http://www.guylogical.ca/

in this section.

I am appalled by this campaign, but am not surprised by it, given the backlash against feminism that I have encountered in my sojourn in recent years.

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the thing is, this is a dumb game on their part, because all sorts of men eat at tim hortons, and I don't think a lot of them are going to respect tim hortons for a) judging whether they are men or not and b) calling them 'masculo malnourished ' or 'sir chump alot'

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When I think about this, combined with other ad campaigns, it makes me thing how complimentary and misogyny and misandry are. While they insult different genders, they both subtly reinforce patriarchy. I used to feel that these kind of things are worth getting worked up about, but I'm not sure anymore. Given how much society seems to be shifting towards conservatism, maybe there is no battle too small. It can all add up.

Also I'm apparently more manly than my man. Maybe I like bread bowls filled with bacon more.

Edited to make sense because people posted as I was composing.

[ 06 March 2005: Message edited by: dokidoki ]

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post by Michelle:
That's the most stupid thing I've ever seen. I guess they're going for that all-important knuckle-dragging-moron demographic.

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What, you'd expect some other demographice to start frequenting Timmie's any time soon ?

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Also I'm apparently more manly than my man.

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I had that thought when I read their "I eat my chili out of a ..." poll.

Did you notice? There wasn't a box for "out of the pot on the stove."

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Did you notice? There wasn't a box for "out of the pot on the stove."

Wimps.

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Women drink coffee too. They want to cut their market in half?

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Maybe.

Marketing... there must be many examples of where marketing does not make sense. This could be another example. Maybe Hortin's doesn't have as large of the male market as it would like.

I've seen odd things

For example appliance companies marketing in the Arab countries, and showing cuts of pork chops and bacon in the refrigerators or in freezers. Not a sucessful marketing campaign apparantly. Maybe a case of ignorance about a culture in this case.

There have to be many examples of errors in marketing, an stupid stunts and promotions.

I think of the Tonight Show poking fun at advertisements. Most errors are due to poor editing, but some are so surreal, I have no idea what to think.

[ 06 March 2005: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

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it seems to make a lot more sense to be Sir Chump-a-Lot with a happy woman than be lonely ManlyMan jerk. I think I'd get a lot more out of it.

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Originally posted by dokidoki:

Really. Come to think of it, I can hardly imagine anything less masculine than a bread bowl.

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Originally posted by James:
What, you'd expect some other demographice to start frequenting Timmie's any time soon ?

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Mandos, you break me up. You must promise to introduce me to your wife one day.

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Never mind that. Marry ME, Sir Chump-A-Lot! I promise to be very happy if you become my SMOTO* doormat.

(Kidding, kidding!)

Homer, reading: "Oooh look, a survemery from Tim Hortons!"

Homer answers questions.

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Enter your GuyLogical™ Moment. We'd like to read it and have a laugh

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From the guy show to the guy station to this, heterosexual men are portrayed as being just a hair breadth away from pedophiles as they pant over barely post-pubescent girls, concerned only with sports and drinking when not obsessing over breasts, and, on average, just plain stupid.

And men seem to glom onto this portrayal not with offense but with gusto.

so what?! ; it's mildly ironic, no worse, sheesh, get over it

what a waste of time spent in perpetual indignation; unfortunately, that is the core of identity politics, so it's a ubiquitous part of the landscape, esp. at babble

total waste of time

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Geneva ]

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That's what I got first, because I answered all of the questions involving "the woman" with something that might get me in her good books. I mean, I'm single and plan on remaining that way for a while yet, but it seems to make a lot more sense to be Sir Chump-a-Lot with a happy woman than be lonely ManlyMan jerk. I think I'd get a lot more out of it.

