The Georgia Straight

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

Dishonest, because I witnessed this demo myself:

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On July 22, at a Toronto rally sponsored by the Canadian Peace Alliance, there were Hezbollah flags, strapping young men in Hezbollah T-shirts, Nasrallah’s fat, stupid face in placard-sized photographs, and pictures of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier and lyncher of homosexuals.

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I didn't see any if the things in this decription. I was there only a few minutes, so might have missed something.

But I am SURE that those who make the claims have photographic evidence! Lots of people were standing around, taking pictures. And those making the claims would want to SEE the evidence themselves, before just regurgitating others' claims.

So, let's see the pictures of "the left" in support of Ahmadinejad.

Let's see all those Hezbollah t-shirts.

Does anyone(other than Jeff's eyewitness account) have any sources which either confirm or rebut the charges made in the article?

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

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Originally posted by ohara:
This is much more in tune with the left I have always known and respected.

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

This reads like one of Larry Zolf's columns where he longs for the good old days when the left was Zionist.

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Yeah - and the good old days before zionism was fascist.

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]

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Originally posted by melovesproles:
Glavin has been writing columns in the straight about how the Canadian left needs to support the ouster of Aristide from Haiti, support Canada joining Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan, and condemn CUPE for its position on Palestine for over a year now, thats just since I have been following. I dont know too much about him, except that he has written some local history and seems more sympathetic to native land claims and related issues then your average rightwinger.

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"But this isn't about peace at all - peace is just code for opposing Israel. This is about war."

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Originally posted by ohara:
It really seems to hurt when a true progressive actually opines in a way that supports Israel.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
But I am SURE that those who make the claims have photographic evidence! Lots of people were standing around, taking pictures. And those making the claims would want to SEE the evidence themselves, before just regurgitating others' claims.

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From CTV News website CTV News Sunday July 30, 2006

In the article posted online I found this sentence.

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In Toronto, where 800 people gathered, one person shouted pro-militant slogans, including "Long live Hezbollah."

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One person does not make an entire rally.

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:
So, let's see the pictures of "the left" in support of Ahmadinejad.

Let's see all those Hezbollah t-shirts.

Show us this isn't just rancid political lying.

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And (to make it clear that these pictures are from Toronto):

ß8a range's photos

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: Free_Radical ]

the misrepresentation of the rallies by taking a few pictures of this particular, small minority in attendance and focusing only on that is about as unfair as using the views of supporters of the Kach party or Kahane Chai or the Jewish Defense League to represent all Jewry.

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: zizou ]

Israel is guilty of war crimes and the only force in Lebanon that is able to resist this juggernaut of death is Hezbollah. Israel invented Hezbollah by the invasion and occupation of 1982 and subsequent atrocities. I'm not surprised to see expressions of support for them in an anti-war rally.

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: zizou ]

The vast majority were holding the standard Toronto Coalition to Stop the War signs, or Palestinian, Canadian, and Lebanese flags.

These photos were much, much more representative of the rally, which I was at from beginning to nearly the end, along with 5,000 or more other people.

http://www.november16coalition.ca/Photo%20Gallery/2006%20Toronto%20Rally/Shame %20on%20HArper.jpg

http://www.november16coalition.ca/Photo%20Gallery/2006%20Toronto%20Rally/The%20pe ople%202.jpg

Another picture

The only "face" in wide evidence was Stephen Harper's on the Toronto Coalition to Stop the War picket signs, which read "Stephen Harper: War Monger."

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: Brendan Stone ]

I have always loved estimates for the crowd. CTV states 800 in the story linked above. Brendan states 5000.

I have always wondered how we actually count a crowd in an outdoor no seat venue

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: Brendan Stone ]

I don't have a problem with Hezbollah flags and imagery at a rally. That said, I'm not up on the details of their ideology.

But it seems a clear case can be made that they are the political voice of a significant part of the population of south Lebanon and deserve some sort of recognition, and should at the very least be treated with...to let them present their story and judge it on its own grounds. I don't, for example, see the point of hysterical responses at the mere sight of a flag or a picture of a local leader about whom, once again, I know next to nothing.

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I don't, for example, see the point of hysterical responses at the mere sight of a flag or a picture of a local leader about whom, once again, I know next to nothing.

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His personal views are the least of my concern, the photos taken at the Montreal Demo are the issue and my greatest concern as they are truly reprehensible.

