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Author Topic: Weisnethal centre expolit rep
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 30 May 2006 12:59 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Simon Weisenthal Centre has pulled out the rhetorical canon in an attempt to forestall a boycott of Israeli academics, organised to protest the state of Israel's racism, war crimes, 40 year war of occupation.

quote:
Wiesenthal Center: UK boycott redolent of Nazi campaign

Jewish human rights organization sends letter to British Education Department saying boycotting of Israeli universities 'a propaganda instrument of the PNGO - a network of Palestinian NGOs that includes groups associated with the European Union blacklisted terrorist organization Hamas, and those which glorify suicide terrorism'

Addressing British Secretary of State for Education, Alan Johnson, and Universities UK President Drummond Bone, the Simon Wiesenthal Centers Director for International Relations, Dr. Shimon Samuels, called for their action against the British academic boycott of Israeli universities.

"The ongoing campaign, last year at the Association of University Teachers (AUT) and this year at the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education (NATFHE) to incite to a British academic boycott of Israeli universities - is redolent of the Nazi 1930's 'Kaufen Nicht Bei Juden' boycott of Jewish professionals and enterprises," Samuels said in a letter to the British officials.


So I guess we can revise our opinion of who's likely to be lying in the National Post Iranian race-baiting story: this article shows the SWC engaged in fact-distortion, race-baiting, and attempting to trade off the Nazi past to win cheap political points in the present. Exactly the same as in the fake 'yellow stars' story from last week.

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 30 May 2006 01:03 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You mean the Simon Wiesenthal Centre is being critical of what it perceives to be anti_Semetic? What a surprise!!
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 30 May 2006 01:09 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
You mean the Simon Wiesenthal Centre is being critical of what it perceives to be anti_Semetic? What a surprise!!

Yes, and is clearly willing to both lie and distort reality in order to do so.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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Babbler # 11490

posted 30 May 2006 05:38 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"The ongoing campaign, last year at the Association of University Teachers (AUT) and this year at the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education (NATFHE) to incite to a British academic boycott of Israeli universities - is redolent of the Nazi 1930's 'Kaufen Nicht Bei Juden' boycott of Jewish professionals and enterprises," Samuels said in a letter to the British officials.

Down goes 90% of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's credibility, in my view.

[ 30 May 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 30 May 2006 07:34 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There may be some issues here but I would be careful of what is posted. The Center has a world wide reputation for their credible work. We dont want to libel them
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 30 May 2006 10:21 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
The Center has a world wide reputation for their credible work. We dont want to libel them

Yeah, that's what they're trading on, to slime Israel's enemies.

And they don't appear to be all that concerned about libelling others--with, for instance, the false accusation of 'anti-semitism'.

~~

This is a textbook case of 'crying wolf'. If the SWC and Israel's partisans issue too many false cries of 'anti-semitism', people are going to stop responding entirely.

Even for genuine discrimination.

~~

The SWC needs a new board, and they need it fast.

~~

let's be really clear about what they're doing: they're falsely accusing innocent people of racism, in order to provide a smokescreen for Israel's, yes, own racism.

And in so doing--twice in as many weeks, lets be honest--they're showing themselves as NOT a non-partial group of researchers and anti-racism advocates, but as a part of the propaganda wing of the state of Israel, issueing what is not even pro-Israel propaganda, but instead is propaganda against those Israel sees as enemies.

[ 30 May 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 31 May 2006 01:40 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
There may be some issues here but I would be careful of what is posted. The Center has a world wide reputation for their credible work. We dont want to libel them


I'll say whatever the fuck I want about them. Sure they do some GREAT work, but they are also involved in trading on the ethical currency of the Holocaust as "Absolute Evil" in order to protect Israel from scrutiny. They do the Holocaust and Jews a disservice by using it as a cheap bargaining tool.

O-hasbar-a, O-hasbar-a, O-hasbar-a how you whine....

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 31 May 2006 03:32 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
There may be some issues here but I would be careful of what is posted. The Center has a world wide reputation for their credible work. We dont want to libel them

Listen, I'm getting tired of this, ohara. No one has libelled anyone. Quit shadow-moderating and trying to intimidate people into not criticizing organizations you like.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 31 May 2006 03:33 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
P.S. I would like the thread title changed immediately, please. It's unnecessarily provocative, and some women on babble have in the past talked about how using "whore" in this manner upsets them.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 05:04 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am always concerned about crossing the line between legitimate criticism of Israel and or Zionism into Anti-Semitism. Dennis Prager has an interesting series on this issue- worthwhile food for thought; Explaining Jews Part VII: Why Anti- Zionism is Anti- Semitism
From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 31 May 2006 05:18 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Blah, blah, blah

Italy is not Israel and Italy occupies no people to whom it then relegates to non-citizen without rights nor legal protections soley on the basis of them not being Catholic.

