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» babble   » walking the talk   » feminism   » Dating a "non-feminist" woman....

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Author Topic: Dating a "non-feminist" woman....
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 16 February 2003 03:50 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Back when I was in dating mode (15 to 20 years ago...:eek , it used to puzzle me as to how many smart and otherwise self-confident women were not feminists. Of course, there were a number who weren't feminists, but happened to agree with the entire feminist agenda ("I'm not a feminist, but..."). I'm thinking more about those who repeatedly put up with sexist remarks and behaviour, who sometimes echoed those remarks, who refused to stand up for themselves and other women.

In a lot of cases, society discourages women from espousing feminism. There is/was a perception that "feminists don't get dates". But, even when I made it clear that I supported feminist ideals, some of them wouldn't agree with me and would argue on the side of the patriarchy.

Any thoughts?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 February 2003 06:30 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They likely weren't old enough to realize the down-side of patriarchal society. When women are young, they are at their "most valuable" and they're at their least experienced. Most women I know who claim to be "against feminism" are women who haven't experienced the kind of discrimination that those of us who are feminists have either experienced or seen other women experience. Either that or they're privileged women who benefit from the patriarchal system - rich wives, "church ladies" with status, etc.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DingleBall
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posted 16 February 2003 10:37 PM      Profile for DingleBall     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can only think of mean things to say about those women.

I know a lot of them, and many are far from young and inexperienced. They tend to be very insecure, and their worlds revolve around men and what men think of them. Being a feminist would be bad, because men don't look kindly upon feminists. 'Cos we're so unattractively natural with opinions and backbones and stuff.


From: Halifax, NS | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 17 February 2003 06:26 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Most women I know who claim to be "against feminism" are women who haven't experienced the kind of discrimination that those of us who are feminists have either experienced or seen other women experience. Either that or they're privileged women who benefit from the patriarchal system - rich wives, "church ladies" with status, etc.

Only if it were so easy to slot people into pigeon holes. I have met many older women who are anti-feminist and at the same time independent business people. They definitely relate to the status quo positively but it has nothing to do with them being anyone's bimbo or church lady. It is all about class for them even if they would be horrified at a class analysis.

I find them less offensive than rich young women who have grown up with privilage and spout feminist logic to give themselves even more privilage. I went to school with women like that and it seems the nicer the silver spoon they were used to the more they believed in affirmative action.

I personally am way to political an animal to date someone for long who is at polar opposites to my political world view. After a date or two it becomes way to frustrating trying to talk to someone who thinks the Alliance is right on and shopping is the most important thing a citizen can do.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
cowgirl
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posted 18 February 2003 12:44 PM      Profile for cowgirl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So how are we defining feminism? i know, it's the oldest question around, but it's still really important. Some feminists want to make a life out of raising their family, some want to be able to be a partner in a law firm. Some want both. All may or may not consider themseleves 'feminist.' Some may not consider themselves to be, simply because they understand the word in a different way than others who would call them 'feminist.' It's a difficult line to define.

For example, 'lipstick feminists' obviously consider themselves feminist, but other people don't consider them to be. My personal bugbear is people who think that women in the third world are not feminist because their interests are not the same as feminist interests in the developed world. It is all very dependent on culture.


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Candace
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posted 18 February 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for Candace     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The term "feminist," one must remember, has only been in use for the past century or so. Prior to that f-word, women used terms such as "women's rights" and "women's movement(s)," etc. And I still think that's okay... Not to divide women into more feminist/less feminist categories. If a person is striving for human rights, what difference does a label make?
From: Fredericton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Man With No Name
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posted 20 February 2003 11:48 AM      Profile for Man With No Name     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I asked my woman this morning before she left for work if she was a feminist. She said 'let me do what you do, and we'll call it normal'. But then she added, men truly get it when divorce rolls around, and that's not right.

So really, it's about human rights.


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Lima Bean
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posted 20 February 2003 12:00 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I asked my woman this morning before she left for work if she was a feminist. She said 'let me do what you do, and we'll call it normal'. But then she added, men truly get it when divorce rolls around, and that's not right.

I have to take exception to this. It's not very cool to speak about your significant other as a posession, as in "my woman". Just be a little more thoughtful about your words--especially around here in the feminism forum, dude.

[ 20 February 2003: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


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Man With No Name
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posted 20 February 2003 02:46 PM      Profile for Man With No Name     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
LOL

It's called a 'term of endearment'. She may refer to me as her 'man' (if I'm lucky ) when others are around. I could call her my girlfriend or common-law wife if you want to get technical.

Back on topic, my ladyfriend with whom I share a home with has always been tomboyish. To not share in the general principles of feminism (equal opportunity, etc) would be out of character for her. Most people who believe in these general principles are feminists deep down anywho.


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Weltschmerz
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posted 20 February 2003 03:00 PM      Profile for Weltschmerz     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My wife and I ran into this situation recently as well. I consider my wife and I to both be feminists; I consider her parents to both be feminists; and she has an aunt and uncle who fit our definition of the term as well. But their daughter (my wife's cousin) is one of those young women (18) who has grown up seeing "feminism" as a bad word, even though she has a perfect example of a strong and successful feminist in her own mother! We got into a discussion about it recently, and it threatened to become quite heated (one thing my wife and her cousin have in common is that neither likes to lose an argument) and we basically had to agree to disagree.

I believe in her case that it does have a lot to do with her age, but also her peer group and many of the attitudes of the media aimed at women her age. She is an intelligent, independent thinker, and I think as she gets more experience her attitudes will change, but it's weird to see these kinds of beliefs in what I thought was a new and enlightened generation.

End of Ramble.