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But certainly not commensurate to the shock and repulsion people of conscience feel in the face of the indiscriminate and criminal actions Israel is undertaking behind a fanfare of propaganda, half-truths and flat lies.

Hezbollah declared their willingness for a ceasefire. But blood thirsty Israel ddoes not want that. The criminal gang administring Israel are displaying a callous disregard to both Israeli and Arab lives.

Mirroiring to the Israeli people the "elimination" of Hezbollah and peace forever.
As if that is going to happen !!! What is sure happening is more Israeli and Arab killings, maiming and destruction and when all ends Hezbollah will be still there, stronger than ever.

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]

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The Tikkun Community of Toronto
http://tikkuntoronto.com

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 1, 2006
Contact: Avi Zer-Aviv, 416-971-5540

STOP THE BLOODBATH IN LEBANON, ISRAEL AND PALESTINE

We are deeply saddened and troubled by the current state of affairs in Lebanon, Israel and the Occupied Territories. In the name of humanity, we see this bloodbath as a grave tragedy that is being shouldered by ordinary civilians on all sides.

(1) We recognize that all forms of military and violent solutions are bound to fail, and will not work to achieve any positive ends in Lebanon, Israel and the Occupied Territories.

We unequivocally condemn all forms of violent engagement in this current conflict, be they Israeli, Lebanese or Palestinian.

(2) We call for an immediate ceasefire on all sides, without condition, and a UN-led peacekeeping force to be deployed immediately to maintain this ceasefire along the border between Lebanon and Israel.

We urge Israel, as the superior military power, to take the lead in ending this crisis. We urge the international community to place the highest priority on achieving an immediate ceasefire.

(3) We call on all parties to use all diplomatic means available to resolve this crisis, with an emphasis on negotiations and dialogue.

We strongly support the numerous voices in Lebanon, Israel and Palestine calling for an end to the violence and a negotiated settlement.

We also urge the international community to place the highest priority on contributing toward a negotiated settlement to the current crisis in Lebanon, Israel and the Occupied Territories.

In the name of peace and healing, we dedicate ourselves to a world vision of cooperation and justice.

Sincerely,

Tikkun Community of Toronto

Tikkun Toronto is a community inspired by a diversity of spiritual and social justice traditions and committed to Tikkun Olam, a Jewish belief in healing and transforming the world and ourselves.

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"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief.

Do justly, now.
Love mercy, now.
Walk humbly, now.

You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

The Talmud

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Thanks for posting those pictures, Brendan. I think they put the situation in a more accurate light.

As to crowd size estimates at protest, I think a good rule is to assume the crowd is somewhere between 2/3 higher than the police estimate and 1/3 lower than the organizer estimate. In that midrange most likely lies the true figure.

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[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Hawkins ]

In a moment of irony, shortly after the MC denounced the police management for engaging in civil rights violations of the Arab and Moslem community, a young woman standing about 3 feet from me, was in some kind of medical distress and appeared to have fainted or have a seizure.

Since we were behind a barrier, her friends couldn't easily extricate her. We waved over a Toronto officer who lifted the woman over the barrier and carried her in his arms to assistance. Of course he was just doing his job, but it still held some kind of symbolic importance that I haven't quite figured out.

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Polunatic2 ]

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Polunatic2 ]

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Originally posted by Polunatic2:
I did not see any swastikas at the Toronto rally. Nor have I heard that analogy made by the Palestinian community which has focussed its political line on "Israeli apartheid" which is what Israel's policy toward the Palestinians is.

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I would reassess your feelings.

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The only thing true about your your crude analogy is that Hezbollah is a creation of Israeli policy and Al Qaeda a creation of the US. Those groups are "blowback" from racist, imperial policies which have killed, de-infrastructured and demonized Arab and Muslim people.

However, Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were former American employees and allies gone renegade. I suppose you were OK with them when they were "with us"? Nasrallah on the other hand, never worked for Israel or the Americans.

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Polunatic2 ]

Looking through the photos, what I see are swastikas drawn on top of the Israeli flag.

So, the bearer is condemning Israel for acting like nazis.

Myself, I don't agree that that is true in any useful way, but is certainly is not the same as just carrying a swastika flag as a symbol of support.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Does anyone here fell that the marshall's were correct in permitting the swastika and the terrorist flags?

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Originally posted by jeff house:
It is interesting that the claim is made that there were "swastika flags" at the march.

Looking through the photos, what I see are swastikas drawn on top of the Israeli flag.

So, the bearer is condemning Israel for acting like nazis.