The comparison is absurd.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 05:26 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well Frustrated, I do not think the comparison absurd but simply a device to illustrate his point. The belief that the Jewish people belong in Zion is a tenet of faith that precedes the modern Zionist movement. Now how would you counter his example of Pakistan and its Hindu refugees?
From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
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posted 31 May 2006 06:28 AM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Israel practices "targetted assassination", instead of bring "criminals to justice". This is summary execution, without trial.

There are many documented cases of the I.D.F. bulldozing Palestinian homes with people still inside, in addition to running down protesters with the same bulldozers.

Israel recognizes JEWISH MARRIAGES ONLY, no other. How is this democratic and respective of other religions/cultures?

Israel only allows Israeli citizens to own property, so dispossessed arab property is seized without compensation. "Communal" property is also seized, without compensation to anyone, community or individual.

Israel possesses nuclear weapons and is NOT a signatory to ANY treaty regarding nuclear weapons. All the fuss over Iran "developing nuclear weapons", or Iraq or Pakistan or India, etc., over the years has all but forgotten the ILLEGAL way Israel aquired, developed and built nuclear weapons.

The Israeli Knesset has parties/members who openly advocate EXPELLING ALL NON -JEWS, using VIOLENCE if necessary to achieve this goal. How is this different than Romans expelling Jews or what has been done to numerous minorities all over the world (American Natives in the USA come to mind, as well as Jewish people)?

If the S.I.C. supports these ideas, as outlined above, how is it different than any other hate mongering, "rogue" organization anywhere in the world?


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 07:23 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Israel practices "targetted assassination", instead of bring "criminals to justice". This is summary execution, without trial.

We could argue this point all day but the assasination of those who willingly plot to murder innocent civilians i.e. women and children is justified.

quote:
There are many documented cases of the I.D.F. bulldozing Palestinian homes with people still inside, in addition to running down protesters with the same bulldozers.

Yes documented cases exist- Israel is not without blame.

quote:
Israel only allows Israeli citizens to own property, so dispossessed arab property is seized without compensation. "Communal" property is also seized, without compensation to anyone, community or individual.

Again a complex issue re; pre & post war borders etc. A valid criticism.

quote:
Israel possesses nuclear weapons and is NOT a signatory to ANY treaty regarding nuclear weapons. All the fuss over Iran "developing nuclear weapons", or Iraq or Pakistan or India, etc., over the years has all but forgotten the ILLEGAL way Israel aquired, developed and built nuclear weapons.

Given the Holocaust and the stated aim by Israel's enemies to wipe them off the map the acqusition of nuclear weapons seems prudent on their part.

quote:
The Israeli Knesset has parties/members who openly advocate EXPELLING ALL NON -JEWS, using VIOLENCE if necessary to achieve this goal. How is this different than Romans expelling Jews or what has been done to numerous minorities all over the world (American Natives in the USA come to mind, as well as Jewish people)?

This is precisely one of the points Prager uses to ponder why Israel is singled out for condemnation and not other nations when in fact History is rife with similar examples both recent and past. What about the treatment of Christians and for that matter Jews in other Mid-Eastern countries, is this not deserving of the same condemnation? Israel is a democracy so the issue of nut jobs caling for the expulsion of non Jews is no different from what you might encounter in Say Iran or Egypt or here in Canada for that matter (Except no currently elected officials come to mind in Canada at any rate.. er I hope).

quote:
If the S.I.C. supports these ideas, as outlined above, how is it different than any other hate mongering, "rogue" organization anywhere in the world?

I do not know what their position is on the issues you raised perhaps another Babbler can provide some links.

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: Khimia lots of typo's ]

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: Khimia ]


From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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Babbler # 11427

posted 31 May 2006 07:56 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:
I am always concerned about crossing the line between legitimate criticism of Israel and or Zionism into Anti-Semitism.[/URL]

There is no border between criticism of Israel and anti-semitism; these are entirely unrelated phemonena.

Critismism of Israel is either valid or it is invalid. If valid, the motive of the critic is immaterial.

And this criticism is valid--Israel IS treating a subject population, defined by race and religion, as second class. IS still in violation, forty years later, of international law and has systematically thwarted attempts to address this peacefully. IS engaging in the war crimes of collective reprisal, summary execution, and torture, again: against targets defined by race and religion.

If these things I utter were untrue, then my motive in saying them might be of significance, but they're not so it isn't. That's what's happening, and it's an outrage.

And if the Weisenthal Centre thinks its OK--and worse, if they conspire to divert attention by delivering wild accusations--then they've destroyed any hope of credibility in future.

Just like the critics of Israel, sometimes it's future utterances might be true, but there is now no longer any good reason to take the SWC's word for it.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 31 May 2006 07:59 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is the justification for Israel as simple and immoral as "well, they did it"?

quote:

We could argue this point all day but the assasination of those who willingly plot to murder innocent civilians i.e. women and children is justified.

