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Author Topic: rabble rumble?
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 February 2006 02:44 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, didn't we have something like that a few years ago, where there was a live debate between two progressives on rabble?

I just noticed rabble rumble on the podcast list, where Judy Rebick and Cathi Bond (that's our MondoBondo from the sniffer!) are going to be debating about "Violent chick flicks"! This should be VERY interesting.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Judes
publisher
Babbler # 21

posted 04 February 2006 07:31 AM      Profile for Judes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup you remember right Michelle. We did a live video streaming of a debate on copywrite and called it the rabble rumble but it proved just too expensive to keep doing it so now we are going to do it by podcast, which I think is very cool medium for it
From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 February 2006 07:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So...which side are you taking, Judes?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 04 February 2006 08:16 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It should be called The Scrabble at Rabble.
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Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 04 February 2006 03:49 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
RabbleMania! BabbleMania!
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 04 February 2006 05:40 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
BabbleMania!

"Not the babble, but an amazing simulation."


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Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 06 February 2006 11:37 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Two days to the rumble. I've had a chance to hear a preview. You're going to love it.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 07 February 2006 09:23 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi gang:

Here's a

rabble rumble poster

Please print it out and post it at your work, school or dorm.

Thanks!
Here's what the hi rez poster looks like. It's 8x10

[ 07 February 2006: Message edited by: Wayne MacPhail ]


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Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 08 February 2006 10:51 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, sports fans, the rabble rumble has begun. Judy and Cathi have made their stands. Your turn. Which side are you on, and why? Have you say here.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
MondoBondo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10611

posted 09 February 2006 03:29 PM      Profile for MondoBondo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm on my side, but I think Judy's


Cath


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Babbling_Jenn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10944

posted 09 February 2006 03:31 PM      Profile for Babbling_Jenn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice, very nice. This is what radio needs more of and I think Rebick and Bond do a great job with it.

One suggestion: keep these coming as quickly as you can because people may not remember to look for it a month down the road.

Now, my response.

I haven't been convinced either way. I agree with Rebick that there is nothing progressive about simply putting a woman in a male role and then saying it's feminist. It's not. It's like buying from a huge corporation because it's run by a woman. There's nothing progressive about that.

However, there is something to be said for playing around with existing male-dominated art -- in this case, cinema. By throwing a woman into the mix, perceptions of these fighter movies can be altered and changed. I have to say that fighting women are far more exciting to me than fighting men...

That said, I think Rebick holds far more weight in her argument. If we're going to discuss the politics of film, we can't just look at the aesthetics of a movie, we need to look at the underlying messages. I think Bond comes up short on that one.

Looking forward to round two...


From: Rural Ontario | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Judes
publisher
Babbler # 21

posted 13 February 2006 03:45 PM      Profile for Judes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
New episode is up now rabble rumble episode two
From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
lexx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12058

posted 15 February 2006 11:56 PM      Profile for lexx     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's my opinion:

Judy does have a point in saying that these women who kill may not be really pushing feminism forward...but at the same time, I can definitely see how Cathi finds them enjoyable to watch. I am a fan of Tarantino, and I think it's really interesting to see a woman in a role like that. He's taken the typical action movie and flipped it around. And the fact that it's so excessive makes me think it's a kinda self-conscious postmodern critique of all those macho-type films...which to me is a good thing.


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Babbling_Jenn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10944

posted 16 February 2006 12:34 AM      Profile for Babbling_Jenn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ryersonian writes about Rabble Rumble.
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Babbling_Jenn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10944

posted 16 February 2006 12:49 AM      Profile for Babbling_Jenn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, I've listened to Rebick's second installment. Even better than the last, I'd say.

While I think that a strong critique of art needs to have a background in art -- Rebick acknowledges that she doesn't know the terminology of film study -- there are some cases when you can cut through the special effects and look at the message.

I did some searching on the internet, looking for feminist critiques of Kill Bill. There are quite a few, but not many that are solid.

This article is from the Guardian Unlimited. It has an opposite view to Rebick -- actually, the reviewer (Molly Haskell) doesn't even agree with the premise that Rebick is basing her argument on. Namely, that Thurman's character "The Bride" embodies feminine traits and lacks many of the masculine traits that are commonly associated with male action heroes.