Cheers,


From: Trana | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
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posted 22 February 2003 08:37 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They tend to be very insecure, and their worlds revolve around men and what men think of them. Being a feminist would be bad, because men don't look kindly upon feminists. 'Cos we're so unattractively natural with opinions and backbones and stuff.

I don't think this is a very fair opinion. If a non-feminist said that she doesn't want to be a feminist because she doesn't want to wear coveralls, doesn't want to quit shaving her legs and armpits and doesn't want to turn lesbian, shit would hit the fan.

Lets not tar each other with mass generalizations. It doesn't help the feminist cause.

Personally, I think the advent of girl power shows that females want to take pride in themselves and be nobody's second banana. Feminism just needs better marketing to shed the ridiculous connotation of hairy, whip toting man-haters.

On the personal side, I consider myself a feminist. I took a course on Philosophy of Feminism and barely agreed with one iota of it. It was interesting, but too abstract. More practical things need to be studied.


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Michelle
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posted 22 February 2003 08:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um wasn't the word "philosophy" your first clue that it wasn't going to be a hands-on course?

There's a place for feminism in practice and a place for feminist philosophy. If you're not interested in the philosophical angle then I'm surprised you took the course.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
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posted 22 February 2003 09:01 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, philosophy was a clue. However in similar philosophy courses, like say ethics, abstract principles find real life instances. Philosophy of Feminism was the only such course I noted which resisted the application of abstract philosophy to real life situations.
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Puetski Murder
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posted 25 February 2003 11:46 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On the non-hijack tip (is this better, Scott?) is anyone actually dating a non-feminist woman?

An honest to goodness buy me flowers, open doors, make decisions for me type of lady? Or is it less drastic and black & white than that?

I have a proudly non-feminist friend. She hates the word and dates according to traditions well found in the 1950s. This speaks volumes for the kind of men she dates.


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Sine Ziegler
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posted 25 February 2003 11:51 PM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
!!! OH my gosh!! Your name is DINGLEBALL! Very very close to dinglerberry. ee hee heee
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audra trower williams
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posted 26 February 2003 12:02 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's a knitting thing.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
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posted 26 February 2003 12:13 AM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
..as in sweaters and so on?
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Sine Ziegler
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posted 26 February 2003 12:13 AM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oh
From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 26 February 2003 12:37 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, a hangy down pom pom.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DingleBall
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posted 26 February 2003 08:51 AM      Profile for DingleBall     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey! Did I tell you that Audra, or is it something everyone knows? If it's the former, I'm very flattered. If it's the latter, my Dad is not as whacky as I'd previously thought.

Hey Puetski, I can only write about my experiences in the matter. Also, I don't see anything in my post that says all non-feminists are like that. Also, I like to be facetious. In fact I prefer it.


From: Halifax, NS | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 26 February 2003 11:23 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
She may refer to me as her 'man' (if I'm lucky )

I dislike the idea of being thought of as anyone's man. It conjures up images of back-woods gapped-tooth ignorant yokelism. *bleck*


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 26 February 2003 11:28 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I prefer "hunka hunka burnin' love," myself. Or "stud-muffin," for short.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 26 February 2003 12:10 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Really, pax?

Hee. I often use "my man". It's more meant as a jokey term of endearment with a sensual connotation than a possessiveness thing. But then, I've been heard using "baby" as a term of endearment too. Generally with the same kind of tone.

Mr. Right can call me "baby" or "my woman" anytime he likes, as long as he's a feminist (or pro-feminist if you prefer) who treats me with respect.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 26 February 2003 12:27 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm with Ms. Copps on this one -- I'm nobody's baby, dude
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 26 February 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'm ALMOST nobody's baby. Nobody gets away with calling me "baby" except Mr. Right. And even Mr. Right better be pretty darn "left" before he gets away with it too.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
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posted 27 February 2003 12:01 AM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Also, I like to be facetious. In fact I prefer it.

Thats good.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 27 February 2003 03:50 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think its the connotation of the word "feminist" that makes it seem bad in society. For many, "feminist" has been warped to mean something along the lines of "lesbian, man hating, mean spirited egotist". This is not what feminism is about. I am a man who prefers women who stand up for themselves and have self-esteem, etc. Women who stand up to discrimination, and are able and willing to have discussions on very serious topics (politics, etc.).

What I don't like is the perceived view of feminism: the misandrists who view men as inferior animals and that the perfect world would not inlcude humans with Y chromosomes.

And so to me the "I'm not a feminist, BUT..." line means that they ARE feminist in the traditional sense, however they wish to avoid the evil stereotype.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marx
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posted 27 February 2003 04:52 AM      Profile for Marx     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"able and willing to have discussions on very serious topics "

non-feminists need not apply?


From: we may not convince you, but we'll convince your children | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 February 2003 11:07 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
lesbian, man hating, mean spirited egotist

While certainly not every feminist fits this bill, anyone who does fit this bill will certainly identify as a feminist (and probably believe that any other 'feminism' isn't really feminist enough).

Has anyone ever considered a name change? One name for those who really DO wish the world were free of men, and another for those who are working for equal pay, reproductive freedoms, safe environments, and other things that men can conceivably support?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 27 February 2003 11:15 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While certainly not every feminist fits this bill, anyone who does fit this bill will certainly identify as a feminist (and probably believe that any other 'feminism' isn't really feminist enough).

That's fine with me. There's more than enough room for feminists of all stripes.

Not only that, but any feminist I've met who has been like that stereotype (and I've hardly met ANY, btw), is generally like that because they've been hurt so badly by the men in their lives that it's a form of self-protection. I have no problem embracing those women even if my experience and my outlook is not the same.

