities... apparently). You could almost say the moderates won here. Any praise for them? No, because thats not whats important... Stressing the differences in our cultures/laws and showing off the fanatics is.
quote: Let's judge other COUNTRIES on more objective standards - are they harsh with their poor, their minorities or their 'criminals'? Do their people live well? Does rationality prevail or does superstition and mysticism? Does the rule of law prevail or does arbitrary government? Sudan is a singular failure on all of those counts.
Agreed, our superiority as obviously demonstrated by yourself makes it perfectly to ignore any of their laws that we want. Thankyou for clarifying [ 04 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]
From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006
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Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603
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posted 04 December 2007 06:03 AM
quote: No crime should be punishable by the death penalty regardless of the country
Good contribution Caissa... Want to comment on the 15 day prison term and pardon, or are you just here to freak out at Islam and 'progressives that like the death penalty'? [ 04 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]
From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 04 December 2007 06:06 AM
quote: Originally posted by Caissa: No crime should be punishable by the death penalty regardless of the country. Legal penalties for blasphemy regardless of the country prescribing them are something all leftists and progressives should oppose.
What was the crime of the Al-Shifa factory workers who were sentenced to the death penalty by Bill Clinton - and the thousands who died afterwards because of the consequent shortage of malaria and TB drugs? What was the crime of the Afghan citizen, imprisoned by the puppet regime installed by the U.S. and Canada and facing the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity? And the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in countries illegally invaded and occupied by those same forces? No one has yet paid for those acts of blasphemy, in which our country and its "allies" (sorry) were complicit. Until they do, then whining and griping about the Sudanese legal system discloses a dangerous double standard. It is particularly odious and offensive to shed tears over the existence of the death penalty in Sudan when our own frigging government has brought our society closer to restoration of capital punishment just in the past month. Such hand-wringing seems to me to be grist to the mill of the very same murderers who commit their crimes on a world scale and sentence countless thousands to death every year, without the pretext of law or any judicial proceedings. ETA: One thing you can say about the Sudanese. They only apply the death penalty in their own country. [ 04 December 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Stockholm
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Babbler # 3138
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posted 04 December 2007 06:10 AM
quote: Ask yourself why someone would go to work in a foreign country, and not bother to be intimately familiar with the laws of the land.
Oh gee, like if I go to work in a foreign country, I better read their entire criminal code to see whether there is a death penalty for naming a teddy bear "Mohammed" (the most popular name for men in the entire Muslim world). I guess before my next trip to Italy i better call the Italian embassy to make sure that I won't get shot by a firing squad if I name my goldfish "Benedict".
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
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Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 December 2007 06:13 AM
How about being sentenced to a living death? quote: What came next was deeply personal. (It is why I use "Joseph," a pseudonym for this good husband.) A Muslim, he does not like to speak to me of such personal things. But he had no choice. Camp Six is complete isolation. The men call it the dungeon above the ground. He is held alone in a metal cell, denied any contact with companions, books, news, the world - with his wife or child.North Korea used this isolation technique against our airmen in 1952. We know a good idea when we see it, so the taxpayers paid $30 million to Dick Cheney's former company to duplicate North Korea. The bunks had to be filled. Joseph got one. And so a message through me was the only way he could do his duty by her. "I want you to tell her that it is time for her . . .. to move on." "You mean . . .?" "Yes. I will never leave Guantanamo."
There is no outrage, no protests, no chest thumping or denounciations of Christo-fascism when the victims are both ours and brown skinned.ETA, and in case no one clicks on the link: quote: No one alleges that Joseph was ever a terrorist, or a soldier, or a criminal. The military told him in 2002 he was innocent.
[ 04 December 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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Noise
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Babbler # 12603
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posted 04 December 2007 06:36 AM
quote: Your last clause was uncalled for and indeed Noise; a moderator will be notified.
So the first clause of 'good contribution' Caissa is ok, the second explaining how 'good contribution' is intended to mean how inane your post was is worthy of mod intervention? quote: I also oppose female circumcision and the practice of women who have been raped being stoned to death in parts of Afghanistan and i oppose people being executed for being gay or lesbian in Iran and other countries.