So you argue in support of planned acts to kill Israeli government representatives who routinely plan acts to kill innocent civilians (i.e. women and children)? BTW, how many Palestinian children have died as a result of the occupation? Why is their deaths more acceptable than Jewish deaths?

quote:

Yes documented cases exist- Israel is not without blame.

Not without blame? The occupation and the brutalization of Palestinians is not without blame? How generous of you.

quote:

Again a complex issue re; pre & post war borders etc. A valid criticism.


There is nothing complicated about racism. They are not Jewish so they do not have rights.

quote:

Given the Holocaust and the stated aim by Israel's enemies to wipe them off the map the acqusition of nuclear weapons seems prudent on their part.

Excellent. Given the genocide against Albanians and Rwandans I suppose they are entitled to nuclear arms as our native North Americans, the Irish, and any number of peoples and given the repeated and stated enmity by Israel, Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah.

quote:

This is precisely one of the points Prager uses to ponder why Israel is singled out for condemnation and not other nations when in fact History is rife with similar examples both recent and past.


Because Israel is actively engaged in it. The question is, having experienced first hand the evils of ethnic hatred and cleansing, why would Israel want to inflict such pain on another people?

You can rationalize the Israeli treatment of Palestinians any number of ways but it will never overcome the fact that it is racist, a violation of UN resolutions, international law, and likely a crime against humanity.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 31 May 2006 08:20 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Listen, I'm getting tired of this, ohara. No one has libelled anyone. Quit shadow-moderating and trying to intimidate people into not criticizing organizations you like.


Well I disagree with Ohara , I think the Center is on pretty solid ground. And Michelle why would you admonish ohara for suggesting a cautious approach? Im no lawyer and either are you. It seemed to me he just wanted to keep us out of trouble. If he's wrong fine, but why question his intentions?

From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
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posted 31 May 2006 08:43 AM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, so it is ok for Israel to possess ILLEGAL WMD's, but NO ONE ELSE!

It is ok to dismiss the "kingmakers" in the small, radical parties that actually (depending on how they vote and whether they participate in the ruling coalition) can MAKE OR BREAK A GOVERNMENT in Israel who openly advocate FORCED EXPULSION using VIOLENCE to do so. This isn't a group of nutcases, these are ELECTED POLITICO's who have the power, through the way they vote (given Israel's fractious "democratic" system), to force elections and bring down governments.

There is a HUGE difference between these fringe parties who actually get the "final say" in who governs, after a fashion, and the nuts and right wing freak anti-semites who have NO power at all.

Try doing ANYTHING on the Jewish Sabboth in Israel. The laws over there are SO draconian regarding what you can and cannot do on Saturdays that other religions/cultures get BURIED on the Jewish Sabboth.

Here in Canada, the "Christian Sabboth" is BARELY controlled anymore. You can shop, drink, etc, but NOT in Israel!

Yes, let's dismiss Israel's hardline on a number of issues as being "defensive" in nature, given jewish history!

I agree, lets give First Nations people here in Canada Nuclear Weapons and other ILLEGAL WMD's, just like Israel.

It isn't like the 400 year cultural/spiritual and actual murderous genocide, suffered by First Nations in the American Hemisphere, isn't comparable in both numbers killed and horrific treatment and exploitation!

Jews kept their culture... Natives were sent to Gulags/Quasi-Concentration Camps/Residential Schools to be ASSIMILATED into white culture. Their religion, traditions, beliefs, culture were all but erradicated.

This NEVER happened to Jewish people. Unlike Natives, Jews have been afforded EVERY opportunity to rebound and "exploit" their suffering (denying what happened to natives ISN'T illegal, but Holocaust denial sure is) in order to exact reparations and leverage to achieve their goals. Natives, it is clear, are NOT afforded a similar luxury.

I have even heard of personalities with groups like B'Nai Brith suggesting natives GIVE UP THEIR LAND CLAIMS, as they are "ancient history", and in the very NEXT BREATH, claim ALL of ERETZ ISRAEL because some book of sky fairy myths says that Jews are entitled to the land.

Natives, as a people (each individual nation that is, not overall) barely survived with their tribal/nation identity intact. The Jewish "nation" rebounded and profited from their exploitation and suffering.

I guess First Nations People have a RIGHT to do what they have been doing in Caledonia, etc., and can use ANY tactics to get back their land, using that logic!

"Whitey has persecuted us, so we can use whatever means necessary to ensure it stops and doesn't happen again". Isn't that the logic Israel attempts to use?

