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LOWER MAINLAND - The future of female-only gyms and fitness centres could be at stake when the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal hears a complaint of discrimination from a Burnaby man who claims he was denied membership in a Just Ladies Fitness centre because of his sex.

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There are two reasons why I think women's only gyms are OK and even necessary.

1) Weight equipment is set up differently for women. When I work out in a co-ed gym, I usually have to spend a lot of time making adjustments to the machines because most men have longer arms than most women. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part this is true. Gyms set up especially for women can use equipment designed for women's proportions. Co-ed gyms for the most part are designed for men's proportions. Some brands of strength training machines have a wide range of adjustments (Hammer Strength was pretty good, as I recall), but quite a few brands don't adjust well for women.

2) For a lot women, I think in particular for older women, it can be intimidating when men are present. I don't know how to describe this, but the dynamic between women, especially between women of different ages is different when men are present, and that can be discouraging for some women just starting a fitness programme. I've been chatted up while lifting weights, given "free advice" by men in co-ed gyms and that can be really annoying too when I'm trying to finish a workout and I only have a limited amount of time. Finally, I've noticed the cultural diversity is greater in women-only gyms than in co-ed gyms. This is really apparent to me when I lived in Ottawa and tried out a few gyms. The women's only ones had a lot more Somali women than the co-ed ones. I can only guess that this is because there's fewer cultural barriers/fears in an all female environment than in a co-ed one.

If anyone opened a male-only fitness club there would be universal condemnation. Anyone remember the BS two years ago when Tiger Woods played at the Augusta National? Augusta is a country club opened only to males IIRC. I remember thinking it was ridiculous. There are plenty of events which are unisex, but why can't there be one event where men can have erotic peace?

Don't get me wrong, I like women, or womyn, if you prefer, and that wouldn't exclude the types that tone their bodies in fitness centers. But that being said, all men behave differently when women are around, and sometimes they can be a distraction. I could understand why women would want their own gym. They might not want to be hit on in a gym, or, they might not want to seeing the other girls, better looking girls, getting hit on.

Equivalently, I consider the gym to be a very important part of my life, and it's annoying to be tempted by girls I errrr, can't have, for, ummm, the time being. I was doing tricep raises the other day and it requires immense concentration to have proper form. In front of lies standing this absolutely gorgeous woman - what's the singular of womyn? - ruining my concentration. I wish I could have her Why was she just standing in front of me like that? teasing me? Sh didn't even use that bench after!

Also, some studies have shown women can be demotivated when they first go to the gym and they see other better looking people there. Personally when I see the guys who have bigger arms or harder abs it makes me work harder and makes me eat better, but these are feelings and female customers shouldn't be forced to justify them. If they want a separate gym where they could focus on their health and their concentration they should be allowed.

[ 12 August 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]

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DA_Champion: If anyone opened a male-only fitness club there would be universal condemnation.

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Not quite. There's one in Winnipeg.

However.....you can't have your cake and eat it too. Discrimination is discrimination. To say to a man we don't want you here, because of your gender, is blatent and wrong.

As a suggestion though.....If the gym in question was designed more convieniently for women, color schemes, ambiance, ect.....how many male customers would it attract?
The gentleman from Burnaby could have easily joined another gym. For all the trouble he went to to file the human rights complaint, he's just a rebel with a cause.

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Originally posted by DA_Champion:
But that being said, all men behave differently when women are around

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Oh really?

Likewise in non gender defined gyms I find the opposite gender to be a major distraction, but this depends on the type of gym.

There is no real solution to this using the gym as a way of meeting people, for serious gym users it is just a fact of life.

I have learned over the years that going to a gym that looks kinda ratty from the outside but has great equipment inside is the best gym for me. This keeps the socio-fitness users out of the way.

1) In my experience, men do not remove their massive weights after bench pressing or doing anything else and clearly it isn't so easy for a 120 pound person to remove 5 sets of 45 Kgs each.

2) Working out in a woman's gym eliminates the possible tension and fear most women have of doing any sort of weight lifting. Women are not keen on going to the free weight or 'big boys' section because they feel very intimidated.

PART I
FREEDOM FROM DISCRIMINATION

Services
1. Every person has a right to equal treatment with respect to services, goods and facilities, without discrimination because of race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, creed, sex, sexual orientation, age, marital status, family status or disability.

(snip)

PART II
INTERPRETATION AND APPLICATION
Special programs
14. (1) A right under Part I is not infringed by the implementation of a special program designed to relieve hardship or economic disadvantage or to assist disadvantaged persons or groups to achieve or attempt to achieve equal opportunity or that is likely to contribute to the elimination of the infringement of rights under Part I. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.19, s. 14 (1).

Special interest organizations
18. The rights under Part I to equal treatment with respect to services and facilities, with or without accommodation, are not infringed where membership or participation in a religious, philanthropic, educational, fraternal or social institution or organization that is primarily engaged in serving the interests of persons identified by a prohibited ground of discrimination is restricted to persons who are similarly identified. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.19, s. 18.

Ontario Human Rights Code

......

Wow. It's 2005 and *progressives* are still having this argument.

[ 12 August 2005: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]

[ 12 August 2005: Message edited by: Erstwhile ]

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religious, philanthropic, educational, fraternal or social institution or organization that is primarily engaged in serving the interests of persons identified by a prohibited ground of discrimination is restricted to persons who are similarly identified

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Originally posted by kurichina:
Since this is in BC, how about we take the BC Human Rights Code as a template? British Columbians shouldn't need to use Ontario law: they're perfectly capable of drafting their own, just like the big kid provinces to the east!

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Okay, fine, ya big baby.