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Originally posted by Geneva:
If that is the case, then for once, I am in the target Offended Group!! (yea!!) ,
so I can say, without any harrumphs of indignation : I couldn't care less if this caricatures men,

so what?! ; it's mildly ironic, no worse, sheesh, get over it

what a waste of time spent in perpetual indignation; unfortunately, that is the core of identity politics, so it's a ubiquitous part of the landscape, esp. at babble

total waste of time

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Geneva ]

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Well said, Geneva. The most instructive lesson we can learn from the Tim Horton's campaign is that men apparently aren't freaked out by perceived slights in the media. Identity politics have harmed the progressive leftist cause significantly I think, and eventually its solipcisms and contradictions will have to be examined. It would be very nice if Babble could serve as a forum for this, but I haven't got my hopes up.

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I'll remember that the next time the regressive right begins its hand wringing and whinging over "reverse discrimination" or "father's rights".

And maybe men aren't freaked out because the stereotype is correct.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

The content of the image is important, but who controls / creates / manipulates the image is also important.

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Well said, Geneva. The most instructive lesson we can learn from the Tim Horton's campaign is that men apparently aren't freaked out by perceived slights in the media. Identity politics have harmed the progressive leftist cause significantly I think, and eventually its solipcisms and contradictions will have to be examined. It would be very nice if Babble could serve as a forum for this, but I haven't got my hopes up.

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In a similar vein - has anyone else noticed that its only white guys who ever say this kind of thing about splitting the left???

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That's why I would personally argue that these "dopey guy" images of men are not nearly as harmful to men as similar images of stupid/dopey (or more often, highly sexualized) women are to women.

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Now, if you want a misogynist orgy, lonecat, check out this advertising campaign for a UK chocolate bar called the Yorkie. Yorkie's clever slogan is: It's Not For Girls.

I first spotted it at Heathrow this Christmas ( a football thug was eating one) and I nearly choked on my rage. The chocolate is sold in every cornerstore and supermarket in Britain. [oops, I forgot to read the bit about it being banned in Birmingham and Liverpool)

It comes in two flavours and is yet one more reason to boycott Nestle.

http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_769300.html?menu=entertainment.lates theadlines

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

The housework ones in particular are the ones that are advantageous. Gee, I can't possibly figure out how a diaper works, or how to cook or clean properly - that's why I leave all that stuff to my wife, because she's so good at that stuff. She's so smart! And I guess I'm just dumb. I'll be over here in the la-z-boy trying to get smarter by reading the paper if you need me, honey!

Whereas the stuff that women are traditionally labelled as "dumb" about are things that also favour men. Too dumb/ditzy/whatever for the boardroom. Too dumb to figure out that the guy looking down her top at the bar really ISN'T complimenting her with that double-entendre. Too stupid to figure out that the guy faking a rollerblading injury in the park is actually just trying to get her to coddle him.

It's true, however, that there have been lots of women who have used the same trick to get out of unpleasant traditionally male tasks like mowing the lawn, shovelling the driveway, etc. But when you consider how many more domestic tasks are traditionally done by women, and how many more hours per day women on average* STILL put into domestic labour than their partners do, even when both are working, then I think most guys realize that campaigns like this "guylogical" one really aren't hurting them all that much.

*Yeah, yeah, I know you're the exception and you do everything domestic while your wife works 80 hours a week and the kids barely know who she is. Save it - I was talking averages, not making a blanket statement about all relationships.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by lonecat:
Am I overreacting to this promotion, or is this truly disturbing? I liken this promotion to a misogynist orgy.

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well. it's a question. so i'll answer. i think you are overreacting. sorry.

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there's just so much real and dangerous misogny in the world that to focus on this sort of idiotic advertising is just a distraction.

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And Gir Daxon, shame on you! I tried a Yorkie and the only thing I disliked about it was the offensive packaging. And can you blame women for steering clear of a chocolate bar that uses this kind of advertising????

Sheesh... Chocolate is chocolate, my gender insensitive friend. It's not like we're talking jock straps or something else with a gender specific application.