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: cdnviking ]


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 31 May 2006 08:44 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Because he is wrong. No one has said anything libelous against the Centre. As you can tell, there are obvious reasons for criticism.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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Babbler # 11427

posted 31 May 2006 08:50 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
Well I disagree with Ohara , I think the Center is on pretty solid ground. And Michelle why would you admonish ohara for suggesting a cautious approach? Im no lawyer and either are you. It seemed to me he just wanted to keep us out of trouble. If he's wrong fine, but why question his intentions?

It seems to everyone else that he wants to shout down the critics of Israel by making false accusations of wrongdoing.

Exactly as in the subject of this thread, in fact. I'd say "how ironic', but sadly, this technique is tiresomely predictable. Israel, it seems, has no better defense to offer but the same old lies and abuse.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 09:18 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Critismism of Israel is either valid or it is invalid. If valid, the motive of the critic is immaterial.

So you would ally with say Iran or the National Front in Britain perhaps - so long as the criticism is valid of course.


From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 31 May 2006 09:25 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:

So you would ally with say Iran or the National Front in Britain perhaps - so long as the criticism is valid of course.


Alliance has nothing to do with it; it's a simple acknowlegement of truth. If Iran or the National Front announced that the earth was round, the fact that I might disagree with their other opinions doesn't oblige me to argue in response that the earth is flat.
Your position is ridiculous.

~~

If alliance for you confers with the obligation to deny truth when you see it, if the truth being spoken is unflattering to your allies, then I think we can pinpoint exactly the source of conflict within this thread


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 31 May 2006 09:59 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Try doing ANYTHING on the Jewish Sabboth in Israel. The laws over there are SO draconian regarding what you can and cannot do on Saturdays that other religions/cultures get BURIED on the Jewish Sabboth.


Clearly you have never been in Tel Aviv. The religious laws which BTW mandate biblically (unlike Christian or Muslim canonical law) no work activity on the Sabbath, is mostly relegated to Jerusalem.

From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 10:29 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Alliance has nothing to do with it; it's a simple acknowlegement of truth. If Iran or the National Front announced that the earth was round, the fact that I might disagree with their other opinions doesn't oblige me to argue in response that the earth is flat.
Your position is ridiculous.

The point Prager was making is that many are highly selective in their application of the "Truth", that condemnation of Israel as a general rule, in certain circles more than others evidently, ignores the misdeeds of their mid east neighbors. Legitimate criticism is always valid but the motives which underly them must always be questioned, that is not a ridiculous position.


From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 31 May 2006 10:33 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:

The point Prager was making is that many are highly selective in their application of the "Truth", that condemnation of Israel as a general rule, in certain circles more than others evidently, ignores the misdeeds of their mid east neighbors.


Try the "Tommy was doing it too!" defense out on your mother, and see how she takes it.

The fact that other racists exist is no excuse for Israel's racism.

Would you have allowed the Nazis to argue that they were being 'singled out' for criticism, when the Japanese and the Turks were getting a free ride for their own atrocities? No, of course you wouldn't--an atrocity is an atrocity, and it's denunciation needs no apology from anyone, nor any test for ideological purity.

quote:
Legitimate criticism is always valid but the motives which underly them must always be questioned, that is not a ridiculous position.

If the criticism is legitimite, as you stipulate, then the underlying motive is a red herring--it might also be of interest, but it is a point unrelated in logic to the substance of the criticism.

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
evernon
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posted 31 May 2006 11:09 AM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The point as I see it is really quite simple and it seems to me has been made here on more than a few occassions; that being Israel seems to always be pointed out, segregated from the family of nations more so than many other more brutal and truly racist governments.

I for one was glad to see that the Middle East thread was removed from Babble because it simply became a home for some pretty vitriolic targetting of Israel to the basic exclusion of most other states in the region which are murderous, undemocratic, with no free speech or free press.

Israel it seems to me is very often seen on Babble as a glass that is half empty as opposed to half full. It rarely if ever gets credit for the positive influence its science and technology has had on our world. People need to reflect on why that is. I find it very troubling.


From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 31 May 2006 11:14 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by evernon:
The point as I see it is really quite simple and it seems to me has been made here on more than a few occassions; that being Israel seems to always be pointed out, segregated from the family of nations more so than many other more brutal and truly racist governments.

Stop right there, and answer one question Are they innocent? If they're guilty as charged--and they are--than no amount of whining about other people's crimes is of any consequence.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 11:22 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If the criticism is legitimite, as you stipulate, then the underlying motive is a red herring--it might also be of interest, but it is a point unrelated in logic to the substance of the criticism.

But what of those who hide their Anti-Semitism behind the veil of legitimate criticism? Would you call the motives of Ahmadinejad a Red Herring?

What solution do you propose to the Israeli Palestinian issue? Is one unified Israeli/Palestinian state an answer?

Oy Vey I spelled Israeli wrong!

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: Khimia ]


From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 31 May 2006 11:31 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:

But what of those who hide their Anti-Semitism behind the veil of legitimate criticism?


