Last weekend, my wife and I were out doing some spring shopping. While my wife was in the change room trying something on, I waited outside at the intersection of girls wear and the full figured section. This not place I wind up in too often, and I made the following two observations.

First, the girls section, where I was, was labeled ages 7-11. In that section many of the clothes, especially the prominently displayed ones, were fairly suggestive and sexual. Shirts designed to show off midriff, or cut to hang off one shoulder, don't really seem proper for 7-11 year olds. The same with some of the pants were on display. I am not sure if I am just becoming some type of prude as I age, but it seems to me there are dangers in sexualizing prepubescent girls. If you dress them as sexually objects, some people may see them in that light.(Of course part of my thinking is driven by the fact I can not imagine my girls dressed like that in just over 6 years.)

My second observation was about the full figured section. The men's wear section, had no big and tall section. I could buy the same pants from somewhere in the 26 to 48 range with no problems, the same with shirts S-5XL, not a problem. Apparently for women however, once you break certain size, you are given your own section, with different designs of clothes, not just up-scaled versions of normal sizes. It appeared to me that most of the designs in this section where just down right ugly, and there was little in the way of professional looking outfits. Apparently, women of a certain size and above wish to dress in gaudy colors and horrible floral patterns. “Hey your fat, you might as well dress like a clown.”

About the "full-figured" section: that has been an annoying phenom for as long as I can remember. The minimally good news is that a few entire chains have sprung up to fight that prejudice -- often they call themselves evasive things like "The Tall Girl's Shop," and while it is true enough that tall women also have trouble fitting into the overstandardized crap that most department stores sell, the stock in such stores will run larger and will be smarter than the muu-muus you describe.

Women who need larger shoe sizes run into the same problems -- they have to go looking for dedicated stores.

It is infuriating to hear that men's departments can cover full ranges, no matter how broad, because it is certainly true that most women's clothiers never could and still can't. Try looking in more pricey boutiques, and you'll find that they carry nothing above a size 12.

You're right, of course. I get so annoyed when, after size 14 or 16, women's clothes change into "fat lady clothes" in department stores. By that I don't mean larger sizes. I mean that the fabrics and styles often change from nice ones into icky ones at around size 14 or 16. Anyone who has seen a nice pair of black dress pants in a size 14 and then finds that the only thing even slightly similar one size up is a polyester horror with an elasticized waist knows just what I'm talking about. The designs often become shapeless, tentlike.

It's true that there are some styles that are not flattering to larger figures. But I can't count the number of times I've been to a store, seen a really pretty article of clothing in a smaller size that is tailored in a way that would also flatter a large figure, but then discovered that past a certain size, practically ALL the tailoring is gone and it just looks shapeless.

Luckily, things aren't as bad as they used to be when I was in my late teens, for instance. Some retailers are wising up, especially since the average size for women is (I think) 14 in North America. Which means that there are a heck of a lot of women OVER size 14 who also want to wear nice clothes, and we're not all "past caring", nor do we necessarily want to cover up every inch of skin we have.

On a related note, I was shocked one time when I went to a lingerie store here in Toronto that carries all sizes of bras, from the very smallest to, I think, specialty sizes like H cups and the like. I had bought my wedding lingerie there years ago, and of course they had white corsets and that sort of thing in all sizes.

But when I went back there about two or three years ago, I thought maybe I'd try to find a pretty bra, something in a fun colour or style. I was prepared to spend a bit of money since I had either birthday or Christmas money or something like that. And I knew they had tons of really neat, colourful bras there. But I was shocked to discover that once they got past size 34 or 36, and a C or D cup, that they all turned into either white, black, or beige utility bras. I was amazed at the stupidity.

However, some chain stores like Cotton Ginny and Addition-Elle carry larger-sized lingerie in similar styles and colours as the smaller-sizes. I will never understand why places like La Senza, for instance, don't carry all sizes for all their styles. They're missing a huge market - I know a lot of women who would buy from them if they carried the same stuff in their size.

[ 17 April 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Professional-type clothing in petite sizes was rare and if you did find something marginally acceptable you'd better buy it right then because if you came back a couple days later, it would be gone.

Things have improved slightly in the last few years and I credit (and thank) immigrants from places where people are smaller. Some designers finally wised up -- short women don't want to look like dolls.

[ 17 April 2005: Message edited by: Amy ]

quote:

---

First, the girls section, where I was, was labeled ages 7-11. In that section many of the clothes, especially the prominently displayed ones, were fairly suggestive and sexual. Shirts designed to show off midriff, or cut to hang off one shoulder, don't really seem proper for 7-11 year olds. The same with some of the pants were on display. I am not sure if I am just becoming some type of prude as I age, but it seems to me there are dangers in sexualizing prepubescent girls. If you dress them as sexually objects, some people may see them in that light.(Of course part of my thinking is driven by the fact I can not imagine my girls dressed like that in just over 6 years.)