No. I don't want a name change. I like feminist. I am a feminist. So are the women of your stereotype. I have no problem embracing a diversity of women in my feminist vision.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 February 2003 11:35 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough, but surely you can't then criticize men who don't care to be associated with some of the more "man-unfriendly" stripes? It's a little like expecting people of colour to want to join and support the National Alliance, no?

BTW, it wasn't *my* stereotype. Most of the feminists I know (and the one I married) are more concerned with social structure than gender.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
bevy
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posted 27 February 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for bevy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't even know where to start. It drives me nuts that men can think, especially supposedly left-minded men, think they can define a woman's politics for her. Decided or debating wether the woman you are dating is feminist or not is ridiculous. stupid even. Regardless of her politics or lack of politics she is a woman and has experience as such beyond what a man could experience. If I ever once more hear a lecture from a so called feminist man about what is feminism or how my feminism should be "better" or more radical or less radical - I will cry, get angry, scream. The point is boys,that i don't need your advice on how to be a good feminist or how to act as a political woman. the point is if you love the woman you are dating you wouldn't lecture or determine, or disect her - you'd do what any good feminist should do - listen to the women in your life.
From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 February 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Er... my only point is that if feminism (however you'd like to define or practice it) is overtly anti-male, or tolerant of anti-male speech or behaviour, then why would men want to identify as feminist?

I'm not speculating on how many feminists take an anti-male stance (I suspect it's a minority), but I do notice that many feminists who would not describe themselves as anti-male are very tolerant of others who take this stance. I also notice that many feminists of late have wondered why young women and most men won't take on the label "feminist".

So I'm suggesting that a small minority has made it a "bad" label, like "skinhead" or "born again". And I wonder why, if feminists wouldn't mind having a generation of young women, and a half a world of men join their cause, they don't speak out? Is it a dogmatic "solidarity" with the Andrea Dworkins? Or do many women agree with them ?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 27 February 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Er... my only point is that if feminism (however you'd like to define or practice it) is overtly anti-male, or tolerant of anti-male speech or behaviour, then why would men want to identify as feminist

i don't mean to poke my nose unwantedly in a feminist thread, but I sort of get the imprssion that it's similar to calling people "responsible activists" where you have 95% who really are, but the other 5% are loud and destructive and because of this, the whole movement gets crapped on.

I took a fair number of womens studies classes in uni and the majority of feminism is not anti-male, it's pro-female which aren't necessarily the same. Of course it's a big field of thought so there are many different opinions involved, some of which are anti-male (for lack of a better term). I think a lot of men feel threatened by it though and try and find anti-male topics everywhere they can. There was always 1 or 2 guys in the classes who were there just to fight and disprove everything.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 February 2003 04:43 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I took a fair number of womens studies classes in uni and the majority of feminism is not anti-male, it's pro-female which aren't necessarily the same.

I don't disagree with this whatsoever. What I wonder is why this majority, which is not anti-male, is so tolerant of the factions that ARE. Why respect ANY bigoted or hateful attitude?

quote:
There was always 1 or 2 guys in the classes who were there just to fight and disprove everything.

Hecklers. They weren't there for the right reasons. Many women's studies professors would throw them out on their ear & rightly so.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
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posted 27 February 2003 04:47 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
never mind

[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 February 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Expecting male-friendly feminists to be responsible for anti-male feminists is as useless as expecting tolerant right-wingers to be responsible for racist right-wingers.

I'm not expecting anyone to "be responsible for" anyone else's behaviour. But if someone behaves inappropriately and you support it then you need to take responsibility for your own behaviour.

To be specific, why do so few women speak up when the anti-male faction has the floor? If a man says that women are the cause of all problems in the world & we'd be better off without them, I'll say something if I can, and if I can't, then I'm sure as hell not going to excuse him after the fact by saying "well, men represent lots of different opinions & it's important that we have this diversity". That's simply not diversity that the world needs.

I know it's not easy challenging someone's views, and sometimes there's reasons not to, but we certainly aren't obligated to respect opinions that we don't share.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 27 February 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What I wonder is why this majority, which is not anti-male, is so tolerant of the factions that ARE. Why respect ANY bigoted or hateful attitude?

What makes you think we are entirely tolerant? Or that we respect bigoted and hateful attitudes?

I've run into the more extreme brand of gender-feminists in my dealings with the academic community (where more gender feminists thrive than elsewhere), and I often point out that I disagree with their standpoints, and where their arguments are weak. The one thing that is absolutely clear to me is that going in for a toe-to-toe scrap with these ladies is pointless. I'm not going to change their minds, nor will they change mine. And I'm just not up for a perpetual roundy-round of hostility and aggravation.

Since they're in the vast minority, can you not just let it go? Is the male ego so weak it must have approval on all fronts? I tend not to think so.

So beyond saying our piece and living our lives in an equitable and tolerant fashion (remember, we find ourselves exhibiting a level of "tolerance", if you want to call it that, for chauvinist attitudes that we have no control over on the male side, too), what, specifically, would you have us do, Magoo?

[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
bevy
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posted 27 February 2003 05:02 PM      Profile for bevy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My point, Mr. Magoo is that feminism is overtly woman postivie (thank you Dale) As a young woman who identifies as feminist I can tell you that I expect the men in my life and community to support me in solidarity. That would be what I call a feminist man. Not someone who whishes to debate me on how I can improve my politics to appear more male friendly. I just wish to mention that in all political "groups" there are a variety of politics within. I also identify with being a leftie, how ever it doesn't mean I appreaciate all others under that umbrella and certainly not all of their tactics.
From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 February 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The one thing that is absolutely clear to me is that going in for a toe-to-toe scrap with these ladies is pointless.