Myself, I don't agree that that is true in any useful way, but is certainly is not the same as just carrying a swastika flag as a symbol of support.

It is sad that people feel the need to misrepresent the opposition to the invasion/bombing of Lebanon. I guess they have no case, otherwise.

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[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

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Of course, at this moment, a lot of innocent people in south Lebanon and the survivors of those massacred at Qana see the Israeli flag as a terrorist flag at this moment.

The tactics that Olmert is using here are rapidly approaching the definition of insanity.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

Anyhow, just out of curiosity, ohara, how do you figure the marshalls could have forced the protesters with offensive signs to leave the parade? Should they have taken them into custody? Or maybe led them away in handcuffs? How do you know that some protesters DIDN'T tell the ones holding up offensive signs that it was offensive? I've heard stories on babble before of progressive protesters confronting the odd yahoo at a rally and telling them that something they're chanting is inappropriate.

In any case, I would also feel extremely uncomfortable around people stupid enough to hold up signs with the Iranian president on it, or leaders of armed resistance groups. I'm not sure I'd have had the courage to say anything about it, but I also agree that holding up pictures of nasty people like that at a peace rally is not helpful, and I wouldn't have wanted to be associated with that had I been there (which I wasn't). I have no idea what could or even should be done about that sort of thing, considering that it's not illegal for them to be there.

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Originally posted by S1m0n:
Surely your objection should be to Israel, which is doing so much to blur the distinction between itself and fascism.

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But as you appear incapable of distinguishing between a swastica used for editorial effect and one used to promote nazism, I suppose I can't really expect clear thought.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
What do you mean by "terrorist flags"? Lebanese flags? Palestinian flags? I don't really understand.

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Anyhow, just out of curiosity, ohara, how do you figure the marshalls could have forced the protesters with offensive signs to leave the parade?

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Perhaps from now on I should paint all Jewish zionists, including you, as Kahane supporters. You know, just to be fair.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Before you get on your high horse Michelle, perhaps you can point out when and where Kahane signs have been seen at any pro-Israel rally sponsored by a legitimate Jewish group in Canada. I wont hold my breath waiting.

Its just this kind of biased accusations that piss off many in the Jewish community and for damn good reason.

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I'm not saying there were. I'm just saying that you can't paint all protesters at an open-air protest where anyone could show up and attend with the same brush as the few who show up with stupid signs.

But you're right, it was a flawed analogy for that reason. Sorry about that.

How do you know that the marshalls didn't "just ask"? How do you know that other protesters didn't say something to them? Again, I've heard stories on babble where protesters chanting anti-semitic or otherwise inappropriate slogans were confronted by other protesters and called on it. Are you sure that didn't happen in this case?

Anyone can show up at a street protest. (Including agent provocateurs, although I think it's probably unlikely that this was the case.) How do you figure anyone could force anyone else to leave the street?

I think likely what happened is that more than a few people felt like Polunatic, but didn't say anything because they figured that a) they couldn't enforce it, and b) they were concentrating on their own message, and not there to correct other people. That's how I probably would have seen it if I'd been there. (And I have been at street protests where a sign or someone's speech struck me as incredibly dumb. My reaction would usually be to just roll my eyes and wait for the next speech.)

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

I do recall right-wing settler protests against the 1990's Israeli peace protests that featured pictures of Zionist hero Yitzhak Rabin in a Nazi uniform with a Hitler moustache.

And of course, the guy who assassainated Rabin is considered a hero by a number of settlers, as is Baruch Goldstein, the man who killed innocent Palestians in a mosque.

And that Gala Dayan, the daughter of Moshe Dayan himself, was often called "Arafat's whore" for rejecting the Likudnik "peace through crushing the Palestinians" strategy.

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Originally posted by astrocreep2000:
Judeoscope

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Originally posted by astrocreep2000:
Judeoscope

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I watched this video. What is it?

Someone walking by shoves a person on the sidwalk. It is not clear the person doing the shoving is in the parade, and in fact they continue walking and are not filmed entering the parade.

Too me it rather looks like a person wlking by agressively shoved someone from the parade, but I can't tell that from the video.

As a consequence of this action, a couple of individuals seem to move off to confront the person (one is clearly in the parade as he is waering a Lebanese flag as a cape. These individuals are warned off by the parade marshalls who make it clear no one is to go near the action.