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Exemptions

41. If a charitable, philanthropic, educational, fraternal, religious or social organization or corporation that is not operated for profit has as a primary purpose the promotion of the interests and welfare of an identifiable group or class of persons characterized by a physical or mental disability or by a common race, religion, age, sex, marital status, political belief, colour, ancestry or place of origin, that organization or corporation must not be considered to be contravening this Code because it is granting a preference to members of the identifiable group or class of persons.

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EDIT: By the way, this section clearly does not allow for men-only gyms, unless the gym is non-profit.

[ 12 August 2005: Message edited by: Erstwhile ]

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Originally posted by Erstwhile:
Why is that that particular company's responsibility, though, Privateer? If the demand's there, couldn't another company open a men's-only gym in the area? (Assuming a men's-only gym would be caught by s. 18 of the OHRC, of course.)

I mean, it's unfortunate you don't have a gym close by that you can go to. At the same time, I grew up in a small town and there are sometimes a lot of things that aren't close by - and not because of discrimination.

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I see nothing wrong with this.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Just to clarify, according to the legislation, men cannot be discriminated against by not being allowed into a woman-only gym.

I see nothing wrong with this.

Jeez louise...

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I don't think anybody's questioning that such gyms have the legal right to do so.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Erstwhile: Have men as a group been historically (and still currently) marginalized in society?

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Originally posted by liberalWho'sVotingConservative:

Try being a white english speaking male in Ottawa looking for a job or promotion up the ladder.

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And raise you a

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Originally posted by liberalWho'sVotingConservative:
Try being a white english speaking male in Ottawa looking for a job or promotion up the ladder.

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[ 12 August 2005: Message edited by: chubbybear ]

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Originally posted by thorin_bane:
But I get pissed becaue I get "Exclussively Women" always sending me adverisement to me because I have my address listed as my first initial. The rates are great, yet I can't get a membership.

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I think one could easily take all the arguments for a 'women's gym' and create a very analogous argument for a male only 'social club'.

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Absolutely. If you ignore history and structural privilege, makes total sense. Why should reality get in the way of ones demands for absolute, uncompromising equality as same treatment? I mean, surely outcomes shouldn't play any role in determining what we mean by equality.

On a personal note, I feel far, far more comfortable in single sex gyms. Partly because equipment does fit better, partly because I'm just more comfortable working out in a single sex environment - I feel less on display. I say that in spite of the fact that my last gym was gay male dominated; their sexuality didn't eliminate my discomfort. Interestingly, though, all my single sex gyms have been subsets of gyms open to both men and women.

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Originally posted by liberalWho'sVotingConservative:

Try being a white english speaking male in Ottawa looking for a job or promotion up the ladder.

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Originally posted by liberalWho'sVotingConservative:
Try being a white english speaking male in Ottawa looking for a job or promotion up the ladder.

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It is difficult for many people to find work in Ottawa. As the Liberals continue further down the road of "austerity measures" and "small government" it becomes harder to find meaningful, stable employment that supports families in Ottawa and across Canada.

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Originally posted by Pogo:
I think one could easily take all the arguments for a 'women's gym' and create a very analogous argument for a male only 'social club'.

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No, you could create an analogous argument for a "men's gym". Or you could create an analogy between "men's social club" and "women's social club" if they both had the same effect and purpose. A "women's gym" and a "men's social club" don't have the same function at all. Apples. Oranges.

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Originally posted by Privateer:
What would a female-only gym do if I appeared gender-neutral with a gender-neutral name, or if I was trying to dress like a women? How much could they invade my privacy to figure out if I could work-out there?

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Originally posted by DA_Champion:
This was the post I posted on the same topic on babble. I played around with the word womyn to prevent flaming. It is babble though, and someone chastised me for implicitly assuming in my arguments that all men prefer women.

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Since you chose to reply to me where I couldn't reply, rather than here, allow me to say here, to your face, that you are a cowardly putz and a troll.

And you were explicitly assuming it.

[ 12 August 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

Since you chose to reply to me where I couldn't reply, rather than here, allow me to say here, to your face, that you are a cowardly putz and a troll.

And you were explicitly assuming it.

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Not only that RB but DA's first post in this thread was one of the most sexist posts I've ever read on babble:

quote:

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If anyone opened a male-only fitness club there would be universal condemnation. Anyone remember the BS two years ago when Tiger Woods played at the Augusta National? Augusta is a country club opened only to males IIRC. I remember thinking it was ridiculous. There are plenty of events which are unisex, but why can't there be one event where men can have erotic peace?

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erotic peace? Oh you poor dear. I wish you nothing BUT erotic peace, in the privacy of your own male bastion.

and

quote:

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Don't get me wrong, I like women, or womyn, if you prefer, and that wouldn't exclude the types that tone their bodies in fitness centers. But that being said, all men behave differently when women are around, and sometimes they can be a distraction. I could understand why women would want their own gym. They might not want to be hit on in a gym, or, they might not want to seeing the other girls, better looking girls, getting hit on.

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patronizing, sexist, lookist, and just plain cruel.

and

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Equivalently, I consider the gym to be a very important part of my life, and it's annoying to be tempted by girls I errrr, can't have, for, ummm, the time being. I was doing tricep raises the other day and it requires immense concentration to have proper form. In front of lies standing this absolutely gorgeous woman - what's the singular of womyn? - ruining my concentration. I wish I could have her Why was she just standing in front of me like that? teasing me? Sh didn't even use that bench after!

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Oh yes, being tempted by those "girls" (gee what happened to the "womyn?" you poor Adonis. Yes, could you just "have her" like one would select a new suit? Just teasing you, she was so you commodified and objectified this person. Keep wishing, with your attitude, I'm sure you exude your own brand of male egotism for a radius of 100 meters.

and

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Also, some studies have shown women can be demotivated when they first go to the gym and they see other better looking people there. Personally when I see the guys who have bigger arms or harder abs it makes me work harder and makes me eat better, but these are feelings and female customers shouldn't be forced to justify them. If they want a separate gym where they could focus on their health and their concentration they should be allowed.