Here is a quote from Haskell's review:

quote:
And that's what makes Tarantino unique, women stretching their muscles in the action arena without leaving their affections at the door. These are not women simply airlifted into male roles, with the traditional characteristics intact, but action roles conceived for women, with women's sorrows and women's biology, in which they show the strengths and limits of their sex. On the plus side, they're fluid and capable and intuitive, and they aren't dragging around giant egos in constant need of stoking. The downside, in terms of plot and action, is the brake applied by motherhood. A pregnant warrior is one who stops dead in her tracks, when her mind switches channels in mid-stream, goes into nurture mode. Babies are anti-action and anti-climax.

From: Rural Ontario | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 16 February 2006 01:34 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's been a while since I listened to them, so I'm fuzzy on all the details of what exactly was said by whom, but I definitely think that just because it's a female character in a typically male role, doesn't mean it isn't feminist. If all portrayals of women as strong people were through what are typically thought of as female virtues and female roles, it would be perpetuating the idea of having gendered defined roles of what's proper.

Where I definitely agree with Judy (I think...?) is that it has shifted too far, and that women are now ONLY portrayed as being strong if they're in a stereotypical masculine role, using violence to show strength. It is a potential facet of feminine strength, but if it's the only one being displayed over and over, it's potential as bad as showing nothing but strong women, who stand behind their husbands.


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Kinetix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5296

posted 02 March 2006 03:50 AM      Profile for Kinetix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I can appreciate the format and the discussion topic, I can't get past the fact that it sounds like self-indulgent whining. I know that it isn't, but in order for this new method to succeed and grow,can we get the parties involved some radio/media coaching?

Also, would it hurt to spend a little of the budget on a Shure SM-57 microphone? Used it shouldn't cost more than $50, but it'll sound good instead of sounding like it was brought to us from a Bell payphone.


From: Montréal, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 02 March 2006 04:09 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cool someone who knows the prices of used musiccal equipment. Not more than $75 at Long McDicks, used.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kinetix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5296

posted 02 March 2006 11:10 AM      Profile for Kinetix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's a useful skill. The $3 factorydirect mike needs to go, though. You're not voice chatting with your sister in Arkansas; you're broadcsting a radio programme.
From: Montréal, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Judes
publisher
Babbler # 21

posted 05 March 2006 10:58 AM      Profile for Judes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry you don't our style Kinetix but both Cathi and I have worked extensively on CBC radio so if you are complaining about us being non-professional I think you just don't like the informal style of podcasting.
The mikes are another issue. I am using a mike that I also used for CBC documentary recording and I suspect so is Cathi, so it might be the fact that you are used to studio quality recording. Part of the idea of podcasting is that it is informal and not so polished as radio.

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MondoBondo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10611

posted 05 March 2006 01:30 PM      Profile for MondoBondo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey K!

I'm using a top quality studio mic as well and have worked in radio for years. Sorry you don't like the Rumble, but it's a podcast and not meant to follow the format or sound of terrestrial radio.


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Babbling_Jenn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10944

posted 06 March 2006 10:49 PM      Profile for Babbling_Jenn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Back on topic now.

Cathi's response:

I'm not sure how much further this debate can go. It seems that we have now established the two very distinct sides.

Cathi thinks that Kill Bill should be viewed through a historical lens as an homage to 1930s films and female characters within.

Judy thinks this doesn't really matter because ultimately, a film where women's power is judged based on their ability to behave like men is sexist.

I'm not sure that there could be a winner or even an agreement. I'm also not sure if that's something the two debaters are looking for.

Will there be two more installments? What's the next debate? Will it always be between Judy and Cathi?


From: Rural Ontario | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
MondoBondo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10611

posted 07 March 2006 06:33 PM      Profile for MondoBondo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Jen!

I think you're right, we've about babbled ourselves silly on this one. The next installment is sort of a signoff and then we're onto the next one. And it won't be Judy and I, so don't worry

Judy and I are going to start a new podcast on the RPN called Reel Women. We're going to get together for a chat where we turn each other onto a new release or a film we really like. It won't be all film theory, just two gals with different opinions on movies having a yack and some laughs.