Or that is the way it appears. Hard to tell from the clip.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by ohara:
Not at all. However I have been to pro-Israel rallies sponsored by the Canadian Jewish Congress where some right wing loonies showed up with rather offensive signs. The CJC marshalls asked them to either put their signs away or leave. They left.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Are you sure that the people holding up signs of the Iranian president were members of a legitimate Canadian peace group?

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Originally posted by ohara:
Not at all. However I have been to pro-Israel rallies sponsored by the Canadian Jewish Congress where some right wing loonies showed up with rather offensive signs. The CJC marshalls asked them to either put their signs away or leave. They left.

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This has come up at Ottawa peace rallies. There were a couple of male teenagers who came to anti-Iraq invasion rallies in 2003 with things like scrawled swastikas on the British flag and a version of the US flag with the stars replaced with magen davids (Jewish 6 sided stars as on the Israeli flag).

We have no marshals, just volunteers with no authority but we did ask the boys to put away the flags. They claimed not to understand English but we had limited success when an Arabic speaking authority figure explained why the flags were offensive and/or unhelpful. We have no ability to dictate what signs people hold on public streets nor to tell anyone to do anything. Presumably the "right wing loonies" could have cited the charter of rights to the CJC marshals and stayed with their signs on public property.

Anyone who volunteers at such a event gets a sense of how the vast majority of attendees feel, the challenges of organizing events open to public where thousands of diverse people (many very angry) attend, and the absurdity of holding a movement to task for every indvidual sign.

At the big anti-Bush visit rally in November 2004, some (different) teenaged males (I do not know if they were "right wing loonies") showed up with pro-Bush signs! No one expected the organizers to do anything about this.

I too find pro-Hezbollah banners disturbing. However, it's completely expected (including of course by Israeli decision makers) that when Israel bombs Lebanese communities and infrastructure and Hezbollah are the only ones shooting back that naturally this will increase Hezbollah's popularity in certain quarters. I've also seen mainstream TV news stories about how Hezbollah is a leading provider of care to the refugees created by the invasion so Hezbollah's standing with the victims increases on both fronts.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Paul Gross ]

Really, the signs in this case are a straw man. They obviously don't represent the majority feeling in the march, nor do they discredit the march itself.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
The organizers of the rally could also approach the media and make it clear that they 100% dissociate themselves from these agents provocateurs who are hijacking the march into a pro-Iranian fascism fiesta.

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But of course you weren't there. You prefer to sit at home and offer gratuitous advice on how these protests ought to be organized.

The International Socialists, one of the core anti-war groups, actually supports Hezbollah as a resistance movement but not as an Islamist movement. Their logic is that Hezbollah (and Hamas) are leading the resistance to Israeli aggression and provocations and should be supported as they are by many in the Mid-East.

I don't particularly agree with their position but there is a certain logic to it. It's easy enough to say "a pox on both your houses". But in the real world, it's not so simple.

There was an excellent piece on the blog Rational Reasons called Lessons from History

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60 years ago, a group fighting for its people committed horrific atrocities against the British "occupier" and the Arab community in Palestine. These people, many considered heros in Isreal and around the world, acted exactly as the leadership of Fatah, Hamas and even Hezbollah are acting today. Yet it was this very leader, Menachem Begin, that signed the first peace deal with an Arab state in 1979 and started the first real efforts to bring peace to the region...

Had the British acted in 1946 as the Isrealis are acting today, there would be no Isreal, only a history of more bloodshed and death. Yet the British continued with efforts to secure the peace, rather than sink into more violence.

The lesson is that today's terrorist can be tomorrow's statesman if given the opportunity and a fair shake. Peace cannot happen otherwise.

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i have been attending the rallies. yes, to be fair, there is a small minority who hold up pictures of ahmedinejad or nasrullah. but to say they represent the whole or the majority is blatantly false. the vast majority of marchers were not doing so.

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Accepting your premise that this 'small minority' is unrepresentative, why do you allow them in your midst? You know that they are misogynist, hate homosexuals, are anti-democratic and espouse violence - all things that the left supposedly abhors.

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as we all know, Israel is indiscriminately slaughtering children, and making use of phosphorus, chemical and depleted uranium weapons on civilians.

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ISRAELI WAR CRIMES
ISRAELI WAR CRIMES
ISRAELI WAR CRIMES

Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Lebanese Red Cross, numerous UN bodies, etc., etc., can all be consulted on the facts.