Made all the more futile if you actually call them "ladies"

quote:
Is the male ego so weak it must have approval on all fronts?

This makes it sound more like ego or conceit. I just want to know that if I accept the label of "feminist" that I'm not supporting, explicitly or implicitly, anyone who is bigoted toward me because of my sex. To switch from gender to race might make it easier to understand. Would you ask a black friend to attend a meeting at which even a small minority of virulent racists would be welcome?

quote:
what, specifically, would you have us do, Magoo?

Do like you. Disagree, either actively or passively. The same as you would for racists at a peace march.

That, or be upfront about your beliefs. You can call this plain cynicism if you'd like, but I get the feeling at times that many women wouldn't criticize the anti-male feminists because at some level they agree with them. In the same way that right wing Christians "denounce" the kooks that kill abortion doctors, but not too loudly, lest anyone think they've changed sides. I think that some women wouldn't identify as anti-male, but when someone says "All sex is rape" then inside they're thinking "right on sister!". I don't want to be anywhere near that.

For the record, I do nearly all of the cooking in our house, nearly all of the shopping, half of the cleaning, and I work so that my wife can finish her PhD. This Christmas she gave me several cookbooks and a sushi bowl, and I gave her a jigsaw and a book on building your own hand tools. I have no interest in either having, or being, a traditional spouse.

Just between you and me, I'd describe myself as a feminist man (and so would she), but not in public. I'm happy to live it, but not so much to say it. Anyway ZC, thanks for the comments.

quote:
Not someone who whishes to debate me on how I can improve my politics to appear more male friendly.

Well, I'm assuming that your politics are already "male friendly". If not, I won't be debating you... I just won't be supporting you either. I'm not trying to take over feminism; I was just responding to this comment, right above where I chimed in:

"For many, "feminist" has been warped to mean
something along the lines of "lesbian, man hating, mean spirited egotist".

Thanks also for your comments.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 February 2003 10:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This makes it sound more like ego or conceit. I just want to know that if I accept the label of "feminist" that I'm not supporting, explicitly or implicitly, anyone who is bigoted toward me because of my sex.

See, that's the problem. It's all about who you are supporting rather than about what the women who call themselves feminists are supporting.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
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posted 28 February 2003 03:27 AM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have long said I am the least femiist woman I know. I still believe this to be true. But after going through this thread, the lines got a little blurred for me.

I am neither in the rich class, nor the church lady with status class. I am all for mutual respect between the sexes, but fully expect to get called baby, sweetie, sugar at some point in my life by someone who is not my significant other. I never exect to be able to ALWAYS be able to open my own pickle jar. I don't think I need to have a large group speak for me and claim to tell the world what it is that I want. I do think the partner in fun should be consulted if a baby is the result. I do think that we naturally refer to the unknown person as "he" and I'm of the belief that God is a he. I don't have any desire to play football or hockey - but I do expect to raise a few eyebrows on occasion when the guys figure out that I DO actually know what I am talking about. And that's ok - I'd do the same thing if a man started spouting the best way to get a stain out of silk. I don't need my own rock festival, gym, golf and country club, or nightclub. If the guys do - well that's their business not mine.

So, I'm still not sure which side of the coin I lie on, but as I still think the guy should pay for the date, turn up with flowers, and open doors for me - I'm gonna stick with non-femminist. So long as they ask what I want for dinner before ordering it for me.


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 28 February 2003 04:31 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
it's similar to calling people "responsible activists" where you have 95% who really are, but the other 5% are loud and destructive and because of this, the whole movement gets crapped on.

Exactly. The man haters are in the minority, however they are a loud one. And I have no patience for someone who calls me a useless opressive animal based on the fact that I am a male. And therefore, I could not maintain a decent relationship with someone who secretly agrees with them and tolerates their bigorty.

I am not saying that "traditional" relationships are good OR bad. That is for people to decide for themselves. But I am vehemently opposed to misandry, since I believe in equality.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 28 February 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey shelby!

We've had this chat before.

This is the issue, you don't know where you stand, but yet you want equal rights and equal pay for both men and women, yes?.... I think that in itself defines feminism, does is not? All the rest is varied opinion.

I would describe myself as a feminist.

I would describe both my parents as feminists and my Grandmother as a feminist.

But, I have some things that don't fit the stereotype of "feminist". I'm anti-abortion and I accept that men and women are different creatures. We aren't blank slates that can be completely conditioned.... a concept that I find to be pervasive in feminism, but, AGAIN, that is most likely a generalization and a stereotype.

I like having the door held for me, and flowers and such, I'm not going to complain. But, I'll change my own oil and would have no qualms building a chicken coop. It's all a matter of taste and preference and culture, as someone else already mentioned. However, fundamentally, I feel that men and women are equal and deserve equal (not identical) treatment. Therefore, I would still define myself as a feminist.

On to the topic of the thread, I have a relative who is very much not a feminist. She fits Michelle's young and immature (and well, a little on the stupid side) category. She wants to find a man who makes a lot of money so she can hitch her cart, put her feet up and not have to "think so much." They do exist. My husband ain't married to one though. lol


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
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posted 28 February 2003 03:15 PM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um, yeah, I was getting at the notion that those who do the same job should be paid the same wage... but that isn't a definitive of feminism, at least I don't think it is.

I am grateful to those who have gone before me and afforded me the right to vote, to become a doctor, to no longer be considered someone's property. However, I draw the line at making women special because they are women. I think the feminism movement got a little out of whack when it started heading in the direction that women were special and deserved to be treated better than men. I get into trouble for saying so quite a bit, but IMHO that's where feminism has gone, and I want no part of it.

