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BESLAN, Russia (AP) - Camouflage-clad Russian commando troops carried crying babies away from a school where gunmen holding hundreds of hostages freed at least 26 women and children Thursday during a second day of high drama that kept crowds of distraught relatives on edge.

Men and women wept with disappointment or hugged each other with relief as a man read the names of the freed hostages over a loudspeaker. Some of the toddlers released were naked, apparently because of the stifling heat in the school, where the hostage-takers refused to allow authorities to deliver water, food and medicine for the captives.

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[ 02 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

It was officially incorporated in 1859.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Well it would seem that the persons who pereptrated the act have reached that state. One might want to ask what drove them mad?

So, you are saying the Russian invasion of Chechnya has been in process for more that 200 years?

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The history of that particular area is frought with turmoil, and no doubt the rebels have every reason to rebel. I am the first person to say centuries of expansionist attitudes on the part of mega powers is responsible for much of the anger and resentment of smaller powers. And though I only know what I know of the strife from history journals and not first hand, there seems to be a multitude of reasons for Chechnya to be allowed to be a country unto itself as it once was in some capacity.

However, nothing, IMHO, ever justifies the use of children in an act of war. Nothing. No children should die or be harmed for a cause in Iraq (both sides). No children should die or be harmed for a cause in Israel (both sides). No children should die or be harmed for a cause in Panama. No children should die or be harmed for a cause in Sudan. No children should die or be harmed for a cause in Canada, the US, Haiti or Iceland.

Nothing can justify this act. Some might argue (though I think such an argument would be lacking) that some acts of terrorism are justified. Some might even argue that the WTC/Pentagon attacks, the USS Cole attacks, the embassy bombing attacks were justified acts of war and merely renamed terrorism by the opposition. I wouldn't, but I could calmly see a modicum of rationale there.

I am not justifying anything. I am talking about why stuff happens.

Now get on a plane and explain that to the parents of those dead children. Take your time; you'll want to talk to each and every one of them. Don't take 'Go fuck yourself' for an answer; your job is to stay there until you've persuaded them that by being an ethnic Russian and having the nerve to send their children to school, they should have expected to be targets for reprisals for actions for which they had absolutely no personal responsibility.

Then come back and let us know how it went.

[ 03 September 2004: Message edited by: Oliver Cromwell ]

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From CNN

"You know, there aren't 350 people in there, but 1,500 in all. People are lying one on top of another." -- Freed hostage Zalina Dzandarova to Kommersant daily

"Are you crazy? There are 1,020 people in there!" -- freed hostage Adel Itskayeva to Gazeta

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Contributors to Islamic websites known for their extremist content had mixed reactions on the hostage crisis, with some praising the separatists as holy warriors. Others wrote that people should wait until the militants had been identified before implicating Arabs in the drama.

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She recounted how the hostage-takers eventually took off their masks. They had beards, long hair, and spoke with Chechen accents, she said.

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[ 04 September 2004: Message edited by: Mandos ]

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Originally posted by Canamerican Girl:

Some might even argue that the WTC/Pentagon attacks, the USS Cole attacks, the embassy bombing attacks were justified acts of war and merely renamed terrorism by the opposition. I wouldn't, but I could calmly see a modicum of rationale there.

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One of these is not like the others.

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I believe it's been fairly well-established that the majority of Chechens want independence and have wanted it for a long time. It's also been fairly well established that the Russian state and its predecessors have been fairly and unceasingly abusive towards them.

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Where is the evidence? has there ever been a free and fair referedum on independence?

ETA kills people all the time in the name of Basque independence, but in every election in the Basque region of Spain, the pro-independence party gets a maximum of 10% of the vote. Back in the 60s, here in Canada, the FLQ was planting bombs in the name of Quebec independence when back in those days only about 15% of Quebecers had any support for independence.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Where is the evidence? has there ever been a free and fair referedum on independence?

ETA kills people all the time in the name of Basque independence, but in every election in the Basque region of Spain, the pro-independence party gets a maximum of 10% of the vote. Back in the 60s, here in Canada, the FLQ was planting bombs in the name of Quebec independence when back in those days only about 15% of Quebecers had any support for independence.

Just because some sadist go on a murderous rampage it doesn't mean that they truly represent anyone other than themselves.

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Has there ever been a free and fair referendum in Russia about whether or not their military should continue to be in Chechnya, bombing civilians with utter savagery?

1. It's in a strategically significant part of the world.

2. The area was, and still is, subject to UN resolutions.

3. As needs no explanation, it is an historically significant area.

4. Israel occupied and illegally settled Palestinian land.

One reason there has not been many protests is because fear and hate of Islam is in vogue. And Chechens are Islamic. The entire world turns a blind eye to their suffering while waking long enough to condemn the animals trained by us, the West, for being animals.

The question you might ask, and is more relevant, is why isn't the media telling this whole story?
In the minds of most of us, Chechnya doesn't exist except when a bomb goes off. We and Russians don't care about the decades of suffering they have endured for no other reason than they demanded their independence. Do you really expect they care about Russian suffering?