Do your own homework. The only weapon whose use I've not read evidence about is the depleted uranium weapons; but a special RUSH shipment, is ON THE WAY from the good old USA. That's an easy one to confirm. Furthermore, there's still plenty of time for the fake democracy of Israel to spread radioactive waste all over the Lebanese countryside.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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The International Socialists, one of the core anti-war groups, actually supports Hezbollah as a resistance movement but not as an Islamist movement. Their logic is that Hezbollah (and Hamas) are leading the resistance to Israeli aggression and provocations and should be supported as they are by many in the Mid-East.

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Boy the International Socialists are even more harebrained than I thought. You can't have it both ways and claim to support Hezbollah as a resistence movement but NOT as an Islamist movement. Hezbollah IS an Islamist movement that is almost entirely funded and controlled by Iran. I can assure you that the kind fo society they envision is light years away from anything "socialist". unless of course the International Socialist want the take the world back to the 13th century!

Israel pretends that it can annihilate Hezbollah when it is clear as day that, if Israel keeps on with its current rampage, what will be annihilated is Lebanon.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

In fact, they figured in a good piece that The
Onion, which was listing the "Top 5 protest signs at the antiwar demo"

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The numbers in regard to general Lebanese support for Hezbollah are astounding. I think it is up to 90%, or close to it.

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However, a very simple search shows that a huge sea change of public opinion towards Hezbollah has taken place in Lebanon.

There is Dahr Jamail at AntiWar.com:

Hezbollah gaining support ...

Then again, there's the Voice of America, which I'm sure will be a favourite with the smooth Israeli apologist of today...

Support for Hezb increasing, etc.

Or there is ....

Hezbollah gains strength with each dropped bomb.

Hezbollah is making big gains in Lebanese public opinion thanks to their resistance to the Israeli invasion and bombing. This is being observed and predicted by all sides. Somewhere out there is a survey with sizable numbers that substantiate that claim further.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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You can't have it both ways and claim to support Hezbollah as a resistence movement but NOT as an Islamist movement. Hezbollah IS an Islamist movement that is almost entirely funded and controlled by Iran.

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That is very incorrect... Hizbollah draws much of it's support from non islamic fundamentalist groups. The first suicide bombers on the battle field were not islamic fundalmentalists, they were citizens from any faith (admitadely mostly Shi'a, but not all) that signed up to defend their country with the only weapons available to them.

This was linked in one of the Lebanon threads (#4)

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As for Hezbollah, U.S. political scientist Robert Pape found that a large majority of its suicide bombers were not Islamic fundamentalists but Lebanese nationalists who enlisted under Hezbollah to fight the Israeli occupation. Hezbollah is constrained by this constituency, which is now even larger.

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You treat Hizbollah like it's Al Qaeda... A tiny group of people committed to terror living in caves. Hizbollah is not even close to such a thing... Please Stockholm, take some time to atleast know the enemy your keep assaulting on this board. The lies your spreading are becoming tiresome. They are a group of people... Over 400k people, and Hizbollah represent these people in a Democratically elected Gov't. They are social programs first a front to their military activities. The mainstay of Lebanese refugees are receiving aid from Hizbollah (not UN... UNless the refugee made it to syria, then that person is receiving Syrian aid), and from this their support grows. It's this movement that defines Hizbollah, and it's why they continue to gain support as this conflict continues... This support coming from more groups than those that fit under your Islamic movement group. (If you lookup information on Pape, you'll see that a good number of Hizbollah 'Islamic Fundamentalists' that blew themselves up in 1983... Were Christian and other religions from the area). Hizbollah is a resistance movement first and foremost.

The Israeli admit above as well... They've declared the entire population of Southern Lebanon terrorists. Which is valid I guess, if you consider the mainstay of southern Lebanon voted for Hizbollah.

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Given that Hezbollah has launched something like 3,000 missiles at Israel and caused the entire northern third of the country to be evacuated - I guess that makes northern Israel an Iranian colony too.

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So you know (and it's why the Israeli have had the problems they've had so far), the mainstay of these rockets have been fired by Hizbollah citizens, otherwise referred to as Village fighters or Village reserves. Think of them as town militias. Hey, when you're destroying a nation like Israel is, you're bound to have to fight it's civilians that stand up and fight back. In cities like Tyre, you can go into civilian homes and find weapon stashes that they are voluntarily storing for those who fight to free them.

That missile barrage number hasn't left off... Nor will it anytime soon. Hizbollah has managed to increase the frequency of it's attacks, not decrease. Using the village reserves... This would mean more and more Lebanese citizens (Hizbollah supporters or not) are supporting the militia style tactics.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

Forty years ago it was socialism. Twenty years ago pan-arabism. This generation its islamism.