Stockholm, I agree with this... But it's nonsequitor at best. Was the Brit teacher stoned, raped, executed, or otherwise? As far as I can see, she was treated very fairly and pardoned, including extra attempts to ensure her security. Not one word of support or agreeance for the moderates that pardoned her, nothing at all in regards to the story, just repetative judgements of the fanatics. Perfectly good scenario of when 'cool heads' prevailed, yet all we can do is fuel the extremes. If there is a Western media 'mission success'! to be proclaimed, they hit their target and then some [ 04 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ] ETA: quote: No, Catchfire; I don't believe their should be penalties for blasphemy.
Unless it's blasphemy directed at Caissa, then it's an 'email to the mod'-worthy event [ 04 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]
From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006
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Stockholm
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posted 04 December 2007 07:27 AM
quote: Just out of curiosity, when will you (and Caissa, for good measure) be "opposing" such laws in a non-Arab nation?
First of all Iran is a non-Arab nation and I condemn their use of the death penalty and all other human rights abuses. I also condemn female circumcision in various sub-Saharan African countries which are also not "Arab". and I also condemn the use of the death penalty in the US and China (two more non-Arab countries) and I consider it barbaric when Tamil Tigers blow people up (guess what they aren't Arabs or Muslims either) and i consider the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazi Holocaust to have been barbaric (not Muslim or Arab either). The scary things about this whole incident in Sudan are as follows: 1. If this woman had been a native Sudanese and committed the same crime - she may well have been executed and we never would have even known about it. I'm sure the Sudanese government doesn't put out regular press releases about who they execute for absurd "crimes" such as blasphemy. 2. The very fact that thousands of people were marching in Khartoum demanding that she be executed is a sign of a pretty sick society. Sure you can compare this to Rev. Phelps and his "God hates fags" demos at funerals for people who died of AIDS in the US - but he has about 20 followers and he gets condemned by everyone. The demand for execution for ridiculously petty so-called crimes seems to be a lot more widespread in Sudan and that's sad.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
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Stockholm
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2007 07:37 AM
quote: It isn't possible, for example, that they were protesting the double-standard where a Sudanese faces a lopped off head for the crime of blasphemy while a white school teacher faces 15 days reduced to nine and probably in segregation.
Show me evidence that the Sudanese protesters were demanding that Sudanese people jailed for similar "crimes" be given clemency? I see none. They just wanted the British woman to be murdered by their government. If they were protesting the double standard then they would have been demanding that double standard be eliminated by having the government immediately commute the sentences of all people on death's row in Sudan for having named a stuffed animal Mohammed.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
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EmmaG
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posted 04 December 2007 09:26 AM
The BBC seems to agree with the view that the protestors were calling for a tougher sentence for the teacher: quote: The marchers took to the streets after Friday prayers to denounce the sentence as too lenient. The protesters gathered in Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace in the capital, many of them carrying knives and sticks. Some news agencies reported thousands of people took part in the protest, but a BBC reporter at the scene said up to a thousand marchers turned out. According to some agencies, some of the protesters chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad". One demonstrator told reporters that it was unacceptable to take a toy and call it Muhammad. "We can't accept it from anybody. Even if they can do that in Europe, they cannot do it here in Sudan. We ask our rulers and judges to review what they have said. Fifteen days is not enough."
From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006
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unionist
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Babbler # 11323
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posted 04 December 2007 09:39 AM
quote: Originally posted by Black Dog:
Sometimes our values are superior.
You mean, the loonie?
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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EmmaG
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posted 04 December 2007 10:02 AM
quote: Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
No. But rather than demonizing all of them because it fits nicely within my preconceptions, I prefer to think of them as people angry that a foreigner who happens to be white is treated by the law more leniently than any native Sudanese could hope to be treated under similar circumstances.
Did you read the link I posted above from the BBC? I agree that part of it is likely that they were angry that a white woman was being treated more leniently, however most seemed to agree with the law overall and want it enforced.
From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006
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EmmaG
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posted 04 December 2007 10:48 AM
From Caissa's link above: quote: Hundreds of people took to the streets of the Sudanese capital on Friday, many waving swords and Islamic flags and calling for her execution.
I would understand doubting CNN, CBC, BBC etc., but even Al Jazeera is reporting the protest in this manner.
From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006
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Michelle
Moderator
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posted 04 December 2007 11:07 AM
quote: Originally posted by unionist: Like, what if a Grade 3 teacher in a Catholic School in Ontario named one of the kids' stuffed pigs "Pope Benedict", had it marry another stuffed pig called "Mr. Piggy", and had all the kids throw rice, going "Oink oink Your Holiness, have a great honeymoon, and don't forget your birth control pills!". He might (or might not) be subject to civil or criminal charges, but he would have a hard time keeping his job - no?