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Yes how nice of you to agree that those fatter and uglier women with the body image issues should have their own place.

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Originally posted by retread:
Actually I have a hard time seeing either women's only or men's only (or any other kind of "only" gyms being discrimatory. The people coming into an organization (or in this case club)

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quote:

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Oh yes, being tempted by those "girls" (gee what happened to the "womyn?" you poor Adonis. Yes, could you just "have her" like one would select a new suit? Just teasing you, she was so you commodified and objectified this person. Keep wishing, with your attitude, I'm sure you exude your own brand of male egotism for a radius of 100 meters.

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Originally posted by DA_Champion:
Lying in the name of political corectness is something I consider cowardly.

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Originally posted by kurichina:

Unless you practise your femininity performance for a very long time, I reckon they wouldn't have to invade your privacy very much at all to figure it out. Just a glance would do.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

Where do you rank slagging someone where he can't respond, asshole?

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What is this all about? Is this another thread you're talking about? You can post everywhere on babble, can't you?

Oh never mind, I figured it out. Duh. I didn't read the quote of DA_Champion closely enough.

I read DA's woman/womyn thing in this thread as more-than-obvious baiting since most people on babble don't use the alternate spellings of "woman", so there was no need for him to do so in order to fit in - obviously he was doing it to make fun of women who use alternate spellings.

And just in case you didn't notice it, DA, this forum is for people who want to post from a pro-feminist point of view. Not for people who come along in order to bait and make fun of feminists.

I think you should stay off babble and stick to FD if the only reason you're here is to troll and then brag about it later to your buddies over there.

[ 12 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

P.S. to DA Champion. Your PM to me was deleted unread. Try replying to people where they address you.

[ 12 August 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

quote:

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Originally posted by DA_Champion:
You have never looked at ANYBODY in a lustful fashion? You can either answer with a lie, or with an answer that would expose you as a "commodifier, an objectifier." Lying in the name of political corectness is something I consider cowardly.

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pearls of wisdom from DA Champion -I consider the gym to be a very important part of my life, and it's annoying to be tempted by girls I errrr, can't have, for, ummm, the time being.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I don't give him any credit for admitting it. The way he described it is crap, as though it's the fault of the women around him that he can't keep it in his pants enough not to get distracted by them at the gym. Oh no, she stood near me and smiled! Gee, I wish I could have her! But I wish she'd quit ruining my concentration! I guess she must be trying to tease me!

Give me a break.

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It's silly to say it's discrimination, at least under our current legal framework (in other words, it's discrimination in the sense that you are disallowing one group of people to join, but it's not discrimination in the context of our laws and power dynamics, etc.). There are plenty and plenty of gyms where men can work out and grunt and listen to hard rock and take showers together, in steamy changerooms, sweat gleaming on fit, cut biceps...

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There's a difference between good old looking and what you have described which I would call "ogling." And with you its ogling and fastasizing in a way that objectifies. But I do give you credit for straight up admitting it on this board.

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I'm normally very respectful, or at least put effort into it. That being said, I'm 21 and I'm not perfect. And please, everyone fantasizes from time to time.

RB:

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

A gym isn't a club, even though it sells memberships. It's a business, no different from a bar or a supermarket.

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quote:

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Try being a white english speaking male in Ottawa looking for a job or promotion up the ladder.

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Thanks, LWVC! Why didn't I think of that years ago! Duh! I *will* try that next time! Gosh darn it you're sooo smart!

AE: you continue to be eloquent and wonderful in your arguments. I'm so glad you're on babble

Finally, this issue is *hardly* on the top 500 list of feminist agenda items, maybe not even in the top 1,000. I haven't received my latest copy of "Feminist Issues That Will Really Piss People Off, Fall 2005 Edition", so I'll get back to you on that.

quote:

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Originally posted by DA_Champion:
I was doing tricep raises the other day and it requires immense concentration to have proper form. In front of lies standing this absolutely gorgeous woman - what's the singular of womyn? - ruining my concentration. I wish I could have her Why was she just standing in front of me like that? teasing me? Sh didn't even use that bench after!

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da, i've tried to avoid you on most babble threads cause you're a fucking moron. i may be taking a chance by violating babble rules, but you're just begging to be called a moron with your senseless baiting. i've had guys like you hitting on me at the gym, guys who think i'm flirting with them just by standing in one spot when i need to take a break or stretch somewhere - 2 things that are extremely important to do while lifting weights. some of these men have been physically attractive, and all of them think they are, but i see nothing but sexist ugliness underneath it all. i spit on boys like you, da. it's one thing to fantasize about somebody, it's completely another thing to stroke your pathetic reason for existence by imagining that somebody is teasing you just because she is standing in front of you. judging by your post, i'm guessing my response to you is doing nothing more than making you laugh. AE, thank you for your excellent reply to his post. i was surprised noone else had commented on it before you, but i guess everybody knew he was just baiting people.

my gym has a women's section and a co-ed section. i use both sections. the women's section has dumbbells that are easier for me to lift - not by weight, but by their sheer size. they're easier for me to balance with my smaller-than-men's hands. i usually only work out in the co-ed section when thwap is with me because my gym is worse than a night-club. there are just too many guys harassing girls, ogling, flirting excessively. one guy asked me out, i said i had a boyfriend already, and he kept asking me every 2 days if i had broken up with my boyfriend yet, and would i like to go out with him. fucking musclehead. the thing that really pisses me off is that i feel like i can't just mind my own business and be myself unless my partner's hanging around me or holding my hand or something. i can't enjoy my freedom as a human being/female when i'm by myself. those are the times that i feel like i'm being owned by a man because other men treat me like i am somebody else's property.

i prefer running in the women's section because i don't appreciate men staring at shaking body parts. a good sports bra can only do so much.

quote:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
But it has been educational to see the level at which progressives really don't get it. The "is it discrimination or isn't it?" argument is so several decades ago.