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The Republic of Chechnya, located on the north slope of the Caucasus Mountains within 100 kilometers of the Caspian Sea, is strategically vital to Russia for two reasons. First, access routes to both the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea go from the center of the federation through Chechnya. Second, vital Russian oil and gas pipeline connections with Kazakstan and Azerbaijan also run through Chechnya.

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http://www.russiansabroad.com/russian_history_330.html

[ 04 September 2004: Message edited by: josh ]

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1. It's in a strategically significant part of the world.

2. The area was, and still is, subject to UN resolutions.

3. As needs no explanation, it is an historically significant area.

4. Israel occupied and illegally settled Palestinian land.

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Much the same could be said in Chechnya:

1. It's also in a strategically significant part of the world.(ie: lost of oil and near the cross roads of various major pipleines)

2. The area was, and still is, subject to UN resolutions. (isn't ANY place on earth subject to UN resolution??)

3. As needs no explanation, it is an historically significant area. (I'm sure that to the Chechens and the Russians, Grozny is just as historically significant as Jerusalem)

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One reason there has not been many protests is because fear and hate of Islam is in vogue. And Chechens are Islamic. The entire world turns a blind eye to their suffering while waking long enough to condemn the animals trained by us, the West, for being animals.

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What I want to know is, what is there in Chechnya that makes the Russians willing to endure war and terrorism to hold onto it? Does it have valuable resources? Or are they afraid of a "slippery slope" whereby if they allow it to secede, other provinces and republics, some of them with valuable resources, will want to secede as well?

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Here's a Russian journalist's take on the Chechen war.

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The current conflict in Chechnya goes back to the fall of 1991, when the tiny republic in the Russian Caucasus declared independence. It wasn't a crazy thing to do. The Soviet Union, which once seemed indestructible, was falling apart (and collapsed completely by the end of the year). Russia itself had a convoluted structure, with 89 federation members, each belonging to one of five categories (region, autonomous region, ethnic republic, province, and two special-status cities) with different structures and rights within the federation. The Russian Constitution recognizes the right of federation members to secede—and Chechnya tried to claim this right.

The Chechens' desire was perfectly understandable. As an ethnic group, Chechens had been mistreated by the Soviet regime, and the Russian empire before it, perhaps worse than anyone else. In 1944, the Chechens, along with several other ethnic groups, were accused of having collaborated with the Nazis and deported to Siberia. Their collective guilt established by the order of Stalin, on Feb. 23, 1944, more than half a million Chechens were forcibly herded onto cattle cars and sent to Western Siberia. As many as half died en route, and uncounted others perished in the harsh Siberian winter; the exiles were literally dumped in the open snowy fields and left to fend for themselves.

The Chechens were not allowed to return home until 1976. So by the time of perestroika, virtually all Chechen adults were people born in Siberian exile. No wonder they didn't want to live side by side with the Russians, who had mangled their lives. The last straw came in August 1991, when, during the failed hard-line communist coup, rumors spread that another deportation was in the works. Chechens overthrew their local, Soviet-appointed leader, and elected a new president on a nationalist platform.

Russia had no intention of recognizing Chechen independence. The Kremlin's fears were understandable: With the Soviet Union crumbling, there was no reason the shaky Russian federation couldn't follow. Granting independence to one region could set off a chain reaction. What's more, an oil pipeline went through Chechnya, and a small amount of oil was produced in the republic itself, so losing Chechnya could have meant significant financial loss for Russia. President Boris Yeltsin declined even to negotiate with the Chechen separatists—a traditional Russian disdain for this Muslim people no doubt played a role in his decision—and simply let the problem fester for three years.

...

A shocking and important event preceded the Russian pullout from Chechnya. In June 1995, a group of rebels emerged from what seemed at the time to be a nearly defeated Chechnya and tried to take over the small Russian town of Budyonnovsk. Dozens of armed men ended up barricading themselves in the local hospital, where the patients, including women with their newborns, became their hostages. Russian troops tried to storm the building but aborted the attack quickly. In the end, Moscow negotiated a cease-fire in Chechnya and let the terrorists get away in exchange for the hostages' release. Immediately after Budyonnovsk, Russia started peace negotiations with the Chechen rebels, making the hospital siege probably the most successful act of terrorism in history. It is also the only large-scale hostage-taking that didn't end in a storm.

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Russian intelligence has produced little or no evidence that al-Qaida is present in Chechnya. Russian officials claimed that there were Arabs among the hostage-takers, but this information has yet to be confirmed, and even if it is, it may mean only that foreign men have come to fight on the side of Chechens—something that has happened before and something that happens in every conflict, whether or not a major international organization is involved. On the other hand, it would be surprising if al Qaida had no presence in Chechnya at all. Chechens are Muslims, and they are at war; representatives of virtually every Islamic organization have at one point or another sent missionaries and recruiters to the region. They have also sent money. Researchers of al-Qaida say that, in addition to its own organization, the terrorist network has a number of loose affiliates, essentially freelancers, who get occasional financial support. Most likely, some Chechen groups or individuals fall into that category.

But Russia's terrorism problem is not international Islam. It's a war that Russia started and has continued. Because of terrorism, this war has spread to engulf the entire enormous country.

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Oh ya, and al Qaeda wasn't involved in Spain's 3-11 train bombing either. That was the Basques.