The ~isms come and go, proving that they're not an intrinsic part of the problem.

The problem is the colonial reality--that's the part that hasn't changed for more than a century, and that's the real source of grievance.

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Some might also wonder why Hizbollah even has any missiles goiven that their one and only raison d'etre was SUPPOSED to be to get Israel out of southern Lebanon. That was accomplished in 2000 and from that point on there was absolutely no reason for Hizbollah to exist as any other than a social services organzation, but somehow they found the time and money to buy and plant 10,000 missiles all aimed at Israel. What a total waste of money. All they had to do was take YES for an answer where Israel pulled out in 2000 and all could be hunky-dory right now.

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Israel didn't fully pull out back then... But thats aside to the point.

Why does Hizbollah have no right to do above, when Israel has 20x the bombs and missiles (including nuclear warheads) pointed at Lebanon? Do you subscribe to the American style politics of "We'll point a gun at you and as long as you don't point one back, everything is fine?" then? Why is it completely OK for Israel to do this and not Hizbollah?

Reversely, instead of leaving this as just critisims, wouldn't it be a step of good faith for both the Israeli AND the Hizbollah to take steps to disarm?

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Incidentally, its worth noting that Israel has a huge peace movement and that when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, hundreds of thousands of Israelis protested etc... But not this time. Apparently there is almost unaimous support for the current actions in Lebanon and even the most leftwing pacifist elements in Isreali society who have typically opposed their own governments policies every step of the way are almost unanimously in favour of what is being done this time.

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Incidentally it's worth noting that the majority of Americans thought Al Qaeda and Iraq was the same thing and the invasion of Iraq was in response to the 9/11 tactics. This proves the media is doing a much better job if anything else.

It's ironic to note that the popular opinion (can find links if you really want, but I beleive above has done it justice) in Lebanon has shifted from blaming Hizbollah for getting them into this towards forming a united front vs Israel.

So when both sides support their fighters, does that make one of them mroe right than the other? Still finding ways to morally justify this?

Added to echo S1mon's elegant line:

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Solve it and all the ~isms go away. Ignore it, and another ~ism will be along in another decade or so; each one more radical than the last.

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Israel destroyed Lebanon and the PLO once... This time they'll destory Lebanon and the Hizbollah. Bets on which resistance cell becomes the next popularist movement to kick out the Israeli agressors this time?

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

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Why does Hizbollah have no right to do above, when Israel has 20x the bombs and missiles (including nuclear warheads) pointed at Lebanon?

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The last thing Israel wants is to incur the financial and human cost of occupying any part of Lebanon - they have been down that road before.

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The problem is, like yours, they don't seem to understand the enemy they are fighting. They are continually looped up in justifying the immoral acts the beleive they have been forced to commit.

To make matters worse, Israel is resorting to tactics that make resistance movements stronger. Very recently, we have seen the shift within Lebanon to pro-Hizbollah and a sense of unity vs a common enemy - Israel. In every sense, this is the last path Israel wanted to walk... With every bomb that hits a civilian, you've made countless relatives of that civilian willing recruits for Hizbollah.

For a first hand example... If you bomb the apartment my brother lived in and told me some crap story about Hizbollah using him as a human shield, I'd most likely join the Hizbollah to fight those that caused my loss. Perhaps you're different, perhaps a good portion of the Lebanese citizens are different, but all you need is for 2 people for every civilian killed to make this step, and the Hizbollah will have garnered a few thousand more willing civilians.

And in the future sense... So when Israel withdraws and leaves Southern Lebanon a smoldering wasteland, what then? It was this exact same condition that gave rise to the Hizbollah in the first place. So heres the deal... Lets do the same tactics and this time it won't happen again!!! How can you possibly defend that? Even if you view Israel as in the right defending it's right to exist/putting down a movement that desires only to eliminate them... How can you possibly defend these tactics when we've watched them fail time and time again?

eddited in:
Those 2k civilian 'village reserves' are likely what are firing off the countless number of rockets from these houses. There was a really good example used a bit back... The first 10 days you see the same civilian walking by carrying food to his house. The eleventh day you look at him, he's holding a rocket and firing it at you. The Hizbollah aren't some terrorist group... Plz consider this point at very least. They are civilians that are driven to this war. The actual Hizbollah fighters have been in combat ~ 3 times (3 times verifiable, there may be more). The rest have been civilians, not much different than you or me, that are firing these rockets.