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Is this aimed at me too? Because I think there's a feminist argument to be made against gender-segregated gyms.

I don't have a problem with some gender "discrimination" if it's used as a way to address a serious inequity. But I think there are better ways of dealing with issues of men hogging the equipment or harassing women at the gym than banishing women to their own gyms.

I remember going to a women only gym one time, which was owned by a guy who was really paternalistic and talked about "his girls" and the whole thing had an air of protecting-the-nice-dainty-women-from-those-big-strong-men about it. It really bugged me. And look at Curves, which is also a women-only gym, owned by some religious right-wing anti-choice paternalistic creep. And even if a gym were owned by a group of feminists for women, I still wouldn't see that as a productive way of dealing with sexism or female insecurity. I feel that it's much more productive to claim equal space in the place where we're experiencing sexism than to retreat into our own sheltered spaces. Take back the gym!

I don't have a problem with women-only spaces when it comes to shelters and community support centres and feminist groups and the like. I don't think that's discrimination. But when it comes to a business that discriminates on grounds of gender, I have a problem with that. And I don't think it's "so several decades ago" or anti-feminist or "not getting it" to feel that way.

[ 13 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

I was not laughing at your post, it hurt me. I didn't come to babble to "laugh," there are better forums for that, I came to see how the other side thinks in a purely curious fashion.

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i've had guys like you hitting on me at the gym, guys who think i'm flirting with them just by standing in one spot when i need to take a break or stretch somewhere - 2 things that are extremely important to do while lifting weights. some of these men have been physically attractive, and all of them think they are, but i see nothing but sexist ugliness underneath it all

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Originally posted by Michelle:
But I think there are better ways of dealing with issues of men hogging the equipment or harassing women at the gym than banishing women to their own gyms.

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I do have a pass to our civic pool, which includes a gym. Mostly, I like swimming laps and sometimes doing a few weights. But most of my exercise is outdoors, some running and a fair bit of bicycling, though I am not a serious cyclist.

How would it be if the public swimming pool were to have men only or women only days or hours? Personally, I don't think it would fly. Why then should a privately owned facility, like retail stores or restaurants, that is open to the public for the purposes of doing business, be permitted to discriminate?

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
I don't belong to any private gymns or fitness facilities. It's not something I need or want to particpate in.

I do have a pass to our civic pool, which includes a gym. Mostly, I like swimming laps and sometimes doing a few weights. But most of my exercise is outdoors, some running and a fair bit of bicycling, though I am not a serious cyclist.

How would it be if the public swimming pool were to have men only or women only days or hours? Personally, I don't think it would fly. Why then should a privately owned fitness facility, that, like retail stores or restaurants, is open to the public for the purposes of doing business, be permitted to discriminate?

Also, I find it hard to accept that women are scared off by the presence of men in a pool or gym. That might be so for some very timid people, just as some men might be too embarassed to swim laps when there some women in the pool who are faster than them. Is that a valid argument for some men only hours at the pool. I don't think so, and therefore I don't think the silly and somewhat contrived statements about feeling uncomfortable when there are men around hold up as a valid consideration.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

But it has been educational to see the level at which progressives really don't get it. The "is it discrimination or isn't it?" argument is so several decades ago.

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Yeah, see, not all of us were out of diapers several decades ago. So there.

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Originally posted by Erstwhile:
Most folks posting accept it's discriminatory to refuse to allow a man into a woman-only gym. It's just discrimination that is legal and/or justifiable.

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I don't know of any precedents or laws stating explicitly that it is legal. The section of the Ontario Human Rights Code cited clearly refers only to a "religious, philanthropic, educational, fraternal or social institution or organization," not a commercial establishment like a gym.

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Originally posted by audra trower williams:
DA_Champion has also been banned.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

For...?

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Yes, the same thing we've done for years in establishments that discriminate against women or allow harassment of women to happen within them - fight for our right to use the service without harassment and discrimination from the management or other clients.

Would we accept that kind of treatment in a restaurant or a movie theatre? Would we suggest gender-segregated establishments for those places?

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i guess i, and others, need to be more assertive and aggressive when we are harassed. my natural response is usually to stay away from the harassers as far as possible. i have actually hurried myself out of a restaurant cause i was being stared at. it never occurred to me that i should complain to the establishment cause i didn't think they would care. thanks for making me re-think my approach, michelle. i am going to try your suggestion of fighting for services without harassment (it sounds so obvious and simple, don't it? ), and if anything interesting happens in the next few weeks, i'll post about it here.

quote:

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posted by masterdebator:
Also, I find it hard to accept that women are scared off by the presence of men in a pool or gym. That might be so for some very timid people, just as some men might be too embarassed to swim laps when there some women in the pool who are faster than them.

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I think it is important to promote public health by allowing conditions that will make people of either sex, different ages, physical conditions and fitness levels, and cultural backgrounds, feel comfortable doing fitness activities.

quote:

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Originally posted by retread:
But more than that, I can't believe that some people seem to be using the weight machines instead of free weights when they go to the gym

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Some of us don't always have spotters....

quote:

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Originally posted by DA_Champion:
ephemeral,

I was not laughing at your post, it hurt me. I didn't come to babble to "laugh," there are better forums for that, I came to see how the other side thinks in a purely curious fashion.