If the critism is valid--and again you stipulate to this--then whatever else the critic might believe, or that you think he might believe--isn't germane. Its not the subject under debate. It's a horse of a different colour. A complete red herring. I don't know how many other ways to say this.

If Adolf Hitler walked into a cesspit and said "this stinks", I'd feel no obligation to declare that "au contraire, the air smells sweet and you're a racist for saying so" merely because it was Hitler who'd said otherwise.

Sometimes, the truth is that the situation stinks AND Hitler's a racist. However, they're still unrelated issues.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
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posted 31 May 2006 11:38 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:

What solution do you propose to the Israeli Palestinian issue? Is one unified Israeli/Palestinian state an answer?

I think one state is the only viable--indeed, legal or moral--solution. Any other solution requires the existance of at least one officially racist state, a thing intolerable from the standpoint of human rights.

I think that the right of return will have to be finessed, perhaps by a generous world community resettling the greatest portion of the Palestinian diaspora.

I think the disparity in birth rates between Jews and Palestinians within the new state will ahve to be addressed by an aggressive program of education and development--birth rates drop with the rise in female education and the presence of a viable pension plan.

One state is the only way to resolve the conflicts over land and water--these will then need to be addressed peacefully, within a single government, rather than by war.

~~

Finally, I think that in the new nation, measures might need to be taken to prevent the formation of block politics along racial and sectarian lines: perhaps a law requiring that every third member of each party's list of candidates to the knesset be a member of the other (or another) community.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 11:41 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If Adolf Hitler walked into a cesspit and said "this stinks", I'd feel no obligation to declare that "au contraire, the air smells sweet and you're a racist for saying so" merely because it was Hitler who'd said otherwise.

No one here has suggested you do otherwise. But why do you reserve your condemnation solely for Israel? What solution do you propose?

I did not see your "solution" post in advance of this one Simon.

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: Khimia ]


From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 31 May 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:

No one here has suggested you do otherwise. But why do you reserve your condemnation solely for Israel?

Because they are us--western, developed, supposedly civilized, 'european' in culture and political institutions.

I am much less tolerant of serious moral failings amongst my friends than my enemies--after all, who'd want to associate with the thieves and murderers of the world?--and I account Israel one of Canada's peers and allies. As such, I hold them to a higher standard than I do other nations, those which, alas, I don't expect as much.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
evernon
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posted 31 May 2006 12:13 PM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Your one-state solution is a non-starter. There is no way that Israel will ever again forego its legitimate status as a Jewish democratic state. BTW have you called for the same one-state solution for Pakistan out of curiosity?
From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 31 May 2006 12:16 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by evernon:
Your one-state solution is a non-starter. There is no way that Israel will ever again forego its legitimate status as a Jewish democratic state.

You can't be both a Jewish state and a democratic state. Pick one. For as long as Israel decides to continue defining itself as existing for one privileged race, I'll go on calling it racist.

quote:
BTW have you called for the same one-state solution for Pakistan out of curiosity?[/QB]

Pakistan is one state.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 31 May 2006 12:22 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The methods to sidtrack discussions that the arrogant and self-rigteous use are amazingly similar regardless of what the issue is or what particular ideology they profess.

Personally, whenever i see a spurious post i usually find it quite easy to simply ignore it and move on to the legimate discussion. But it seems that there are more than a few that are easily sucked into debating nonsensical points and, thereby, enabling the detractors in their mission.

hmmm, seems t'was ever thus.

Having said all that, i agree with the above posters that the SWC crowd has seriously undermined their own credibility and are therefore worthy of whatever criticisms are cast their way.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
evernon
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posted 31 May 2006 12:31 PM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Pakistan is one state
So is Israel

From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 12:46 PM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Because they are us--western, developed, supposedly civilized, 'european' in culture and political institutions.

I am much less tolerant of serious moral failings amongst my friends than my enemies--after all, who'd want to associate with the thieves and murderers of the world?--and I account Israel one of Canada's peers and allies. As such, I hold them to a higher standard than I do other nations, those which, alas, I don't expect as much.


But you are admitting to a double standard, condemnation for some and a blind eye for others. With regard to the one state solution I suspect that would only lead to disaster assuming it could ever get off theground to begin with.


From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
evernon
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posted 31 May 2006 01:21 PM      Profile for evernon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Double standards have always abounded when it comes to Israel
From: Cumberland | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Khaled Mouammar
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posted 31 May 2006 01:23 PM      Profile for Khaled Mouammar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Weisenthal Centre is exploiting anti-Semitism to silence any criticism of Israel. The Centre fails to acknowledge that Israel is not the victim but the aggressor against the Palestinians, while European Jews were the victims of Nazism. Moreover, the Centre has lost any moral authority to label anyone anti-Semitic when they are in the process of building a "Tolerance Museum" on a Muslim Cemetery in occupied Jerusalem (see article below).


