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Author Topic: Good-bye white boys club
angela N
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posted 18 April 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just left the Architects and got a job where all the senior staff are women. It's funny how I had no idea exactly how sexist my previous work environment was until now. I knew it was sexist .... but I didn't know it could be so different from that.

Anyone else enjoy a truly female positive work environment?


From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 18 April 2003 05:53 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I sure do!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Thehellyousay
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posted 22 April 2003 03:28 PM      Profile for Thehellyousay        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have had supervisors (both male and female) over the years, and cannot say which is better or worse.

Women can be just as incompetent or capable as the men. The equipment might be different, but the human animal is still pretty consistent straight across the board.

Probably not what the feminist wants to hear.


From: AB | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 22 April 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I find the notion that a senior staff of women are somehow less sexist or incompetant than men or mixed staffing to be very sexist and silly, indeed.

Not to mention that "white" boys is offensive to caucasians.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 22 April 2003 09:09 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Probably not what the feminist wants to hear.

Then you don't know much about feminism and should be careful were you put your foot in Feminist Forum.

Why do some believe that feminists think women are better than men? Women can be just as awful as men and just as sexist. No kidding. I don't know what those qualities have to do with being a femininst and wanting to control my reproductive rights and get paid what I deserve.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 23 April 2003 01:39 AM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've usually worked in offices that are %90 female. If the boss is not a nice person it makes for a miserable atmosphere but the rest of the time it rocks. I've had maybe two superiors (in my *real* jobs at least) who were men, otherwise, always women. I think there are differences. Men tend to be able to seperate work differences and personal differences, and women tend to take work personally. This is only a generalization, but look at any stack of grievances and you'll see what I mean.

All in all I have to say I prefer female bosses and female dominated workplaces. I've also been lucky enough to work in some very multicultural enviroments (hospitals, schools, nuclear plants) with women from all over Asia, South America, Europe and the Caribbean.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 23 April 2003 02:56 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My office consists of ten women, two and a half men (a part timer... not a victim of some freak cycling accident!). I'm not sure I'd call it "female positive" - more like "gender neutral". It's very employee positive, so I guess since everyone has a good thing going gender doesn't become an issue.

I will confess though: it's nice working in an office where nobody punches me on the arm as a greeting, no one wants to yammer on about sports, and it doesn't smell like aftershave everywhere. And some of the conversations I'm privy to would curl your toes!


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Thehellyousay
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posted 23 April 2003 11:02 AM      Profile for Thehellyousay        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So what is feminism about these days? You see so many POV, from those made by a ranting 235lb. lesbian to those put out by pretty ladies that actually have valid arguments and issues.

Is there really any short 'text book' definition of feminism these days?

I am new to this issue, and apologize in advance for my ignorance.


From: AB | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 April 2003 11:17 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You may be new, but you agreed to respect babble policy when you signed up. Your post is discriminatory and bigoted towards lesbians and towards women who weigh more than you would consider acceptable. I have made a complaint.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 23 April 2003 11:17 AM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So what is feminism about these days? You see so many POV, from those made by a ranting 235lb. lesbian to those put out by pretty ladies that actually have valid arguments and issues.

uh, yeah, buddy...for one thing, i'd imagine that many feminists these days aren't too keen on homophobia.


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 23 April 2003 11:17 AM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Right off the bat, I'd say it is about valuing women as individuals based on what they say and do rather than dismissing them as objects that exist primarily for your sexual gratification as you have just done. Deciding whether to listen to someone based on how "pretty" they are is really quite stupid, don't you think?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 23 April 2003 11:19 AM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Men tend to be able to seperate work differences and personal differences, and women tend to take work personally.

My limited professional work experience would agree with this. In the one office I was in (mostly men) there was a very relaxed atmosphere, but also very openly sexist when no women were around. The higher-ups once openly admitted to me that students are hired on a 'looks' basis for the most part. The place I'm in now (mostly women) is a lot more tense because there's some very deep politicking going on - there are definite 'sides' and 'cliques' despite it being a very small (under 15 people) office. But everyone is very polite on the surface and I don't think it really interferes with anyones work. There is also more work being done on average in the current job, which could just be due to the caliber of the people, but I think is more due to the fact that in a "boys only" work situation, there is a very deeply ingrained need to put-off as much work as possible for some reason.

I have yet to see what a really "mixed-gender" atmoshpere would be like. And of course, I'd never base gender speculations based on one work experience in either arena. But I can definitely see some sociological reasoning behind both work experiences and what made them what they are.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 April 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who says 235 lb lesbians aren't "pretty ladies"? One of my dearest friends is a large, fabulous "femme". I'm sure if you suggested to her that she's not pretty, she would be shocked, since she knows darn well that she's hot stuff.

I think I can safely say that most feminists agree that feminism isn't about stereotyping "types" of women. Some lesbians rant, others don't. Some "pretty ladies" have well thought-out arguments and others don't. Some feminist, ranting, 235 lb lesbians ARE pretty ladies.

I'm always wary of people who talk about "ranting feminists", especially when they attach stereotypes to them based on looks or sexual orientation. Some feminists rant, others don't, but in my opinion, women have lots to rant about. If that threatens some men, too bad.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 23 April 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
thehellyousay: If you don't have the intuition to know that such a post will not go over well here, I'll bet you don't last long.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 23 April 2003 12:42 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does anyone else get the chorus to Squeeze's "Goodbye Girl" going in their heads when they read the title to this thread? Or am I just weird?

