Sorry for dumping this on you ladies, but really need to understand from a non-Oprah/Dr. Phil point of view.

[ 23 April 2005: Message edited by: Panama Jack ]

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]

No. 1, I feel for all the people in this situation and I empathise with your conflicting feelings.

No. 2, there are numerous reasons why people stay in abusive relationships, and I don't know if getting 'reasons' from people on this board will give you much insight.

No. 3, please don't assume she left a 'good' guy for a 'bad' guy. First, human relationships are so complex that it really doesn't work to label some people as worthy and others not (I know you didn't use those exact words), and second, she may have had very valid reasons for leaving her ex.

No. 4, unconditional, non-judgemental love and support are never misplaced. It's also good to be very judicious in judgement even of the 'ex', since women who engage in relationships with abusive men have *very* conflicting feelings: they feel wrong and judged for choosing the abuser, they feel wrong and judged for leaving the abuser; and if they ever go back to him or end up with someone similar, they feel that they have betrayed the people who supported them. Or, they feel they have taken the abuser's side therefore have gone against their other loved ones, which may mean they will feel a need to distance themselves further from their non-violent supporters.

I never understood why she would have hooked up with the loser in the first place. She's smart, totally fun, comes across as a very strong person, and, in the words of at least one drunken chum who saw her one night, "the most beautiful woman in the world".

Sooo...fifteen years on, I thought I'd ask her why she married him. Her answer, "Nobody else ever asked me, and I wasn't sure anyone would".

Unconditional support is important - she likely gets enough judgement from people who fail to understand.

I honestly don't know what your options are. For some reason, people (men and women) are sometimes attracted to very destructive people. I call it the moth to the flame effect, as I've seen it in a number of people.

Look, parents beat the shit out of their kids all the time and their children still love them, in spite of it. Nobody questions the sanity of abused children who love their parents. Women can still love their abusers and hope against all odds that they'll stop the beatings some day. It doesn't mean these women are crazy or defective. It means they have fucked up boundaries and somehow, somewhere, they have associated violence with love. I would look to the family of origin for evidence.

Edited to add: The above statements are a formely abused woman's point of view.

[ 21 April 2005: Message edited by: disobedient ]

Being supportive is a good thing. I think showing concern is important also, but trying to do this without being too judgemental may be hard. Providing help when needed is an important thing to do as a friend or family member.
A lot of people abandon women in these situations, leaving it harder to escape because there is no one to turn too for moral support.

I think what baba yaga wrote was spot on though. Just support your family member, let her know you're there for her no matter what. I understand you're far away from her and I'm of the mind that her partner might intercept supportive communications from her family, including email or snail mail. My mother used to phone me at work so she could be sure he wasn't hovering over me or shredding her letters. It must be terrible to have to watch, I've only seen it from one side. I wish I could recommend books for you to read but I've never really read one that offered any practical advice for family members. One thing that you could do is to find out about local services and agencies that could help her if she does choose to leave him.

quote:

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Originally posted by disobedient:
It means they have fucked up boundaries and somehow, somewhere, they have associated violence with love. I would look to the family of origin for evidence.

Edited to add: The above statements are a formely abused woman's point of view.

[ 21 April 2005: Message edited by: disobedient ]

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I can understand your perspective, but I have to quibble with your assertion about the family of origin. In the case of my sister, there was no abuse in our family (that I know of). I am not saying this as a person in denial, but as a person who was blessed with a very supportive and emphatically non-violent upbringing, which was the exact same upbringing my sister had. Nevertheless, she became involved in more than one abusive relationship as an adult (though she is in a very healthy and positive one now, thank god).

Secondly, I would say that I don't believe people realize they are getting into abusive relationships when they meet someone. As was said in another post the abuser could have been a very loving caring and attractive person in the early stages of the relationship. Abuse is mostly about control. At some point along the way the abuser needs to control the relationship through violence.

Remember that she was a victim and was likely in fear for her life. She probably felt powerless to do anything to change the situation. Be supportive, be empathetic, and never judge her or blame her.

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Originally posted by kellis:
First of all I would say that you should not link her leaving a relationship with a good guy, as you put it, and ending up in an abusive relationship. Her reasons for ending the 1st relationship have nothing to do with the 2nd relationship and if you mention that to her then you are implying that she is to blame for getting herself into this.
[QUOTE]

I do imply it ..... but it is possible to do so without reserving any particular judgement ? The two are connected... in fact the guy in the 1st relationship WARNED her about the reputation of guy #2 to beat women after #2 moved in, especially erate/embarrassed/belitted that a reknowned women beater was going to be living under the roof of his seperated-wife and child. Her ex became much more confrontational re: custody issues after he learned that ass-wipe moved in. We only learned afterwords the full extent as too why...

[QUOTE]
Remember that she was a victim and was likely in fear for her life. She probably felt powerless to do anything to change the situation. Be supportive, be empathetic, and never judge her or blame her.

Good luck.

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My friend actually felt emotionally safer with her abuser than with her friends and family, because her perception of the latter was that we were capricious and judgemental (which frankly we were). We for the most part treated her with at least a teensy bit of derision and judgement, and (in retrospect) treated her like a disobedient child in many ways, reacting to her backsliding by saying we were 'fed up with her', 'disappointed' in her behaviour, 'trying out best' to support her BUT..., etc. NOT to say that we weren't supportive, we WERE, and we were very empathetic, but I can't say any of us supported her unconditionally.