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And Gir Daxon, shame on you! I tried a Yorkie and the only thing I disliked about it was the offensive packaging. And can you blame women for steering clear of a chocolate bar that uses this kind of advertising????

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seriously... despite my chocolate addiction, i won't touch it. that's just plain mean!

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Sheesh... Chocolate is chocolate, my gender insensitive friend. It's not like we're talking jock straps or something else with a gender specific application.

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Originally posted by Granola Girl:
What is the broken window theory, Wing Nut?

And Gir Daxon, shame on you! I tried a Yorkie and the only thing I disliked about it was the offensive packaging. And can you blame women for steering clear of a chocolate bar that uses this kind of advertising????

Sheesh... Chocolate is chocolate, my gender insensitive friend. It's not like we're talking jock straps or something else with a gender specific application.

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Oh right... forgot my [tounge-in-cheek] tags. Sorry.

Although my anecdote is true, it was kind of funny in an ironic way that the silly marketing gimmick actually applied.

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Anyhow, I find it far less offensive than the sexist commercials we are talking about. No negative stereotpyes are presented, it's just exlusionary in a petty way. Like the "No Girlz allowed" signs little boys put on their treehouses/secret forts/whatevers

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Originally posted by Granola Girl:

Uh..I hate to have to point this out to you, but implying that women are bad drivers IS a "negative stereotype." (Besides, the opposite is actually true - women are far less likely to get involved in car accidents, which is why our car insurance rates are cheaper than yours.)

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Don't get me started on that.

This construction of masculinity is based solely on an exclusion and mockery of women. This exclusion is not harmless, as you claim, because historically men have used these kinds of exclusionary tactics to exclude women from things more important than chocolate, like say, jobs.

And as for your comment re: the packaging, I found it offensive before I ever saw all the print and TV ads which go along with it.

I'm with Ginger and her observations on the Tim Horton's ad, when waaay earlier in the post she suggested a list of other ways that masculinity could have been constructed without having to demean anyone. And I quote:

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This ad points out a 'type' or 'sex' - what I think they should have done instead is give pride to this man - OUR good guys (Husbands-Fathers-Brothers-Sons)Instead of demeaning him - honor him - a commercial showing him as he drives the van, picks up kids (gets coffee), then bbq's, hangs out with his family, then he goes to hockey (gets coffee), plays like a kid - has fun - drives home (more coffee) then rolls into bed smiles at his wife (who reads a BOOK)

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Working at Tim's is a minimum wage thankless job taken on mainly by women.

Often women who are single mothers or otherwise in need of any crappy job in order to support themselves.

Now you get a campaign encouraging men to disrespect women and treat them like idiots. So how is Mr. Knuckledragger going to act the next time is in ordering?

This ad series is a slap in the face to every female employee as well as to the women and men in the general public.

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Originally posted by Debra:
My problem with this campaign is this

Working at Tim's is a minimum wage thankless job taken on mainly by women.

Often women who are single mothers or otherwise in need of any crappy job in order to support themselves.

Now you get a campaign encouraging men to disrespect women and treat them like idiots. So how is Mr. Knuckledragger going to act the next time is in ordering?

This ad series is a slap in the face to every female employee as well as to the women and men in the general public.

The more I hear the ads the more enraged I become.

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Nearly every day, watching British terrestrial television, I see ads for chocolate. I would venture that 90% of these are directed directly at women, featuring stylish, attractive and trendy young women relaxing at home with a movie and a chocolate bar, sitting in taxis realizing they've only got the one Malteaser left and deciding to savour it slowly (cue rising music, the latest hit by Dido), and so on.

The fact that Yorkies are marketed as the polar opposite of all these products targeted specifically at women (if the advertising is to be believed), is just an advertising gimmick, not a backlash against feminism. One could even argue that it's an acknowledgement of the success of women and their importance to chocolate sales that so much chocolate is directly marketed to them instead of to the population as a whole.