What about now?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Thehellyousay
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posted 23 April 2003 01:24 PM      Profile for Thehellyousay        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I apologize for the comment, and would like to withdraw it, I don't speak my thoughts well.

There is a wide spectrum of opinion on the subject, from those that are plain bizarre to those that make sense. Perhaps what I am asking is this: is there a popular 'middle ground', and if so, what are the big issues to be found there?


From: AB | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
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posted 23 April 2003 01:25 PM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Does anyone else get the chorus to Squeeze's "Goodbye Girl" going in their heads when they read the title to this thread? Or am I just weird?

um, no. But thanks for the nostalgia trip!

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: vickyinottawa ]


From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 23 April 2003 01:36 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
from those made by a ranting 235lb. lesbian to those put out by pretty ladies that actually have valid arguments and issues.

Hey, I'm a pretty, little straight thing, and I can rant with the best of 'em. Sometimes ranting is the only way to get your valid arguments and issues heard.

And beauty, my friend, is in the eye of the beholder. You are no arbiter here.

I've had a number of different supervisors and managers, over my varied careers and years, both male and female. I'd have to say, if I counted a majority, that I've tended to get on better with the men.

Not that I haven't had some terrific women to work with -- I have. But I've also had some hellish experiences with women in management. The only supervisor who made me cry at work was a woman (I don't cry in public, generally. Not even at funerals). The only supervisor to actively campaign to fire me was female. And the only one to ever spread malicious gossip about me outside the context of my work was female.

Not that the males have been perfect -- but usually all it takes is a single verbal zing, maybe two, we set it all straight and move on. If there's a problem, it's generally above-board and I can deal with it. Some women are able to do this, but we're still playing out the competitive roles we were taught as children, and I think that can be really destructive in a work environment.

Now that I run my own company, though, I like to think that I am one of the good women bosses out there.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 April 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Men tend to be able to seperate work differences and personal differences, and women tend to take work personally.

I'm not denying, as dale says, that we haven't exactly reached gender-neutrality -- that there are gender-based cultures observable in many offices was, after all, the point of angela's opening post.

But the line I've quoted above is so close to the assumption that I remember being made in offices I knew thirty years ago, in a much more openly sexist environment. That women take everything "personally" -- how far is that from fearing that women are going to get all emotional over things, omigod, how will we deal with that, I mean, feelings, the mess of it all, etc.

I well remember that guys who blew up in the office were admired for being forthright and frank and ballsy, whereas the moment a woman tried the same thing, whispers began about how she couldn't take the pressure.

How do we tell the genuine cultures, in their difference, from the assumptions and prejudices of the observers?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 23 April 2003 02:01 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah...after reading that again, I think I agree with you skdadl. It does have an air of 'women are all too hysterical to be out in the work place' to it.

But at the same time, there ARE differences in a majority-male vs female work place. But I think they're sociologically-oriented rather than physiologically. Men and women are still for the most part being brought up to behave in a certain way (whatever that is - men are supposed to be tough and crude and make dirty jokes behind womens backs for example) and placing someone in a situation where they spend all day around people brought up to behave in a similar certain way will usually cause that behaviour to become amplified.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 23 April 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Over the past ten years, I've supervised a mostly male staff, I've been supervised by a woman in an office of mostly women, and I currently have a male boss and I supervise a staff of women.

My observation is that the quality of your work experience is dependent on the personalities of your colleagues and your boss, not their gender, and whether they value of the kind of work you do. I have a couple of colleagues who don't seem to think much of women or their capabilities, but their particular gender bias doesn't effect my work environment because most of the people I work with are really cool.
Now, if the bias of those colleagues was indicative of the general work environment, then We'd have a problem. A big problem.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sports Guy
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posted 23 April 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for Sports Guy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have worked in a number of environments with female supervisors and worked as a supervisor to females and males. Their is no magic ratio of males/females to create a non sexist environment including all female, the key in all environments to eliminating sexism is respect.
From: where the streets have no name | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
sheep
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posted 23 April 2003 04:50 PM      Profile for sheep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I certainly don't think women are too hysterical to be in the workplace...I mean, who would clean hotel rooms, or take meeting minutes, or reorder coffee supplies if women weren't in the workforce?

Skdadl, things have changed in the last thirty years, if you haven't noticed. Maybe it's your own prejudices coming into play here. Women taking their work more personally could also account for the fact that I often find it's the women colleagues of mine who will go the extra mile to deliver services to their clients, while some of the men are more apt to call it a day at 4:30 and leave it until tomorrow.

I don't belive gender has any real bearing on an ability to perform a job, but different gender combinations in the workplace contribute to different workplace dynamics.

And like Mr. Magoo, I'm privvy to a lot of workplace conversations that make me blush. I get a laugh whenever I read about the sterotypical "dirty joke telling" male dominated workplace. Male lockerroom talk is tame in comparison to coffee break discussions with a group of women!


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 April 2003 04:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
sheep, dearest, I know a good deal about going extra miles.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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