With us she couldn't win except by resisting her abuser completely, but she was so soft-hearted, dependent and insecure that she couldn't at that time. Looking back, I see that - although she was very emotionally sick at that time and displaying unhealthy relationship behaviour with most of her circle - we were setting her up to fail, then making her feel worse when she did.

I'm NOT saying you or anyone else is doing this with your (?) sister, but I encourage you to monitor your behaviour with her and make sure you're not making the situation worse by setting up unrealistic goals for her, infantilising her or creating a black/white, good/bad, right/wrong scenario.

each abused woman has her own story, a different reason for continuing the abusive relationship.

culture and societal pressure are big reasons to stay in such a relationship. in some parts of the world, the woman is expected to dote selflessly on her husband, no matter how he treats her. if she were to run away and seek refuge, or stand up for herself and demand greater respect, she would be considered an outcast and be banished from her society. she would become homeless. if there are kids involved, they are either snatched away from her and she will never have the chance to see them again, or they become her burden because she has no home, no money, no food, no resources. some places don't even offer shelters for abused women, and it's not easy for a woman to find work in such regions. i've seen this happen, and i can't emote enough just how horrible a fate this is. in the woman's mind, it's almost better to tolerate the abuse.

if there are children involved, most women will sacrifice all the happiness they could have as adults if they think it will be better for the kids to stay in an unbroken marriage. (i think this is a misconception). women are more inclined to feel this way if they are financially unable to support their children,.... and why would a woman want to leave her kids in the sole custody of an abusive man?

one of the most common strategies that an abusive man engages in is slowly separating his wife/girlfriend from all her family and friends. it is his way of controlling and monitoring her every move. a point will come when the woman herself speeds up her own isolation process because her husband is much too intrusive. so, if the woman tried to escape the wrath of her husband, she has few or no places to run to. (often times, neighbours don't want to get involved in such conflicts).

going to the police needs courage for some women, especially if they believe they still love their men. some also believe that the love is returned. they want to protect their men from any and all harm. losing somebody you love is painful too. it's a pain they are less familiar with, and prefer to stick with something they know and experience frequently.

low self-esteem could also be a reason why a woman would put up with the abuse, although i don't think it's a big reason. no doubt, though, the woman's self-esteem plummets each day she spends with her hubby.

one of the big, big reasons why women stay in abusive relationships is fear of the unknown. is the woman going to have a roof over her head, is she going to face utter loneliness, are her children going to suffer/stay with her/love her, and on and on and on. fear is a monster that can only grow, if you don't overcome it. lots of things to be fearful about. i know a woman who has become so isolated that she barely knows how the world has changed around her over the last 30 years... technological advancements, cultural/sexual revolutions, etc, etc. she has a routine dictated by her husband, and even when she has step into the outside world, she is only familiar with her routine. if anything occurs out of the blue to upset her routine, she's terrified. i know, it's a horrible, tragic story. all i know is that at this point, it is unthinkable to ask her to step into the outside world on her own. (i am in no position to support her myself). maybe somehow, she will be able to muster some survival instinct buried deep down inside her, but making the first step is more difficult than lifting a truck with bare hands.

panama jack, i don't know what your exact circumstances are. i don't want to be presumptuous and give you a wrong kind of advice. i also don't know if you want advice, or if you just really want to understand why women tolerate abuse from their partners. i hope my post offers you a bit of both. but here's what i've learnt. if your family member really has no place to go where she'll feel safe and loved, you can't expect her to leave. that was my big lesson, and it was hard to grapple with and accept.

I'd love to explain myself more fully, but I'm extremely wary to spread too many details about the situation. [Why I severely clipped the first post]

Needless to say, there were some other circumstances with the individual that probably contributed to this situation arising ... again though, it happened so quickly, and with the court date coming some time soon I'd rather not elaborate except to say that the asswipe preyed upon my loved one when she was in a particularly vunerable (and already guilt ridden)state of mind.

It's bizarre, alot of the posters have been right on ... except the behaviour seemed to be coming from my loved on herself ! I suppose that's part and parcel of the divide & conquer strategy ... at the time, however, we hadn't the slightest clue what he was doing to her, so we attributed her behaviour to choices we thought she was making (ie. avoiding family contact to a bare minimum), and were frankly a little pissed off at the time. I'm proud of my family nonetheless for how things have evolved.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mush:
Sooo...fifteen years on, I thought I'd ask her why she married him. Her answer, "Nobody else ever asked me, and I wasn't sure anyone would".

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I want to corroborate that observation. One dynamic of being in an abusive relationship is the real belief that this relationship is the best life has to offer. One tactic of abuse is to wear down the victim with "loving" disappointment until she believes that there is something fundamentally wrong with her, and that she is unable or unworthy of being in a good respectful relationship.

This is why the ministrations of loving family and friends are often rejected. They feel the same as the "loving" disapproval of the abuser, and they just reinforce the worldview that allows the abuse to continue.

Look at it from the victim's point of view - on the one hand she has an abuser whom she loves and who claims to love her, saying he just can't understand why she would do x,y, and z "wrong" behaviors. Then she has family she loves and who claim to love her, saying they can't understand why she would put up with such treatment, not walk out, etc. They really sound the same. And they reinforce the idea that the victim is somehow messed up and that a good loving relationship is not an option for her. She sees herself causing the same distress to her family that she's causing to her abuser, and sees the common denominator as herself disappointing the people who love her. Sometimes staying in an abusive relationship is a calculated decision - believing you are so defective that this poor relationship is the best one that life has to offer. It's this or nothing.

[ 27 April 2005: Message edited by: vmichel ]