Good to see ya Trinnity!!


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 28 February 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However, I draw the line at making women special because they are women.

Then you might want to read the Onion article, Women Now Empowered by Everything a Woman Does


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 28 February 2003 06:18 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fascinating article that I can't quite understand. Does it really mean that society is allright just the way it is and it is only the woman's view of her lot in life that needs changing. Scrub the toilet no problem thats empowering, go to Walmart and shop from the sweatshop selections, thats empowering?

Or is the missing piece that anything can be empowering if it is a conscious descision? If that is the case then what happens to the analysis about patriarchy leading woman into roles that are not healthy or empowering?

Help!!

edited P.S. I haven't dated anyone in decades that wasn't a feminist although some of the women didn't like the term because it had negative connotations for them. My current "spouse" would likely call herself a trade unionist before calling herself a feminist but that is the lens she sees the world through the most.

For me it is about dating intelligent, strong, self assurred women. In my experience it seems it would be hard to find a woman fitting that description who wouldn't be a feminist of some variety.

[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: kropotkin1951 ]


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 28 February 2003 06:28 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um... the Onion is a satirical rag. That says a lot about the writers, though, that they can be taken seriously.
From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
angela N
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posted 28 February 2003 06:32 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I loved the article... I feel empowered for having read it. Simply having the ability to read it is empowering. I especially find that saying the word empowering a few hundred times a day helps me to feel good about myself.
From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 28 February 2003 06:33 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about umpiring?
From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
angela N
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posted 28 February 2003 06:37 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
saying the word 'umpiring' just isn't the same.
From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
rabble-rouser
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posted 28 February 2003 06:39 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But have you ever tried DOING it? You might find that empowering. Or how about empiring. GWB seems to enjoy it.
From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 28 February 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And like all great satire it takes a prevailing idea that is not quite fully formed and takes it to its logical conclusion thus pointing out the inherent ridiculousness of the original idea.

My, my even on babble I have seen women citing some of the things in the article as empowering.

So do any of you grrrils resemble this remark.

quote:
Whereas early feminists campaigned tirelessly for improved health care and safe, legal access to abortion, often against a backdrop of public indifference or hostility, today's feminist asserts control over her biological destiny by wearing a baby-doll T-shirt with the word "Hoochie" spelled in glitter.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 02 March 2003 03:00 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey! Did I tell you that Audra, or is it something everyone knows? If it's the former, I'm very flattered. If it's the latter, my Dad is not as whacky as I'd previously thought.

You told me, darlin'


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 02 March 2003 03:32 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
kropotkin, that's the paragraph I thought best encapsulated the nub of ironic relevance. I think the article is basically pointing out how the post-modern rinse has diluted feminism and added it to the list of political movements that are nothing more than brand names.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barry Stagg
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posted 02 March 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for Barry Stagg   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Feminism as unfair advantage results in many free thinking women rejecting it just as we all appreciate the absurdity of that useful saying: "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others,"
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 March 2003 04:25 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And let me guess. "Free thinking" women are the ones who agree with what YOU think feminism should be all about, right?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 March 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
once more, and you're gone, Barry! Which I suspect is what you want, anyway.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 02 March 2003 04:58 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
once more, and you're gone, Barry! Which I suspect is what you want, anyway.

What did he do wrong? Disagree with you? Perhaps he does not like feminism... isn't everyone entitled to an opinion?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 March 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. And if you want to discuss why you think feminism is a bad thing, then don't do it in this forum. This forum is specifically for debating feminist issues from a PRO-FEMINIST point of view. Take it to the politics forum if you want to start a thread on why feminists are making your life miserable.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barry Stagg
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posted 02 March 2003 07:09 PM      Profile for Barry Stagg   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Feminists certainly do not make my life miserable, in fact the fundamentals of gender equality are axiomatic for me. On the other hand, doctrinaire cant should not be confused with a cohesive feminist ideology. If pro-feminism is adhering to some sort of de facto secret handshake(Feminist Freemasons??) then you will lose many potential supporters. Insofar as being excommunicated from this debate, let me leave you with a quotation from an early proto- feminist man: " 'Like a dog' he said; it was as if the shame of it must outlive him."
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1425

posted 03 March 2003 12:31 AM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is the male ego so weak it must have approval on all fronts?

Yes! Yes,dammit. Finally, a woman who understands. Was that so hard?


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 03 March 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This forum is specifically for debating feminist issues from a PRO-FEMINIST point of view.

I certainly wouldn't come to this board to heckle, or disrupt for the fun of it, and I can see a need to keep hecklers out, but at the same time, how much "debate" can there be under a restriction like this?

It's a little like deciding that the Politics board is for debating politics from a PRO-CAPITALISM point of view. It immediately disqualifies some ideas from participating. How is that better than a free exchange of ideas?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
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posted 03 March 2003 10:58 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr. Magoo, you are free to go through all the old threads in the feminism forum to learn why it is the way it is. Part of the problem is that people like you ask feminists to educate you, and we'd like just one little slice of virtual space where we can have intelligent conversation without being dragged down by ignorance.
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 03 March 2003 11:03 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bad analogy, Mr. Magoo. It would not be like having a politics forum that is pro-capitalist only. It's like having a politics forum that is pro-politics only. It would get pretty tiresome having a bunch of people come into the politics forum saying, "I don't know why you're even talking about this or that. You politics people are a bunch of nerds. Who gives a shit about politics anyhow? Politics is useless. Why are you even talking about this? Everyone who is interested in politics is (such-and-such stereotype and namecalling)."