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I've worked out in several community centres across Toronto, and across the country. I've worked out at private health clubs here, and in the States. I've been to the Y, I've used the gym at U of T, and so on. With one or two exceptions, a large majority of the users of the place are men. It's not just an impression -- I've heard women (not prompted by me) say they don't like working out in some of these places because of the guys who are there. On top of self-consciousness around body-image issues, there is just feeling unsafe or uncomfortable, and an aversion to grunting, self-absorbed brutes. I think a lot of guys are ALSO scared or put off by those things, and ideally there would be a remedy for them too, but there are many more men than women who can tolerate it. The places I've seen that succeed at creating a mixed-gender environment are the ones with a strong female staff presence who work to create a certain open culture in the gym. Also, get rid of the freeweights, stick to shiny new machines, and the muscleheads will be gone too. Although I agree, freeweights are far better.

As a person of colour, this hit a (somewhat irrational) chord in me, as I don't take well to being excluded from anything based on physical or genetic characteristics over which I have no control. For example, I used to argue, would we accept a Whites-only gym because some White people feel uncomfortable in the presence of non-Whites? It's an inexact comparison, I know, but work with me here.

On the other hand, I do support a business owner's right to control the environment of his/her private space. Eventually I came around to accepting that a women-only gym has a net positive effect on society, in no small part because it allowed my elderly, overweight mother to find the courage to go to a gym for the first time in her life.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasmus raven:
I've worked out in several community centres across Toronto, and across the country. I've worked out at private health clubs here, and in the States. I've been to the Y, I've used the gym at U of T, and so on. With one or two exceptions, a large majority of the users of the place are men. It's not just an impression -- I've heard women (not prompted by me) say they don't like working out in some of these places because of the guys who are there. On top of self-consciousness around body-image issues, there is just feeling unsafe or uncomfortable, and an aversion to grunting, self-absorbed brutes. I think a lot of guys are ALSO scared or put off by those things, and ideally there would be a remedy for them too, but there are many more men than women who can tolerate it. The places I've seen that succeed at creating a mixed-gender environment are the ones with a strong female staff presence who work to create a certain open culture in the gym. Also, get rid of the freeweights, stick to shiny new machines, and the muscleheads will be gone too. Although I agree, freeweights are far better.

On spotting: I only use a spotter if it's a near-maximal weight. Otherwise I NEVER train to failure, it is not necessary or beneficial. Once the form begins to degrade (or when I'm squatting, once I can't rise as fast), I stop. I've never been close to an accident on any spottable exercise.

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[thread-drift]
Well, speaking for muscleheads everywhere, I find that the weight machine users tend to be more obnoxious than the free weight users. If someone comes up to me telling me I'm "cheating" because I'm using my whole body when doing cleans (you're supposed to, its an olympic lift and you "throw" your body under the rising barbell, then do a front squat to get to standing), its always some machine-based user or even trainer. As well, they're much more likely to want to interrupt my routine by chatting about things (serious lifters are trying to get through a routine, there's no time to talk let alone hit on someone). Self-absorbed? You bet I am; when I'm doing my routine I'm concentrating on it and not much else. Too easy to get injured otherwise. As for grunting, weights are heavy - being upset at grunting in a gym is like being upset at a choir for singing. Same thing for dropping weights after a lift - deadlift and cleans come to mind.

Look, musclehead is another baseless stereotype. There's no correlation between strength and intelligence - really. I've known a lot of very intelligent lifters, and very stupid non-lifters. There probably is a correlation between stupidity and the weenies who come in and do ten different kinds of bicep exercises without doing anything for the rest of their bodies ...

As for spotting, as you say, its not really necessary unless you're doing your one-rep maxes. And I also agree about going to failure - leave one in the rack. You're trying to create micro-tears in your muscles, going to failure impedes the repair process (which is what developes strength).

Okay,sorry for the rant - I'm just tired of the stereotype. [/thread-drift]

[ 13 August 2005: Message edited by: retread ]

Many women work out there, with subpar equipment. There is a reason for that. Why do you think women would be given the subpar equipment? For that very reason I never work out in the women's only area. My philosophy is this: I am here, and have paid, the same as these giant hulking men, so why the hell should I not be able to benifit from the use of the good equipement in the 'big boys' section? As I also stated before, there are literally 3 regular weight lifting girls there at the time I attend. Why do you think that is? It certainly isn't because all women are afraid of weights.

I really wish that SFU evoked "Simon Fraser University" in my head, instead of that familiar internet acronym commonly written as STFU.

[/thread drift]

[ 13 August 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
iworm, I work out at the Good Life at Queen and Young and I can tell you for certain that the 'equipment' in the woman's section is far from good. In fact, it is the toss off stuff from the co-ed gym up on the top floor.

Many women work out there, with subpar equipment. There is a reason for that. Why do you think women would be given the subpar equipment? For that very reason I never work out in the women's only area. My philosophy is this: I am here, and have paid, the same as these giant hulking men, so why the hell should I not be able to benifit from the use of the good equipement in the 'big boys' section? As I also stated before, there are literally 3 regular weight lifting girls there at the time I attend. Why do you think that is? It certainly isn't because all women are afraid of weights.

I am lucky in that at my gym, most males are not 'straight' so I have zero problems working out with them. Were they all straight, I may have an entirely different opinion. The only issue I have is with the guys who refuse to clean off their weights after using the machines.

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Hi, I can only speak to what I've managed to glimpse at a single women-only room, so I won't generalize about the quality of equipment in other gyms. If indeed the quality is dramatically poorer, then that's a travesty. In fact, poor equipment ANYWHERE in a gym is a travesty.

But the fact remains that you still have access to the "big boy" toys, while I don't have access to your poorer quality equipment. And, to be honest, most days I just want access to any machine, quality be damned.

I suppose for me the functional issue is waiting time and breadth of access. When I go to the YMCA, for example, most days I'll happily use the lesser quality equipment and let the serious lifters (male and female alike) have the fancy stuff. With a women-only room, the women have functionally shorter waiting times because they can choose between the communal equipment and their own private (and, in your experience, lesser quality) equipment, while the men must wait in line only for the communal stuff.