What we hope is that it'll give people some alternate ideas of movies they can rent as well as some (hopefully) smart content and entertainment.

Thanks very much for contributing to the fledging bout of the Rabble Rumble. I think we all learned something about the structure of the thing. (I think they should be shorter or at least closer together) And I still live in hope that Judy will cave.

Cath


From: Ayr | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 07 March 2006 07:31 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tarantino's movies set my teeth on edge (except for Jackie Brown, and even parts of that), so I didn't see Kill Bill. But I thought you made a good point, Cathi, about action movies. Given the conventions of the genre, it's hard to see how a female lead can blow things up, or blow away her enemies, or even just defend herself, in a radically different way to her male counterparts.

An exception, though, might be something like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Every fight scene involves at least one woman, yet (as I remember it) no-one's even cut, let alone killed.

You could argue of course that that's a sanitized sort of violence. Though I'd say rather that the movie is (literally) fantastic, or dreamlike. Didn't Ang Lee say that his goal in making that movie was to film "a dream of China"?


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
MondoBondo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10611

posted 07 March 2006 08:03 PM      Profile for MondoBondo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very interesting point Lance about Crouching Tiger. The fight scenes were really dance. Indeed most of the fighting in the martial arts movies are so highly choreographed that they're really musicals. Some more violent than others to be sure. I guess where I'm coming from is that violence is violence no matter who does it and how they do it. Philosophically one cannot condone it in any fashion.

Initially Judy wanted me to rumble taking the premise that "violence empowers women." How could such a thing be true and if it is, how sick it that? But I will say that I thoroughly enjoy these movies and I find *that* quite disturbing.

How easily we all file crazy assed violence under "that's entertainment." Is it just part of the human narrative and it will always be explored? Quite likely.

I only wish that it wasn't exploited so horribly. I do know that when I watch Mr and Mrs Smith that some producer and his goons have done a zillion focus groups and they've determined that putting Angelina Jolie in a tight top and a machine gun is going to sell like hell to the men and that the chicks will like it too. I know they're not trying to say anything remotely more interesting than that.

I do think that Tarantino has a broader artistic canvas to cover and that's why I enjoy his movies so thoroughly. However he is one of those that you either love or hate.

Any thoughts on the idea of the violent narrative? Are we tied to it for all eternity? Is it part of the human story?


From: Ayr | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 07 March 2006 08:38 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Very interesting point Lance about Crouching Tiger. The fight scenes were really dance. Indeed most of the fighting in the martial arts movies are so highly choreographed that they're really musicals. Some more violent than others to be sure.

A good example of that would be Hero, which was sort of Crouching Tiger: The Dark Side (crossed with Rashomon, maybe).

quote:
I do think that Tarantino has a broader artistic canvas to cover and that's why I enjoy his movies so thoroughly. However he is one of those that you either love or hate.

Watching Pulp Fiction, I had the impression he was trying to make a fool of me.

I wouldn't have resented this, particularly, except that I also had the impression he was succeeding.

quote:
Any thoughts on the idea of the violent narrative? Are we tied to it for all eternity? Is it part of the human story?

Hmmm. A tough one. Eternity's a long time; and violent narrative goes back to the beginning of narrative, probably. (I know he came along a long time after the beginning of narrative, but reading The Iliad, you could be forgiven for thinking Homer was revelling in detailed descriptions of brutal -- messy -- killings).

Let it sound trite, but given that violence in the RealWorldTM shows no signs of going away any time soon, I'm sure treatments of violence in film and books and whatever won't either.

[ 07 March 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
hammercoop
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12218

posted 09 March 2006 12:07 PM      Profile for hammercoop     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm a little late getting into this...but one thing that bothers me about this discussion is the division of traits by sex. Violence is violence (whether you like it or not). Having just finished reading "looking for lovedu" (a good read by the way), I was bothered by the same thing --> women are supposed to have good traits and men bad. When women do something outside the expected role, they must be imitating men. The flip side of this is that if I behave with kindness and gentleness, does that make me "feminine" (or even homosexual)? Hardly. This just seems sexist. Shouldn't we simply be aspiring for better values for the human race? If we keep dividing these things up, we only re-inforce the stereotypes and help guide people into the "roles" they are expected to fall into. By the way, I loved the debate...
From: Hamilton | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
MondoBondo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10611