If you think there is no debate among feminists, then you don't know much about feminism.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 03 March 2003 11:29 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
rabble-rouser
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posted 03 March 2003 12:17 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Having thought about this thread off and on over the weekend, I keep coming up with the same question:

How is it that we average, garden-variety equity feminists are being called to task for tolerating the chauvinist attitudes of radical gender feminists, when chauvinist males, who outnumber said feminists, are tolerated by reasonably pro-feminist males on a much more frequent and regular basis?

Think about it, fellas. Do you pay full price to watch such movies as Cradle 2 the Grave (replace the title with practically any other action flick), where the only female presence serves to show us a boob shot in a tight shirt? How about such comedies as Shallow Hal or The Hot Chick (you can replace those, too, with a score of other titles, you know exactly what I'm talking about, here.)? Because if you do, you are supporting the media construct of woman as dehumanized sex object, and in such an insidious way that there is little defensive action that feminists can take.

See, most guys will chuckle along at sexist jokes and pronouncements of male superiority, and then congratulate themselves for just not doing the same. It's not enough. You guys should be speaking up, and in a general sense, you don't.

So if you fellas who feel wounded by the rantings of a small minority of women, reactionary misfits though they may be, you might want to consider what they are reacting to. And then you might want to see if you can show us just how we should stop tolerating this sort of exclusionist sexism on the feminst side by doing something more about those sexist male attitudes on your own side.

Just a thought.

[ 03 March 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
angela N
rabble-rouser
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posted 03 March 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
tell it like it is zoot!

i love zoot


From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 03 March 2003 02:15 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is this the sort of thing we should speak out about?

quote:
A woman was very distraught at the fact that she had not had a date or any sex in quite some time. She was afraid she might have something wrong with her, so she decided to employ the medical expertise of a sex therapist.

Her doctor recommended that she go see Dr. Chang, the well known Chinese sex therapist. So she went to see him.

Upon entering the examination room, Dr. Chang said, "OK, take off all you crose." The woman did as she was told.

"Now, get down and craw reery reery fass to odder side of room." Again, the woman did as she was instructed. Dr. Chang then said, "OK, now craw reery, reery fass back to me." So she did.

Dr. Chang slowly shook his head and said, "Your probrem vewy bad, you haf Ed Zachary Disease, worse case I ever see, dat why you not haf sex or dates."

Confused, the woman asked, "Oh my God, Dr. Chang, what is Ed Zachary Disease?"

Dr. Chang looked the woman in the eyes and replied, "Ed Zachary disease is when your face rook Ed Zachary rike your ass."



From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 03 March 2003 02:41 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why did you post racist and sexist garbage, Mr. Magoo?

Unless your answer is a good one, this is gonna get you a warning.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 March 2003 02:51 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but at the same time, how much "debate" can there be under a restriction like this

I don’t find it restrictive at all, as feminists don’t all agree on every issue and apparently not all women are feminist, some are just freeloaders.

And yes, I did say freeloaders and I do mean it. Anyone who profits from another’s labour with out lifting a finger or offering support is a freeloader. Why should I beat around the bush about it? You can claim not to be a feminist and enjoy all the benefits feminists have wrought for you all you want but don’t expect me to respect you.

quote:
Um, yeah, I was getting at the notion that those who do the same job should be paid the same wage... but that isn't a definitive of feminism, at least I don't think it is.

Um, yes it is.

quote:
I am grateful to those who have gone before me and afforded me the right to vote, to become a doctor, to no longer be considered someone's property.

Oh, how nice for you to reap all the benefits with some lip-service gratitude and not bother to do your share. Or support the movement that allows you the life you lead today. I have two words for women like you and they aren’t Merry Christmas.

quote:
However, I draw the line at making women special because they are women. I think the feminism movement got a little out of whack when it started heading in the direction that women were special and deserved to be treated better than men. I get into trouble for saying so quite a bit, but IMHO that's where feminism has gone, and I want no part of it.

a handful of individuals feel a certain way doesn’t mean an entire movement has gone in that direction. I don’t know a single feminist that behaves in the manner you accusing the movement of supporting. And as a feminist I take serious exception to your uneducated opinion about where Feminism has gone.

quote:
Exactly. The man haters are in the minority, however they are a loud one.

What Zoot said.

I may not agree with all feminists but I am open to dialog with them, I support them and call the odd one to task when needed. But I see no reason to play nice with the “I’m not a Feminist but…” crowd.

Mr. Magoo: There is no relevant reason for you to post that joke. This is a thread about dating a non-feminist woman. Get out of the Feminist Forum. You obviously haven’t done your homework, as asked and are just trolling.

And it’s especially nice to see you picked a joke that makes fun of the Chinese accent as well. Charming, your mother must be so proud.

Considering this threads topic, there is no good reason to have posted this joke and I think it deserves a warning, we all know how many crap joke exisit already, we didn't need to read yet another one.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 03 March 2003 02:52 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since the thread has turned towards our responsibility to speak out against sexism, I thought I'd post it and see who spoke out against me and what they said.

Then I wanted to see if their attitude towards the "joke" changed when they found out that it's actually copied from Michelle's web site


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 March 2003 03:03 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Since the thread has turned towards our responsibility to speak out against sexism, I thought I'd post it and see who spoke out against me and what they said.

The thread addresses that issue but who do you think your are to set up a social experiment in the Feminist Forum? Yet another guy trying to show us how to be feminists.

quote:
Then I wanted to see if their attitude towards the "joke" changed when they found out that it's actually copied from Michelle's web site

I don't give a shit where you got it or what you think your up to, your out of order.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 03 March 2003 03:03 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1. I still don't like it.