(I've heard additional arguments that this is doubly problematic since there are typically more men than women in the weight room, so the demand among males is greater. But I don't think this argument has a place in this discussion since we're talking about rights, not patterns of usage.)

Lots o' weirdos at the gym, including me!

When I was in good shape a few years back, that's when i found out that 1/3 of the male regulars were gay! I didn't have a problem with it except for one guy who knew i wasn't interested but kept coming up with stupid reasons to talk to me or wink at me.
He turned out to be bi though! And he showed up with his girl-friend, a beautiful doe-eyed brunette who I'd seen around the gym for awhile.

My reaction was: "So this is my competition 'eh?" I was pretty flattered after that.

Back on topic!!! There's the "Bad-Boys" gym in Hamilton. I think it's male-only.

Thwap - I agree. I have no problems with people working out in male or female only gyms, but, I do have to say, once again, why is it that many women feel intimidated by the weight room? I'm not convinced it is entirely because women are adverse to using free weights.

Over the last decade more and more women are discovering that to be a pile of BS, and are working with freeweights. I think *finally* allowing women to do weightlifting in the olympics has helped as well - very few men in your typical gym could lift twice their body weight of iron over their heads like Maryse Turcotte (just missed a medal in Sidney); for that matter, very few could get as much weight over their head as she does, period - and she weighs about 60kg.

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Originally posted by DA_Champion:
You have never looked at ANYBODY in a lustful fashion? You can either answer with a lie, or with an answer that would expose you as a "commodifier, an objectifier." Lying in the name of political corectness is something I consider cowardly.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Yes, the same thing we've done for years in establishments that discriminate against women or allow harassment of women to happen within them - fight for our right to use the service without harassment and discrimination from the management or other clients.

Would we accept that kind of treatment in a restaurant or a movie theatre? Would we suggest gender-segregated establishments for those places? I don't think so - we'd complain to the management that we were being harassed, and make an issue of it until they decide to put in anti-harassment policies.

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

I don't think it's customary to give reasons. The banning in and of itself is seen as sufficient to deter others from misbehaving.

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For example, shopping aisles that are too small for people in wheelchairs is, on its face, discriminatory. A tribunal would likely have Safeway to change the design of the store or face some penalty. But an owner of a small corner store wouldn't because to accommodate people in wheelchair woud place an undue hardship on this owner.

So yes, a fitness club that excludes men would be discriminatory. But would forcing these owners to include men place an undue burden on them? I'm sure there will be plenty of testimonials from their female clientele that will express their discomfort with having to exercise with men.

Frankly, I'd be shocked if there hasn't already been a case that decided such a matter. There's got to be a precedent somewhere.

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Yeah, but it's usually pretty obvious why. Here, it looks like DA_Champ was banned for being a heterosexual male who is a bit stupid. Unless he's done something in another thread or abusing people via PM or something, then as a fellow heterosexual male with a penchant for being a little bit of a moron sometimes, my head is next on the chopping block

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I get the impresion it has more to do with his antics on FD, like discussing his actions here. So please tell me that you woke up on the stupid side of the bed today and won't be making groundless accusations about the moderating tomorrow. Why I ever have any patience for you baffles me when you act like this.

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We have segregated the genders when it comes to sports and physical education since forever and no one seems to have too big a problem with it.

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I don't really see a point for it. From kindergarten through grade 10, when I took my final physical education class, I've never been a single-sex gym class, they have always been co-ed. While I do see the merit in having segregated bathrooms/changerooms, I've been on co-ed teams that had one change room/washroom facility, and that has never been a problem. In the case of the gyms, it isn't one sex that's the problem, it's individuals who exhibit rude behavior.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
If you hate it here so much, MasterDebator, why don't you get lost?

Just a question. You're constantly criticizing this place. Why not find a board you like better?

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
Yeah, but it's usually pretty obvious why. Here, it looks like DA_Champ was banned for being a heterosexual male who is a bit stupid. Unless he's done something in another thread or abusing people via PM or something, then as a fellow heterosexual male with a penchant for being a little bit of a moron sometimes, my head is next on the chopping block.

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Few of the bannings have been at all obvious to me, but then I don't follow things too closely. There are others who are allowed to denounce people using any string of obscenities they like, for any reason, or for no reason. If you question the wide berth they are given, you're being provocative.

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Originally posted by Scout:
...So please tell me that you woke up on the stupid side of the bed today and won't be making groundless accusations about the moderating tomorrow.

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Originally posted by Privateer:
All I know is there are two gyms in my neighbourhood - within walking distance - and they are both women-only. Pisses me off to no end. Yeah, I guess I do feel discriminated against.

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I have to bike a terrifyingly discriminate extra 20 minutes to get to the gym when I'm up to it...Rather than going to a gym that is configured for the privacy, comfort and SECURITY of WOMEN.

I think I'm going to have to sue such establishments as SISTERS FITNESS or CURVES FOR WOMEN. They don't make it obvious that they're a women's only fitness club what with only a little sign that says "for women" or something along those lines. The double-standard is causing me to have to go the Y where the equipment is designed for men and is more readily acceptable for larger men. Oh! The humanity! The double-standard discrimination.

[ 14 August 2005: Message edited by: Skeezer ]

Today I was discriminated against again...By a commercial for women

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Originally posted by Papal Bull:
And where is your proof of this HORRENDOUS discrimination that men face EVERY DAY BECAUSE OF THE EVIL FEMINIST MOVEMENT!?
down.

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The words you are putting in my mouth are leaving a bad taste.

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Scout, surely you're not saying that you fully agree with every single suspension/banning call that's ever been made on Babble???