---

Yup, we've just arrived at that stage with Ms B. I am really uncomfortable with some of the clothing they make for pre-teens. Since Ms B is very small and has exceptionally long legs, I will sometimes make the excuse (with pants, anyway), that I can't alter them to fit her. I also tell her that the shirts are too wide and won't stay on. So far, she accepts that. We'll see if she still does in a couple of years, though.

quote:

---

Apparently for women however, once you break certain size, you are given your own section, with different designs of clothes, not just up-scaled versions of normal sizes. It appeared to me that most of the designs in this section where just down right ugly, and there was little in the way of professional looking outfits.

---

Yeah, that's a real problem. I often shop with a close friend who has a weight problem (not judgement from me -- she describes it that way herself), and I just can't believe the shabby quality and yucky designs that they offer large women. And if you go to a specialty store for something nicer, you're paying through the nose. It sucks, big time.

I am small, but an odd shape, so I have my own clothing issues. I'm built like a very tall person -- shorter body, long arms and legs -- but I'm only 5'6" tall, not really outside average range. Most pants are too short in the leg and too high in the waist, and most shirts that fit the body are halfway up to the elbow in the sleeve. That usually means having to buy more expensive clothing where they don't skimp on the inseam.

Gawd help me if they stop making low-rise jeans...

Some shopping trips with my friend leave us purchaseless and feeling like exaggerated caricatures.

[ 17 April 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

quote:

---

First, the girls section, where I was, was labeled ages 7-11. In that section many of the clothes, especially the prominently displayed ones, were fairly suggestive and sexual. Shirts designed to show off midriff, or cut to hang off one shoulder, don't really seem proper for 7-11 year olds. The same with some of the pants were on display. I am not sure if I am just becoming some type of prude as I age, but it seems to me there are dangers in sexualizing prepubescent girls.

---

Agreed and parents err by having their children in these clothes.

quote:

---

Luckily, things aren't as bad as they used to be when I was in my late teens, for instance. Some retailers are wising up, especially since the average size for women is (I think) 14 in North America. Which means that there are a heck of a lot of women OVER size 14 who also want to wear nice clothes, and we're not all "past caring", nor do we necessarily want to cover up every inch of skin we have.

---

Are you sure that's true? That just seems wrong.

quote:

---

But when I went back there about two or three years ago, I thought maybe I'd try to find a pretty bra, something in a fun colour or style. I was prepared to spend a bit of money since I had either birthday or Christmas money or something like that. And I knew they had tons of really neat, colourful bras there. But I was shocked to discover that once they got past size 34 or 36, and a C or D cup, that they all turned into either white, black, or beige utility bras. I was amazed at the stupidity.

---

Until I got pregnant I was one of those individuals that didn't have a compelling need for a bra. Life has changed and now all I can find is nursing home bras unless I go to specific stores. You are right. That just is stupid.

quote:

---

Professional-type clothing in petite sizes was rare

---

I'm short. That isn't my experience.

quote:

---

That's really interesting, about petite sizes, fern hill. Being almost 5'7" myself, I've never noticed that because I've never really shopped for petite-sized clothes. Are they really childlike?

---

You will find more "child like" clothing in the petite section because their belief is they are looking at a different younger market. I have found that they have a much broader range everything from child like to professional.

quote:

---

As for clothing - I also hate how the larger sizes are segregated from the "normal" ones and are poorly designed and/or cutesey.

---

quote:

---

I never used to even notice. Now I notice. I personally prefer it.

---

quote:

---

What I mean is that the plus sized women's clothing is segregated in a section that has less choice of styles than smaller sizes and is generally poorly designed. It feels like I'm just an afterthought. The buyers haven't a clue what fits and looks good in plus sizes. Maybe where you shop it's different. I don't shop at downtown stores, hate the crowds. So I go to Zellers, which is closer. I'm not crazy about where most of the clothing there is produced, i.e., Bangladesh, Russia & China, but having limited income is, well, limiting.

---

I mostly buy second hand stores. When I do shop it's not at a boutique usually.

quote:

---

Professional-type clothing in petite sizes was rare

---

Cotton Ginny has about the only trousers that fit me, but of course they are all made in China now, in sweatshops, and aren't always very well crafted. But everything else is too big in the waist to get the hip size ... Odd, men's trousers don't fit me at all, but I guess women are different shapes as well as sizes. I usually wind up wearing skirts and leggings, boho style.

And I miss Cotton Ginny! They closed their outlets in Quebec few years ago.

[ 17 April 2005: Message edited by: baba yaga ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by stargazer:

This is only too true. Not only are they too rare, but as Zoot said, they assume you are a specific body type.

---

That's why the extremely rich can manage to look so good: they buy clothes that they then have altered, or else they buy made-to-measure haute couture - tailored to their actual, also very non-standard bodies.

As for the rest of us, we have to get the fabulous look off the rack, and who has the time to sew?

(For several months after I gave birth, I can remember thinking that there really is something truly beautiful about saris, kaftans and traditional clothing for women from countries far away...but then I realized that kind of dress is pretty limiting in a lot of ways, and luckily, eventually, I got my body back.)

[ 17 April 2005: Message edited by: brebis noire ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by brebis noire:

That's why the extremely rich can manage to look so good: they buy clothes that they then have altered, or else they buy made-to-measure haute couture - tailored to their actual, also very non-standard bodies.