posted 09 March 2006 12:27 PM      Profile for MondoBondo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly! This is the problem I had with Judy's argument. How do you kill in a female fashion? What is a soft way to kill? Why is it only men who are *really capable* of chopping off 600 heads? I know if sufficiently irked (and had that very kewl martial arts training with Pei Mai) I too would be equally able to chop off said heads. And frankly I would love to be able to punch my way out of a coffin rather than just lie in there and cry and pray for somebody to come and get me. Oh dear, I shouldn't go on like this or somebody (probably Judy :-) is going to arrive and slap me. (In a very female way of course.)

To me the argument isn't as simple as women killing like men is vile. We're human. We kill. That is one of the main narratives of our collective experience. At least the collective experience that we knows. (I will confess to being mostly steeped in European history and myth)

Can anybody share another mythic structure that's underpinned by a different philosophy?

I'm probably blasting off all my closing arguments in here.

Thanks for the kind words about the rumble. It was actually a lot of fun.


From: Ayr | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 09 March 2006 02:11 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MondoBondo:
Can anybody share another mythic structure that's underpinned by a different philosophy?

Not that I know much about it, but there is the "trickster" archetype that's supposed to be so common in aboriginal mythologies and some others (certain African ones, maybe? I'm arm-waving here).

You can imagine a different type of action movie in which the hero(ine) used hir brains and quick wits to get out of jams while keeping the killing to a minimum. In fact there is such a type. Jackie Chan sort of works that corner, applying his wits to the choice of how to fight in this or that weird situation, or what nearby props to grab when he has to improvise a weapon.

To me, that would be (is) a more entertaining kind of movie, because more akin to comedy than your typical action movie, where the humour -- if any -- tends to be of the gallows kind. (Obviously people find Tarantino's movies funny -- for reasons I don't get, but whatever -- but then he doesn't really make your typical action movie). Whether the lead character is male or female I'd find less important.

Actually that last bit isn't quite true. I wouldn't have liked Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon nearly so much had it lacked either Michelle Yeoh or Zhang Ziyi.

(edited because I couldn't spled Zhang Ziyi).

[ 09 March 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lexx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12058

posted 09 March 2006 07:56 PM      Profile for lexx     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quick note about the rumble....

does anyone have any suggestions or feedback on the format or anything else regarding the podcast? after our first run, we've realized that the one-episode-a-week thing is a bit drawn out and we're gonna tighten it up a bit and make sure that we don't over-discuss a certain topic. other than that...any comments?


From: London | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 09 March 2006 07:59 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe each episode could have two minutes (or whatever) of one person making a point followed right away by the other's rebuttal. It would make it sound more like an actual conversation (or formal debate).
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 10 March 2006 02:03 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a good book written about the trickster archetype across cultures... i'll try to find the title.

Lord Krishna is definitely a trickster in Hindu mythology, both in his form as the divine cowherd, a naughty child stealing and breaking things, then lying about it, and later, as a supreme tease/sexual siren attracting the cowherds male and female; and in the form wherein he appears in the Mahabharata, an older man, a king, who by various devious and unfair means orchestrates the victory of the Pandavas (some people speculate these gods were originally unrelated figures later conflated, which makes a certain amount of sense).


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scott
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 637

posted 10 March 2006 05:20 PM      Profile for scott   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by 'lance:
Maybe each episode could have two minutes (or whatever) of one person making a point followed right away by the other's rebuttal. It would make it sound more like an actual conversation (or formal debate).

What works best probably depends on how people listen to it. Since I am on a slow commection and I don't have an mp3 player, I convert them to wav files, wait until I have a disk full, then burn them to re-writable CDs which I play while I am working.

So the rumble did sound like an actual conversation because I heard them all together. In general smaller bites are better.


From: Kootenays BC | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Judes
publisher
Babbler # 21

posted 27 March 2006 04:04 PM      Profile for Judes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Judy and Cathi are back with their own new show
Reel Women It won't always be a debate but it will always be fun and interesting.

Feedback is, as always, most welcome


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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