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
yes, its all part of the package.

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Then I would submit that the scenario is fundamentally unfair on pretty much all levels. Men and women join the same club, are charged the same fee, yet one gender is given access to 100% of facilities while the other is given access to less than 100%.

I would not object if there were an appropriate cost differential to address and offset the discrepancy; that would placate me. Ideally, women would be given the option of paying a surcharge to use the women-only room in addition to the communal stuff.

To reiterate, though, I fully support the existence of women-only clubs, as opposed to special rooms.

I want a break on my membership as well, for having to wait in line behind massive guys who refuse to remove their weights and far outnumber me in terms of sheer numbers in the 'co-ed gym' which hardly any females use. I wonder why they don't use them? Guess that latter part does not seem to matter to you, or even what that may imply. I want a refund and break for the amount of time I have to wait around while the men are dominating all the machines. I want a break for when I try to use any of the equipment I wish to use that is currently being used by giant men, much bigger than I. I also want a break for the suffering of having to wait while these men take their time doing bicep curls.

Can you not see why there may be a need for some women to excersize in a women's only gym? How about the fact that a lot of women have been raped and/or sexually molested by men and may feel extremely intimidated and not workout because they feel fear, regardless if that fear is rational to you? Do you understand that women are not all the same? That women DO suffer from a lot of sexual abuse history? That some women may not be at all comfortable with being around such large quantities of men? Oh and don't even get me started on the pool.

quote:

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Then I would submit that the scenario is fundamentally unfair on pretty much all levels. Men and women join the same club, are charged the same fee, yet one gender is given access to 100% of facilities while the other is given access to less than 100%.

I would not object if there were an appropriate cost differential to address and offset the discrepancy; that would placate me. Ideally, women would be given the option of paying a surcharge to use the women-only room in addition to the communal stuff.

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It sounds like you don't have a gym membership. For one, people are not charged the same fee. Married couples often get a discount that aren't given to non-married couples. Gym membership fees change by the hour, it seems.

And two, these clubs provide services that are geared towards specific groups all the time. Many clubs provide childcare services, no charge, for an hour. I have no kids but I have to pay for that program. There are classes just for senior citizens. Youth discrimination! Heck, there were some clubs that provided men-only aerobics classes. They didn't last long not because women decried discrimination, but because not that many men joined.

Besides, there's nothing inside the ladies' only section that can't be found in the general gym. It's only space.

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That would work if the ladies section had the same equipment as the co-ed section, which they rarely do. I refuse to go workout in the ladies section just so some guy can use better equipment than me and not be bothered by the inconvenience of seeing a female on the 'men's equipment'.

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Are you going to suggest that the ladies' sections of gyms don't have treadmills? Since I know the treadmills in the ladies' section aren't being used, then it should be assumed that there *are* treadmills in the ladies' section. They may not have as many gadgets as some of the treadmills in the general area (I don't know, since I can't see that well), but then I see the women on the more basic machines, so that's not it.

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Besides, there's nothing inside the ladies' only section that can't be found in the general gym. It's only space.

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This is your own quote. I told you this is pattently not true. I don't do treadmills. I am not trying to lose weight, I am trying to gain it. Where are you not hearing me? I said that the equipment in the 'ladies section' is far inferior to that in the co-ed section. Do you understand what I mean? All equipment, including the treadmills. I suspect they are the toss offs from the co-ed section. The 'ladies section' at my gym has squat for free weights (too light), nothing in the way of reliable good equipment and a shit load of mats for sit ups. Does this sound like an area where women would like to work out?

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Men have sufficient access to gyms, at least relative to women, and one of the barriers to women working out in gyms is the macho male culture. Ideally we would reform this, but this is a job for generations, and meanwhile women need places to work out. Exclusionary spaces are fine if they are a remedy for inequity.

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This is your own quote. I told you this is pattently not true.

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Okay, what's inside the ladies gym that I can't find in the general gym?

Since I wasn't talking about weights, I really don't care (I don't have to wait 20-30 minutes to use some weight machine).

As for the treadmills and other cardio machines being of lesser quality, I'm not surprised (why should the highest quality machines be reserved to only a particular group of people?). But there are basic cardio machines in the general gym too and plenty of women use them. Frankly, if a person is so particular as to use only the best cardio machine in the gym, they're probably unlikely to go to the gym at the busy time.

[ 14 August 2005: Message edited by: glacier76 ]

Besides thinking that its a crime that anyone should feel bad about themselves for their body shape (anyone who works out gets my respect, no matter how little they can do - I suspect it takes more discipline for someone who hasn't exercised in forty years to start again than some young fit person), I think its not a bad idea to have side areas for men and women who probably wouldn't work out if they had to do it in front of everyone. But I see no reason why anyone (for instance the women in your club) should have to use the inferior equipment just because they're part of the group its reserved for - the best stuff is always in the main area of any gym I've seen.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

Can you not see why there may be a need for some women to excersize in a women's only gym?

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Are you addressing this to me, Stargazer? If so, clearly you haven't been reading what I've been writing, because I have stated my support for the existence of women-only gyms twice now.

To reiterate, my objection is to the offering of women-only spaces in a co-ed gym without modifying the price of the membership.

quote:

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Glacier76 wrote:

It sounds like you don't have a gym membership. For one, people are not charged the same fee. Married couples often get a discount that aren't given to non-married couples. Gym membership fees change by the hour, it seems.

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Actually, I have three gym memberships. Like I said, I take this working-out stuff very seriously. It's true that gym memberships do tend to vary from person-to-person, sort of like negotiating for a motel room. But when it's stated policy to offer more services to one gender than the other, for the same "sticker price", that to me is sexual discimination.