2. We have no control over Michelle's website.

3. Michelle had the good sense not to post the joke on babble, let alone in the feminism forum. I still don't understand why you feel you've got the right to post such an offensive thing here.

4. I'm sorry her dad told it to her. I'm sorry she was moved to post it. I'm sure she'll do some explaining if she's asked to. I am looking forward to her private e-mail to me. I'm sure she would have sent a private e-mail to you, had you asked for an explaination. As it is, it looks like you're using this joke, posted on another site, to score some cheap points while not addressing the substance of Zoot's post.

5. I see you are one of those guys who like derailing the feminism forum. Good for you. I'll be treating you accordingly from here on in.

6. Perhaps we could start another thread about sensitive men's responses to sexist and racist men, but this thread actually already has a subject, oddly enough, and that's not it. Having written that, I did love what Zoot had to say.

[ 03 March 2003: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2946

posted 03 March 2003 03:04 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Magoo - I'm not sure what makes you think you are in a position to be doing sociological experiments on the rest of us. At best, you were trying to stir up a little shit and justify it afterward. The joke is offensive, no matter where it comes from. The fact that you are posting here as a representative of the male gender with such an attitude is equally as offensive. There is nothing constructive or productive about such an "experiment". I think you should apologize.
From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 03 March 2003 03:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yep. It was an email joke sent to me by...I think my father.

I thought it was funny when I got it. That's why I posted it on my personal web site - I knew that the few family and friends who read it regularly would like it. I have never posted it on babble though, knowing that there are those here who would NOT appreciate the humour.

There are a bunch of other jokes that I laugh at that would be considered sexist or possibly racist (although gags based on accents or "cultural misunderstandings" make me laugh because when I was married my husband and I got such a kick out of the accent or language differences that came up due to coming from different countries).

I actually don't consider myself a non-feminist for laughing at "dumb blonde" jokes. I recently saw a web site with a gigantic archive of "clean" Jewish jokes, maintained by a Jewish guy who has a web site with all sorts of information about pretty much all things Jewish. Did I laugh at those jokes. You bet your life I did. Will I be posting them on the Israel threads or the Middle East forum any time soon? Not bloody likely.

There's a time and a place for that stuff. My own personal web site is my own time and my own place. I refuse to apologize for what I find funny.

[ 03 March 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 03 March 2003 03:16 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think you should apologize.

To whom? I quoted someone's website.

Before I explained myself, the "joke" was racist, sexist garbage. Now that I've explained why I posted it, I'm the sexist, racist garbage.

Fascinating.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448

posted 03 March 2003 03:18 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You seem to have missed the point, Magoo. Whether I approve of the joke or not is immaterial. Michelle has the right to her own sense of humour. Now, I can spend my life running around pillorying people and labeling them as "good" or "bad" feminists (I don't, btw, think Michelle is anything other than a stand-up gal and perfectly good feminist to boot), but that would be a waste of my time and energy.

What I am saying is that there is a fuck of a lot more anti-female sentiment out there than anti-male. Anti-opposite-gender slagging comes out of the mouths of men 9 times out of 10. So clean up your own gender before coming in here and whining about how tough on you the women are.

I have no patience for this sort of game-playing.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2946

posted 03 March 2003 03:19 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't say you were the sexist racist garbage, just that you posted something in very bad taste in an inapropriate manner. I would have said so too before you explained it, I just didn't read it then.
From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 03 March 2003 03:32 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Before I explained myself, the "joke" was racist, sexist garbage. Now that I've explained why I posted it, I'm the sexist, racist garbage.

No, the joke is still racist and sexist, and garbage, to my taste in jokes. Your use of it is cheap, manipulative, unconstructive ... oh, I could go on.

You are the one who posted a racist, sexist joke on this site. You are answerable for its existance here. You are the one who broke babble policy. You.

... and don't even bother starting in on how us feminists have double standards, because "we're" allowing Michelle to be racist and sexist at the same time that "we" are telling sensitive men that they should challenge their racist and sexist brethren's attitudes before attacking feminists who don't tear apart anti-male feminists to protect feminism's purity (as defined by you).

We've seen this kind of cheap, idiotic stunt before. And we've seen how the people who insist on using it get banned.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 03 March 2003 03:39 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You seem to have missed the point, Magoo.

Actually this wasn't intended as a response to your post, although I did attempt twice to respond directly & found I couldn't articulate myself clearly enough and abandoned them.

I agree with you that we all have the responsibility to challenge sexism (and racism, and ___-ism) when we can and how we can, but I'm not sure I agree that challenging male sexism is specifically more men's job and challenging female sexism is specifically more women's job.

And I'm quite on the fence as regards anti-male and anti-female sentiment in the world; I'd say it's a lot more even than you think. My wife and I love to play a game of pointing out the hidden agression in television commercials. It's in about 60% of the commercials that have both a man and a woman in them, and it's about 50/50 anti-man or anti-woman. The nature of each is different (men are more likely to be portrayed as bumbling, subservient or unattractive) and women are more likely to be objectified, but clearly there's someone out there who wants to encourage a "battle of the sexes" to increase the bottom line.

quote:
So clean up your own gender before coming in here and whining about how tough on you the women are.

What makes you think these men are any more likely to listen to me than to you? I certainly don't have to, nor will I, humour, support, condone or help them, but I'm not in a particularly priveleged position to change them either.

quote:
There is nothing constructive or productive about such an "experiment"

I disagree. "Sexism" is often defined by context. If you heard a bunch of men telling that joke and laughing, you'd probably regard it as quite repugnant. If I were present too, and having claimed to be a progressive man, you might wonder why I don't step in and protest, and may even regard my silence as "locker room" complicity with the joke. But when it's a woman who's propagating the joke, it's interpreted differently. I think that's worthy of discussion. Worthy enough to ruffle a few feathers for all of about 10 minutes at any rate.