STOP THE BUILDING OF THE TOLERANCE MUSEUM ON A MUSLIM CEMETERY

Sunday, February 12, 2006

The Wiesenthal Center is constructing a “Museum of Tolerance” on top of a very important Jerusalem Muslim Cemetery. The cemetery is located in Zeitun al-Malk [Mamila of today], and has graves from Jerusalem’s most important Palestinian families - Husseini, Nusseibeh, Muaked, Dajani, Kuteini, Namari, Abu-Saud – dating back at least 200 years. The Wiesenthal center claims to have taken all of the legal steps necessary to ensure that the museum can be legally built. But the issue is not a legal one. It is an issue of tolerance, sensibilities, morality, and mutual respect.

Imagine the outrage if the Palestinians were building a Museum of Tolerance (or anything else) on what was once a Jewish Cemetery. Would it matter to anyone if the cemetery was not active and in use since 1948 or that it was being done “legally”?

This project has no right to exist if it creates the outrage of the millions of Muslims in this shared land and of the hundreds of thousands of them in the Holy City. The issue is now before the High Court in Israel, but it is not a legal issue. A Jewish moral voice must be sounded loud that will resonate throughout the Land against this outrageous blindness. The Chief Rabbis of Israel must speak out against the desecration of this Muslim Cemetery. All of the citizens of Jerusalem should raise their voice against this project. Jews, Muslims and Christians alike should respect each others’ sacred spaces – without this there can never be peace in this Holy City or in this Holy Land.

We call on the Government of Israel to stop this madness – who could ever imagine a Museum of Tolerance built on such bad foundations?!


Gershon Baskin, Ph.D.
Co-CEO, IPCRI
ISRAEL/PALESTINE CENTER FOR RESEARCH & INFORMATION
P.O. Box 9321, Jerusalem 91092
Tel: 972-2-676-9460 Fax: 972-2-676-8011
Mobile: 052-381-715
[email protected]
http://www.ipcri.org
http://www.place4peace.com


From: Richmond Hill, Ontario | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 31 May 2006 01:30 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by evernon:
So is Israel

One and a half, actually. That's the problem.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 31 May 2006 01:34 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:

But you are admitting to a double standard, condemnation for some and a blind eye for others.

Indeed. At least a quadruple standard, in fact.

My priority, when it comes to addressing sins is:

1. My own
2. My city/province/region's
3. Those of our allies
4. The sins of everyone else, those with whom I bear no kinship and therefore, no shared responsibility.

I can assume your priority is the reverse?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 31 May 2006 01:46 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well i tried, it seems some folks just need to bang their heads against brick walls even though it would be far eaier to simply walk around it. sigh...
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 31 May 2006 03:56 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the article:

"But the argument that Israel is illegitimate because its founding led to 600,000 to 700,000 Arab refugees is as anti-Jewish as is anti-Zionism. Virtually every country in the world was founded by displacing some of the people who had lived there, and many of those countries did far worse to far more people than Israel did. Therefore, anyone who calls only for Israel's destruction had better explain why, of all the states on earth whose founding was accompanied by the displacement of others, only the Jewish state is illegitimate."

That is a racist and two faced argument which ignores the fact that the vast majority of critics on the left would Not accept what was done to Aboriginal peoples in the past, nor do they accept parallel rightwing arguments that Aboriginal people Here should just accept whats happened and STFU. Most, like myself, support further Native land claims, and if fellow Canadians go as far as bulldozing homes on reserves for "sheltering" individual "criminals", handing the lost property over to local rednecks, you can be bloody well sure we'll be there fighting.

This is not only a disengenuous misrepresentation of "anti-Zionist" arguments (I personally support some "two state" solution, but the state of Israel apparently has no intention of following through on their side of the bargain) it also proclaims the right of one group to claim another's land based on the one groups ancient history and religious beliefs but not the other. Far as I know, there's no other basis in international law for this, and is anti-humanist and anti-democratic to its core. It is kind of ironic that defenders of Israel are the ones trying so hard to confuse criticism for a state's policies with an attack on the people Themselves. Very dangerous path to follow IMO, but not w0rth bothering with anymore, since these recurring themes seem to be impervious to reason now.

[ 31 May 2006: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 31 May 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There is no border between criticism of Israel and anti-semitism; these are entirely unrelated phemonena.

Critismism of Israel is either valid or it is invalid. If valid, the motive of the critic is immaterial.

And this criticism is valid--Israel IS treating a subject population, defined by race and religion, as second class. IS still in violation, forty years later, of international law and has systematically thwarted attempts to address this peacefully. IS engaging in the war crimes of collective reprisal, summary execution, and torture, again: against targets defined by race and religion.