And yes, in gyms there is age discrimination, marital discrimination and other types, as well. But those aren't the hot button political issues we tend to raise a fuss about. They are still unfair, in my book, and I would be pleased to see them addressed, as well.

[ 14 August 2005: Message edited by: iworm ]

quote:

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Originally posted by glacier76:

Besides, there's nothing inside the ladies' only section that can't be found in the general gym.

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I wouldn't expect anything special in there. If there were, like a Smith machine or a Bowflex, now that would be quite the issue for the general members, no?

In my experience, the cardio machines are the most in demand in any gym. I'd be surprised if the women's section didn't have treadmills, stationary cycles and other cardio machines --the very things needed to reduce waiting times overall in the gym. So yes, if I were granted access, I would definitely be using that stuff in busy times. Hence, I don't think it unfair if individuals who are not offered the choice of shorter waiting times are charged less.

quote:

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Originally posted by glacier76:

As for the treadmills and other cardio machines being of lesser quality, I'm not surprised (why should the highest quality machines be reserved to only a particular group of people?).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Can you not see why there may be a need for some women to excersize in a women's only gym? How about the fact that a lot of women have been raped and/or sexually molested by men and may feel extremely intimidated and not workout because they feel fear, regardless if that fear is rational to you? Do you understand that women are not all the same? That women DO suffer from a lot of sexual abuse history? That some women may not be at all comfortable with being around such large quantities of men? Oh and don't even get me started on the pool.

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Surely this is rather extreme. Would the fact that some women have been raped be a reason to have other women-only facilities, say, libraries?

If a woman is intimidated by men in public places that is something she needs to get over, and in no case is that more true that women who have been victims of male violence. With respect I must say that your solution sounds to me like avoidance behaviour, when what's needed is to confront those fears and deal with them.

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

We can't really have publicly owned swimming pools segregated. Why should privately owned fitness facilities be segregated? If members want that, and no one complains, I guess it will get by. But if someone does complain I really have to wonder what a valid justification would be.

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What are you talking about? Family swim? Seniors swim? Youth swim? If swimming pools were never segregated, then why is "public swim" designated a few hours of the day?

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Originally posted by glacier76:
What are you talking about? Family swim? Seniors swim? Youth swim? If swimming pools were never segregated, then why is "public swim" designated a few hours of the day?

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Note that none of these amounts to discrimination by sex. Age perhaps, but not sex.

We live in a culture that's built an unrealistic model of what a woman's "supposed" to look like. (Recent Dove commercials aside.) I imagine the pressure of this standard is a difficult burden to live up to, which is probably why some women work-out. I know others work-out just for their health, and hey, kudos to them. But I gotta be honest, the reason I do it is to maintain my looks and what's left of my youth, to keep my place in the dating food chain. I'm a man, you're a woman, but we're both people. So our motives can't be all that different.

But I do recognize that the body image issue is far more pronounced for women. My girlfriend is a woman whose grace and beauty are simply to me beyond compare. I tell her that every day, and she doesn't believe me. She thinks she's too short, too fat, not blonde enough. It took me being a total goofball by making her look in my eyes at point blank range to see her own reflection and the comment "If you could see what I see when I look at you, you'd never question your beauty again..." to make her believe me. That's a powerful bit of honesty. It's one of those things that, unless you really mean it, sounds like a cheezy line. (And probably does anyway, but I do, so screw you.)

Furthermore - the gym is a place where we sweat, we grunt, we breathe hard, we exude pheromones, our clothes become wet and clingy, showing off things that not everyone is comfortable with. It's not a pick-up joint, or a place to look at women "in a lustful fashion." I can see why some women might be adverse to that sort of thing, and prefer a same-sex gym.

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Originally posted by glacier76:
Even in high schools, the gym is reserved for the BOYS basketball team for a particular time. The GIRLS baskeball team practices at another time. Is this discrimination?

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Actually sometimes it is. Most arenas until very recently (and probably a few still), give boys' hockey teams the choice practise times while girls' teams have generally been stuck with very early or very late practise times. As girls' hockey becomes more popular there's been action around this by parents and teams. I think there might have been a human rights challenge on that in Ontario at some point, but I saw that in a course I took almost 3 years ago, so I don't remember the particulars.

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Originally posted by retread:
Did you notice I (almost) made it through the whole post without making disparaging comments about weight machines?

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Yes, very good. Some of the free weight machismo displayed by both female and male posters in this thread was a little silly, sort of like the hot pepper thread from awhile back.

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
If a woman is intimidated by men in public places that is something she needs to get over, and in no case is that more true that women who have been victims of male violence. With respect I must say that your solution sounds to me like avoidance behaviour, when what's needed is to confront those fears and deal with them.

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MasterDebator wrote:

quote:

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If a woman is intimidated by men in public places that is something she needs to get over, and in no case is that more true that women who have been victims of male violence. With respect I must say that your solution sounds to me like avoidance behaviour, when what's needed is to confront those fears and deal with them.

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If the issue is that some guys at gyms are intimidating, why get rid of all guys?

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Okay, what's inside the ladies gym that I can't find in the general gym?

Since I wasn't talking about weights, I really don't care (I don't have to wait 20-30 minutes to use some weight machine).

As for the treadmills and other cardio machines being of lesser quality, I'm not surprised (why should the highest quality machines be reserved to only a particular group of people?). But there are basic cardio machines in the general gym too and plenty of women use them. Frankly, if a person is so particular as to use only the best cardio machine in the gym, they're probably unlikely to go to the gym at the busy time.

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I'm sorry but are you a little dense? Did you not read my entire post re: substandard equipment? Didn't think so.

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I'm sorry but are you a little dense? Did you not read my entire post re: substandard equipment? Didn't think so.

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Repeat for clarity: the equipment is substandard!!!! And there are far fewer machines, fewer weights, etc.