---

A pal who loves to sew and is very good recently made me a pair of trousers. They fit!

quote:

---

Originally posted by fern hill:

A pal who loves to sew and is very good recently made me a pair of trousers. They fit!

She was telling me about her other "clients". It seems we are all weird. One size on top, another on the bottom, I'd heard of, but according to her, you can be one size in the front and another in the back. I'd love to have all my clothes altered properly. But who can afford such things?

---

I've found that when I've had my clothes properly altered they last longer, which means I have to buy less clothes in the long run. The only problem is having the 'start up' capital. I'd like to have a few pairs of pants and jeans made for me this summer when I start my new job; it's been a long time since I've been able to set the exact terms of what clothing I am going to buy.

As far as chains go, I do find that Eddie Bauer carries clothes that fit me well, but not much is made in Canada and it's almost as pricey as getting items made (unless you shop the sales racks, like I do). It does last though, so EB stuff at the thrift store is pricey too, but oftentimes it can be worth it. I find that in Victoria, Value Village is one of the most expensive second hand stores around (and the manager is horrible to everyone she can be horrible to).

Go to Ottawa for pants? That's cute. No really. But it really speaks to the lengths we need to go for clothing that blinking fits! I emailed Cotton Ginny & begged them to at least sell online. No dice.

I bought some sewing patterns for simple pants and tops. It's easy to find the XX sizes in patterns. But do I want to sit around and sew pants? It's enuf I have to hem (I'm 5'4) and taper them, and shorten long sleeves on winter t-shirts. I keep thinking I'll do it someday when I feel like it more. That and quilting. I've been collecting fabrics. Sigh.

[ 17 April 2005: Message edited by: baba yaga ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by baba yaga:
In my neighborhood in Montreal, the Sally Ann has rented a huge space, but it appears the workers are sifting away the good stuff befoe it goes on to the floor.

---

I've seen jeans and trousers in all sizes at Le Chaînon. I don't think they do much skimming beyond the fact that they give clothing and toiletries to the women at their shelter - as they should! Le Chaînon and Renaissance both have "boutique" sections where the clothing is better-quality and more expensive, but it is still not very pricy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by verbatim:
You might also keep in mind that because of social-service cutbacks, the Sally Ann has started streaming some of its donated goods. For example, they often sell rare or valuable books on the Advanced Book Exchange rather than on the shop floor.

---

quote:

---

Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination.

---

If the Sally Ann stores think selling the nicest clothes for more money is helping fulfil their mission, I don't have a problem with it. If their mission was to provide the best quality clothing at the lowest possible price, that would be another story.

Salvation Army Faith-Based Payola:

quote:

---

But according to an internal Salvation Army memo obtained by The Washington Post, the Salvation Army said it would actively support the President's faith-based initiatives in exchange for White House-favored regulations allowing for discrimination.

Such Bush administration regulations would permit faith-based charities that receive federal funds to discriminate against gays and lesbians in the workplace.

According to the published reports, in return for this regulatory change, the Salvation Army is expected to spend up to $110,000 per month promoting the White House's faith-based initiative.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by stargazer:

This is only too true. Not only are they too rare, but as Zoot said, they assume you are a specific body type. I have long legs and long arms and it is very hard to find dress pants, especially ones that are a size double zero. The problem is that while the pants may fit around the buttocks the waists are large. Its as if the clothing manufacturers think small people have no waists and have a 30" inseem. It doesn't make any sense to not supply appropriate and nice clothing to women on either end.

---

Really? I find the opposite -- they have the same waist-to-hip ratio as some of the larger sizes, and most small women don't have as large a ratio. Which means that when I find pants or tailored skirts (skirts are worse for this), the waist is either too small, or the hip has a curve to it that makes a bubble of fabric where they assume I should have more hip. I'm pretty angular, though.

It actually boggles my mind.

It is a bit different as a male, but I have always had a similar experience buying shoes. Once you pass the men's 12 shoe size, about 1 in 8 stores carry anything, and it is usually one pair of $400 shoes.

I wish I had a dollar for every time a salesperson said 'Oh! Size 13... No, we don't have any. You'd be surprised how many people ask me that!"

There is a 'Big n Tall' store for men, but it tends to sell clothing suitable for the office - no sneakers, no court shoes, no t-shirts.

-clip-

quote:

---

(New York City) The Salvation Army is threatening to close soup kitchens for tens of thousands of New York's homeless and walk away from other projects if the city enacts legislation requiring firms that do business with New York to offer health benefits to the partners of gay staffers.

---

Not surprising, but infuriating that a group whose mandate is to help those in need without discrimination is using donations & tax dollars to promote hate. That's what their behaviour amounts to. I wonder what the situation is in Canada, if any overt statements or news of this kind has emerged recently. I'd be up for a public boycott via either buying from the Sally Ann or donating items or money to them until they change their venomous ways.

Anchoress -

quote:

---

And I did mention in my post that the staff might be buying and reselling the clothes themselves; I have a problem with that too.

---