All morales/justification aside... Can you see how doomed the current invasion strategy is?

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm

Because Hizbollah has never made any secret of the fact their goal is to wipe Israel off the map, therefore any weapons they have are only there for offensive reasons. Isreal on the other hand has no interest at all in eliminating the entire Arab world.

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But Israel is an expansionist state. It never defined its final borders and most likely will never do ?

Should we compare military track records instead? How about comparing the billions in weapons provide by the US to what Iran contributes? I'm not saying Iran's contribution is justified... It should be 0... And so should the Americans contriubtions. How bout you track it on popular opinion of the area? That'd be an interesting question for someone in Beirut... Who do you have the more faveorable opinion of: Iran (who supplies Hizbollah with arms, who dragged the nation into this war), or the USofA (when you know fully the warheads, bombs, fighters, and tanks are provided by them). I'd be curious what the response is

Makes you wonder if US manufacturing companies responding to urgent arm orders aren't making a killin (scuse the pun) from this conflict...

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

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Originally posted by venus_man:
Some would mistakenly compare American and Iranian influences. That is, on my opinion, ignorant. America was and is a beacon of freedom for hundreds of thousands of immigrants. It is the democratic state, a place where citizens can freely criticize the government and be whoever they want to be-all paths are open.

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Unfortuately Americans still see themselves as morally superior to others but that is always the way with imperial powers.

Just so you understand why I say this I will name a few countries that have felt the American beacon: Guatemala, Iran, Chile. All these countries had democratic elections and then those governments were overthrown by US backed dictators. Quite the beacon of freedom for the world.

So tell me how does the School of the Americas fit into your beacon of freedom or Guantanamo Bay?

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"The corporate revolution will collapse if we refuse to buy what they are selling... their ideas, their version of history, their wars, their weapons, their notion of inevitability.
Remember this: We are many and they are few. They need us more than we need them.
Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.
Arundhati Roy"

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
America has not been a beacon of freedom for a very long time.

Unfortuately Americans still see themselves as morally superior to others but that is always the way with imperial powers.

Just so you understand why I say this I will name a few countries that have felt the American beacon: Guatemala, Iran, Chile. All these countries had democratic elections and then those governments were overthrown by US backed dictators. Quite the beacon of freedom for the world.

So tell me how does the School of the Americas fit into your beacon of freedom or Guantanamo Bay?

IMHO your post was patriotic drivel. The US is a corporate, imperialist country that uses borrowed money to fund wars to control other people's resources. Beacon my ass.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

I watched this video. What is it?

Someone walking by shoves a person on the sidwalk. It is not clear the person doing the shoving is in the parade, and in fact they continue walking and are not filmed entering the parade.

Too me it rather looks like a person wlking by agressively shoved someone from the parade, but I can't tell that from the video.

As a consequence of this action, a couple of individuals seem to move off to confront the person (one is clearly in the parade as he is waering a Lebanese flag as a cape. These individuals are warned off by the parade marshalls who make it clear no one is to go near the action.

Or that is the way it appears. Hard to tell from the clip.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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But Israel is an expansionist state. It never defined its final borders and most likely will never do ?

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In 1947 the UN proposed a partition plan that left Israel with only about 60% of pre-1967 Israel. Israel happily accepted accepted that. The Arabs refused and immediately sent hordes of machete waving thugs across the border. They were repulsed and they lost further ground.

Just imagine if the Arabs had accepted the 1947 UN partition, not only would the the Palestinians be in possession of all of what is now referred to as the West bank and Gaza, but Jerusalem would be an international city and major chunks of Galilee would be part of palestine as well.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

In 1947 the UN proposed a partition plan that left Israel with only about 60% of pre-1967 Israel. Israel happily accepted accepted that. The Arabs refused and immediately sent hordes of machete waving thugs across the border. They were repulsed and they lost further ground.

Just imagine if the Arabs had accepted the 1947 UN partition, not only would the the Palestinians be in possession of all of what is now referred to as the West bank and Gaza, but Jerusalem would be an international city and major chunks of Galilee would be part of palestine as well.

But as we know, the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity.