Anyway, I'm sure this has made me as popular here as bacon breath at a PETA meeting, but my apologies anyway. If Audra wishes to put me on warning, she can.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 03 March 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the go-ahead on that, Magoo.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 03 March 2003 04:07 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But when it's a woman who's propagating the joke, it's interpreted differently. I think that's worthy of discussion. Worthy enough to ruffle a few feathers for all of about 10 minutes at any rate.

That's not really your decision to make in this area of babble. Social experiments that involve outting a fellow posters personal sense of humour isn't up to you either.

Apology or not, who are you to come in here and set it up so you can question how feminist we are? Or how we go about relating to each other as feminists. The joke was bad, but what is worse is you attempting to set us up. I don't want you banned, I just want you out of the Feminism threads if you can't behave.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 03 March 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thanks for the go-ahead on that, Magoo.

If I were giving you permission, I'd properly say "she may". I was merely pointing out something you already know: you can.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2946

posted 03 March 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, back on topic. I have a friend who is a classic 1950's housewife type. She and her husband fall into all of the stereotypical roles quite nicely. She cleans and cooks, he makes the financial decisions, he drives both their cars, etc. It is sad. But worse because I know why she is like this. She grew up in a very oppressive household under the same conditions between her mother and father. She grew up in a small town with limited social education and never attended any real schooling afterward where such things can be picked up. And the worst part is now they're having a baby who will learn the same behaviour from his/her parents.

It's a really sad cycle with a microscopic dilution rate.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 03 March 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Social experiments that involve outting a fellow posters personal sense of humour isn't up to you either.

I didn't "out" anyone... it's on a website visible to the whole world. And as the thread, rightly or wrongly, had already turned to challenging sexism when we see it, it seemed a good way to see exactly how much context matters in deciding what's acceptable and what isn't, without any hypothetical situations and the inevitable disagreement about what would actually happen.

quote:
Apology or not, who are you to come in here and set it up so you can question how feminist we are?

I don't think I've called anyone's feminism into question in any real way - not even Michelle's. If, on the other hand, you reacted any differently to that joke when you thought it was a man telling it, then I may have called your consistency into question. That's valid. And no, I'm not trying to tell you how to be a feminist, and no, I'm not trying to single-handedly derail feminism, nor destroy this sub-board.

quote:
The joke was bad, but what is worse is you attempting to set us up.

It certainly wasn't so that I could crow about it afterward. It's one of those cases where I could say "I think people often refer to speech as sexist because of who says it, not what was said", and be met with disbelief, or be told that a hypothetical 'hunch' means nothing. The only way to demonstrate such a principle is to show it.

quote:
I don't want you banned, I just want you out of the Feminism threads if you can't behave.

Well, as much as it might look otherwise, I do try to behave. At the same time I'm interested in challenging assumptions and dogmas... so this may be perceived as just "challenging", and possibly even "disruptive" but I can assure you I have no intention of heckling on this or any other board.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448

posted 03 March 2003 07:32 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What makes you think these men are any more likely to listen to me than to you? I certainly don't have to, nor will I, humour, support, condone or help them, but I'm not in a particularly priveleged position to change them either.

And for the most part, I'd agree with you. However, if that is the case, why, then, would you assume that an equity feminist is in any better position to change a gender feminist's point of view?

If you are going to suggest that "moderate" feminists cease to tolerate "radical" feminist viewpoints, you have to also advocate that "non-chauvinist" males cease to tolerate the "chauvinist" male viewpoint. Wouldn't that be, shall we say, equitable?

Or perhaps one could simply point out that our reaction to "radical" feminist viewpoints is no better or worse (oh, hey, we could say equitable here, too!) than the reactions of men to other men's sexist comments and points of view.

[ 03 March 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
debbied
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3754

posted 03 March 2003 09:46 PM      Profile for debbied     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's see... a racist joke from an implied man of colour with "good race politics", anti-feminist rants from implied pro-feminist/interested in feminists/feminism men... hmmm?!

Thanks for the back to reality posts from some of my sisters (and brothers?)

BTW I like beautiful, unusual flowers on my birthday (when I"m queen), some of my best friends are men (!), I support and crave (sometimes) women only spaces and I call my woman my wife. What does that make me??

I also vote for warning mr magoo


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 04 March 2003 12:54 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I also vote for warning mr magoo

Hehe. This isn't "Survivor: Babble".

quote:
However, if that is the case, why, then, would you assume that an equity feminist is in any better position to change a gender feminist's point of view?

You aren't, nor am I. I only suggested (and I'll concede that I lack 'hard numbers' to back this up) that many moderate feminists are very welcoming to radical feminists. To tie all of this back to where I came in, someone in the thread was discussing why it is that many young women today, as well as men, don't wish to label themselves as "feminist", and I'm suggesting that "feminism" (if we can even discuss such an entity) is maybe a little too accepting of these "alternative points of view" to be appealing to people who have no place in them.

It's the difference between active (confronting bad ideas, taking an in-your-face stand, making awkward social moments if needs be) and passive (not helping, not encouraging, not validating).

quote:
Wouldn't that be, shall we say, equitable?

Of course. Interesting difference though: moderate feminists outnumber the radicals, but I'm not sure "feminist" men outnumber the louts. In fact I doubt it. It's still gotta be done mind you, but as a guy you know you aren't going to get much support from the guy in the "Bikini Inspector" shirt.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 04 March 2003 10:15 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Surely this must be at almost 100 posts by now?
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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