Sure. And if all that happened to the woman was being fired from her job, then that would've been fine. I think you might have had a problem with it, on the other hand, if people paraded in the streets chanting for the execution of your hypothetical teacher, and they were sentenced to caning and imprisonment because of it. I'm sorry, but while I understand why using racially-loaded terms like "barbaric" is a problem when talking about Africans, I have no problem with saying in no uncertain terms that such laws are wrong, and the people parading in the streets calling for her execution are way in the wrong. Just as they are wrong when they support such heinous punishments for the powerless and the dissenters among their own citizens. These people are religious persecutors, not misunderstood underdogs.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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AfroHealer
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posted 04 December 2007 11:51 AM
Can't help but notice how some in the west have characterized Aljahzera as propaganda. but Then refer to it whenever a story there apears to support their argument. Even though it really does not. (I just checked, they said some were calling for her death,) sounds like what I hear at anti-abortion or homophobia protest.All kinds of Christian leaders have called for killings of all kinds of people in Canad and the US, some even do it on their national TV shows. But somehow you are surprised that some African religious leaders might have similar views? How come the fanatics here, who are supporting the killing of many in other parts of the world, are just ignored or laughed at. But its only the Islamic leaders that need to be address. I would suggest that you have a better chance of actually doing something about the wave of hatred coming from christian religious leaders within western countries. But oh, that would mean actualy having to talk to people from your culture who are insensitive and bigoted. Its so much easier to just ignore that, and fan the flames of Islamophobia. I listen to an interview with the British School teacher today, she said she went to Sudan for some adventure. Who the heck is so clueless as to go into the middle of a war zone, and be that naive and insensitive to local customs. How anyone in the western would could have missed the stories about the so-called "Mohamed Cartoons" recently, is beyond me. I feel sorry for the kids she was teaching. How about ask the Canadian Govt. what they are doing about the child-abuse and other crimes against humanity happening in bountiful BC. OH i see, they claim to be chrisitan, so its ok. Like anyone can tell me with a straight face, that the same sort of thing would be tolerated in Canada, if it was any non-mainstream religion. BC polygamist claims Persecution
From: Atlantic Canada | Registered: Dec 2005
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pookie
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posted 04 December 2007 12:01 PM
quote: Originally posted by AfroHealer:
I listen to an interview with the British School teacher today, she said she went to Sudan for some adventure. Who the heck is so clueless as to go into the middle of a war zone, and be that naive and insensitive to local customs.How anyone in the western would could have missed the stories about the so-called "Mohamed Cartoons" recently, is beyond me. I feel sorry for the kids she was teaching.
Nice.
From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005
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Stockholm
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 December 2007 12:05 PM
quote: All kinds of Christian leaders have called for killings of all kinds of people in Canad and the US, some even do it on their national TV shows.
...and when they do, I condemn them and they tend to be made into objects of derision and ridicule in our mass media as well. quote: But somehow you are surprised that some African religious leaders might have similar views?
Actually, it DOES surprise me that even the most fanatical religious freaks on earth would advocate the death penalty over the naming of a stuffed animal.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
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Black Dog
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posted 04 December 2007 12:59 PM
quote: All kinds of Christian leaders have called for killings of all kinds of people in Canad and the US, some even do it on their national TV shows.But somehow you are surprised that some African religious leaders might have similar views?
What's troubling is the part where the views of these wackos is actually the law of the land. quote: How come the fanatics here, who are supporting the killing of many in other parts of the world, are just ignored or laughed at. But its only the Islamic leaders that need to be address.
Because, as you say, our wackos are ignored or laughed at. They are not running the show and getting people imprisoned or executed. quote: How about ask the Canadian Govt. what they are doing about the child-abuse and other crimes against humanity happening in bountiful BC. OH i see, they claim to be chrisitan, so its ok.
I'm not sure how a story about a police investigation into these nutters and their claims of persecution indicates anyone thinks it's ok. quote: Like anyone can tell me with a straight face, that the same sort of thing would be tolerated in Canada, if it was any non-mainstream religion.
The Bountiful bunch are not a mainstream religion. They aren't even mainstream Mormons. [ 04 December 2007: Message edited by: Black Dog ]
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002
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