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Israel was not satisfied with the partition scheme, which the leaders of the coalescing country saw as simply one step towards their goal of total domination of Palestine. The Arab leaders were aware of the Zionist intentions, and they reacted accordingly.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=10

“The main Arab (and British) fear before and after the 1948 war was that the Zionist movement would use as a springboard for further expansion the Jewish state carved out of Palestine. In fact, Zionists pursued from early on a ‘stages’ strategy of conquering Palestine by parts - a strategy it would later vilify the Palestinians for. ‘The Zionist vision could not be fulfilled in one fell swoop,’ Ben-Gurion's official biographer reports, ‘especially the transformation of Palestine into a Jewish state. The stage-by-stage approach, dictated by less than favorable circumstances, required the formulation of objectives that appeared to be `concessions.'’ It acquiesced in British and United Nations proposals for the partition of Palestine but only ‘as a stage along the path to greater Zionist implementation’ (Ben-Gurion). Chief among the Zionist leadership's regrets in the aftermath of the 1948 war was its failure to conquer the whole of Palestine.”

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]

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Israel pretends that it can annihilate Hezbollah when it is clear as day that, if Israel keeps on with its current rampage, what will be annihilated is Lebanon.

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Hezbollah is making big gains in Lebanese public opinion thanks to their resistance to the Israeli invasion and bombing.

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The (hopefully) attached image clearly illustrates the craven and cowardly nature of Hiz'bollah - and why Lebanon suffers under them.

If the 'innocent bystanders' shown are part of Hiz'bollah's big gains, then they reap what they sow. As long as Hiz'bollah so criminally interjects it's non-uniformed and illegal combatants amongst the 'civilian' population, the civilian population will suffer.

Second, that's a PALESTINIAN militant, not Hizbollah. But I guess it's easier just to lob all arabs with guns into one undifferentiated mass and say "look, look at the craven, cowardly savages!".

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Say, what are Palestinian militants supposed to do to defend their urban territory from Israeli incursions? The Israelis send troops into, and roll tanks onto, urban Palestinian streets and the Palestinian militants are the ones putting civilians in danger?? Cripes, I don't post often, but sometimes things realy get my goat.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I don't believe that. it is common knowledge that Israel accepted the terms of the UN partition in 1947. If what you say is true then the Arabs should have called Israel's bluff and gone along with the partition and then consolidated the territory instead of defying the UN, declaring a war and being regarded by the whole world as barbaric villains.

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From the linked site

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Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades militant, Palestinians sources said. The army said two Islamic Jihad militants were arrested during the operation

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Besides the obvious 'Hey Dummy, Hizbollah and Al-Aqsa Martyrs are different organizations'... If that pic was infact in Lebanese territory, the other citizens in the pic are also terrorists and are open game for the Israeli military (Any Arab in Southern Lebanon has be told this via leaflets)... So the point you're making is kinda moot at this point in time anyway, the Israeli soldiers have the go ahead to slaughter everyone in that pic, and have been doing so mostly with guided weapons (and bombing the ambulances taking the wounded away^^ Dang terrorist ambulances).

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Like the 'protestors' in Montreal, the Lebanese must reject and eject terrorists from their midst before they place their argument before the court of world opinion.

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The Lebanese have recently become much more united in rejecting the terrorists and ejecting them from their midsts with ~ 90% of them supporting... Kicking the Israeli's out. Makes you wonder who the Lebanese citizens consider terrorists no?

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Stockholm, something to consider (Haven't confirmed anything on here), but here midway down is a chart of the recent attacks on Israel... From yourself:

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Hizbollah send troops into Israel to abduct, they lob missiles at Israeli cities etc...,

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Not sure if I'd take the article for face value (Theres a bias and that may mean a few omissions in the chart)... It's possible the other groups claiming responsibility are just factions controlled by Hizbollah (or Iran) that was working in conjunction as well. But it is something to consider while evaluating Hizbollah.

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

There is only one wee problem. Your analogy doesn't work both ways. For example:

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from Palestinian/Hizbollah incursions?

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Palestinian incursions? On their land that is occupied by Israel? Do you read your own crap?

Ah. Doesn't matter. You aren't exactly open to logic or argument. Might is Right, right?

Enough from you. How about this Israel uber alles supporter:

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If the 'innocent bystanders' shown are part of Hiz'bollah's big gains, then they reap what they sow. As long as Hiz'bollah so criminally interjects it's non-uniformed and illegal combatants amongst the 'civilian' population, the civilian population will suffer.

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So you see nothing wrong with suicide bombings, then? You sick fuck.

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American system stands as an opposition to dictatorships that are so common in many other parts of the world; hence it was and is a beacon of hope and freedom for many.

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