If these things I utter were untrue, then my motive in saying them might be of significance, but they're not so it isn't. That's what's happening, and it's an outrage.

And if the Weisenthal Centre thinks its OK--and worse, if they conspire to divert attention by delivering wild accusations--then they've destroyed any hope of credibility in future. -S1m0n


It can't be more logical, clear or better articulated an explanation. Worth putting as a reference, available for future use.


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 31 May 2006 06:32 PM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Indeed. At least a quadruple standard, in fact.

I could not have said it better myself.


From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 31 May 2006 06:49 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Glad you agree.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 June 2006 02:29 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:

Because they are us--western, developed, supposedly civilized, 'european' in culture and political institutions.

I am much less tolerant of serious moral failings amongst my friends than my enemies--after all, who'd want to associate with the thieves and murderers of the world?--and I account Israel one of Canada's peers and allies. As such, I hold them to a higher standard than I do other nations, those which, alas, I don't expect as much.


I was nodding my head at your posts until this one. For starters, you fail to address the fact that there is an obscene underside to "Western. developed, supposedly civilised, European...culture and political institutions" that consists of exclusion, genocide, and of patent racism in the guise of particularist nationalism. Following Giorgio Agamben's notion of homo sacer as the figure that defines the political realm as such, it is a primary act of exclusion that defines the Western political state.

So in as much as we identify with the positivei "us" in Israel, we must also face the negative, obscene "us" in Israel. In your formulation, this obscene behaviour is attributed to The Other and in so doing actually preserves the structure of Israeli racism itself. For aren't Israeli supporters and state mouthpieces at pains to demonstrate that they are on the edge of civilisation, surrounded by barbarians and defending themselves and "us" against the overwhelming desire of some Muslim Other to enslave and destroy us?

Moreover, from such a position, a solution to the current conflict is only conceivable along "unilateral" lines, and as part of an internal dialogue in "the West" about our own supposed progress - again, sans obscene underside.

Secondly, those posters here complaining of a double standard in regard to Israel have become so used to parroting that line that they fail to notice that they are right for all the wrong reasons.

Yes, you are judging them differently but their opposition appropriates the guise of "universalism" to mask its ethical shortcomings. They say "treat everyone the same" while they do the opposite in the case of the Palestinians, and by utilising the poor acts of "everyone else" make the old mistake of confusion two wrongs for a right and saying "well everyone else is doing it."

Against this false universalism (actually a kind of ethical nihilism) we should posit a universizable ethics in which the prime move is to embrace the Palestinians (say) as our neighbours. And it is crucial that we consider them neighbours and not as friends or family for whom our love and protection flows automatically or perhaps even biologically. Such reflex defense is still mired in particularist oppositions of Self and Other. We must reconstitute the figure of The Palestinians as "The Same" as you or I. Not "The Same" in the sense of necessarily sharing our Western values or cultural and political memes -- which is the mistake of the American occupiers of Iraq: that underneath it all, we all want the same American things -- but The Same in the sense of being the possible participants in some procedure of Truth, or Justice or Love. In these possibilities we might root an ethics that can transverse both the particularist divides of racism and nationalism, and the hopeless nihilism of postmodern "ethnic differance."

Love thy neighbour, with due deferance to Alain Badiou...

[ 01 June 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 June 2006 06:10 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:
The belief that the Jewish people belong in Zion is a tenet of faith that precedes the modern Zionist movement. Now how would you counter his example of Pakistan and its Hindu refugees?

So tell me, Khimia, would you consider those who called, say, for the replacement of Israel as currently constituted with a binational state in which Jews and Arabs lived as equals and in peace to be antiZionist? would it be, in your view antiZionist to support a binational state if it could be guaranteed that the Jewish people could live within it in peace?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
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posted 01 June 2006 10:17 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well Ken that, perhaps unfortunately, is a utopian ideal which we know will never be realized.
From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 01 June 2006 10:24 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:
Well Ken that, perhaps unfortunately, is a utopian ideal which we know will never be realized.

You mean you hope it'll never be realized.

For my part, I'm hoping that wiser heads prevail.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 01 June 2006 10:27 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree so we have to be clear and realistic with expectations. A two state solution both based on peace, security and democracy is what is needed. Hamas needs to disavow its terrorist agenda, Israel must then agree to firm deliverable discussions that will lead to a viable Palestinian state and a Jewish state side by side.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 June 2006 10:28 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by evernon:
Double standards have always abounded when it comes to Israel

Because Israel is founded on the principle of the double standard.

[ 01 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 June 2006 10:31 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I agree so we have to be clear and realistic with expectations. A two state solution both based on peace, security and democracy is what is needed. Hamas needs to disavow its terrorist agenda, Israel must then agree to firm deliverable discussions that will lead to a viable Palestinian state and a Jewish state side by side.

Yeah, Arafat fell for that. Can you believe it?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 01 June 2006 10:33 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A two state solution both based on peace, security and democracy is what is needed.

But this argument begins with a lie as Israel has never recognized the Palestinian right to a state and, indeed, many Israelis even dispute the existence of Palestinians as a people. And attached to this lie is the added lie that somehow Palestinian violence is less legitimate than Israeli violence. That Israelis have a right to security that Palestinians do not.

Either Israel gives Palestinians full and equal rights as citizens or end the occupation. What is Israel prepared to do? Construct an Apartheid state complete with Bantus.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 01 June 2006 10:40 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A two state solution both based on peace, security and democracy is what is needed.

Israel defines 'security' as 'the right to territorial expansion in the name of acquiring 'defendable' borders.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 June 2006 01:32 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:
The belief that the Jewish people belong in Zion is a tenet of faith that precedes the modern Zionist movement.

I call Bullshit. The notion of "Zion" and "The Return" has not had a steady, constant, agreed to meaning throughout Jewish history. The concept has been considered metaphoric, eschatological, and in it's most recent manifestation (Zionism) through the lense of industrial nationalism. Funny, too, that Herzl's first visions of Zionism were not geographically located in Palestine.

Secondly, if we are to be picky, theologically speaking The Return is the business of The Messiah, not of the UN or powerful Western imperial states, which is how modern nationalist Zionism gained its currency.

But even still, who cares? When did God become a real estate broker? When did we start to allow religious beliefs to determine the ultimate outcome of land claims? Moreover, any game which involves settling property claims by reference to ultimate origins is doomed by the very indeterminate abyss of origins. Heck, the Jews weren't there first were they? Who was? Who knows!

What we do know is that several hundred thousand (or more) Arabs (The Palestinians) were living in the territory which is now Israel prior to the 1948 war. Regardless of explanations or political tint, a broad consensus among historians (Zionist, Post-Zionist, Anti-Zionist) is that a good number of those Arabs were chased out as part of a deliberate policy of the IDF and irregular forces under IDF command. So, rather than a nebulous theological, historical, or cultural issue, there is a basic legal issue - the issue of the illegal expulsion of Palestinians and the continued occupation of lands obtained by force and keeping those lands (and the inhabitants) in a manner contravening black-letter international law.

[ 01 June 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 June 2006 04:28 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:
Well Ken that, perhaps unfortunately, is a utopian ideal which we know will never be realized.

I'm aware that it may never happen. That is not what I asked. What I asked was, were it possible, would you consider that "utopian ideal" to be antisemitic and, in the end, antiZionist at all?

If the Jewish people could have a safe homeland, would that not be enough? Or would having a state in which the Jewish people had the upper hand, even if such a state were always endangered and beleagured, be better for some reason?

Would it really matter who had the power, so long as it were a safe homeland?

That is what I'm asking.

For the record, I favor the two state solution myself at present(it must morally be ALL of the West Bank and not just the worthless side bits the Likudnik-Kadimites are willing to give back for a non-contiguous state that they know would fail and then give them an excuse for annexation)
and I also feel the Israeli government and Israeli supporters owe an apology to everyone that they falsely smeared as an "antisemite" for supporting a Palestinian state in the past. It can NEVER be bigotry to demand justice for the dispossessed. And it was never right to punish Arabs for an event which was the sole responsibility of Northern Europeans.

[ 01 June 2006: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 June 2006 05:05 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Khimia:
Well Ken that, perhaps unfortunately, is a utopian ideal which we know will never be realized.


This is typical rhetorical deflection. The fact is that there any number of states on this planet which, espousing a civic form of nationalism, have found ways to accomodate the needs both of ethnic majorities and minorities. These states, not incidentally but by design, have provided minorities, such as Jews, with greater protections than any single-ethnicity state (such as Israel) has. The rhetoric that such a state is little more than a "utopian ideal" is a funny criticism considering its relative success. Note, too, that Israel has had to expand its notion of who falls under the "Law of Return" and embark upon huge, costly propaganda campaigns to draw worldwide Jewry into the fold. Increasingly, people are leaving Israel and choosing places like France, Germany, England, Canada, and the U.S. because they feel their interests and their safety are better served in such states.

Furthermore, while it is well known that politics makes strange bedfellows, there is a suspicious ring to the criticism that multiethnic civic states are "utopian" for this was precisely the same criticism levelled at them from the right in the hayday of blut und boden nationalism in the 19th and 20th Centuries.

Why is it that it is so simple to see the poliical folly and ultimate instability of narrow ethno-nationalisms in, say, the Balkans, but when it comes to Israel and Jews we are suddenly to be blinded by our romanticism and fall in love with the "one people, one state" ideal all over again.

Anything else, apparently, is hopeless "utopian idealism".

[ 01 June 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged

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